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Keys to this year's offense outside of Eli and OBJ

SGMen : 7/16/2016 4:33 pm
The key to this year's offense could be WR V. Cruz. If he recovers to be an 85-1050-7 TD guy, a solid #2 and clear improvement over WR Randle, this offense could truly get to the next level. We need some luck with injuries this year and our #1 hopeful is WR Cruz.

A second key is the TE position. I think we really have some possibilities here with TE W. Tye especially. With OBJ drawing and beating double coverages if our other positional players improve and /or heal this pass offense could be special.

My big question is our running game and who will start at RB. Does Jennings have another year left in him or does Dwarka need to step up? Who runs the ball?

This offense can be special if it stays healthy and the young guys develop.

What players do you think really need to step up?
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There is no one single key  
UberAlias : 7/17/2016 9:16 am : link
Despite the ranking, this was not an offense that ran up scores on anyone. With no major weapons beyond Odell, an erratic and below average running game, and average offensive line, this was not an elite offense, and somewhat inconsistent.

We know about Cruz and Shepard, so I won't discuss them.

I do think they want to make Shane Vereen a bigger part of the offense and we saw glympses of what he is capable of, at times. Similarly, there is potential in this group of young TEs. If someone outside of the receivers emerged as a legitimate pass catching threat, it could have a big impact on the offense.

With that said, if I had to state one key, I would propably point to the running game. The erratic running game has been holding the offense back for years. For the reasons I stated above, the offense is challenged to overcome unfavorable down and distance situations, and they have found themselves in those situations far too often at the hands of ineffective runs for no gains or losses.

We saw some signs of hope at the end of the season last year. Whatever it was, if they can find a way to build off of that and get some legitimacy to the running game, this could have a major impact to the offense, especially if in conjunction with one of the other adds mentioned. But a running game is transformative, meaning this offense is a whole different animal if they can run on you.
There is one key,  
oldog : 7/17/2016 10:27 am : link
and that is #10, E. Manning. All of the greats, think Peyton, Elway and Unitas, retained or regained their effectiveness after a period of less that peak performance, and led their teams back to the top. Eli has not been as clutch the last few years, though generally more productive. In 2011 he showed that he can pull a team together and lead it to victory even if those around him are not optimal. This year's team is better that sub-optimal, they are potential champions. The key, it is suggested, is whether Eli returns to championship form, performs in the clutch, and leads this group to the SB.
The reason I said Shepard is because his success (hopefully)  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2016 10:46 am : link
will allow Eli enough confidence to have more medium and long routes called within the Offense. Having the luxury of two guys like OBJ and Shepard who have enough speed and quick separation, Eli should have more options should the defense want to roll coverage one way or pressure him.

And if he feels he has a bit more time in pocket, he can hold for another second and see if one breaks free. If not, the WCO options should be available.

I don't think we can expect much more than just moderate improvements in the O-line (at best), but I do expect Defenses to be wary of our passing game which might just create the time Eli needs to light em' up.
RE: RE: Imo Flowers and Shephard are keys, as is the health of the OL.  
baadbill : 7/17/2016 11:00 am : link
In comment 13035114 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13035107 yatqb said:


Quote:


If an OT gets injured we could be in trouble unless we sign someone before the season begins.

Flowers must improve for sure and stay healthy. We do lack OL depth as do many teams. My hope is Hart shows enough to be a RT. I mean, if injuries hit we'd have to move Pugh to OT for sure.

And yes, I think Shepherd is key too. I have this feeling he'll be solid out of the gates as a 4th WR and develop into our #3 during the season. An effective #3.


Shepard is NOT going to be the #4 WR in game 1. He's the #2 from the get go and the ONLY question is if Cruz can be the #3 or whether he is damaged goods in which case he splits his time with Harris.
RE: The key to this offense is not Cruz  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13035445 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
Coming back to form. I think the OP's projected numbers are wildly optimistic and unrealistic if we want this team to be successful. Ideally, we will have too many options for teams to defend in the passing set. ODB and Shep should provide a ton of production or at least attn from the defense. Tye should be able to get open up the seam, Donnell can go up and get it and Vereen or Jennings coming out of the backfield is a handful for any team. Our pass blocking was pretty damn solid last year.

But if you want a "key" to the O, it's run blocking. We have a nice stable of backs. No real game breakers, but Jennings is reliable as an every down back as long as he's healthy, Vereen changes things as a receiving threat where they can split him out and Perkins as apparently our future full timer will be a dynamic back when giving Jennings a break assuming he can block. Who knows what Williams is gonna do. I'd like to believe he can thrive behind some good run blocking because him getting to the 2nd and 3rd levels sounds scary to me for other teams to have to deal with.

If we can get a viable, and consistent running game to go with what we can do through the air, we will be a top five offense in the league with arguably the most clutch an. You give Eli options to audible in and out of, he is literally the best an in the game. Then, it's all up to the defense.

Man I have a very good feeling about this year.
I am with you on the run blocking and our ability to essentially spread the ball around. I believe the left side of our OL will run block better than ever.

The right side of the OL will likely maybe only improve a shade because of coach Solari and just the fact that they have played together in this offense for more than just a year. Experience and continuity are big. I also wonder how much OG Hart develops. If this kid does come on maybe he does start at RT at some point. I doubt he does out of the gates this year as he is only 22 with one game under his belt but I'm hopeful he can show in spots, maybe be our short yardage tackle or guard.

But I disagree on Cruz. I think his coming back to form would put this offense over the top. If Eli has a short underneath wideout that he can trust and rely on more than Randle we'll see less turnovers and more 3rd and short conversions. I'm not sure how many interceptions Randle cost Eli but it was a lot more than should ever be. Cruz's comeback, if it does happen and reports are he has healed, would be huge.

As for Shepherd, I do believe he'll play right out of the gates and produce but as a #4 wideout. No way he starts over a healthy Cruz due to experience. Harris also will be year two in this offense and he is in his prime so he'll see the field as a wideout.

I think as the season progresses we'll hopefully see more of the youth out there producing: Perkins, Shepherd, Adams and so forth. That is the key to late season success as it changes up game film and just produces results. Young guys who step up and surprise, we need that kind of year. Amen.
RE: There is one key,  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13035522 oldog said:
Quote:
and that is #10, E. Manning. All of the greats, think Peyton, Elway and Unitas, retained or regained their effectiveness after a period of less that peak performance, and led their teams back to the top. Eli has not been as clutch the last few years, though generally more productive. In 2011 he showed that he can pull a team together and lead it to victory even if those around him are not optimal. This year's team is better that sub-optimal, they are potential champions. The key, it is suggested, is whether Eli returns to championship form, performs in the clutch, and leads this group to the SB.
I don't think Eli has been the problem the last two years by any means? He has been clutch and solid. He has lacked a run game and a enough redzone weapons to really score a lot. 2011, yes he was in the zone and out of this world. He took hits in 2011 and still hit Cruz and Nicks and Ballard!!

This year, I think he'll spread the ball around like never before. As for those that believe Shepherd is the #2 WR out of the gates I hope he shows enough to be that but he is a rookie and that is asking a lot.
Beckham was a #1 WR right out of the gates and many  
BlueLou : 7/17/2016 12:45 pm : link
in the org now compare Shepard to Beckham. I think Shepard is at worst WR #2.5 and only that if Cruz comes back 100% healthy.

This team is gonna rock if the OL improves.
I know that this thread is more about the offense but....  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 12:48 pm : link
One thing I've really thought about is how good this DL can be if it stays healthy and the youth develop.

I think the starting DL will be strong against the run. I think Vernon, Hankins and JPP will put pressure on the QB.

But a big key is how much the young guys develop as all good defenses rotate the DL's and use situational matchups.

We have to hope Bromley, Wynn and OWA produce. These guys have to be there to rotate in and be effective. Not just bodies. As a season goes on DL's can wear down but if you rotate or have backups that are almost as good as some of your starters you are in a much better position to beat teams down in the the last 10 minutes of a game.

Call me crazy, but I have this feeling that FB Whitlock, who has beefed up and had good pass rush in college and in flashes last year, well that he makes the team and becomes a defacto pass rusher. We need someone to surprise and be a superb pass rusher if even for 3rd and long and spot duty.

I'm not sure how you hold a roster spot for Whitlock given the numbers game but if this kid shows he can rush the passer no way he gets cut. If you can put pressure on a QB in this league you have a shot in every game. Can Whitlock at 250 pounds this year be a surprise guy? A guy who gets those 10 to 15 pass rush snaps a game? A guy who makes the team as the backup FB and special teamer plus pass rusher?

I have a good feeling about Whitlock. Anyone else?
The running game doesn't need to be great  
UberAlias : 7/17/2016 1:24 pm : link
But you really want to be able to run effectively against 7-man fronts, which you would hope they'll see a lot of as teams look to defend the passing game. This gives an edge to Manning in an area he already excels, which is the mental game that gets called at the line.

You also want to see the ability to pop a few long runs. Giants were tied for 22nd in the league in runs of 20 yards or more and had zero runs of 40 yards. That has to improve. More often than not, big runs = momentum and translate directly into points.
RE: The running game doesn't need to be great  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13035697 UberAlias said:
Quote:
But you really want to be able to run effectively against 7-man fronts, which you would hope they'll see a lot of as teams look to defend the passing game. This gives an edge to Manning in an area he already excels, which is the mental game that gets called at the line.

You also want to see the ability to pop a few long runs. Giants were tied for 22nd in the league in runs of 20 yards or more and had zero runs of 40 yards. That has to improve. More often than not, big runs = momentum and translate directly into points.
I really do believe we will have our best rushing year of the McAdoo offense era this year. I really believe the left side of our OL along with our TE and FB Johnson will open things up with better blocking.

It sucks that we could not sign UFA RT Penn as I think he still has a good year or two left in him and he can run block but you can't have everything.

I believe in coach Solari based on what I've read about him on this site. He has produced his whole career. He can motivate and is a great teacher.

If Newhouse and Jerry (who is so big) improve just a shade this offense will in fact run the ball well. I have a good feeling that RB Williams will run well behind a FB like Johnson. I also have a good feeling about RB Dwarka. Call me crazy but he looked good in spots last year and now he will know the offense.

My points are that this offense is now "mature" and has better blocking than any of the previous McAdoo offenses. If we are effective on the ground, and we will be, there is no doubt in my mind that things will be better for our passing game. And vice versa really.

I mean, if Eli is effective throwing things get easier for the run game. Keep moving the chains and getting first downs. Control the ball 35-38 minutes a game or something like that and don't turn it over. We just need that redzone offense to come alive. I think that happens this year with the addition of Johnson at FB; return of Cruz; and, development of TE position. Plus we have to hope a guy like Shepherd or even WR G. Davis or WR Dable (big guys) develop.

The Giants just need to stay healthy and for our youth to develop. I think it can happen and will happen this year. This will be our best offense of the Eli era, at least potentially.
'Keys to this year's offens'...  
Torrag : 7/17/2016 4:17 pm : link
...easy. RT and RG play plus the cruz wildcard.
RE: 'Keys to this year's offens'...  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 4:32 pm : link
In comment 13035801 Torrag said:
Quote:
...easy. RT and RG play plus the cruz wildcard.
Yeah, the right side of the OL needs to play at least a shade better than last year and I believe they will. The Giants new OL coach Solari should be a positive influence along with the fact that this offense is now "mature" in experience with McAdoo.

The wildcard for the right side is OG Hart, at least for short yardage offense since Jerry ain't much of a run blocker.

As for Cruz, yes he is a wildcard and I am betting he bounces back. Not like the guy he was in 2011-2012 but the Giants can maybe expect a good "get open" guy who feeds off OBJ. If he improves the #2 wideout spot in terms of making 3rd down conversions and not costing Eli interceptions like Randle did, we've upgraded.

WCO 3 step drops  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 6:37 pm : link
I believe the OL play will improve. I've noted this on many of my responses above.

I also think Eli should stick with the 3 step drops and work the field. We should have better and more varied passing options and that means we will move the ball better and hold it longer every game. This is kind of what the Patriots do.

We have one advantage as well: more speed with OBJ and now Shepherd in the passing game. If we run the ball effectively, and we will, even a 3 step drop and throw could lead to big plays down field. And if Eli has time and wants to hold it another half second cause he knows he can look for big plays.

I'm truly stoked for this season's offense.
RE: RE: To me, the number one key,  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/17/2016 8:08 pm : link
In comment 13035407 SGMen said:
Quote:
My only major contention is that I actually like Dwarka at RB. In spots he flashed last year and now he knows the offense.


I'm sorry to say that I think it unlikely that Darkwa makes the team -- his current injury may even make the choice moot.
RE: RE: RE: To me, the number one key,  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 8:15 pm : link
In comment 13035945 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13035407 SGMen said:


Quote:


My only major contention is that I actually like Dwarka at RB. In spots he flashed last year and now he knows the offense.



I'm sorry to say that I think it unlikely that Darkwa makes the team -- his current injury may even make the choice moot.
Ah, I did not know that Dwarka was currently injured. I log onto BBI sporadically, this weekend being one where I have spent some time.

I wonder if he recovers in time for camp? I like the guy, saw flashes last year and figure he now knows the offense well so it gives him an advantage.

In truth, my hope is that Perkins really flashes in camp and gets carries right away. I mean, we could use one of those "drafts" where all the picks produce year #1, especially Apple, Shepherd and Perkins with Adams coming through as the year moves on to.
RE: RE: There is one key,  
baadbill : 7/17/2016 8:46 pm : link
In comment 13035618 SGMen said:
Quote:
As for those that believe Shepherd is the #2 WR out of the gates I hope he shows enough to be that but he is a rookie and that is asking a lot.


And the reason he'll be the #2 is pretty obvious. If not Shepard (and ignoring Cruz for the moment), then who? If there is any WR on this roster better than Shepard (other than Cruz), then this team is in deep doo doo.

If it isn't Beckham - Shepard - Cruz then it is Cruz who won't be part of the trio - Shepard is a given (and as I said, if he is the #4 as OP suggests (not due to injury), then there is a serious, serious problem. The question isn't Shepard - it's Cruz.
RE: RE: RE: There is one key,  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 9:21 pm : link
In comment 13035986 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13035618 SGMen said:


Quote:


As for those that believe Shepherd is the #2 WR out of the gates I hope he shows enough to be that but he is a rookie and that is asking a lot.



And the reason he'll be the #2 is pretty obvious. If not Shepard (and ignoring Cruz for the moment), then who? If there is any WR on this roster better than Shepard (other than Cruz), then this team is in deep doo doo.

If it isn't Beckham - Shepard - Cruz then it is Cruz who won't be part of the trio - Shepard is a given (and as I said, if he is the #4 as OP suggests (not due to injury), then there is a serious, serious problem. The question isn't Shepard - it's Cruz.
I just am never sold on rookies starting. I figure work your way into the lineup. But I'm reading from another thread how good Shepherd looks so maybe at worst he is the #3 should Crz in fact bounce back nicely. Bottom line: I pray Shepherd is legit, a "mini OBJ" in the sense that he flourishes as a rookie wideout. We need some serious luck.
RE: RE: RE: RE: There is one key,  
baadbill : 7/17/2016 10:06 pm : link
In comment 13036013 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13035986 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13035618 SGMen said:


Quote:


As for those that believe Shepherd is the #2 WR out of the gates I hope he shows enough to be that but he is a rookie and that is asking a lot.



And the reason he'll be the #2 is pretty obvious. If not Shepard (and ignoring Cruz for the moment), then who? If there is any WR on this roster better than Shepard (other than Cruz), then this team is in deep doo doo.

If it isn't Beckham - Shepard - Cruz then it is Cruz who won't be part of the trio - Shepard is a given (and as I said, if he is the #4 as OP suggests (not due to injury), then there is a serious, serious problem. The question isn't Shepard - it's Cruz.

I just am never sold on rookies starting. I figure work your way into the lineup. But I'm reading from another thread how good Shepherd looks so maybe at worst he is the #3 should Crz in fact bounce back nicely. Bottom line: I pray Shepherd is legit, a "mini OBJ" in the sense that he flourishes as a rookie wideout. We need some serious luck.


But that really isn't the point. There isn't another WR on the roster that would start for any team in the league. As I said - if not Shepard, then who? There is ZERO legitimate competition.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There is one key,  
SGMen : 7/17/2016 11:26 pm : link
In comment 13036044 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13036013 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 13035986 baadbill said:


Quote:


In comment 13035618 SGMen said:


Quote:


As for those that believe Shepherd is the #2 WR out of the gates I hope he shows enough to be that but he is a rookie and that is asking a lot.



And the reason he'll be the #2 is pretty obvious. If not Shepard (and ignoring Cruz for the moment), then who? If there is any WR on this roster better than Shepard (other than Cruz), then this team is in deep doo doo.

If it isn't Beckham - Shepard - Cruz then it is Cruz who won't be part of the trio - Shepard is a given (and as I said, if he is the #4 as OP suggests (not due to injury), then there is a serious, serious problem. The question isn't Shepard - it's Cruz.

I just am never sold on rookies starting. I figure work your way into the lineup. But I'm reading from another thread how good Shepherd looks so maybe at worst he is the #3 should Crz in fact bounce back nicely. Bottom line: I pray Shepherd is legit, a "mini OBJ" in the sense that he flourishes as a rookie wideout. We need some serious luck.



But that really isn't the point. There isn't another WR on the roster that would start for any team in the league. As I said - if not Shepard, then who? There is ZERO legitimate competition.
You know what, you are right that we have no other legit starting receiver if not Cruz - lol. But if Cruz isn't back and ready then yes it has to be Shepherd.

I'm being overly optimistic with Cruz given his injuriies but I have to believe. I just have to believe.
I read a bit more on WR Shepherd today  
SGMen : 7/18/2016 1:01 pm : link
He has tools indeed and looked good in mini-camp. When you hear chatter that a rookie may be your #2 that is good news. It says he has talent and just needs to learn on the field.

Not to beat a dead horse over and over but I still think we need WR Cruz to win the #2 role. If Cruz is healthy enough to be the #2 and is an upgrade to Randle due to route running creating less turnovers this offense is going to be special.

Let Shepherd learn in the #3 role this year.

Finally, we still have WR and ST ace Harris at #4 wideout. The potential is there we just have to hope for quick learners and health.
RE: I read a bit more on WR Shepherd today  
baadbill : 7/18/2016 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13036647 SGMen said:
Quote:
He has tools indeed and looked good in mini-camp. When you hear chatter that a rookie may be your #2 that is good news. It says he has talent and just needs to learn on the field.

Not to beat a dead horse over and over but I still think we need WR Cruz to win the #2 role. If Cruz is healthy enough to be the #2 and is an upgrade to Randle due to route running creating less turnovers this offense is going to be special.

Let Shepherd learn in the #3 role this year.

Finally, we still have WR and ST ace Harris at #4 wideout. The potential is there we just have to hope for quick learners and health.


In today's NFL and with this Giant's offense, I just don't think in terms of a #1, 2 or 3 WR. The Giants are likely to have 3 WR on the field for the overwhelming percentage of snaps - and who gets the ball will be a function of how the D is playing them. All 3 WR will be equally critical to the success of each other. The Guants have 2 of the 3 in Beckham and Shepard. The only open question is whether Cruz can complete the starting trio. If not - there's a huge drop off to Harris.
RE: RE: I read a bit more on WR Shepherd today  
SGMen : 7/18/2016 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13036692 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 13036647 SGMen said:


Quote:


He has tools indeed and looked good in mini-camp. When you hear chatter that a rookie may be your #2 that is good news. It says he has talent and just needs to learn on the field.

Not to beat a dead horse over and over but I still think we need WR Cruz to win the #2 role. If Cruz is healthy enough to be the #2 and is an upgrade to Randle due to route running creating less turnovers this offense is going to be special.

Let Shepherd learn in the #3 role this year.

Finally, we still have WR and ST ace Harris at #4 wideout. The potential is there we just have to hope for quick learners and health.



In today's NFL and with this Giant's offense, I just don't think in terms of a #1, 2 or 3 WR. The Giants are likely to have 3 WR on the field for the overwhelming percentage of snaps - and who gets the ball will be a function of how the D is playing them. All 3 WR will be equally critical to the success of each other. The Guants have 2 of the 3 in Beckham and Shepard. The only open question is whether Cruz can complete the starting trio. If not - there's a huge drop off to Harris.
I agree that WR Harris is a drop off but he is serviceable. You could live with him, especially because he is now year #2 in this offense and had more experience running routes and receiving last year than ever before in his career.

But the reality is that Harris is on this team for his superb special teams ability. That is a fact.
OC Brett Jones  
SGMen : 7/18/2016 2:45 pm : link
The ex Canadian league superstar bulked up this off-season. He now has a training camp under his belt and an off-season to learn how OL is played in the NFL. He was so dominant in Canada that when we signed him I thought for sure he'd be no worse than a #1 backup center with serviceable starter ability in the NFL.

Anyone know anything about him in terms of whether he sticks as the #2 OC and possibly play OG in a pinch?
RE: OC Brett Jones  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/18/2016 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13036876 SGMen said:
Quote:
The ex Canadian league superstar bulked up this off-season. He now has a training camp under his belt and an off-season to learn how OL is played in the NFL. He was so dominant in Canada that when we signed him I thought for sure he'd be no worse than a #1 backup center with serviceable starter ability in the NFL.

Anyone know anything about him in terms of whether he sticks as the #2 OC and possibly play OG in a pinch?


Yeah - he wasn't running with the first or second team this spring
A running game  
The Tempest : 7/18/2016 3:19 pm : link
15+ carries by one RB averaging over 4 yards a carry per game.
RE: RE: OC Brett Jones  
SGMen : 7/18/2016 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13036935 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13036876 SGMen said:


Quote:


The ex Canadian league superstar bulked up this off-season. He now has a training camp under his belt and an off-season to learn how OL is played in the NFL. He was so dominant in Canada that when we signed him I thought for sure he'd be no worse than a #1 backup center with serviceable starter ability in the NFL.

Anyone know anything about him in terms of whether he sticks as the #2 OC and possibly play OG in a pinch?



Yeah - he wasn't running with the first or second team this spring
That is obviously not a good sign then. Sometimes, you can get hyped about a guy based on "potential" and so forth. Hey, I guess we will know more by the first preseason game, if he plays or not.
RE: A running game  
SGMen : 7/18/2016 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13036943 The Tempest said:
Quote:
15+ carries by one RB averaging over 4 yards a carry per game.
Lets hope for that much and no fumbles either. Based on what I've read and my hopes, I think Jennings does in fact start the season; RB Williams is change of pace with FB Johnson on the field with him; Vereen on 3rd downs; and, more and more of RB Perkins as the season moves along.
Interesting article on Manning and the deep ball  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 5:10 pm : link
I didn't realize that Eli was this efficient when he throws the long ball. I mean, I know the long ball is the best part of his game along with having veins of ice but with this kind of stat you have to think we'll throw deep more.
Deep Ball - ( New Window )
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