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An Israeli man has been killed and his wife and two children wounded after their car was fired on in the occupied West Bank, the military says. It happened near the Jewish settlement of Otniel. The man was killed when the car overturned after the attack. Israeli forces are searching for a Palestinian gunman. It is the second fatal attack on an Israeli in the West Bank in two days. On Thursday a 13-year-old girl was killed in her bedroom by a Palestinian. Thirty-five Israelis have now been killed in a wave of knife, gun and car-ramming attacks since October. More than 200 Palestinians - mostly attackers, Israel says - have also been killed in that period. The assailants who have been killed have been shot either by their victims or by security forces as they carried out attacks. Some attackers have been arrested. Palestinian shot dead The victims of Friday's attack were members of the same family. The driver was a father, said to be in his 40s; his wife and two children were taken to hospital for treatment. The shooting happened on Route 60, about nine miles (15km) south of the settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a day earlier teenager Hallel Yaffa Ariel was stabbed to death as she slept. |
Elizabeth Warren defends Israel
Bernie Sanders battles hecklers over Israel
No military in the history of warfare has done more to avoid enemy civilians casualties than has Israel...
Colonel Richard Kemp on Israel tactics in a warzone
Boom. That's exactly the problem Mike is talking about. You don't even understand Golda Meir's post.
Jeeezusfuclingchrist you just don't get it...
Of course I don't think onlyb3 Palestinians have been killed during the current intifada. The ratio of them vs us is always I dunno 10:1?
In every war and subway crisis, something like 10:1. We have the world's greatest army on a per capita basis, the Palestinians attack with knives.
I am the one who posted the data and list of incidents during the current intifada, I am not spewing bullshit I gave solid sources for both sides.
The facts remain, in all acts of war between the Jews and Arabs, one side acts and the other reacts. And one side can't accept losing, so they play the terror game.
Bluelou, ratio of deaths is exponentially higher then 10:1 and in addition to specific death totals, theres palestinians maimed and disfigured by Israeli bombings and raids. That and the overall squalor and humiliation of daily life in the occupied territories so its not just about the death totals.
Of course terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians are horrible, but that is why the occupation needs to end. So long as palestinian youth continue to see there homes demolished, family members killed, and 'settlers' walking in and stealing their land, there will continue to be that minuscule percentage of the population that becomes radicalized. It would be no different then in any other time or part of the world with similiar conditions.
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The palestinian leadership doesnt have the Palestinian people under occupation.
Sure they do. If it wasn't for the Palestinian leadership, there would be no occupation of the disputed territories. The Pals would've had a state long ago. It's their leadership oppressing them and holding them back. Not Israel.
Because they didnt accept that ridiculous State proposal over a decade ago? Anyone that read the details knew it was an unacceptable deal. Do you think the Palestinian authority preferred to be under occupation rather then accepting the proposal and becoming the leaders of a new nation??
So sorry, if this argument holds any water for you, which it comes across as by your post, your clearly have a bone to pick.
They are not still doing it and cutting off their clitorises. See the difference?
However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere.
And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.
Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days.
We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam.
So it's clear to me that criticism of the prophet should not invoke death threats. I don't see how comparing cultural norms regarding free speech has anything to do with my point.
I don't see a lot of people making the argument the US as a concept should be discredited because our founders engaged in activity that would be frowned upon today. I certainly wouldn't.
Trying to discredit Islam as a religion by citing the marriage rituals of 1500 years (many of which were shared by European culture) is pathetic and a poor argument. And says a lot about the selective use of facts.
Hassan- why do you keep comparing other potential concepts and ideology that DOES NOT make CLAIMS OF GOD to kill, maim, suicide-bomb other people ?
See the difference ?
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You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage.
However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere.
And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.
Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days.
We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam.
Please provide data on Muslim marriage to 9 year olds. Thanks.
Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.
Mike in Marin cites Muhammad as a pedophile, blantantly ignoring the marriage norms of the day AND the very history of all hydro christian prophets. For example.
Hassan - I do not claim that other historical figures were OK with raping prepubescent girls...I only claim that it is still happening in Islam and is protected because of some warped belief that religion (specifically Islam, it's the only religion that gets such a free pass) deserves some type of freedom from criticism.
Not in my book. It's the worst ideology that still exists in the world...and even worse, it is supported by the left, regardless of the blood, rape and murder.
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In comment 13019637 hassan said:
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You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage.
However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere.
And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.
Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days.
We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam.
Please provide data on Muslim marriage to 9 year olds. Thanks.
Chris - here's a link. feel free to use google any time you want.
Link - ( New Window )
Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.
Of course I did. Because he was. He made up a religious rule that supported his desires....and still millions of girls around the world suffer because of it.
Why would I bring up others ? Are we discussing the fantasy religious priveledges of Ghengis Khan? And how they are still harming millions of Mongols ?
Your constant changing of the subject and conflation with other historical examples that are not longer relevant in the world, are not helping you.
Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.
That is true. Why are you cherry picking the one thing in Islam that is unfortunately practiced by other ignorant people ?
Let's stick to the topics.
I have answered and responded to all of yours (or almost all).
Israeli has indeed committed evils but they had no choice.
Funny how your an expert of Islam but make no mention of violence or intolerance of judiasm. You basically just mumbled ' we dont follow that stuff' and quickly moved on to more Islam bashing.
Very simply, many Jews believe that they are the chosen people. Thats why many Jews in Israel have no problem with the occupation or brutalization of the palestinians because theyre viewed as subhuman.
Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)
Here are some extremely violent verses in the old testament that Im sure you would NEVER share here because your only an expert on Islam. Not judiasm i know (wink wink)
Deuteronomy 20:10-18 (If the inhabitants of a distant city refuse to surrender into forced labour, then lay siege to the city. After they are defeated, kill all prisoners of war and take the women and children as plunder. As for the inhabitants of a chosen city, they must all die. Women, children, animals, everything, for the victimless crime of simply living in the wrong place)
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced laborand shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Samuel 15:3 NIV)
“They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”? (Joshua 6:21 NIV)
Exodus 22:18-20
Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.
Exodus 31:15
'For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath daymust be put to death.'
Leviticus 20:9
"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death."
Leviticus 20:13 (Kill all homosexuals)
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death."
Leviticus 20:27
"A man or woman who is a spiritist among you must be put to death."
Leviticus 26:14-16,22,25,29-33:
But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.
I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 (Your brother, your children, your wife, or your closest friend must be killed if they commit the victimless crime of suggesting religious exploration)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.
I have addressed this already; NO ONE PRACTICES THE HATRED IN THIS TEXT ANYMORE.
It is virtually completely invalidated as a way for human beings to act, unless it is people practicing Islam.
The people
From
The ideas that inspire and justify the peoples behavior towards other people. Made under the fantasy of it being ok with God or even commanded by him.
How convenient that you leave out why the Palestinians are under 'occupation' in the first place.
That guy is amazing, though somewhat indelicate in his tirades. I fucking love that guy.
But Sam Harris is the master of analyzing the morality and lack thereof in Islam and other religions. I recommend checking him out. I am not an atheist, but he is 100% accurate. and he knows scriptures better than most.
I bring up other cultures, because Islam is practiced multiculturally and often cultural norms (like genital mutilation) apply. This is NOT an Islamic mandate (genetal mutilation). You consider this cultural comparison irelevant but it's fairly important.
You cannot separate the religion from the political economic and cultural context it exists in.
Like I've said? Plenty to critique about Islam and religion and general. But when you make ridiculous smears and are selective and willing to give your side a pass it loses effectiveness. Of course your a Sam Harris fan as I recall and this is his specialty so I'm not surprised...
I bring up other cultures, because Islam is practiced multiculturally and often cultural norms (like genital mutilation) apply. This is NOT an Islamic mandate (genetal mutilation). You consider this cultural comparison irelevant but it's fairly important.
You cannot separate the religion from the political economic and cultural context it exists in.
Like I've said? Plenty to critique about Islam and religion and general. But when you make ridiculous smears and are selective and willing to give your side a pass it loses effectiveness. Of course your a Sam Harris fan as I recall and this is his specialty so I'm not surprised...
You are really grasping at straws, Hassan.
1. I could almost allow your pedophile argument, if it weren't for the fact that
a. Mohammed made up the rule of the religion to allow for it. So he gets the blame.
b. Again, it is still happening in his name.
But let's move on from this relatively benign practice in Islam to intolerance, murder and the enslavement of women.
Is it ok to discuss how Islam is still the only religion that preaches and practices this on a grand scale ?
And is the only religion that promotes suicide bombing ?
How about the wide support for death to homosexuals ?
Are any of these practices built up the beliefs of a man who claims to have ridden a flying horse worthy of criticism ?
I suppose we should all just back off and let the poor Islamists practice their dreadful religion in peace.
Same goes for the Buddhists....We wouldn't want to interrupt their spreading of peace and serenity across the world during the holy month of Meditation....oops...that's right, they don't practice the murdering of sub-humans that do not accept their religion.
The problems with Islamic Fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam.
But then why does Islam get a pass on everything else ?
You (and most others) use the religious freedoms argument when you need it, and then reluctantly blame "political" Islam when you get called to the carpet.
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Reply is well if the terrorists wouldnt attack then Israel wouldnt have to respond militarily. Which brings us back to the chicken and the egg argument yet again. In this case though, its more linear. Palestinians under brutal occupation >>>attack Israel>>> israeli disproportionately responds with military force economic punishmennts, arbitrary arrests etc>>> Palestinians become out raged and attack sporadically in response.
How convenient that you leave out why the Palestinians are under 'occupation' in the first place.
Ding Ding Ding. Because they rejected peace, waged wars they they lost and have been complaining about it ever since.
Thank you for confirming that this is the only argument you have left. I argue all these in a lot more detail with people a lot smarter than you. Usually they just stop responding....but you show your hand and prove that your ideology is indefensible.
No go read a book about morality and try and apply some principles of human well-being to your horrid religious beliefs and excuses you make for it.
BC....a person not smart enough to understand the difference between people and ideology.
You clearly choose not to read my response. Which was its applicability today certainly should be brought into question. The practice of early forced marriage does not apply to Muslim Americans for example. In many cultures (like India for example) early marriage is across the board and Muslims adhere to this as well -there are practical reasons such as economic standing for family why this happens. Your implication is Islam by ideological mandate forced women into early marriage-why is this not happening in the west then? Where it does still happen, well, it's a mark against their society.
As far as mandated murder, the scripture game shows the old and New Testament has plenty of language supporting the same. Yes, jihadists are taking this literally and it's a problem globally. Have I argued otherwise?
We in the west were 73pct in favor of the Iraq war. A complete butcher job nonsense war. Did you support that war Mike?
If people today choose to follow things from thousands of years ago, that's on them, not the origins of the religion.
I wouldn't cast stones at L. Ron Hubbard for writing science fiction, but I sure as hell would mock the idiots who follow Scientology.
Do religious beliefs accepted in Islam cause the same harm as those of other religions ? If not, why ?
Does that include all religions ? Is the Islamic world at all culpable for the bloodshed it causes in the name of Allah, the Prophet and Islam ? Or can all the blame and troubles be laid at the feet of non-Muslims ?
I call "bullshit."
All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints.
I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was.
Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation.
You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs?
Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.
All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints.
I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was.
Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation.
You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs?
Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.
Except that the beliefs are the reason that Islam inspires and justifies suicide bombings, the killing of virtually everyone but devout Muslims and on and on.
Every other religion and ideology/belief system in the history of man has properly been discredited due to conflicts with human well-being.
The results from a human well-being standpoint have been revolutionary and beneficial. Why does Islam get a pass over and over ?
It is the worst of all of them, yet it is summarily protected by the left-leaning intelligentsia, regardless of the damage caused by its' beliefs.
Why do you think that is ?
All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints.
I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was.
Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation.
You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs?
Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.
So I guess it is OK if we go back to burning witches ?
Islam today, which represents a large swath of the poor nations and the losers of globalization, has multiple issues and is going through a humongous political upheaval.
There is nothing more inherently violent about Islamic societies when we consider the amount of violence generated compared to Europe UNTIL recently as of the last 25-50 years. Today YES, it is, for the reasons I
mentioned, along with wrongheaded responses to Israel, without making this a lengthy diatribe.
There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror.
There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.
Islam today, which represents a large swath of the poor nations and the losers of globalization, has multiple issues and is going through a humongous political upheaval.
There is nothing more inherently violent about Islamic societies when we consider the amount of violence generated compared to Europe UNTIL recently as of the last 25-50 years. Today YES, it is, for the reasons I
mentioned, along with wrongheaded responses to Israel, without making this a lengthy diatribe.
I'm not accusing you of anything except defending an ideology that is directly responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people, Muslim and non-Muslim.
You cannot seem to understand the harm caused by beliefs that God says it's OK to kill people in this day and age, because he said so.
A condemnation of some forms of jihad is not enough.
A contextualization of pedophilia in history is not enough.
A tepid attempt to blame "political" Islam is not enough.
Hiding behind "occupation" and sacrificing intellectual honesty and human well-being and universal morality is not enough.
Arguing that Islam gets a pass because of history is not enough.
Anything but acknowledging that this ideology is responsible for 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is not enough.
There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror.
There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.
What about the Christians, Yazidi's and Jews living in the ME. The ones who are being targeted by Isis and other groups. Do you see them committing acts of terror?
So in such a stand-off, who needs to be saved from themselves the most? Who would benefit the most from a two-state solution being forced upon them whether they like it or not? The answer, of course, is the Palestinian people. Which is why I believe the only solution to the crisis is for the international community to step in and negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians an agreement with Israel that will be recogized as legitimate by America, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, and basically as many countries as possible.And then Hamas and Islamic Jihad need to be crushed, assuming they don't lay down their arms willingly.
And then the Palestinian people will finally free, free not of Israel, but of their own corrupt and terrorist leadership. Gaza is not the world's biggest open air prison, it's the world's biggest open air hostage crisis.
There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror.
There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.
Ahhhh, so you actually think that Islam has good reasons for it ?
How many Tibetan buddhist suicide bombers have used the teachings in their religion to attack the Chinese ?