I say it is FS. We just don't have a proven guy. I believe L. Collins, D. Thompson and N. Behre are all more "in the box" safeties. I believe B. Jackson has the most pure FS talent, to play middle fielder, but he is coming off an ACL and has never played FS for a full season in the NFL.
The next position of weakness is LB. I'm not too happy with Thomas though I'm hopeful with better DL play he shows better.
What position do you think is weakest and most need of upgrade?
SS - he has to prove more
3-GAP DT - who plays well there?
I think we are actually strong only at SS. Our starting defense might be able to stick things out but God forbid we get hit with injuries.
I do have high hopes that DE OWA and DT Bromley wll develop this year and show why they were early picks. You really need rotation on the DL to make it through a year and be able to attack in fourth quarters.
I am hoping however that somehow Reese gets a proven veteran FS before July ends. LOL.
I'm hoping that Thompson wins the FS position and solidifies the secondary for us, but that's certainly a question mark as well...although we do have some depth there if some of the other FS candidates stay healthy.
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He has no excuse now. He has an all-star team back there, with Jenkins, Snacks, Vernon, JPP, Collins, Apple, Hankins, and DRC.
Sure, Spags must come up with superb game plans and I believe he usually does. I'm not too worried about the defensive coaching right now.
I am hoping however that somehow Reese gets a proven veteran FS before July ends. LOL.
All the proven FS's that are going to be available, are the ones who have proven it many years ago. I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I do not want an aging veteran taking snaps away from Thompson or Behre. I'd rather let them sink or swim and see what we have.
Sorry to hear you have tangled with the hospital -- I hope you mend well and quickly -- but it's a silver lining for us that you are bored and need an outlet. This place really needs perceptive and intelligent discussion about the Giants. I appreciate your attempts to keep a perceptive and intelligent dialogue going!
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In comment 13037354 PatersonPlank said:
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He has no excuse now. He has an all-star team back there, with Jenkins, Snacks, Vernon, JPP, Collins, Apple, Hankins, and DRC.
Sure, Spags must come up with superb game plans and I believe he usually does. I'm not too worried about the defensive coaching right now.
I am hoping however that somehow Reese gets a proven veteran FS before July ends. LOL.
All the proven FS's that are going to be available, are the ones who have proven it many years ago. I'm going to have to disagree with you there, I do not want an aging veteran taking snaps away from Thompson or Behre. I'd rather let them sink or swim and see what we have.
S L. Collins plays out of positon last year and it showed. He was horrible against the pass. I don't want to see that again.
Thompson seems talented enough to be really good in the FS role. I've seen conflicting ideas about whether he should be FS or SS. Either way, I think he and Collins complement each other rather than compete based on their tools and abilities.
The starting LB corp will probably be Robinson, Sheppard and Kennard, the depth is the wildcard. The greatest mystery is the impact coach McGovern will have on Herzlich and Bars because we need better mensurables on a LB we expect to cover the TE. I can't put much faith in a 6'1" player no matter how gifted covering another athlete 6'6" or better. Remembering physics Mass x Speed= Force, mass and size are usually synonymous thus creating a natural disadvantage.
Therein lies what I perceive to be the greatest weakness on Defense. Who can assume the duties of cover LB behind Robinson, Kennard? The Giants have been without LB coach of McGovern prowess for a long time, and there lies the mystery. Many want to write Herzlich off but his play has improved as he has further distanced from his illness. Being reunited with his college coach where he was a beast pre-injury could be a revelation. We know Herzlich can run, you can't be a special teams ace otherwise, which is a necessity for coverage.
To those who think Thompson is a better in box safety, I defer to the interview with Boise St. HC on Big Blue Kickoff. In which he spoke of Thompson's preparedness being his greatest attribute in allowing his athleticism and instinct manifest themselves on the field. Allowing him to fulfill any role demanded in order to be on the field. As for Bennett Jackson I think he will be more of hybrid corner safety, who has shown prowess as a slot corner.
Does that count ? That sound like a "box safety" ?
Does that count ? That sound like a "box safety" ?
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He's more of a free safety. He had a lot of picks in college so he shows he can play a little center field. I expect him to win the starting job
A poster whose judgment I trust (nflscouting) wrote something to the effect that D. Thompson would be better "in the box" and I recall reading draft day reports saying the same. That doesn't mean he couldn't play mid-fielder but it may not be where he is best suited.
You're mistaken...unless there was another report where Dave Te contradicted himself. Here is the stuff on Thompson from his Gian5s draft review:
Going into the offseason following the disappointing 2014 season, the Giants parted ways with super bowl champion safety Antrel Rolle and his departure left a gap that was certainly not filled by anyone in particular. Landon Collins, last year’s first round selection struggled playing the free safety spot, which he occupied by necessity after the injuries to safeties Bennett Jackson and Nat Berhe during training camp. Collins' natural position is at strong safety where he could play in the box and deal out punishing hits to the opposition. Darian Thompson will compete for one of the starting safety spots from day one as his competition (Jackson, Berhe) is just as inexperienced as him. His ball hawking skills while playing for the Broncos landed him ninteen interceptions over the course of his collegiate career, a feat that the Giants certainly took notice of. With his, at times, questionable coverage skills however, receivers frequently beat him deep in college when he gambled and did not produce a pass breakup or interception.
My Grade: C+
Clearly one of the biggest needs for the Giants is at free safety but I'm not entirely sure Darian Thompson will fill that need, at least in the short run. His ability to produce turnovers are well documented but any expectation of him being excelling right away deep safety opposite Landon Collins should be quelled because he simply allowed too many receivers get behind him while playing on the blue turf of Boise State. It is very possible he wins the starting free safety job that is up for grabs, but Giants fans should expect to see him get beat if he does not come away with an interception because he does not possess the speed to make up for bad roll of the dice. He certainly has room to improve in that area.
Here is from the same guy who graded the Giants offseason:
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Insights into all things football, baseball, and basketball
NFC East
NFL Offseason Grades: New York Giants
image description TYLER DAVIS MAY 8, 2016 Follow Tyler
​​
William Hauser-USA TODAY Sports
​​Free Agency ​
Additions:
CB Janoris Jenkins, DT Damon Harrison, DE Olivier Vernon
​The Giants went on a spending spree this offseason. The GM finally decided to spend some money, and they did it in the exact right places. Harrison will be a force in the center of this defense as he eats up double teams. He will also take pressure off of Jason Pierre-Paul, Olivier Vernon, and Jonathan Hankins. This will be a line that we are used to seeing in New York. They will dminate the point of attack. Jenkins will be able to line up opposite of Dominique Rogers-Cromartie and shut down half the field. They will be an elite duo in the secondary. Vernon may have been overpaid, but he is a solid end that will look even better with the help of the other elite players on the line. He will face few double teams and has the skill and strength to be very effective on every down.
OFFSEASON GRADE: A-
​​NFL Draft​
RD 1: CB Eli Apple, Ohio State
RD 2: WR Sterling Shepard, Oklahoma
RD 3: FS Darian Thompson, Boise State
RD 4: LB BJ Goodson, Clemson
RD 5: HB Paul Perkins, UCLA
RD 6: TE Jerrell Adams, South Carolina
The Giants also managed a fair haul in the draft to help their team. The pick of Eli Apple is curious as he is an out side corner, as are Jenkins and Rogers-Ceomartie. However they could develop him into the slot corner in camp as he is quick and has strong hands off the snap. His technique will fit in well in this secondary.
In the second round, the Giants stole a receiver with the potential to be a star. Shepard will fit right into the slot receiver role of this offense and give Eli Manning a reliable option other than Odell Beckham Jr. If Victor Cruz can get back to his old form, then the Giants will have a terror of a receiving trio to compliment Eli Manning.
They followed this with two picks to further bolster the defensive side of the ball. Thompson can come in and play free safety, which will allow Landon Collins to move to strong safety where he is better suited. Thompson is able to play center field and has solid cover skills. After some coaching up, he will be great. BJ Goodson will bring a thumping presence to this defense that it has missed in its line backing corps.
I think we might be better than we thought at FS. With Landon governing the box and good corners, im positive about this group.
Agree. Spags has alot to prove
2. Inexperience at SS/FS
3. Unproven pass rushers other JPP and Vernon
You can't have depth in this era of the cap. Besides you guys want Bob lily and Mean Joe Green backing up the defensive tackles.
Fact is, the depth is pretty sensation given the circumatances.
DE ..odi, Wynn
Dt.. Bromley, FA
CB.. Apple, Wade
LB.. Brinkley, Robinson, Kennard, Cassillas, Thomas, Sheperd (pick your starters )
Safety (see above)
Sure we're going to be hurt if Vernon, Harrison, Hankins, JPP, Cromartie or Janoris are hurt. But once you pay a qb 20 million per year finite resources do not provide enough to have starters on the bench.
Spare me the "nobody has LBs that can cover" because teams are clearly more talented than the Giants at this...
having a situational MLB is never good
He played almost exclusively SS in college, that's where the projections come in. Can he be a ballhawk while also maintaining deep responsibility?
Kind of ruined my day.
I guess I need to go back and read ALL the Giant draft reviews.
Anyway, from your OP:
Are you serious? Bennett Jackson has never played FS at all, on any level. He's also coming off his second torn ACL. He hasn't done a damned thing in two years. Maybe if he had, the Giants wouldn't have spent another 5th Round pick on Safety Mykkele Thompson in 2015, or a 3rd Round pick on Safety Darian Thompson in 2016. I just don't get the love for Jackson (especially from Pat Traina), a guy whose claim to fame is that he was a good special teams player in college three years ago.
Kind of ruined my day.
I guess I need to go back and read ALL the Giant draft reviews.
Ivan, start here. Not a draft review, but a pre-draft assessment of Thompson from a Jags blogger (with video clips).
Here's the thing with Thompson. After having an excellent week at the Senior Bowl, where he drew all kinds of praise and was named the North's Outstanding Player, he did not run well at the Combine (it was reported afterwards that he was sick. He ran much better at his Pro Day). For many pundits, Slow = SS. His draft stock dropped like a stone after the Combine, and even some of the more reasonable pundits, like Lance Zierlein at NFL.com, relegated him to an in-the-box role.
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In comment 13037337 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
He's more of a free safety. He had a lot of picks in college so he shows he can play a little center field. I expect him to win the starting job
A poster whose judgment I trust (nflscouting) wrote something to the effect that D. Thompson would be better "in the box" and I recall reading draft day reports saying the same. That doesn't mean he couldn't play mid-fielder but it may not be where he is best suited.
You're mistaken...unless there was another report where Dave Te contradicted himself. Here is the stuff on Thompson from his Gian5s draft review:
Going into the offseason following the disappointing 2014 season, the Giants parted ways with super bowl champion safety Antrel Rolle and his departure left a gap that was certainly not filled by anyone in particular. Landon Collins, last year’s first round selection struggled playing the free safety spot, which he occupied by necessity after the injuries to safeties Bennett Jackson and Nat Berhe during training camp. Collins' natural position is at strong safety where he could play in the box and deal out punishing hits to the opposition. Darian Thompson will compete for one of the starting safety spots from day one as his competition (Jackson, Berhe) is just as inexperienced as him. His ball hawking skills while playing for the Broncos landed him ninteen interceptions over the course of his collegiate career, a feat that the Giants certainly took notice of. With his, at times, questionable coverage skills however, receivers frequently beat him deep in college when he gambled and did not produce a pass breakup or interception.
My Grade: C+
Clearly one of the biggest needs for the Giants is at free safety but I'm not entirely sure Darian Thompson will fill that need, at least in the short run. His ability to produce turnovers are well documented but any expectation of him being excelling right away deep safety opposite Landon Collins should be quelled because he simply allowed too many receivers get behind him while playing on the blue turf of Boise State. It is very possible he wins the starting free safety job that is up for grabs, but Giants fans should expect to see him get beat if he does not come away with an interception because he does not possess the speed to make up for bad roll of the dice. He certainly has room to improve in that area.
Here is from the same guy who graded the Giants offseason:
Close
© 2016 The Sports Ticker
Advertise Here Flag
MenuSubscribe To Blog
image description
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Insights into all things football, baseball, and basketball
NFC East
NFL Offseason Grades: New York Giants
image description TYLER DAVIS MAY 8, 2016 Follow Tyler
​​
William Hauser-USA TODAY Sports
​​Free Agency ​
Additions:
CB Janoris Jenkins, DT Damon Harrison, DE Olivier Vernon
​The Giants went on a spending spree this offseason. The GM finally decided to spend some money, and they did it in the exact right places. Harrison will be a force in the center of this defense as he eats up double teams. He will also take pressure off of Jason Pierre-Paul, Olivier Vernon, and Jonathan Hankins. This will be a line that we are used to seeing in New York. They will dminate the point of attack. Jenkins will be able to line up opposite of Dominique Rogers-Cromartie and shut down half the field. They will be an elite duo in the secondary. Vernon may have been overpaid, but he is a solid end that will look even better with the help of the other elite players on the line. He will face few double teams and has the skill and strength to be very effective on every down.
OFFSEASON GRADE: A-
​​NFL Draft​
RD 1: CB Eli Apple, Ohio State
RD 2: WR Sterling Shepard, Oklahoma
RD 3: FS Darian Thompson, Boise State
RD 4: LB BJ Goodson, Clemson
RD 5: HB Paul Perkins, UCLA
RD 6: TE Jerrell Adams, South Carolina
The Giants also managed a fair haul in the draft to help their team. The pick of Eli Apple is curious as he is an out side corner, as are Jenkins and Rogers-Ceomartie. However they could develop him into the slot corner in camp as he is quick and has strong hands off the snap. His technique will fit in well in this secondary.
In the second round, the Giants stole a receiver with the potential to be a star. Shepard will fit right into the slot receiver role of this offense and give Eli Manning a reliable option other than Odell Beckham Jr. If Victor Cruz can get back to his old form, then the Giants will have a terror of a receiving trio to compliment Eli Manning.
They followed this with two picks to further bolster the defensive side of the ball. Thompson can come in and play free safety, which will allow Landon Collins to move to strong safety where he is better suited. Thompson is able to play center field and has solid cover skills. After some coaching up, he will be great. BJ Goodson will bring a thumping presence to this defense that it has missed in its line backing corps.
I think we might be better than we thought at FS. With Landon governing the box and good corners, im positive about this group.
I think we'll have four safeties active on game day due to special teams and dime defense roles. I believe as of right now based on what I've read and of course health that the "in the box" strong safety will definitely be L. Collins and he will excel in that role. I also think L. Collins will be used as a blitzer as Spags will use our improved speed to do what must be done in today's NFL: apply pressure on the QB.
As noted, I now believe B. Jackson becomes the FS with rookie D. Thompson behind him learning and getting at least some snaps in dime sets.
I also truly believe that S N. Behre will be active on game days and also get some defensive snaps. This kid can play and hit.
I'm not sure if our injured from last year recover, Mykele with the achilles and C. Taylor with his surgery. Will they be able to compete? Will we carry five safeties should say B. Jackson be considered a nickel corner as well?
There are a lot of questions which will be answered in camp. Health, injuries and development will play a big role in determining how things pan out. I still have an idea in my mind that if a solid veteran was being waved for trade bait early in camp due to salary and young guys behind him would the Giants make a trade? Not so sure they would. We have a mix of bodies and talent, mostly "in the box" safeties, and hey who is to say we don't trade that way?
Lastly, I do believe LB Goodson learns this year. He is a pure MLB but I think we play him at both MLB and SLB this year to make him more versatile and justify his being active on game days.
On paper, I really like this draft. It seems like we took guys who are of good character, with upside (Apple, Sheppard, Thompson, Perkins, Goodson, Adams) who produced in college. I'm looking forward to the camp reports; pre-season games; evaluations; and of course game 1 in Dallas.
I honestly believe this offense will be extremely efficient if healthy. We will improve our run game and redzone TD efficiency. Dallas's defense is not very good, at least on paper and based on what ESPN said, so we should score on them pretty good. I think our DL and corners will stack up well against Dallas's offense. S L. Collins will keep Elliott in check too as I think he'll be keying on him.
This team has finally drafted well, I believe, since 2014. Injuries have been a big factor so get healthy, stay healthy and with year #3 of the offense and year #2 of the defense lets excel and attack.
Giants 38-31 over Dallas opening day! Woot Woot!
He played almost exclusively SS in college, that's where the projections come in. Can he be a ballhawk while also maintaining deep responsibility?
Yeeaahh...that's how he broke the record for interceptions - playing almost exclusively in-the-box. Great post.
-Pass rushing LB's (i.e. those who can blitz well)
-Slot corner (will Jenkins just do this on 3 CB sets? Apple unproven there)
-FS (I think one of them will work out but obviously a lot of questions).
-Pass rushing LB's (i.e. those who can blitz well)
-Slot corner (will Jenkins just do this on 3 CB sets? Apple unproven there)
-FS (I think one of them will work out but obviously a lot of questions).
I believe CB Jenkins plays the slot all year with Apple on the outside. In today's NFL, 3 corners are out there maybe 85% of the time as teams seem to run 3 WR sets due to passing rules (just my guess, not any official stat). I know that Apple will also be learning the slot in camp along with Wade (I believe he's our #4 corner) and possibly B. Jackson who will likely win the FS job if healthy.
I do believe LB Kennard, LB Robinson can blitz. Kennard has flashed when healthy. LB Robinson is fast and also flashed when healthy. The problem is we are never healthy! We lack depth of merit at LB. I mean, would anyone be shocked if this year Goodson ended up winning the backup MLB role behind Robinson? Brinkley becomes a last second cut who is told to stay in shape? We just lack depth of talent. But I do think the starters have speed and ability behind a good DL.
Look for LB J Thomas to look better behind a DL that can handle blockers and stop the run better. He is more of a sideline to sideline guy. Robinson can cover and we haven't had a MLB that does that well in a long time. Kennard just has to stay healthy.
If you ask me, I still think our biggest hole overall is our lack of health and lack of PROVEN depth. We have to hope we get healthy, stay healthy and that the young guys are in fact PLAYERS. If that happens, this defense will go from 32nd in the league (worst) to serviceable at least.
And remember, I still think Reese is looking around for veteran depth as we have money. Will anyone shake loose? Maybe. I'm not counting on it but if a veteran RT, FS, DT, LB were being made available and the price was right I wouldn't be shocked if Reese pulled the trigger. It would have to be early in camp I'd think. If a veteran is an early cut due to the numbers game I'm sure Reese would look as well. But as of right now, in truth, I think we will be going with who we have.
The starters aren't all that bad. They just have to stay healthy. No team in our division is perfect so we have as good a chance as anyone. I mean, Washington isn't as good as their 9-7 record of last year when you consider every good team crushed them. Dallas has the division's best offense, I believe, but only if Romo stays healthy and lets face it at 36 with surgeries galore I'm not so sure he stands 16 games anymore..
Dallas got Elliott, if you listen to Jerry Jones interview on ESPN, in large part because he can do all 3 phases: protect Romo, run and catch. Jones fell in love with Elliott for that reason. But is Elliott a product of a great team or did he make the team great? That remains to be seen.
Thompson played all over the place at Boise State, but was primarily a FS, which is why places like Draft Scout have him listed as a FS.
Thompson played all over the place at Boise State, but was primarily a FS, which is why places like Draft Scout have him listed as a FS.
I'd be worried if he was our opening day starter against Dallas due to inexperience and speed. Look at L. Collins last year, horrible in pass coverage as a FS because of inexperience. I'd prefer veteran B. Jackson and his speed, let Thompson learn. I think we'll mix up four safeties on game day due to dime defenses and special teams ability.
This. I would say we don't know if Safety is a hole yet... it is TBD
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I've done my homework on you, and the conclusion was "Bullshit Artist."
Thompson played all over the place at Boise State, but was primarily a FS, which is why places like Draft Scout have him listed as a FS.
Yes, if you read the scouting reports on Thompson he did play "safety" all over and is a ball hawk but the reports also admit he lacks true make up speed and did let guys get behind him. He has a lot to learn still, as all rookies do.
I'd be worried if he was our opening day starter against Dallas due to inexperience and speed. Look at L. Collins last year, horrible in pass coverage as a FS because of inexperience. I'd prefer veteran B. Jackson and his speed, let Thompson learn. I think we'll mix up four safeties on game day due to dime defenses and special teams ability.
You're worried about Darian Thompson but you're all for Bennett Jackson. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous, and the comparison to Landon Collins is ridiculous, too.
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-DL depth especially at DT
-Pass rushing LB's (i.e. those who can blitz well)
-Slot corner (will Jenkins just do this on 3 CB sets? Apple unproven there)
-FS (I think one of them will work out but obviously a lot of questions).
Our only backup DT of any merit is Bromley and he has never started so yes our depth is questionable.
I believe CB Jenkins plays the slot all year with Apple on the outside. In today's NFL, 3 corners are out there maybe 85% of the time as teams seem to run 3 WR sets due to passing rules (just my guess, not any official stat). I know that Apple will also be learning the slot in camp along with Wade (I believe he's our #4 corner) and possibly B. Jackson who will likely win the FS job if healthy.
I do believe LB Kennard, LB Robinson can blitz. Kennard has flashed when healthy. LB Robinson is fast and also flashed when healthy. The problem is we are never healthy! We lack depth of merit at LB. I mean, would anyone be shocked if this year Goodson ended up winning the backup MLB role behind Robinson? Brinkley becomes a last second cut who is told to stay in shape? We just lack depth of talent. But I do think the starters have speed and ability behind a good DL.
Look for LB J Thomas to look better behind a DL that can handle blockers and stop the run better. He is more of a sideline to sideline guy. Robinson can cover and we haven't had a MLB that does that well in a long time. Kennard just has to stay healthy.
If you ask me, I still think our biggest hole overall is our lack of health and lack of PROVEN depth. We have to hope we get healthy, stay healthy and that the young guys are in fact PLAYERS. If that happens, this defense will go from 32nd in the league (worst) to serviceable at least.
And remember, I still think Reese is looking around for veteran depth as we have money. Will anyone shake loose? Maybe. I'm not counting on it but if a veteran RT, FS, DT, LB were being made available and the price was right I wouldn't be shocked if Reese pulled the trigger. It would have to be early in camp I'd think. If a veteran is an early cut due to the numbers game I'm sure Reese would look as well. But as of right now, in truth, I think we will be going with who we have.
The starters aren't all that bad. They just have to stay healthy. No team in our division is perfect so we have as good a chance as anyone. I mean, Washington isn't as good as their 9-7 record of last year when you consider every good team crushed them. Dallas has the division's best offense, I believe, but only if Romo stays healthy and lets face it at 36 with surgeries galore I'm not so sure he stands 16 games anymore..
Dallas got Elliott, if you listen to Jerry Jones interview on ESPN, in large part because he can do all 3 phases: protect Romo, run and catch. Jones fell in love with Elliott for that reason. But is Elliott a product of a great team or did he make the team great? That remains to be seen.
Good summary - completely agree. I agree with what some said above that it's impossible to have good depth when you're paying franchise QB money in this day and age but we tend to USE and RELY on our depth more than other teams due to injuries.
Guys like Owa, Bromley, Wynn, etc are fine backups on most teams but the issue is players like them have basically been our starters due to injuries past few years.