Most of the media had the Giants buried. How could they come back after that devastating loss. We didn't lose again till Seattle game in the Kingdump. Simms was horrible that game. After that game the Team took it too another level and cruised until the first half of the Super Bowl.
In the Second half McConkey with the towel running on the field you knew the Giants were going to win. They clobbered Denver and Elway in the second half.
Eli manning was never terrible or very terrible or anything close to terrible. He was a winning, strong armed but still flawed young QB. Most young qbs struggle at times. Eli did too but he also won games and played well.
He threw a lot of int's before that streach. Much was also written about how he was so much better after Shockey went down.
Senior year of high school and went to the Eagles and Packers game. It's hard to fathom how dominant LT was unless you saw him in person. Against the Eagles he was unstoppable.
it was the culmination of the steady growth provided by George Young's drafting starting with Simms in 1979.
And because that steady growth was itself a culmination of the horrid years that led to the explosion in 1978 and the hiring of George Young.
So - 1986 was more than just a season. It was years of waiting - followed by steady great drafting by George Young (with no free agency) and the building of a truly dominating force on defense and an overall great team. I KNEW the Giants were winning in 1986 ten seconds after they lost to the Bears in 1985. Anyone who followed the steady buildup from 1979 knew the team was becoming stronger and stronger year after year. 1979 through 1986 - the most fantastic stretch of years in my lifetime all because of George Young and the Giants.
Two totally different situations. One all-time dominant season where in the end opponents were crushed without mercy, and a season straight out of a Hollywood movie with bigger and bigger insane upsets up until the defeat of what would have been the undisputed greatest NFL team of all time off of a miracle play in the most clutch drive in NFL History.
I like having them both and their reduxes of '90 and '11.
The defense was just flat mean and we could
run the rock anytime we needed to not to mention we had
a number of deamons on special teams ...
I watched Paul Horning destroy us early 60's and to finally
get to the big game with Simms and LT it was like none other
etched in the mind forever .
Eli manning was never terrible or very terrible or anything close to terrible. He was a winning, strong armed but still flawed young QB. Most young qbs struggle at times. Eli did too but he also won games and played well.
He threw a lot of int's before that streach. Much was also written about how he was so much better after Shockey went down.
Right, but he was far from terrible. We've all seen terrible. 2005-2006 Eli ain't it. Not even close.
86' was magical. My girlfriends father was a Jets fan and it was my senior year of High School. I lived in Southern Jersey. I knew more Eagle, Jets and Cowboy fans than Giants fans. My older sisters' boyfriend was a Niners fan who was miserable to me. My bus rides were hell for years because the Giants were bad for so long. I am from a large extended Italian family, and when they find a soft spot they bust balls like it is their fucking job and they are the best at it. My balls were busted for years and then......1986. Once they got in a groove at the end of the season, I knew they were going to win it all. I won bets with everyone I knew. It was the best year of my life. I busted EVERONES balls unmercifully, the apprentice surpassed the masters.
86' was magical. My girlfriends father was a Jets fan and it was my senior year of High School. I lived in Southern Jersey. I knew more Eagle, Jets and Cowboy fans than Giants fans. My older sisters' boyfriend was a Niners fan who was miserable to me. My bus rides were hell for years because the Giants were bad for so long. I am from a large extended Italian family, and when they find a soft spot they bust balls like it is their fucking job and they are the best at it. My balls were busted for years and then......1986. Once they got in a groove at the end of the season, I knew they were going to win it all. I won bets with everyone I knew. It was the best year of my life. I busted EVERONES balls unmercifully, the apprentice surpassed the masters.
Hey I know you! There was a documentary made about your life where Joe Pesci played you and Marissa Tomei played your GF: "My Cousin Vinny", right?
"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
86' was magical. My girlfriends father was a Jets fan and it was my senior year of High School. I lived in Southern Jersey. I knew more Eagle, Jets and Cowboy fans than Giants fans. My older sisters' boyfriend was a Niners fan who was miserable to me. My bus rides were hell for years because the Giants were bad for so long. I am from a large extended Italian family, and when they find a soft spot they bust balls like it is their fucking job and they are the best at it. My balls were busted for years and then......1986. Once they got in a groove at the end of the season, I knew they were going to win it all. I won bets with everyone I knew. It was the best year of my life. I busted EVERONES balls unmercifully, the apprentice surpassed the masters.
Hey I know you! There was a documentary made about your life where Joe Pesci played you and Marissa Tomei played your GF: "My Cousin Vinny", right?
Every italian cliche' in movies could describe my family. People came neighboring states when my grandmother cooked certain meals. I used get up early on Saturday mornings to help her start preparing for Sunday meals. I have made dough, made frsh pasta with her. If I told you my name and you googled it, there are some scary people that I never new were scary. Is what it is. You had to yell if you wanted to heard at those dinners....Fellow Italians from NJ back me up, we are all like that. The ball busting is an art form.
That depends on whether you're a baby boomer, or a millennial.
For the baby boomers, a long suffering bunch, that first
SB win was extra special. If you're a millennial, you might
feel differently!
I'm 51 - 86' was a better SEASON.
07' season sucked. It really did. So did 2011.
The highs of the 07 and 11 playoffs are unparalleled though - 2007, I'd say is arguably the most exciting playoff run in history.
Honestly, since then, football hasn't held the same level of excitement for me. Once you've had the best something has to offer, what's left?
named Chris Chase. He ranks the '86 Giants as the 17th best SB team ever, yet the '84 Niners 2nd and the '89 Niners 4th. Which is kinda funny because I recall that more than a few of those players on either the '84 or '89 Niners were, you know, members of the '86 Niners that the Giants demolished 49-3 in one of the most lopsided playoff games in history...
"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
Some clown.
So in 77 and 78 Earhardt coached great offenses, what does that have to do with 1986 and how he ran that team under the direction of Bill Parcells?
Short on talent at WR, surely, so fucking play 2 TEs more you had Zeke Mowatt, possibly a top 10 TE in the league as your 2nd TE.
Did you watch that team? I was living in SF at the time and compared to Walsh's rendition of the WCO the Giants O was poorly managed. Parcells didn't trust Simms.
Parcells was a risk-taker, even though he liked "smash mouth" offense. He liked to go for it on 4th down. He'd use trick plays and fake punts. He knew he had a defense that could bail him out, and he took advantage of that. So while the offense was pretty vanilla, the Giants overall weren't THAT predictable.
IIRC, Parcells hated fumbles but wasn't that upset by downfield interceptions. There's the story of him saying to Simms "If you don't throw two interceptions today you're not taking enough chances." He liked the downfield passing game, as TC did.
And they'd score on D fairly often, too. That helped.
AP, give substance or just shut the fuck up. Bashing a post with zero grounded specific reasoning is the most useless childish garbage crap on the internet.
YOU SUCK!
NO YOU SUCK!
I SAID IT FIRST!!!
Jeez Louise...
The 8th in points scored is misleading I bet, because it doesn't subtract defensive scores but attributes all scoring to the "offense."
They weren't awful, but they were awful to watch and could have been much, much better and more efficient at, you know, scoring points. Parcels was practically obsessed with eating clock as opposed to scoring, IMO.
RE: Play defense, let LT do his thing, run the ball Â
The game was better then. Everybody got excited when a team would score during a defensive battle. Our last NFC Championship was like that. This league of non-stop scoring is more like a video game and feeds more to the fantasy fan at the expense of better played football.
RE: RE: RE: To the several posters who commented about Â
"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
Some clown.
So in 77 and 78 Earhardt coached great offenses, what does that have to do with 1986 and how he ran that team under the direction of Bill Parcells?
Short on talent at WR, surely, so fucking play 2 TEs more you had Zeke Mowatt, possibly a top 10 TE in the league as your 2nd TE.
Did you watch that team? I was living in SF at the time and compared to Walsh's rendition of the WCO the Giants O was poorly managed. Parcells didn't trust Simms.
Lou I'm surprised at you. This post is ridiculous.
Do you think that Earhart forgot how to run an offense? Earhardt enacted the philosophy of his boss. And by the way, when he was OffCo at Pittsburgh, he turned Barry Foster into a star RB and had some people actually believing that Bubby Brister was an NFL QB.
Zeke Mowatt was coming off ACL surgery, missed all of '85 and wasn't right until the last quarter of the year when he began to take a bigger role.
If you're comparing the Giants to the 49ers you're a fool. Parcells and Walsh are polar opposites in football philosophy. Remember after the 1990 title game “What do you think of that West Coast Offense now?” When a reporter asked him if the Giants’ victory had “vindicated” their style of play, Parcells shot back, “It’s always been vindicated. It’s that new stuff that has something to prove.”
And in case you forgot, the Giants and their "poorly managed" offense beat the 49ers TWICE in 1986, once by 49-3 when they had everyone back.
"Parcells didn't trust Simms" is one of the dumbest statements ever made here. Parcells PROTECTED Simms by using their stellar running game and defense to win until Manuel came back and Mowatt was healthy. THAT is intelligent coaching.
AP, give substance or just shut the fuck up. Bashing a post with zero grounded specific reasoning is the most useless childish garbage crap on the internet.
YOU SUCK!
NO YOU SUCK!
I SAID IT FIRST!!!
Jeez Louise...
The 8th in points scored is misleading I bet, because it doesn't subtract defensive scores but attributes all scoring to the "offense."
They weren't awful, but they were awful to watch and could have been much, much better and more efficient at, you know, scoring points. Parcels was practically obsessed with eating clock as opposed to scoring, IMO.
Actually, there was only one defensive TD all season in 1986. George Martin. :)
The team wound up +11 in turnovers (4th in the league) - browsing through the scoring for the year, you see a VERY consistent offense that could be counted on to put 17-21 points on the board every week - with that defense, much more than enough.
and idiotic play calling that you are calling "smart". Damn near cost the Giants a game they should have won handily, as they were the superior team and demonstrated that superiority quite blatantly when the 2 teams met again.
When the Giants played the 9ers on Monday night, why did the go into halftime down 17-0, and what did they change to flip that game around and win 21-17?
Let's fast forward a second to David Carr interviewing Rashad Jennings and his comment to Rashad (again on the topic of Eli's field generalship and how MacAdoo gives Eli freedom to change plays) about how smart Eli is, and how he has the freedom to audible to a pass play if the original running play requested from the sidelines looks like it will run "into a brick wall" - that was Carr's exact words.
That game was 17-0 Niners because the Fugazi Giants insisted on running into a brick wall all the first half as the 9ers were, IIRC, putting 9 guys in the box just to stop the Giants running game... and it worked.
For the second half the Giants came out passing against the 9ers tightly packed D and marched through them like a hot knife through room temperature butter.
They were idiots for not doing that earlier in the game. For not giving Phil the kind of options Eli has for changing plays at the LOS.
IMO. That's where my comment about BP not trusting Simms comes from.
And you are right to pick up that I really blame Parcels, not Earnhardt.
They were happy to play a style that would earn them 17-21 points per game when with their OL, Phil, Morris, and Bavaro and Galbreath they had enough weapons to score a good bit more.
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
Who the fuck says it's wrong to compare Parcels'offense to Walsh's? You are my boss, my dad, my G-d? Go piss off yourself.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
Who the fuck says it's wrong to compare Parcels'offense to Walsh's? You are my boss, my dad, my G-d? Go piss off yourself.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
The Blind Slide included interviews with Walsh and Parcells, in which Walsh describes success on offense being about having a system, and Parcells describes success on defense being dependent on talent.
As for Simms, it's probably already been stated here but Walsh wanted him instead of Montana.
Who the fuck says it's wrong to compare Parcels'offense to Walsh's? You are my boss, my dad, my G-d? Go piss off yourself.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
You said the Giants offense was "poorly managed". No, it was not, it was run in a different style befitting a different football philosophy. You were obviously enamored of the WCO at the time, I was not, that's fine. I think the Giants ran the right offense for their philosophy and their geographical location and their personnel. And you still didn't tell me who Simms was supposed to throw it to with Manuel (best on NYG, avg otherwise) out and Mowatt recovering. Bobby Johnson was their #1, and McConkey wasn't even on the roster until week 5.
And I didn't tell you to piss off, so go fuck yourself (just kidding. We can agree to disagree).
They were happy to play a style that would earn them 17-21 points per game when with their OL, Phil, Morris, and Bavaro and Galbreath they had enough weapons to score a good bit more.
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
Right - I said the defense was +11 in turnovers, FWIW, that was 5th in the league.
I believe the Giant offense was engineered around it's talents. That offensive line was excellent at run blocking, horrid at pass protection. 84' and 85' were career years for Simms in yardage, but he was sacked 55 and 52 times in each, respectively. By 86', Parcells/Earhardt shifted the offense accordingly, and Simms was sacked ONLY 45 times. For reference, Eli's WORST season - he was sacked 39 times in 2013. Let that sink in. The 1986 Giants offensive line was weaker in pass protection than the God-awful 2013 unit - and not by a little!
It wasn't a matter of Parcells not being bright enough to allow Phil to throw more, it was a matter of keeping Simms on the Sports page and off the Obituaries!
I give credit to Parcells to knowing his teams weaknesses and getting the absolute best out of what was a flawed offense.
They were happy to play a style that would earn them 17-21 points per game when with their OL, Phil, Morris, and Bavaro and Galbreath they had enough weapons to score a good bit more.
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
Right - I said the defense was +11 in turnovers, FWIW, that was 5th in the league.
I believe the Giant offense was engineered around it's talents. That offensive line was excellent at run blocking, horrid at pass protection. 84' and 85' were career years for Simms in yardage, but he was sacked 55 and 52 times in each, respectively. By 86', Parcells/Earhardt shifted the offense accordingly, and Simms was sacked ONLY 45 times. For reference, Eli's WORST season - he was sacked 39 times in 2013. Let that sink in. The 1986 Giants offensive line was weaker in pass protection than the God-awful 2013 unit - and not by a little!
It wasn't a matter of Parcells not being bright enough to allow Phil to throw more, it was a matter of keeping Simms on the Sports page and off the Obituaries!
I give credit to Parcells to knowing his teams weaknesses and getting the absolute best out of what was a flawed offense.
Right. Play to your strengths. They were very weak at WR, no depth at TE while Mowatt was active but still recovering, and once they settled on Morris at RB and Carthon as lead blocker they were unstoppable on the ground. I loved watching them run at will.
the offense struggled a bit early on in the year Â
that's unlikely to be breached. I agree the had poor WRs and I'd even add the Joe Morris had awful hands too so it's not like they had a ton of options of talented folks to pass to, but I did mention Galbreath who IIRC was the team's 2nd leading receiver after Bavaro.
But you are ignoring my example of the 9ers game on Monday night and completely ignoring my point about trusting Phil to change plays at the LOS to adjust to the defensive schemes and fronts the team was facing in real-time. Instead of adjusting as a half time remedy...
That OL didn't suck at pass blocking. They gave up a lot of sacks because that archaic offense didn't have 3 step drops and ways of getting the ball out of the QB's hands fast enough. And because damn near every time the DID pass it was 3rd and long. As for their "great" running game, weren't they middle of the pack in yards per rush? When your offense is obvious it's easier to defend...
Run, run, pass.
Run, run, pass.
How to make your QB
look like an ass!
Just hated that O philosophy. Let's aim to win by a late field goal!
RE: Well I think we've reached an impasse of opinion Â
that's unlikely to be breached. I agree the had poor WRs and I'd even add the Joe Morris had awful hands too so it's not like they had a ton of options of talented folks to pass to, but I did mention Galbreath who IIRC was the team's 2nd leading receiver after Bavaro.
But you are ignoring my example of the 9ers game on Monday night and completely ignoring my point about trusting Phil to change plays at the LOS to adjust to the defensive schemes and fronts the team was facing in real-time. Instead of adjusting as a half time remedy...
That OL didn't suck at pass blocking. They gave up a lot of sacks because that archaic offense didn't have 3 step drops and ways of getting the ball out of the QB's hands fast enough. And because damn near every time the DID pass it was 3rd and long. As for their "great" running game, weren't they middle of the pack in yards per rush? When your offense is obvious it's easier to defend...
Run, run, pass.
Run, run, pass.
How to make your QB
look like an ass!
Just hated that O philosophy. Let's aim to win by a late field goal!
Not ignoring your point Lou, just don't think in that era it was a prevalent as it is today. That really didn't become popular until Jim Kelly with Buffalo.
Nice rhyme though :-)
I think you are wrong about audibles and QBs calling their own plays. Â
Actually I believe that was the norm in old times. Not sure about audibles, but didn't guys like Starr and Unitas call their own plays?
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
RE: I think you are wrong about audibles and QBs calling their own plays. Â
Actually I believe that was the norm in old times. Not sure about audibles, but didn't guys like Starr and Unitas call their own plays?
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
In 1984 and 85', Simms threw for 4044 and 3849 yards, respectively.
What was the difference? Simms had several more targets in 84', including Earnest Gray, a healthy Lionel Manuel, a healthy Zeke Mowatt, Byron Williams even pulled down a few hundred yards - that was the year they platooned Carpenter and Morris - those 2 combined for 1300 yards - it was an excellent, balanced offense and Simms thrived, again - his highest yeardage in a season.
85' still was diverse, with backs combining for over 1,000 receiving, Manuel with a solid 850 yards, Simms chucked for 3800+.
By 86, several key targets were gone, and Parcells knew they couldn't live with a quarterback spending half the game lying on his back. Really, the injuries to Mowatt and Manuel were the real game changers.
I've enjoyed going back through those stats. Nice to see the old names - Earnest Gray, Rob Carpenter - spotted Tom Mullady and John Mistler on that 84' roster.
Going through them though - really highlights one thing.
Phil Simms is one of the most underrated QB's in league history. He was CONSTANTLY under attack, never enjoyed a top-tier WR, had balls of steel - notoriously holding the ball far too long in his early years, waiting FOREVER for one of his shitty, shitty Wide Receivers to break free of coverage. He was fucking Braveheart. I truly believe, the best of the lot in that era.
RE: I think you are wrong about audibles and QBs calling their own plays. Â
Actually I believe that was the norm in old times. Not sure about audibles, but didn't guys like Starr and Unitas call their own plays?
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
Yes, Unitas, Starr and that era plays called by QB, not at the LOS but in the huddle. Then Tom Landry and Paul Brown popularized plays being called by the coaches. The Giants used hand signals. Kelly and the Bills began the shift towards what we have now with the QB constantly looking to change the play at the OL
RE: RE: I think you are wrong about audibles and QBs calling their own plays. Â
Actually I believe that was the norm in old times. Not sure about audibles, but didn't guys like Starr and Unitas call their own plays?
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
In 1984 and 85', Simms threw for 4044 and 3849 yards, respectively.
What was the difference? Simms had several more targets in 84', including Earnest Gray, a healthy Lionel Manuel, a healthy Zeke Mowatt, Byron Williams even pulled down a few hundred yards - that was the year they platooned Carpenter and Morris - those 2 combined for 1300 yards - it was an excellent, balanced offense and Simms thrived, again - his highest yeardage in a season.
85' still was diverse, with backs combining for over 1,000 receiving, Manuel with a solid 850 yards, Simms chucked for 3800+.
By 86, several key targets were gone, and Parcells knew they couldn't live with a quarterback spending half the game lying on his back. Really, the injuries to Mowatt and Manuel were the real game changers.
I've enjoyed going back through those stats. Nice to see the old names - Earnest Gray, Rob Carpenter - spotted Tom Mullady and John Mistler on that 84' roster.
Going through them though - really highlights one thing.
Phil Simms is one of the most underrated QB's in league history. He was CONSTANTLY under attack, never enjoyed a top-tier WR, had balls of steel - notoriously holding the ball far too long in his early years, waiting FOREVER for one of his shitty, shitty Wide Receivers to break free of coverage. He was fucking Braveheart. I truly believe, the best of the lot in that era.
good post
WR Stacey Robinson was a 2nd round draft pick in 1985. Â
The guy had blazing speed, was a 4.40 guy IIRC. Why wasn't he more a factor in the 1986 offense? In fact when the Giants finally turned to him he was a key contributor.
Quote:
Robinson's most notable game was in week 13 of the 1986 season, when the Giants were playing the 49ers on Monday Night Football. The Giants trailed 17-0 at halftime, but scored three touchdowns in the third quarter to win the game. Robinson caught the second touchdown, a 34-yard pass from Phil Simms, but he made an incredible grab[2] on a 49-yard pass from Phil Simms, down to the 1-yard line, to set up the Giants' final score. He finished with 5 catches for a career high 116 yards receiving as the Giants won 21-17.[3] The Giants went on to win Super Bowl XXI that season over the Denver Broncos, and Robinson caught three passes for a team high 62 receiving yards in the big game.[4]
...besides Manuel, NONE of the wideouts in the 80's were really any good. Earnest Gray was going to be Simms' go-to receiver - actually drafted in the second round in 79, right after Simms, he was a decent receiver, had 1100+ yards in 83, injuries slowed him and he was gone by 85' - the only other high round draft picks early in Simms career were John Mistler (3rd rd. - 737 yards receiving CAREER) and Stacy Robinson (2nd rd. pick - 749 yards receiving CAREER).
Parcells/Young virtually ignored receiver in the draft. Lionel Manuel was a 7th rd pick. They got lucky with him. With the rest? They got what they paid for.
It wasn't until 87' - Mark Ingram, Stephen Baker - that the Giants finally addressed the position. Both were in line with the rest of the decade. Weak receivers, though Ingram did have one of the most memorable catch and runs in team history.
Really, when Simms finally got a top shelf receiver in Mike Sherrard, they immediately turned into the Giants most dangerous QB-receiver combination in a generation. The Gods quickly intervened and broke Sherrards hip while he was running away from defenders on like a 70+ yard pass play from Simms. That really, really sucked. Always been a 'what-if' for me. If he didn't get hurt, I doubt they lose the season finale against Dallas - that game was razor close - that would have re-shuffled the playoff order. That Giants team had the leagues #1 ranked defense. LT and Simms could have exited properly, with another SB trophy instead of humiliation in SF.
In the Second half McConkey with the towel running on the field you knew the Giants were going to win. They clobbered Denver and Elway in the second half.
He threw a lot of int's before that streach. Much was also written about how he was so much better after Shockey went down.
We were 10-6, and in the 6 losses, the largest margin of defeat was only 7 points....we were in every game.....
We beat the 49'ers in the playoffs, and then went to Chicago...it was the Bear's year, with that defense.....
After that loss, the Giants could have folded next season, or saw that they needed to play at an even higher level...they chose to do the latter.....
14-2...very close to an undefeated season.....the defense gave up 23 points in the playoffs in three games.....
But most important of all, their first SB win, and first championship in 30 years...the waiting was finally over.....
And because that steady growth was itself a culmination of the horrid years that led to the explosion in 1978 and the hiring of George Young.
So - 1986 was more than just a season. It was years of waiting - followed by steady great drafting by George Young (with no free agency) and the building of a truly dominating force on defense and an overall great team. I KNEW the Giants were winning in 1986 ten seconds after they lost to the Bears in 1985. Anyone who followed the steady buildup from 1979 knew the team was becoming stronger and stronger year after year. 1979 through 1986 - the most fantastic stretch of years in my lifetime all because of George Young and the Giants.
I like having them both and their reduxes of '90 and '11.
and u said u cant compare and u basically did brilliance of intense men
run the rock anytime we needed to not to mention we had
a number of deamons on special teams ...
I watched Paul Horning destroy us early 60's and to finally
get to the big game with Simms and LT it was like none other
etched in the mind forever .
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Eli manning was never terrible or very terrible or anything close to terrible. He was a winning, strong armed but still flawed young QB. Most young qbs struggle at times. Eli did too but he also won games and played well.
He threw a lot of int's before that streach. Much was also written about how he was so much better after Shockey went down.
Right, but he was far from terrible. We've all seen terrible. 2005-2006 Eli ain't it. Not even close.
Hey I know you! There was a documentary made about your life where Joe Pesci played you and Marissa Tomei played your GF: "My Cousin Vinny", right?
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
Some clown.
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86' was magical. My girlfriends father was a Jets fan and it was my senior year of High School. I lived in Southern Jersey. I knew more Eagle, Jets and Cowboy fans than Giants fans. My older sisters' boyfriend was a Niners fan who was miserable to me. My bus rides were hell for years because the Giants were bad for so long. I am from a large extended Italian family, and when they find a soft spot they bust balls like it is their fucking job and they are the best at it. My balls were busted for years and then......1986. Once they got in a groove at the end of the season, I knew they were going to win it all. I won bets with everyone I knew. It was the best year of my life. I busted EVERONES balls unmercifully, the apprentice surpassed the masters.
Hey I know you! There was a documentary made about your life where Joe Pesci played you and Marissa Tomei played your GF: "My Cousin Vinny", right?
Every italian cliche' in movies could describe my family. People came neighboring states when my grandmother cooked certain meals. I used get up early on Saturday mornings to help her start preparing for Sunday meals. I have made dough, made frsh pasta with her. If I told you my name and you googled it, there are some scary people that I never new were scary. Is what it is. You had to yell if you wanted to heard at those dinners....Fellow Italians from NJ back me up, we are all like that. The ball busting is an art form.
For the baby boomers, a long suffering bunch, that first
SB win was extra special. If you're a millennial, you might
feel differently!
07' season sucked. It really did. So did 2011.
The highs of the 07 and 11 playoffs are unparalleled though - 2007, I'd say is arguably the most exciting playoff run in history.
Honestly, since then, football hasn't held the same level of excitement for me. Once you've had the best something has to offer, what's left?
and you guys piss and moan because we have only won 2 in the last 9 years.
1986 was beyond great. It was like being in a dream.
I don't think this Rufus was even born in 1986, holy facacta!
Any jackazz can publish anything on the webz - ( New Window )
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"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
Some clown.
So in 77 and 78 Earhardt coached great offenses, what does that have to do with 1986 and how he ran that team under the direction of Bill Parcells?
Short on talent at WR, surely, so fucking play 2 TEs more you had Zeke Mowatt, possibly a top 10 TE in the league as your 2nd TE.
Did you watch that team? I was living in SF at the time and compared to Walsh's rendition of the WCO the Giants O was poorly managed. Parcells didn't trust Simms.
Wound up ranked 8th in points, 10th in yards, 6th ranked rushing offense in the league.
That offense did what it was supposed to. EAT CLOCK AND LOTS OF IT.
I kind of liked that philosophy myself...
IIRC, Parcells hated fumbles but wasn't that upset by downfield interceptions. There's the story of him saying to Simms "If you don't throw two interceptions today you're not taking enough chances." He liked the downfield passing game, as TC did.
And they'd score on D fairly often, too. That helped.
AP, give substance or just shut the fuck up. Bashing a post with zero grounded specific reasoning is the most useless childish garbage crap on the internet.
YOU SUCK!
NO YOU SUCK!
I SAID IT FIRST!!!
Jeez Louise...
The 8th in points scored is misleading I bet, because it doesn't subtract defensive scores but attributes all scoring to the "offense."
They weren't awful, but they were awful to watch and could have been much, much better and more efficient at, you know, scoring points. Parcels was practically obsessed with eating clock as opposed to scoring, IMO.
I kind of liked that philosophy myself...
The game was better then. Everybody got excited when a team would score during a defensive battle. Our last NFC Championship was like that. This league of non-stop scoring is more like a video game and feeds more to the fantasy fan at the expense of better played football.
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In comment 13029762 BlueLou said:
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"the offense struggling" early on or through much of the season, I have this to say about that '86 team.
And all you young 'uns who have bitched and continue to bitch about Kevin Gilbride's offense incorporated into TC's insistence on run/pass balance, please take note.
Bill Parcels' run on 1st and 2nd down no matter what Woody Hayes memorial philosophy and Ron Earhardt's offense was brutal. To hold back a QB like Phil Simms in his prime was almost tragic stupidity - except that it ended with Simms' 22/25 3 TD Superbowl.
G-d I cringed watching that offense of Earhardt's and Parcels'. Talk about predictable!!!
Gilbride's was an offensive genius like General Patton in comparison to those clowns dictating the '86 offense.
Whaaaat?? Do you recall that their best WR was Lionel Manuel, and that he didn't play from Week 5 until the playoffs? Who would you suggest he throw to? Earhardt a clown? Really? They were a running team with little talent at WR and a stud at TE in Bavaro. He ran the offense exactly as he should have, and exactly as Parcells wanted. And by the way, that clown's offense set the league record in '78 with NE 3,165 yards on the ground, and in '77 as Off Co his offense set the NFL single season scoring record that still stands with 589.
Some clown.
So in 77 and 78 Earhardt coached great offenses, what does that have to do with 1986 and how he ran that team under the direction of Bill Parcells?
Short on talent at WR, surely, so fucking play 2 TEs more you had Zeke Mowatt, possibly a top 10 TE in the league as your 2nd TE.
Did you watch that team? I was living in SF at the time and compared to Walsh's rendition of the WCO the Giants O was poorly managed. Parcells didn't trust Simms.
Lou I'm surprised at you. This post is ridiculous.
Do you think that Earhart forgot how to run an offense? Earhardt enacted the philosophy of his boss. And by the way, when he was OffCo at Pittsburgh, he turned Barry Foster into a star RB and had some people actually believing that Bubby Brister was an NFL QB.
Zeke Mowatt was coming off ACL surgery, missed all of '85 and wasn't right until the last quarter of the year when he began to take a bigger role.
If you're comparing the Giants to the 49ers you're a fool. Parcells and Walsh are polar opposites in football philosophy. Remember after the 1990 title game “What do you think of that West Coast Offense now?” When a reporter asked him if the Giants’ victory had “vindicated” their style of play, Parcells shot back, “It’s always been vindicated. It’s that new stuff that has something to prove.”
And in case you forgot, the Giants and their "poorly managed" offense beat the 49ers TWICE in 1986, once by 49-3 when they had everyone back.
"Parcells didn't trust Simms" is one of the dumbest statements ever made here. Parcells PROTECTED Simms by using their stellar running game and defense to win until Manuel came back and Mowatt was healthy. THAT is intelligent coaching.
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awful post, just awful
AP, give substance or just shut the fuck up. Bashing a post with zero grounded specific reasoning is the most useless childish garbage crap on the internet.
YOU SUCK!
NO YOU SUCK!
I SAID IT FIRST!!!
Jeez Louise...
The 8th in points scored is misleading I bet, because it doesn't subtract defensive scores but attributes all scoring to the "offense."
They weren't awful, but they were awful to watch and could have been much, much better and more efficient at, you know, scoring points. Parcels was practically obsessed with eating clock as opposed to scoring, IMO.
The team wound up +11 in turnovers (4th in the league) - browsing through the scoring for the year, you see a VERY consistent offense that could be counted on to put 17-21 points on the board every week - with that defense, much more than enough.
When the Giants played the 9ers on Monday night, why did the go into halftime down 17-0, and what did they change to flip that game around and win 21-17?
Let's fast forward a second to David Carr interviewing Rashad Jennings and his comment to Rashad (again on the topic of Eli's field generalship and how MacAdoo gives Eli freedom to change plays) about how smart Eli is, and how he has the freedom to audible to a pass play if the original running play requested from the sidelines looks like it will run "into a brick wall" - that was Carr's exact words.
That game was 17-0 Niners because the Fugazi Giants insisted on running into a brick wall all the first half as the 9ers were, IIRC, putting 9 guys in the box just to stop the Giants running game... and it worked.
For the second half the Giants came out passing against the 9ers tightly packed D and marched through them like a hot knife through room temperature butter.
They were idiots for not doing that earlier in the game. For not giving Phil the kind of options Eli has for changing plays at the LOS.
IMO. That's where my comment about BP not trusting Simms comes from.
And you are right to pick up that I really blame Parcels, not Earnhardt.
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
The Blind Slide included interviews with Walsh and Parcells, in which Walsh describes success on offense being about having a system, and Parcells describes success on defense being dependent on talent.
As for Simms, it's probably already been stated here but Walsh wanted him instead of Montana.
To this day I believe Phill Simms had the ability to be a better QB than Joe Montana, but had the bad luck of falling into an ass backwards offensive philosophy that 1) limited his opportunities to win titles and 2) kept him out of the hall of fame.
Phil was a great pure passer, saddled with shit for wideouts and an archaic offensive philosophy.
I don't see why having a great defense should be a justification for having a staid offense. Phil's lousy passing stats re TDs to INTs was largely because of that style of offense; not the predicate of why that offense was "smart" to run.
It's great to be able to run time of the clock at times, but what you should be aiming for on offense is to score points.
You realize that Walsh's teams won more titles than Parcels' right? You realize that some years under D coordinator Seifert the 9ers had one of the best Ds in the league, right? Was that treated by Walsh as reason to gear down and slow down his offense? Rubbish concepts. And I would argue that at times Walsh won with inferior talent.
You said the Giants offense was "poorly managed". No, it was not, it was run in a different style befitting a different football philosophy. You were obviously enamored of the WCO at the time, I was not, that's fine. I think the Giants ran the right offense for their philosophy and their geographical location and their personnel. And you still didn't tell me who Simms was supposed to throw it to with Manuel (best on NYG, avg otherwise) out and Mowatt recovering. Bobby Johnson was their #1, and McConkey wasn't even on the roster until week 5.
And I didn't tell you to piss off, so go fuck yourself (just kidding. We can agree to disagree).
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
Right - I said the defense was +11 in turnovers, FWIW, that was 5th in the league.
I believe the Giant offense was engineered around it's talents. That offensive line was excellent at run blocking, horrid at pass protection. 84' and 85' were career years for Simms in yardage, but he was sacked 55 and 52 times in each, respectively. By 86', Parcells/Earhardt shifted the offense accordingly, and Simms was sacked ONLY 45 times. For reference, Eli's WORST season - he was sacked 39 times in 2013. Let that sink in. The 1986 Giants offensive line was weaker in pass protection than the God-awful 2013 unit - and not by a little!
It wasn't a matter of Parcells not being bright enough to allow Phil to throw more, it was a matter of keeping Simms on the Sports page and off the Obituaries!
I give credit to Parcells to knowing his teams weaknesses and getting the absolute best out of what was a flawed offense.
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They were happy to play a style that would earn them 17-21 points per game when with their OL, Phil, Morris, and Bavaro and Galbreath they had enough weapons to score a good bit more.
As for only one defensive touchdown I know I should have said "points scored by the D or set up by defensive turnovers..." Because Martin's was the only one I could remember (during the regular season obviously) but I recall the D being "responsible" for more than just that by giving the O opportunities via TOs.
But I couldn't actually find the stay of points scored by the defense vis a fast Google search. Nice job.
Right - I said the defense was +11 in turnovers, FWIW, that was 5th in the league.
I believe the Giant offense was engineered around it's talents. That offensive line was excellent at run blocking, horrid at pass protection. 84' and 85' were career years for Simms in yardage, but he was sacked 55 and 52 times in each, respectively. By 86', Parcells/Earhardt shifted the offense accordingly, and Simms was sacked ONLY 45 times. For reference, Eli's WORST season - he was sacked 39 times in 2013. Let that sink in. The 1986 Giants offensive line was weaker in pass protection than the God-awful 2013 unit - and not by a little!
It wasn't a matter of Parcells not being bright enough to allow Phil to throw more, it was a matter of keeping Simms on the Sports page and off the Obituaries!
I give credit to Parcells to knowing his teams weaknesses and getting the absolute best out of what was a flawed offense.
Right. Play to your strengths. They were very weak at WR, no depth at TE while Mowatt was active but still recovering, and once they settled on Morris at RB and Carthon as lead blocker they were unstoppable on the ground. I loved watching them run at will.
But you are ignoring my example of the 9ers game on Monday night and completely ignoring my point about trusting Phil to change plays at the LOS to adjust to the defensive schemes and fronts the team was facing in real-time. Instead of adjusting as a half time remedy...
That OL didn't suck at pass blocking. They gave up a lot of sacks because that archaic offense didn't have 3 step drops and ways of getting the ball out of the QB's hands fast enough. And because damn near every time the DID pass it was 3rd and long. As for their "great" running game, weren't they middle of the pack in yards per rush? When your offense is obvious it's easier to defend...
Run, run, pass.
Run, run, pass.
How to make your QB
look like an ass!
Just hated that O philosophy. Let's aim to win by a late field goal!
But you are ignoring my example of the 9ers game on Monday night and completely ignoring my point about trusting Phil to change plays at the LOS to adjust to the defensive schemes and fronts the team was facing in real-time. Instead of adjusting as a half time remedy...
That OL didn't suck at pass blocking. They gave up a lot of sacks because that archaic offense didn't have 3 step drops and ways of getting the ball out of the QB's hands fast enough. And because damn near every time the DID pass it was 3rd and long. As for their "great" running game, weren't they middle of the pack in yards per rush? When your offense is obvious it's easier to defend...
Run, run, pass.
Run, run, pass.
How to make your QB
look like an ass!
Just hated that O philosophy. Let's aim to win by a late field goal!
Not ignoring your point Lou, just don't think in that era it was a prevalent as it is today. That really didn't become popular until Jim Kelly with Buffalo.
Nice rhyme though :-)
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
In 1984 and 85', Simms threw for 4044 and 3849 yards, respectively.
What was the difference? Simms had several more targets in 84', including Earnest Gray, a healthy Lionel Manuel, a healthy Zeke Mowatt, Byron Williams even pulled down a few hundred yards - that was the year they platooned Carpenter and Morris - those 2 combined for 1300 yards - it was an excellent, balanced offense and Simms thrived, again - his highest yeardage in a season.
85' still was diverse, with backs combining for over 1,000 receiving, Manuel with a solid 850 yards, Simms chucked for 3800+.
By 86, several key targets were gone, and Parcells knew they couldn't live with a quarterback spending half the game lying on his back. Really, the injuries to Mowatt and Manuel were the real game changers.
I've enjoyed going back through those stats. Nice to see the old names - Earnest Gray, Rob Carpenter - spotted Tom Mullady and John Mistler on that 84' roster.
Going through them though - really highlights one thing.
Phil Simms is one of the most underrated QB's in league history. He was CONSTANTLY under attack, never enjoyed a top-tier WR, had balls of steel - notoriously holding the ball far too long in his early years, waiting FOREVER for one of his shitty, shitty Wide Receivers to break free of coverage. He was fucking Braveheart. I truly believe, the best of the lot in that era.
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
Yes, Unitas, Starr and that era plays called by QB, not at the LOS but in the huddle. Then Tom Landry and Paul Brown popularized plays being called by the coaches. The Giants used hand signals. Kelly and the Bills began the shift towards what we have now with the QB constantly looking to change the play at the OL
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Actually I believe that was the norm in old times. Not sure about audibles, but didn't guys like Starr and Unitas call their own plays?
I agree Levy and Kelly popularized it to some extent. But the modern passing offense wasn't exactly "new" by 1986. Goes back to Sid Gilliam and the Rams.
In 1984 and 85', Simms threw for 4044 and 3849 yards, respectively.
What was the difference? Simms had several more targets in 84', including Earnest Gray, a healthy Lionel Manuel, a healthy Zeke Mowatt, Byron Williams even pulled down a few hundred yards - that was the year they platooned Carpenter and Morris - those 2 combined for 1300 yards - it was an excellent, balanced offense and Simms thrived, again - his highest yeardage in a season.
85' still was diverse, with backs combining for over 1,000 receiving, Manuel with a solid 850 yards, Simms chucked for 3800+.
By 86, several key targets were gone, and Parcells knew they couldn't live with a quarterback spending half the game lying on his back. Really, the injuries to Mowatt and Manuel were the real game changers.
I've enjoyed going back through those stats. Nice to see the old names - Earnest Gray, Rob Carpenter - spotted Tom Mullady and John Mistler on that 84' roster.
Going through them though - really highlights one thing.
Phil Simms is one of the most underrated QB's in league history. He was CONSTANTLY under attack, never enjoyed a top-tier WR, had balls of steel - notoriously holding the ball far too long in his early years, waiting FOREVER for one of his shitty, shitty Wide Receivers to break free of coverage. He was fucking Braveheart. I truly believe, the best of the lot in that era.
good post
Robinson's most notable game was in week 13 of the 1986 season, when the Giants were playing the 49ers on Monday Night Football. The Giants trailed 17-0 at halftime, but scored three touchdowns in the third quarter to win the game. Robinson caught the second touchdown, a 34-yard pass from Phil Simms, but he made an incredible grab[2] on a 49-yard pass from Phil Simms, down to the 1-yard line, to set up the Giants' final score. He finished with 5 catches for a career high 116 yards receiving as the Giants won 21-17.[3] The Giants went on to win Super Bowl XXI that season over the Denver Broncos, and Robinson caught three passes for a team high 62 receiving yards in the big game.[4]
Parcells/Young virtually ignored receiver in the draft. Lionel Manuel was a 7th rd pick. They got lucky with him. With the rest? They got what they paid for.
It wasn't until 87' - Mark Ingram, Stephen Baker - that the Giants finally addressed the position. Both were in line with the rest of the decade. Weak receivers, though Ingram did have one of the most memorable catch and runs in team history.
Really, when Simms finally got a top shelf receiver in Mike Sherrard, they immediately turned into the Giants most dangerous QB-receiver combination in a generation. The Gods quickly intervened and broke Sherrards hip while he was running away from defenders on like a 70+ yard pass play from Simms. That really, really sucked. Always been a 'what-if' for me. If he didn't get hurt, I doubt they lose the season finale against Dallas - that game was razor close - that would have re-shuffled the playoff order. That Giants team had the leagues #1 ranked defense. LT and Simms could have exited properly, with another SB trophy instead of humiliation in SF.