is the best I've seen, though that is certainly not saying he's one of the best football players I've seen (he's not even close to being in the conversation).
If it's about putting it all together, it's hard to argue against Tom Brady here. He's as precise and collected as I've ever seen. Peyton Manning is right behind him, but behind none the less. Disappeared too often when it's mattered most.
No one threw the ball like Marino but I was always a Montana guy. Same with Manning as a pure passer but I would rather have Brady.
I won't put Michael Vick in their class but he was breathtaking when he pulled the ball in and started to run. Plaxico made an eye-opening catches at least once a game but wasn't nearly consistent enough. I need to see Beckham do it for a few more years. he could elbow his way into the conversation though...
my list would have to start with Jim Brown and include GIANTS All-Pro LOT Roosevelt Brown and HB Frank Gifford (for his amazing versatility as a runner, passer, receiver, punter, and place kicker), Brady, Rice, and Colts TE John Mackey.
Barry Sanders and Randy Moss, at the peak of their powers, seemed like they were pushing the limits of what a human could accomplish on a field. Marino was similar in his throwing ability.
From a pure talent standpoint those three were the first to come to mind. But Montana is still the best QB I've seen, and Rice obviously had a better career than Moss.
he's probably the most dominant player in the game today at his position and all said and done will be among the all-time greats if not the the GOAT at this position. rare combo of size, speed, strength, and skill. only injuries can derail him.
I honestly believe OBJ is the best offensive player I've seen Â
I agree with this list for skilled positions (non-QB) These were the cream. The only one that I did not see much was Gifford and yet he was my favorite when I first started watching. Caught many games of Jim Brown. Sayers was special.
Gayle Sayers. No one else has scored 6 TDs in a single game, a record Â
George Adams & Rodney Hampton. Two RBs who were over 225lbs. and had the feet and moves to be incredible if things had gone differently for each guy. So disappointing when guys get worn down so quickly or get hurt, like Jarod Bunch & David Wilson did. I liken Hampton to Hakeem Nicks when it comes to two of my favorite Giants just lighting it up and then fizzling out quickly because of overuse and playing through the nagging injuries.
rather than just seeing highlights (I've never seen a full game with Jim Brown or Gale Sayers; shame on you NFL Network and you piece of crap top 10 lists).
At the top of their game (in no particular order):
Bo Jackson (surprised no one has mentioned him)
Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Peyton Manning
OJ Simpson (great player; massive POS as a person)
Michael Vick (great player; POS as a person)
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
He's better than Tony G? Even if you believe that you think he's a better offensive player than Peyton Manning? Jerry Rice? T
I missed Rice on your list but I could go on and on. Bavarro isnt a top 30 player in NFL history on the offensive side of the ball. Probably not top 100 if we are counting offensive lineman.
I was born in 1989 and can really "remember" football starting in 2001. My list will only contain players from that era.
It's tough to put these guys in order, but here's my list (off the top of my head):
AGAIN... NOT ORDERED (just written down in the number I think of them)
RB:
1) Marshall Faulk
2) Tomlinson
3) Tiki Barber circa 05-07 (yes, I think he is up there with those two)
4) Adrian Peterson
This list is tough, because there are some players who were consistent but IMO never huge gamebreakers (Curtis Martin), players I only vaguely remember from being a child (Sanders), and some who I think may have been good enough if they played in the workhorse era (someone like Jamaal Charles). Some honorable mentions could be Edjerin James, or I guess Shaun Alexander but I thought Alexander was way more a product of his line.
QB:
1) Brady
2) Manning
3) Rodgers
(Brees is not in the echelon these guys are in)
WR:
1) Moss
2) Megatron
3) TO
4) Harrison
Honorable mention to Torry Holt
TE:
1) Gronk
2) Gates
3) Gonzalez
I'm sure I left off some notable omissions. I do think that OBJ, Green, Julio Jones, have a shot to slide into the WR spots on this list.
I was checking some of Pro football reference's all time stat leaders to see how my recollection matched up with reality, and Amani Toomer is #51 on the all time # of receptions list.
Pretty surprising. Other surprises: Marshall at 22, Welker at 20, Donald Driver tied at 40 (with andre rison), Colston at 44, Galloway at 45.
heath Miller at 69 and Greg Olson at 80 are surprising as well.
Tiki ranks at 73 all time, with rushing yards all time in the 20s. I think he absolutely should be a HOF'er... If you go by statistics only, he has a better case than Eli
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
Bavaro is not the best TE to play, not even close. This is pure Giant homerism. If you know it and you're okay with it, fine, that's cool - but if you actually believe that, come on dude.
I never saw them but I'd imagine Kellen Winslow would have something to say about that. Let alone Gonzales, Gates, and GRONK, who probably IS the best TE ever.
Hard to believe that Unitas didn't get a single mention Â
Jimmy Brown is hard to explain. I have never talked to a fan or pro who saw him who didn't think he was clearly the best ever.
You can say he couldn't do it today and I think that's fair, but you have to measure him against his peers, and he was the strongest, biggest and fastest man on the field.
When he retired after only seven years and because of an acting career he owned every single rushing record there was.
Most have been broken, but only because they went from a 12 to sixteen game schedule.
Try to extrapolate........ that means in years when he rushed for 1800 yards in a 12 game season he'd be consistently rushing for 2400 yards in the longer season.
Or put those 1800 yards in this perspective: the runner-up most years was the great Jim Taylor who might have wound up with a thousand yards. That means J.B. was rushing for almost twice the yards as his closest competitor.
Perhaps the only record that was not influenced by the change in 12 to 16 games was his yards per carry. And that record of 5.6 yards per attempt (that's from memory and maybe slightly off) has only been matched by one man and that's a QB (Randall Cunningham).
'Nuff said?
Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Jeremy Shockey, Plaxico Burress, Eli Manning, Larry Fitzgerald, Dan Fouts, Kellen Winslow, Charlie Joyner, Jackie Slater, Jack Younglood, Ray Guy, Marcus Allen, Ted Hendricks
sometime the best players ever isn't the best players YOU have ever seen.....one for me was Fran Tarkington! freaking guy was great when I was a kid ....he was one of the best....for ME....and # 40 for da bears.....hell I loved Bobby Duhon, I lived and died for every shitty yard he gained along with Junior Coffey.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
Bavaro is not the best TE to play, not even close. This is pure Giant homerism. If you know it and you're okay with it, fine, that's cool - but if you actually believe that, come on dude.
I never saw them but I'd imagine Kellen Winslow would have something to say about that. Let alone Gonzales, Gates, and GRONK, who probably IS the best TE ever.
I've watched all those players and Bavaro was better than all of them. Gonzales is the closest. Bavaro just wasn't able to sustain it which is why he is not a hall of fame and some of those others are.
We're the most exceptional
Earl Cambell was a man among boys as was Zonka
Walter Payton O.J. Rigging Eric Dickerson Were an exceptional blend of power speed and grace.
Marshall Faulk and Thurmond Thomas were the best all purpose backs of all time
At WR
Randy Moss was truly the most talented I'd every seen
Calvin Johnson is right there with him.
Jerry Rice greatest work ethic ever
Freddy B always open they named the college football award after him
Lance Alworth poetry is motion
Bo Jackson was an amazing player. Problem with him is not only was his career short, he played short seasons as well, not showing up until baseball season was over.
Bavaro was a better blocker, according to Belichick and I'd take his word over anyone else on the planet on this matter. He says Gronk is close though. But all around TE, Gronkowski is the best I've ever seen.
If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
A few things: Mark Bavaro? Over Ozzie new some and Keller Winslow? Really?!? I argued how overrated Bavaro was here and yes he's a top 10 te historically but cmon already.
Don Hutson? Screw off.
The dominant players on offense in the 60s are Jim brown and Gayle Sayers. Earl Campbell, Kellen W in the 70s, along with Eric d and Walter Peyton in the 80s, Jerry rice, dan Marino and Joe M.
The 90s brought us Moss, Faulk, Owens.
00s brought Calvin, AP, LDT, Brady manning.
10s have brought Beckham ang gronk. Newton may get there too.
Linemen would have to include Munoz, pace, Ogden. Hannah? Please. Mike Webster on the list before him.
Garbage having ditka on that list great player but he's not a top 40 offensive player.
really? because he chose to dance around and not hit the holes? do you remember watching those games? that line was a sieve and he had pete Mitchell and Rodney pete as his QBs. those teams were HORRIBLE. if he was on dallas he would have no joke ran for 3,000 yards per season.
RE: wait you are going to knock barry for negative plays? Â
really? because he chose to dance around and not hit the holes? do you remember watching those games? that line was a sieve and he had pete Mitchell and Rodney pete as his QBs. those teams were HORRIBLE. if he was on dallas he would have no joke ran for 3,000 yards per season.
And he still averaged 5 yards a carry for his career with the negative runs... Sanders and Rice are the two best players I ever seen.
but a Cowboy who should be on this list is Emmett Smith. When he was in his prime, running behind that line, he was an absolute beast. I hated it when we played them in the 90s because I knew he would just kick our asses all over the field.
I only saw Eric Dickerson play a couple of times due to the coastal thing, and he didn't do much in those games. No knock against him; I just never got to see him shine.
When Bo Jackson was healthy, he was a freak of nature. He just tore defenses apart. Earl Campbell was like that, too - although his offensive line was outstanding and should get some credit. And Randy Moss's first three years in the NFL were transformative.
I'm only going 90's and on, since that's all I've seen Â
Barry Sanders was the best runner I've ever seen in open space. Marshall Faulk was the best weapon, since he could line up as a WR and run a route just as good. Having nearly 1400 yards on the ground, 1000 receiving, and 90 receptions is absurd production and versatility. It's actually kind of a shame that the Colts only gave Peyton and Faulk one year together. Not a knock on Edgerrin James, who is also a personal favorite of mine, but Faulk was just scarier weapon. To top it all off, he was like having a coach on the field. I remember one hurry up drill, where the Rams didn't have a timeout to burn, and he picked up Az-Hakim and positioned him where he needed to lineup to get the snap off to spike the ball. That type of stuff puts him above and beyond all the other great RB's that I've seen play.
Only player to average over 100 ypg rushing for his career.
And he could catch, and block when he wanted to.
1963 was amazing: 1863 yards in 14 games. 6.4 ypr. Extrapolated to 16 games, it beats Dickerson's all-time record by 15 yards. And Dickerson averaged "only" 5.6 ypr that year.
And Brown, remember, was a FB. Not a lot of outside breakaways to boost the average.
I'd have to go with Randy Moss at WR. The immediate impact he had on the game changed the way defenses played together. Cris Carter and Jake Reed were already a great duo on their own, but Moss really sent the Vikings passing attack to another level. Critics will pick him apart for his reputation for taking plays off, and rightfully so, but this guy was so good Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, and Daunte Culpepper all had their best passing seasons with him to throw to. You can throw Brady in the mix when they were together in 2007. He headlined the 2 most prolific offenses in NFL history, and that says a lot. Rice had a better career, enjoyed more hardware, but as a weapon to account for, I still think peak Moss gets the nod over peak Rice. Sterling Sharpe, Terrell Owens, Andre Johnson, Michael Irvin, Marvin Harrison are all guys that should get notable mentions.
For the TE position, I think Gronk is the best TE I've ever seen. Shockey had the potential to be up there, but he was in the end, his very worst enemy. The partying and drinking took a toll, and the injuries piled up. Shannon Sharpe, Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, and Jason Witten are all definitely in the conversation. I only really caught Bavaro at the tail end of his career, but I'd throw him in the tier right under the guys I mentioned. I'd lump him in with Ben Coates and Keith Jackson.
As for FB's, even though it's a dying position, If you were to qualify someone as a weapon, you have mention Larry Centers. We are never going to see a FB with those receiving stats again.
RB lists that don't include Brown or Sayers
TE lists that don't include Mackey or Casper
QB lists not referencing Elway...
Although at QB there is a valid argument that both Manning and Brady have left earlier generation QBs in the dust.
Not so with RBs and TEs...
Anyone who thinks Faulk was a superior "all around" RB to Sayers is way off. I mean those two are not on the same planet, if you actually watched both play.
I'm only 32, but I'm only speaking of what I was around to really see Â
There's no dispute that Sayers was a special player, from my perspective NFL football is much more evolved in the late 90's from the 60's. It's much more saturated with top shelf talent, and there's much more science involved in the weight room, and kitchen. Sayers had one season where he lead the league in yards from scrimmage. Faulk has done it back to back. 1999-2001 was a ridiculous stretch for Faulk, where he got a three peat for the YPC category. His contributions in the receiving game absolutely dwarves Sayers in terms of numbers. Sayers looks like a dazzling player in highlights, just looking to get some insights. I'm sure stats don't tell the whole story, but Sayers over Faulk is a tough sell for me. He has 2 MVP's and 3 Offensive Player of the Year awards to his name.
RE: To those who saw him play
Hades07 : 7/6/2016 8:49 pm : link : reply
In comment 13023660 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
Where does Bo Jackson stand?
Bo Jackson was an amazing player. Problem with him is not only was his career short, he played short seasons as well, not showing up until baseball season was over.
Can you imagine, spring training, and then a 162 game baseball schedule.......and then throwing the pads on, and just going out there and playing? To me, probably the greatest athlete ever......
As for me as a kid, watching Tittle throw to Shoftner and Gifford, that was special.....and then there were the games against the Cleveland Browns and Jimmy Brown.....sometimes we stopped him, sometimes we didn't.....he was unreal.....I will always remember, him getting hit hard by 2 or three guys, and he would get up, and SLOWLY walk back to the huddle(his trademark).....next play he would be sprinting past those guys for a td....
In 1965 we drafted Tucker Frederickson.....I thought he was going to be something special.....that same year, we played the Chicago Bears...the Bears had two first round picks that year and chose Butkus and Sayers.......
I was finally going to see Gale vs Tucker....it was no contest...Sayers ripped off a couple td runs, one a long one, and kind of coasted in, and had over 100 yards....Tucker met Mr. Butkus, repeatedly, and went nowhere.....I remember one play, where Tucker was gang tackled, and Butkus came in and ripped the ball out of his hands.....Butkus was Butkus, right from his rookie year...
But Gale Sayers was something special to watch.....watching the weekly highlights on TV, you always looked forward to a Bears' game.....
My other favorite to watch on that weekly show, was Fran Tarkington.....guy was a highlight reel....when we got him, I thought the sky was the limit.....but outside of a couple of players like Johnson and Bob Tucker and McNeil, this team just did not have the talent to compete, especially with their weak defense....
RE: I'm only 32, but I'm only speaking of what I was around to really see Â
There's no dispute that Sayers was a special player, from my perspective NFL football is much more evolved in the late 90's from the 60's. It's much more saturated with top shelf talent, and there's much more science involved in the weight room, and kitchen. Sayers had one season where he lead the league in yards from scrimmage. Faulk has done it back to back. 1999-2001 was a ridiculous stretch for Faulk, where he got a three peat for the YPC category. His contributions in the receiving game absolutely dwarves Sayers in terms of numbers. Sayers looks like a dazzling player in highlights, just looking to get some insights. I'm sure stats don't tell the whole story, but Sayers over Faulk is a tough sell for me. He has 2 MVP's and 3 Offensive Player of the Year awards to his name.
Faulk had Warner at QB and one of the best WR duos in the league's history along side him in Holt and Bruce, as well as a dazzling offensive scheme to play in. I think stats doesn't nearly tell the story on Sayers.
But if you insist on looking at stats that really "tell the story" look at Sayers' production via TDS/touch.
Also "yards scrimmage" is a very poor comparative metric between them because it eliminates what Sayers was and did as a KR and PR.
At his peak, Sayers was the best WR and PR IN LEAGUE HISTORY.
Pretty sure without looking he averaged over 30 per KR and over 15 yards per PR one season. He was an insane open field runner.
In terms of just watching him run, the only guy that approached him was Sanders IMO. Guys who could turn runs bottled up as nothing into 80 yards TDs.
In my lifetime he's the 2nd best FOOTBALL PLAYER I have ever seen after LT. Any list that doesn't include him is a horseshit list.They guy did everything excellently.
RE: Walter Payton, Walter Payton, Walter Payton. Â
In my lifetime he's the 2nd best FOOTBALL PLAYER I have ever seen after LT. Any list that doesn't include him is a horseshit list.They guy did everything excellently.
I agree with this. There are 4 NFL players that to me were just on a whole other level than anyone else. LT, Payton, Rice and Lott.
I'm only 31 so my NFL memories only really go back to the early 90's... but these are the guys I felt were most impressive in my time as a fan off the top of my head..
QB - Marino
HB - Sanders/Tomlinson
OL - Larry Allen and Erik Williams before accident
WR - Beckham (partially the gloves but never seen a guy make these catches)
TE - Kellen Winlow but biased for Bavaro
disappointing in playoff games (and the sample size is huge).
He was a slightly above-average playoff QB.
2 rings? He owes both SB rings to a few studs on the defensive side of ball.
Just for comparison sake, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have nearly identical playoff stats and it's roughly the same drop-off from their regular season standards.
defenses are better in the playoffs. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd guess Eli is somewhat of an anomaly, as a QB with better post-season performances over a long enough sample to be meaningful than his regular season stats.
No.1: Jim Brown
No.2 Jim Brown
No.3: Jim Brown
No.4: Jerry Rice
No.6: Walter Payton
No.7: Lance Alworth
No.8: Barry Sanders
No.9: Gayle Sayers
No.10: Odell Beckham
No.11: John Mackey
No.12: Randy Moss
No.13: Calvin Johnson
No.14: Emmitt Smith
No.15: Adrian Peterson
disappointing in playoff games (and the sample size is huge).
He was a slightly above-average playoff QB.
2 rings? He owes both SB rings to a few studs on the defensive side of ball.
PEyton was a victim of his own success in my view. There's no hiding that Peyton's numbers took a dive in the postseason but I think there are reasons for that not necessarily related to Peyton's shortcomings. He carried teams to heights that others could not and when faced against tougher teams he'd be exposed. And it's not like his postseason stats were awful.
Saying he owes his 2 titles to the defenses is pathetic. How many seasons did he carry average to below average defenses to 12 wins?
You go ahead and start a team with average talent and take any another other QB other than Peyton. I'll take that same team with Peyton and light you the fuck up every week.
that land in the right spot at the right time and to their credit, take full advantage of things. See Brady, Montana and some others.
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
I like it! Add in another guard like Steve Hutchinson and lets add in another tackle for the right side. How about Tony Boseli or Orlando Pace. Actually, Jonathon Ogden works too. But ill say Boseli.
I penalized him unfairly because he played in such a gifted offense. I took the other tackles because they had to thrive in less talented systems. Totally unfair I know.
He was great at throwing the deep ball. Dan Marino had that quick release. Paul Warfield would make those great acrobatic catches.
Graham's career ended in 1955, I'm going to say the number of people who can count him among the best offensive players they've ever seen on this site is less than 5.
But Rice was very very very close and his peak lasted longer than moss. That's why I go rice plus Moss appeared to quit in some notable games but maybe that's an unfair perception and upon further thought really it's only one game I remember moss coming up really small. 41-0.
that land in the right spot at the right time and to their credit, take full advantage of things. See Brady, Montana and some others.
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
This is a very, very strong argument for Peyton Manning. I must say that I might have to yield a bit.
However, the way SB 48 played out after a record setting 2013 regular season.....that's just something that would never happen to Brady or Montana.
Peyton might be able to carry regular talent farther, but if you have a very good or great team, Brady/Montana, even his brother were better in the big moments.
RE: RE: Gayle Sayers. No one else has scored 6 TDs in a single game, a record Â
Had the Giants not upgraded this defense we may have witnessed several backs scoring 6 TD's in a game
Cute one liner but your statement severely undervalues what it means to score 6 TDs in a single game. Not to mention you are factually way the fuck off.
What was the most TDs scored by a single player in a single game vs the Giants last year?
When New Orleans lit us up for 52, no player scored more than 2....
that land in the right spot at the right time and to their credit, take full advantage of things. See Brady, Montana and some others.
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
This is a very, very strong argument for Peyton Manning. I must say that I might have to yield a bit.
However, the way SB 48 played out after a record setting 2013 regular season.....that's just something that would never happen to Brady or Montana.
Peyton might be able to carry regular talent farther, but if you have a very good or great team, Brady/Montana, even his brother were better in the big moments.
Couldn't agree more. It really is an impossible debate. My eyes just tell me that Peyton is the safest thing we have ever seen at QB, at least over the last 35 years or so. But I agree, Peyton was far from perfect and his big game moments leave a lot to be desired. Guys like Brady and Montana improved as the games got bigger.
QB - Marino
HB - Sanders/Tomlinson
OL - Larry Allen and Erik Williams before accident
WR - Beckham (partially the gloves but never seen a guy make these catches)
TE - Kellen Winlow but biased for Bavaro
The gloves? That every other WR wears?
Funny how you were one of the few who even mentioned OBJ and then had to qualify it!
I won't. If OBJ keeps up at this pace and remains healthy, he should end up tops at his position.
If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
were two of the best offensive players I ever saw play. I mean there were great QBs and WRs - obviously great linemen - but Sayers and Campbell (in very different ways) just dominated the entire field when the ball was in their hands.
Guys I always thought were just simply great at their Â
If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
The only person on Earth? No, there are at least two of us. I'll take Bavaro over Gronk any day of the week and especially on Sundays.
If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
so receiving stats and other people's opinions are your entire case. Thanks, no need to discuss this with you anymore.
Bavaro over Gronk in a thread regarding the best Offensive players? Â
games in the Meadowlands to attest to his very good blocking but Gronk is just such an offensive machine that, even if he blocked liked Donnell, would be my choice between the two as the better offensive Tight End.
This from a fan that everytime the Giants got around the 20 yard line during the 1980s, I asked my Dad "Why don't they just throw it to Bavaro now?"...
I don't think you can. It's damn near two completely different games.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
I don't think you can. It's damn near two completely different games.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
Okay, let's just agree to disagree. It's not like Bavaro owes me money or anything.
RE: RE: RE: Can you really compare stats from two different eras? Â
I don't think you can. It's damn near two completely different games.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
Okay, let's just agree to disagree. It's not like Bavaro owes me money or anything.
Well he owes me money, which is why I am dissing him...
;-)
Be honest. You just like the pictures of Gronk naked. Â
Terrell Owens
Adrian Peterson
LaDanian Tomlinson
If it's about putting it all together, it's hard to argue against Tom Brady here. He's as precise and collected as I've ever seen. Peyton Manning is right behind him, but behind none the less. Disappeared too often when it's mattered most.
2-Gale Sayers
3-Jerry Rice
4-Marshall Faulk
5-Barry Sanders
6-Walter Payton
7-AP
8-Gifford
9-Bob Hayes
10-Homer Jones
Jerry Rice and Barry Sanders.
No one threw the ball like Marino but I was always a Montana guy. Same with Manning as a pure passer but I would rather have Brady.
I won't put Michael Vick in their class but he was breathtaking when he pulled the ball in and started to run. Plaxico made an eye-opening catches at least once a game but wasn't nearly consistent enough. I need to see Beckham do it for a few more years. he could elbow his way into the conversation though...
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Marino was the best passer I've ever seen.
And obviously Jerry Rice.
Exactly my first thought.
Emmitt Smith
Super Joe
Jerry Rice
Eric Dickerson
Randy Moss
No particular order but if I could pick only one to start a team I'd go with Sweetness. And yeah, I know it's a quarterbacks league.
2- Jerry Rice
3- Terrell Davis
From a pure talent standpoint those three were the first to come to mind. But Montana is still the best QB I've seen, and Rice obviously had a better career than Moss.
• OJ (as a person he is a POS)
• Barry Sanders
• Walter Peyton
• Joe Montana
• Roger Staubach
• Peyton Manning
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's probably the most dominant player in the game today at his position and all said and done will be among the all-time greats if not the the GOAT at this position. rare combo of size, speed, strength, and skill. only injuries can derail him.
2-Gale Sayers
3-Jerry Rice
4-Marshall Faulk
5-Barry Sanders
6-Walter Payton
7-AP
8-Gifford
9-Bob Hayes
10-Homer Jones
I agree with this list for skilled positions (non-QB) These were the cream. The only one that I did not see much was Gifford and yet he was my favorite when I first started watching. Caught many games of Jim Brown. Sayers was special.
Those 6 TDs compile a total of 244 yards rushing, receiving, and returning a punt. He totaled 316 yards gained that day, on a muddy field.
Team mate Mike Ditka was asked if Sayers's performance was affected by the muddy field that day.
Ditka replied: "yeah, if the field had been dry he would've scored 10 touchdowns."
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
J Brown
OJ Simpson (I know but he was phenomenal)
Barry Sanders
Marshall Faulk
Walter Peyton
QB
Brady
Manning
Marino
Fouts
Farve
WR
Rice
Moss
Johnson
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In comment 13023370 micky said:
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
He's better than Tony G? Even if you believe that you think he's a better offensive player than Peyton Manning? Jerry Rice? T
At the top of their game (in no particular order):
Bo Jackson (surprised no one has mentioned him)
Barry Sanders
Randy Moss
Peyton Manning
OJ Simpson (great player; massive POS as a person)
Michael Vick (great player; POS as a person)
Jim Kelly. Damn, the Bills were freakishly good.
Kurt Warner. The Rams edition.
Steve Young. When he was with the 49ers.
RB:
Jim Brown. GOAT
Gale Sayers, in his prime
Bo Jackson. Ditto.
Earl Campbell. Ditto.
Barry Sanders. F*ckin' Lions, man.
TE:
Dave Casper.
Kellen Winslow.
Ozzy Newsome.
For one brief shining moment, a Giant named Jeremy Shockey
WR:
Randy Moss. Vikings editiion.
Lynn Swann.
Jerry Rice.
ODJ has a chance to be included in this list in 2030.
KR:
Billy White Shoes Johnson.
Deion Sanders.
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In comment 13023436 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13023370 micky said:
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
He's better than Tony G? Even if you believe that you think he's a better offensive player than Peyton Manning? Jerry Rice? T
I missed Rice on your list but I could go on and on. Bavarro isnt a top 30 player in NFL history on the offensive side of the ball. Probably not top 100 if we are counting offensive lineman.
It's tough to put these guys in order, but here's my list (off the top of my head):
AGAIN... NOT ORDERED (just written down in the number I think of them)
RB:
1) Marshall Faulk
2) Tomlinson
3) Tiki Barber circa 05-07 (yes, I think he is up there with those two)
4) Adrian Peterson
This list is tough, because there are some players who were consistent but IMO never huge gamebreakers (Curtis Martin), players I only vaguely remember from being a child (Sanders), and some who I think may have been good enough if they played in the workhorse era (someone like Jamaal Charles). Some honorable mentions could be Edjerin James, or I guess Shaun Alexander but I thought Alexander was way more a product of his line.
QB:
1) Brady
2) Manning
3) Rodgers
(Brees is not in the echelon these guys are in)
WR:
1) Moss
2) Megatron
3) TO
4) Harrison
Honorable mention to Torry Holt
TE:
1) Gronk
2) Gates
3) Gonzalez
I'm sure I left off some notable omissions. I do think that OBJ, Green, Julio Jones, have a shot to slide into the WR spots on this list.
Pretty surprising. Other surprises: Marshall at 22, Welker at 20, Donald Driver tied at 40 (with andre rison), Colston at 44, Galloway at 45.
heath Miller at 69 and Greg Olson at 80 are surprising as well.
Tiki ranks at 73 all time, with rushing yards all time in the 20s. I think he absolutely should be a HOF'er... If you go by statistics only, he has a better case than Eli
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In comment 13023370 micky said:
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
I never saw them but I'd imagine Kellen Winslow would have something to say about that. Let alone Gonzales, Gates, and GRONK, who probably IS the best TE ever.
Jimmy Brown is hard to explain. I have never talked to a fan or pro who saw him who didn't think he was clearly the best ever.
You can say he couldn't do it today and I think that's fair, but you have to measure him against his peers, and he was the strongest, biggest and fastest man on the field.
When he retired after only seven years and because of an acting career he owned every single rushing record there was.
Most have been broken, but only because they went from a 12 to sixteen game schedule.
Try to extrapolate........ that means in years when he rushed for 1800 yards in a 12 game season he'd be consistently rushing for 2400 yards in the longer season.
Or put those 1800 yards in this perspective: the runner-up most years was the great Jim Taylor who might have wound up with a thousand yards. That means J.B. was rushing for almost twice the yards as his closest competitor.
Perhaps the only record that was not influenced by the change in 12 to 16 games was his yards per carry. And that record of 5.6 yards per attempt (that's from memory and maybe slightly off) has only been matched by one man and that's a QB (Randall Cunningham).
'Nuff said?
In unranked order
Barry Sanders
Marshall Faulk
Jerry Rice
Jason Whitten
Joe Montana
Randy Moss
Tom Brady
Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Jeremy Shockey, Plaxico Burress, Eli Manning, Larry Fitzgerald, Dan Fouts, Kellen Winslow, Charlie Joyner, Jackie Slater, Jack Younglood, Ray Guy, Marcus Allen, Ted Hendricks
Moss, Sanders, Gronk, Megatron, Faulk, LDT, Odell...I'm probably forgetting some, but those names really stick out.
Owens was unreal. Harrison as well.
TO is not a bad choice; at his peak, he was downright scary.
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In comment 13023436 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13023370 micky said:
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
He's better than Tony G? Even if you believe that you think he's a better offensive player than Peyton Manning? Jerry Rice? T
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In comment 13023436 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13023370 micky said:
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Walter Peyton
3. Barry Sanders
4. Eric Dickerson
5. Steve Largent
6. Tony Dorsett
7. Mark Bravaro
Mark Bavaro? Come on dude.
he's the best TE to ever play. If you pick a TE at all it has to be Bavaro.
Bavaro is not the best TE to play, not even close. This is pure Giant homerism. If you know it and you're okay with it, fine, that's cool - but if you actually believe that, come on dude.
I never saw them but I'd imagine Kellen Winslow would have something to say about that. Let alone Gonzales, Gates, and GRONK, who probably IS the best TE ever.
2. Eric Dickerson
3. Walter Payton
4. Earl Campbell
5. Emmitt Smith
Honorable mention Marcus Allen
1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss
3. Sterling Sharpe
4. Calvin Johnson
5. Issac Bruce
Earl Cambell was a man among boys as was Zonka
Walter Payton O.J. Rigging Eric Dickerson Were an exceptional blend of power speed and grace.
Marshall Faulk and Thurmond Thomas were the best all purpose backs of all time
At WR
Randy Moss was truly the most talented I'd every seen
Calvin Johnson is right there with him.
Jerry Rice greatest work ethic ever
Freddy B always open they named the college football award after him
Lance Alworth poetry is motion
B Sanders was incredible to watch but had too many negative plays.
Dickerson was a beast with speed.
Bavaro was a better blocker, according to Belichick and I'd take his word over anyone else on the planet on this matter. He says Gronk is close though. But all around TE, Gronkowski is the best I've ever seen.
Belichick: Gronk almost in Bavaro's class as a blocker - ( New Window )
Don Hutson? Screw off.
The dominant players on offense in the 60s are Jim brown and Gayle Sayers. Earl Campbell, Kellen W in the 70s, along with Eric d and Walter Peyton in the 80s, Jerry rice, dan Marino and Joe M.
The 90s brought us Moss, Faulk, Owens.
00s brought Calvin, AP, LDT, Brady manning.
10s have brought Beckham ang gronk. Newton may get there too.
Linemen would have to include Munoz, pace, Ogden. Hannah? Please. Mike Webster on the list before him.
Garbage having ditka on that list great player but he's not a top 40 offensive player.
And he still averaged 5 yards a carry for his career with the negative runs... Sanders and Rice are the two best players I ever seen.
RB Barry sanders
TE Gronk
FB Riggins
One each.
He was just insanely consistent.
G-L Allen
C-Webster
He was a slightly above-average playoff QB.
2 rings? He owes both SB rings to a few studs on the defensive side of ball.
I only saw Eric Dickerson play a couple of times due to the coastal thing, and he didn't do much in those games. No knock against him; I just never got to see him shine.
When Bo Jackson was healthy, he was a freak of nature. He just tore defenses apart. Earl Campbell was like that, too - although his offensive line was outstanding and should get some credit. And Randy Moss's first three years in the NFL were transformative.
And he could catch, and block when he wanted to.
1963 was amazing: 1863 yards in 14 games. 6.4 ypr. Extrapolated to 16 games, it beats Dickerson's all-time record by 15 yards. And Dickerson averaged "only" 5.6 ypr that year.
And Brown, remember, was a FB. Not a lot of outside breakaways to boost the average.
For the TE position, I think Gronk is the best TE I've ever seen. Shockey had the potential to be up there, but he was in the end, his very worst enemy. The partying and drinking took a toll, and the injuries piled up. Shannon Sharpe, Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, and Jason Witten are all definitely in the conversation. I only really caught Bavaro at the tail end of his career, but I'd throw him in the tier right under the guys I mentioned. I'd lump him in with Ben Coates and Keith Jackson.
As for FB's, even though it's a dying position, If you were to qualify someone as a weapon, you have mention Larry Centers. We are never going to see a FB with those receiving stats again.
TE lists that don't include Mackey or Casper
QB lists not referencing Elway...
Although at QB there is a valid argument that both Manning and Brady have left earlier generation QBs in the dust.
Not so with RBs and TEs...
Anyone who thinks Faulk was a superior "all around" RB to Sayers is way off. I mean those two are not on the same planet, if you actually watched both play.
Mark Bavaro was a great Giant, but he does not belong in the conversation with Casper, Newsome, Winslow, or Gronk.
Hades07 : 7/6/2016 8:49 pm : link : reply
In comment 13023660 Sonic Youth said:
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Where does Bo Jackson stand?
Bo Jackson was an amazing player. Problem with him is not only was his career short, he played short seasons as well, not showing up until baseball season was over.
Can you imagine, spring training, and then a 162 game baseball schedule.......and then throwing the pads on, and just going out there and playing? To me, probably the greatest athlete ever......
As for me as a kid, watching Tittle throw to Shoftner and Gifford, that was special.....and then there were the games against the Cleveland Browns and Jimmy Brown.....sometimes we stopped him, sometimes we didn't.....he was unreal.....I will always remember, him getting hit hard by 2 or three guys, and he would get up, and SLOWLY walk back to the huddle(his trademark).....next play he would be sprinting past those guys for a td....
In 1965 we drafted Tucker Frederickson.....I thought he was going to be something special.....that same year, we played the Chicago Bears...the Bears had two first round picks that year and chose Butkus and Sayers.......
I was finally going to see Gale vs Tucker....it was no contest...Sayers ripped off a couple td runs, one a long one, and kind of coasted in, and had over 100 yards....Tucker met Mr. Butkus, repeatedly, and went nowhere.....I remember one play, where Tucker was gang tackled, and Butkus came in and ripped the ball out of his hands.....Butkus was Butkus, right from his rookie year...
But Gale Sayers was something special to watch.....watching the weekly highlights on TV, you always looked forward to a Bears' game.....
My other favorite to watch on that weekly show, was Fran Tarkington.....guy was a highlight reel....when we got him, I thought the sky was the limit.....but outside of a couple of players like Johnson and Bob Tucker and McNeil, this team just did not have the talent to compete, especially with their weak defense....
Faulk had Warner at QB and one of the best WR duos in the league's history along side him in Holt and Bruce, as well as a dazzling offensive scheme to play in. I think stats doesn't nearly tell the story on Sayers.
But if you insist on looking at stats that really "tell the story" look at Sayers' production via TDS/touch.
Also "yards scrimmage" is a very poor comparative metric between them because it eliminates what Sayers was and did as a KR and PR.
At his peak, Sayers was the best WR and PR IN LEAGUE HISTORY.
Pretty sure without looking he averaged over 30 per KR and over 15 yards per PR one season. He was an insane open field runner.
In terms of just watching him run, the only guy that approached him was Sanders IMO. Guys who could turn runs bottled up as nothing into 80 yards TDs.
RB - AP, Dickerson, Faulk, Payton, Tiki
WR - Moss, Rice, Owens, Holt, Calvin Johnson
TE - Bavaro, Gates, Gonzalez, Sharpe, Winslow
QB: Marino, Favre, Brady
RB: Sanders, Faulk, Peterson, Tomlinson
WR: Rice, Moss, Owens, Calvin, Beckham (yup)
TE: Gonzalez, Gates, Sharpe, Gronkowski
HB - Sanders/Tomlinson
OL - Larry Allen and Erik Williams before accident
WR - Beckham (partially the gloves but never seen a guy make these catches)
TE - Kellen Winlow but biased for Bavaro
He was a slightly above-average playoff QB.
2 rings? He owes both SB rings to a few studs on the defensive side of ball.
Just for comparison sake, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady have nearly identical playoff stats and it's roughly the same drop-off from their regular season standards.
defenses are better in the playoffs. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd guess Eli is somewhat of an anomaly, as a QB with better post-season performances over a long enough sample to be meaningful than his regular season stats.
In college: virtually unstoppable
No.2 Jim Brown
No.3: Jim Brown
No.4: Jerry Rice
No.6: Walter Payton
No.7: Lance Alworth
No.8: Barry Sanders
No.9: Gayle Sayers
No.10: Odell Beckham
No.11: John Mackey
No.12: Randy Moss
No.13: Calvin Johnson
No.14: Emmitt Smith
No.15: Adrian Peterson
He was a slightly above-average playoff QB.
2 rings? He owes both SB rings to a few studs on the defensive side of ball.
PEyton was a victim of his own success in my view. There's no hiding that Peyton's numbers took a dive in the postseason but I think there are reasons for that not necessarily related to Peyton's shortcomings. He carried teams to heights that others could not and when faced against tougher teams he'd be exposed. And it's not like his postseason stats were awful.
Saying he owes his 2 titles to the defenses is pathetic. How many seasons did he carry average to below average defenses to 12 wins?
You go ahead and start a team with average talent and take any another other QB other than Peyton. I'll take that same team with Peyton and light you the fuck up every week.
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
G-L Allen
C-Webster
I like it! Add in another guard like Steve Hutchinson and lets add in another tackle for the right side. How about Tony Boseli or Orlando Pace. Actually, Jonathon Ogden works too. But ill say Boseli.
Agree with boselli and Hutchinson.
To me it's Peyton, Elway and Rodgers. Rodgers is gaining.
Graham's career ended in 1955, I'm going to say the number of people who can count him among the best offensive players they've ever seen on this site is less than 5.
His junior season at Oklahoma State: 2850 yards and 44 touchdowns.
In a college season!
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
This is a very, very strong argument for Peyton Manning. I must say that I might have to yield a bit.
However, the way SB 48 played out after a record setting 2013 regular season.....that's just something that would never happen to Brady or Montana.
Peyton might be able to carry regular talent farther, but if you have a very good or great team, Brady/Montana, even his brother were better in the big moments.
Cute one liner but your statement severely undervalues what it means to score 6 TDs in a single game. Not to mention you are factually way the fuck off.
What was the most TDs scored by a single player in a single game vs the Giants last year?
When New Orleans lit us up for 52, no player scored more than 2....
His junior season at Oklahoma State: 2850 yards and 44 touchdowns.
In a college season!
lol...44 TDs WTF
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that land in the right spot at the right time and to their credit, take full advantage of things. See Brady, Montana and some others.
Then you have the QB that lifts franchises up and carries them for a decade. No matter who drafts Peyton Manning that team wins 100 games over a ten year period and win two conference titles. I don't care if it's the Browns, Colts, Lions or Raiders. That team is winning with Peyton Manning at the help. IF that same team drafts Tom Brady I am not so sure Brady ends up in the GOAT conversation.
For most athletes timing is everything. For a guy like PEyton Manning it doesn't matter. That's just my take. Peyton transcends the sport.
This is a very, very strong argument for Peyton Manning. I must say that I might have to yield a bit.
However, the way SB 48 played out after a record setting 2013 regular season.....that's just something that would never happen to Brady or Montana.
Peyton might be able to carry regular talent farther, but if you have a very good or great team, Brady/Montana, even his brother were better in the big moments.
Couldn't agree more. It really is an impossible debate. My eyes just tell me that Peyton is the safest thing we have ever seen at QB, at least over the last 35 years or so. But I agree, Peyton was far from perfect and his big game moments leave a lot to be desired. Guys like Brady and Montana improved as the games got bigger.
HB - Sanders/Tomlinson
OL - Larry Allen and Erik Williams before accident
WR - Beckham (partially the gloves but never seen a guy make these catches)
TE - Kellen Winlow but biased for Bavaro
Funny how you were one of the few who even mentioned OBJ and then had to qualify it!
I won't. If OBJ keeps up at this pace and remains healthy, he should end up tops at his position.
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
QB - Dan Marino
RB - Marshall Faulk
WR - Randy Moss
TE - Gronk
T - Munoz
C - Webster
G - Hannah
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If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
The only person on Earth? No, there are at least two of us. I'll take Bavaro over Gronk any day of the week and especially on Sundays.
Link - ( New Window )
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If you need to ask about Bo Jackson, how can you say definitively that Gronk is better than Bavaro, when you clearly did not see Bavaro during the peak of his career?
Because you are the only person on earth who thinks it's a viable statement, because Gronk's numbers are far above his peers of his era and the best of all time
Gronk
80 games
4.8 rec/game
70 yards/game
14.6 yd/rec
0.8 TDs/game
Bavaro
126 games
2.8 rec/game
38 yards/game
13.5 yd/rec
0.3 Tds/game
This from a fan that everytime the Giants got around the 20 yard line during the 1980s, I asked my Dad "Why don't they just throw it to Bavaro now?"...
Bavaro was great, a lethal blocker and excellent offensive threat, and if not for injury could have been a HOF TE.
Gronkowski if he stays healthy has a decent chance to be the GOAT TE.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
YEAH
I
SAID
IT
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I don't think you can. It's damn near two completely different games.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
Okay, let's just agree to disagree. It's not like Bavaro owes me money or anything.
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In comment 13028872 Klaatu said:
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I don't think you can. It's damn near two completely different games.
Different era's should be taken into account, but the numbers are not really even close which is why I gave them. I also watched them both play a lot, and Bavaro was a very good TE and Gronk is great...
Okay, let's just agree to disagree. It's not like Bavaro owes me money or anything.
Well he owes me money, which is why I am dissing him...
;-)