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Graziano: What Would it Take for Perkins to Factor at RB?

gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 11:40 am
ESPN "Mailbag" Blog Piece linked below
What would it take for Paul Perkins to factor at RB for the Giants? - ( New Window )
depends....  
dep026 : 7/19/2016 11:42 am : link
on how fast he can toss a salad?
: )  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 11:43 am : link
.
What would it take?  
est1986 : 7/19/2016 11:55 am : link
He has to bust a big play or two this preseason just to get a real shot in the regular season. Or if not then this is just going to be a redshirt year for him behind Jennings, Williams and Veeren.
Injuries  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/19/2016 11:59 am : link
Especially to Jennings are almost to be expected. Also McAdoo may want to put his stamp on the team. It wouldn't surprise mr to see him play a significant role.
Another year with 20+ on IR  
BillT : 7/19/2016 11:59 am : link
This year with emphasis on the RB position. Seriously though, they have a #1 back and a 3rd down back and a couple of vets as backups. Perkins is a rookie who has missed the preseason program. I think his talent is obvious but I think it's best to hope he's a factor next year not this.
RE: What would it take?  
giants#1 : 7/19/2016 12:02 pm : link
In comment 13037824 est1986 said:
Quote:
He has to bust a big play or two this preseason just to get a real shot in the regular season. Or if not then this is just going to be a redshirt year for him behind Jennings, Williams and Veeren.


I disagree. Vereen will likely just be used in certain packages and as a 3rd down back. So Perkins needs to outshine Williams in camp/preseason to be active on game days. Then he'll likely need an injury to Jennings or to really shine in limited touches early in the season to take over the primary role.
We clearly have depth at RB  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 12:07 pm : link
I agree that Jennings is the likely opening day starter. He doesn't fumble; he knows the offense cold; he can protect Eli; and, he finished well last year. He is 31 and I truly thought he'd be replaced based on the fact few RB's have done well at age 31 but as others have noted he hasn't taken the career beating that many others have at the position.

I also believe Vereen will clearly be the 3rd down back. The guy can catch and he can also run if called upon, he just isn't great at it.

It appears that Dwarka is healthy and I'm sorry but I liked what I saw from him in spots last year. He now knows the offense as well and I'm not sold on his being cut. I think he has a legit shot to stick.

RB A. Williams now has a true FB on the roster in Johnson. I think the OL blocking will be improved with the OL continuity and development (Flowers year #2 at LT; Pugh year #2 as an OG; Richburg being an outstandiing OC and the right side maybe improving a notch) of the OL.

Assuming the above is all true, that leaves Perkins as the last man standing. Do we carry Jennings, Vereen, Williams, Dwarka and Perkins? That will be interesting to see.

And people are going to laugh at me for saying this, but I must reiterate it: while I do believe Jennings is likely the opening day starter I still have a notion that he could end up being cut in a numbers game due to his age. At 31, he could lose just a shade, a fraction, enough for the coaches to notice and possibly consider as a factor for the future.

Do you give up on A. Williams or O. Dwarka in camp if they show really well and Jennings shows a shade of his age? It will be interesting to see. I would hate for us to end up cutting say Dwarka and watching him go to another team and finally excel. That would suck.

But as the article noted, RB is often a position that gets hit with injuries so we have the luxury of an extra guy in camp should that happen. You can't put Perkins on the practice squad so he makes the team no matter what. If anyone is cut, it looks like Dwarka but what if he is standout in camp.

We have a very good situation overall at RB. No superstars maybe but the potential for solid play and season long depth is there. Unfortunately, I don't see either A. Williams or O. Dwarka as tradeable should both even look good in camp.

Last word: Johnson at FB is going to help this run game immensely, especially for A. Williams.
I Have A Co-Worker That Is A Huge UCLA Fan  
Trainmaster : 7/19/2016 12:08 pm : link
Given he's a "homer", he watched all of Perkins' games and thinks the Giants got a huge steal getting him in round 5. Says Perkins almost always makes the first guy miss and is a great receiver out of the backfield.

We'll see if his success in college carries into the NFL. Having multiple guys that can make defenders miss / look silly in the open field (Beckham, Sheppard, Perkins, maybe still Cruz) might be great fun to watch IF things pan out.
Pass protection.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/19/2016 12:10 pm : link
If a running back can't protect Eli from a blitz, he won't play. Why would that be any less true under McAdoo than it was under Coughlin?

Preseason opponents will mostly play vanilla defense, so Perkins will have limited opportunities to show his blocking chops. Also, as Graziano notes, PP missed valuable time in the spring because of the NFL's weird rules. That's likely to affect his blitz pickup as much as anything.

The discussion is probably academic as long as Jennings and Vereen are healthy. Even if Perkins earns the #3 spot ahead of Williams, Darkwa and Rainey, that role doesn't entail many touches.
Perkins is a guy that may not dress on Sundays  
ZogZerg : 7/19/2016 12:17 pm : link
Unless he gets a role on specials. He needs injuries to help him get playing time this year.
RE: Pass protection.  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13037854 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
If a running back can't protect Eli from a blitz, he won't play. Why would that be any less true under McAdoo than it was under Coughlin?

Preseason opponents will mostly play vanilla defense, so Perkins will have limited opportunities to show his blocking chops. Also, as Graziano notes, PP missed valuable time in the spring because of the NFL's weird rules. That's likely to affect his blitz pickup as much as anything.

The discussion is probably academic as long as Jennings and Vereen are healthy. Even if Perkins earns the #3 spot ahead of Williams, Darkwa and Rainey, that role doesn't entail many touches.
Yes, rookies often struggle in pass protection so if Perkins can't do that well in camp practices and pre-season games he won't play on game-day.

I don't see Rainey making this team unless we get hit hard by injury. He is a body for practice in camp, maybe a guy who get cut in the last round and is told to stay in shape kind of thing at best.

Everything I've read about Perkins is that we did in fact appear to get a steal in round 5. Running backs don't seem to be as important today as they were 20 years ago due to NFL rule changes making this a passing league. If you have a serviceable running back that can pick up the blitz, catch the ball and run a bit you are good to go. A great RB like say Gurley or Peterson is a blessing due to his speed but they are far and few between.

My bet for Perkins right now is he learns this year and when Jennings, at 32 next year, likely moves on he plays a lot more. Now Perkins may play more later in the year should injuries and nicks and dings hit but I doubt he plays much early due to our depth.

We have a good situation at RB.
I'm gonna take the other tack  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 12:23 pm : link
I say if Perkins shows he is a multi-tool in camp -- he will be a starter

He supposedly has experience blocking for the QB on a Pro-style offense

If I'm McAdoo - I'm giving him a shot if he's gonna help spark the team and he's got fresh legs
I still disagree about Darkwa too  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 12:23 pm : link
Darkwa is the odd man out unless there's an injury
if Perkins shows he can block  
djm : 7/19/2016 12:30 pm : link
and play well he will get a shot in the regular season. Coaches aren't stupid. They don't ignore RB talent but they will bench them if the guy can't block or pick things up. IT's as simple as that.
I Agree His Ability To Pass Block  
Trainmaster : 7/19/2016 12:44 pm : link
will be key.

If I recall correctly, Bradshaw picked it up quickly and was very good at it.

We'll see with Perkins.
Agree with several above. If Perkins can pass protect  
Jimmy Googs : 7/19/2016 1:00 pm : link
and holds onto the ball, he will go right up to the top of the Depth Chart.

I know this presumes he can actually run well but we all know what's ahead of him on that chart so he has a lot of leeway...
A little foresight  
Carson53 : 7/19/2016 1:06 pm : link
would also help around here for a change of pace.
We sure didn't see the word foresight with Coughlin here!

Williams can't run, block or catch the ball by the way.
RE: I still disagree about Darkwa too  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 1:09 pm : link
In comment 13037888 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Darkwa is the odd man out unless there's an injury
Yeah, on paper it appears he'd be the odd man out.

But at this point, we can't be sure who the odd man out is due to many factors including age, health and development.

As I noted a few times, Jennings is in fact age 31 and he could lose a fraction, a shade of quickness noticeable by coaches in practice. Age is a bitch.

A. Williams could flop in camp, not show improvement, or he can show improvement especially behind a FB.

I think the coaches like Dwarka and saw flashes. He appears to be healthy going into training camp and now he knows the offense.

It will be an interesting pre-season for our deepest position on the team.
Simple  
Vin R : 7/19/2016 1:20 pm : link
Hard to say ...  
Beer Man : 7/19/2016 3:33 pm : link
If TC was here, we would assume he would be used sparingly. It will be interesting to watch if McAdoo is as reluctant to use rookies RBs.
And as its appears that Perkins presence ...  
Beer Man : 7/19/2016 3:39 pm : link
places Williams on the hot seat this season, Perkins is capable of playing the receiving back role; which means Veeren's playing time could diminish starting as early as next year.
RE: We clearly have depth at RB  
santacruzom : 7/19/2016 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13037846 SGMen said:
Quote:

Do you give up on A. Williams or blah blah blah blah


Shut up, just shut up!

You had me at "do you give up on A Williams!"
If he is the better player  
mdthedream : 7/19/2016 3:52 pm : link
I think he starts this is not a Tom coached team.
RE: If he is the better player  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 4:48 pm : link
In comment 13038252 mdthedream said:
Quote:
I think he starts this is not a Tom coached team.
I'm not sure we know how McAdoo thinks in terms of rookies playing a lot early. Look, if Perkins shows in camp that he can pick up the blitz with the best of them; can catch out of the backfield; and of course run well he plays earlier than expected.

But I see Perkins more likely getting worked into the lineup more and more as the season progresses. This assumes again he understands the nuances of picking up blitzers. Bradshaw in 2007 apparently was good at this as a rookie.

As for Perkins maybe taking Veeren's playing time next year, well that would be a good thing for us but I doubt it. Veeren is superb receiving and can pass protect as well. He is a so so runner but he can run if needed. We shall see.
I disagree....  
Doomster : 7/19/2016 10:31 pm : link
Perkins is a guy that may not dress on Sundays
ZogZerg : 12:17 pm : link : reply
Unless he gets a role on specials. He needs injuries to help him get playing time this year.


Jennings is 31 years old......he can't carry the load......Darkwa it seems, is always getting nicked, and is recovering from an injury.....Williams is an enigma....he should be better than he has shown.....neither of these guys are starting material....Perkins, hopefully, works his way into the lineup, as someone previously mentioned in another thread, like Bradshaw was, at the end of his rookie season....but in his case, I think Perkins will get early opportunities....he is a rookie...he is a gamble.....but there really is no one after Jennings as a starter.....
RE: I disagree....  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 10:44 pm : link
In comment 13038740 Doomster said:
Quote:
Perkins is a guy that may not dress on Sundays
ZogZerg : 12:17 pm : link : reply
Unless he gets a role on specials. He needs injuries to help him get playing time this year.


Jennings is 31 years old......he can't carry the load......Darkwa it seems, is always getting nicked, and is recovering from an injury.....Williams is an enigma....he should be better than he has shown.....neither of these guys are starting material....Perkins, hopefully, works his way into the lineup, as someone previously mentioned in another thread, like Bradshaw was, at the end of his rookie season....but in his case, I think Perkins will get early opportunities....he is a rookie...he is a gamble.....but there really is no one after Jennings as a starter.....
Unless Perkins knows how to pass protect right off the bat, he ain't starting early. I think like most rookies he has a learning curve and hopefully will work into the lineup much like Bradshaw did in 2007.
He will have to pass protect and know his assignments but  
Jimmy Googs : 7/19/2016 11:15 pm : link
don't forget pass protection under Gilbride was a lot different than WCO football...
RE: He will have to pass protect and know his assignments but  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 12:36 am : link
In comment 13038777 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
don't forget pass protection under Gilbride was a lot different than WCO football...
I can't speak to the nuances of RB pass protection sets and designs but the coaches will know during training camp if he knows his stuff or not.

As noted above more than once, I think Jennings starts; A. Williams gets a lot of carries; and Vereen is the 3rd down guy who gets some carries and a lot of catches this year. RB Perkins sees time later in the year and maybe makes an impact late much like Bradshaw did in 2007.

Remember, Jennings is 31 and A. Williamms has not lit the NFL on fire yet though I'm hopeful he shows well this year with better blocking and a true FB to run behind.
I disagree on Williams. I have a feeling preseason  
Jimmy Googs : 7/20/2016 1:32 am : link
will determine whether he will get carries or whether he will be basically banished to the bottom of the depth chart and only come in due to injuries/dings.
RE: I disagree on Williams. I have a feeling preseason  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 3:09 am : link
In comment 13038795 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
will determine whether he will get carries or whether he will be basically banished to the bottom of the depth chart and only come in due to injuries/dings.
Without question, this training camp will determine a lot abot the future of our running backs.

Guys like A. Williams, O. Dwwarka and Perkins all need to gt carries in camp and pre-season so we know what we have with all of them.

I'm intrigued to see just how A. Williams looks with a true FB and some improved blocking in front of him. He now knows the offense cold too.
There's a bit of remaking history on this thread.  
BlueLou : 7/20/2016 3:14 am : link
To start with the info on Perkins' pass blocking at UCLA and the type of offense they ran is mixed and not easy to get clear info on. There are reports that he can block pass protection (but no one is putting him in Zeke Elliott's class) but also reports he will need to learn it as UCLA ran a spread offense. There are reports UCLA is changing from a spread in 2015 to a pro style in 2016, mostly regarding questions about how future 1st rounder QB Rosen will have to adapt and learn an NFL style offense.

Bradshaw was not a good pass blocker as a rookie. On top of the clear 1-2 RBs ahead of him (Jacobs and Ward) Bradshaw had to learn pass blocking on the job. AB showed he was an explosive and elusive runner almost immediately as a rookie, but still had to wait until late in the year to see many carries. TC acknowledged that he knew what AB was capable of as a runner, but also that he was still learning pass protection. AB was very willing and as we know a beast of a tough guy, but he had a flaw of cut blocking in PP as a rookie and that had to be corrected.

I doubt Perkins gets treated any differently by Mac than AB was by TC as a rookie. Eli (and Beckham) are the platinum franchise pieces, and both of those pieces require the Giants RBs pass block well.

Besides that, no telling how quickly he will pick up the playbook in general.
RE: There's a bit of remaking history on this thread.  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 3:27 am : link
In comment 13038800 BlueLou said:
Quote:
To start with the info on Perkins' pass blocking at UCLA and the type of offense they ran is mixed and not easy to get clear info on. There are reports that he can block pass protection (but no one is putting him in Zeke Elliott's class) but also reports he will need to learn it as UCLA ran a spread offense. There are reports UCLA is changing from a spread in 2015 to a pro style in 2016, mostly regarding questions about how future 1st rounder QB Rosen will have to adapt and learn an NFL style offense.

Bradshaw was not a good pass blocker as a rookie. On top of the clear 1-2 RBs ahead of him (Jacobs and Ward) Bradshaw had to learn pass blocking on the job. AB showed he was an explosive and elusive runner almost immediately as a rookie, but still had to wait until late in the year to see many carries. TC acknowledged that he knew what AB was capable of as a runner, but also that he was still learning pass protection. AB was very willing and as we know a beast of a tough guy, but he had a flaw of cut blocking in PP as a rookie and that had to be corrected.

I doubt Perkins gets treated any differently by Mac than AB was by TC as a rookie. Eli (and Beckham) are the platinum franchise pieces, and both of those pieces require the Giants RBs pass block well.

Besides that, no telling how quickly he will pick up the playbook in general.
Good post and analysis. If Perkins can pick up the playbook and pass protect in camp, he will certainly play. But I doubt as a rookie he'll be ready out the gates. I think he develops over time.
Perkins  
stretch234 : 7/20/2016 9:52 am : link
The NFL does not put in RB who can not pass protect - it gets your QB hurt. If he can't at minimum pass block he will be on the sidelines.

Jennings is going to get 15 carries per game.

Vereen right now is the best pass catcher of the group - Perkins is not replacing him

Williams is going to get the short carries.

Darkwa is the man out

The best we hope is that Perkins shows ability to pass block and be brought in on 3rd downs as additional weapon. Having 3 RB's that can catch threatens D
Special Team Play  
The Tempest : 7/20/2016 11:30 am : link
Everyone loves rookies but they have to prove it first and Perkins is no different. The depth at RB is impossible to overcome without exceptional performance in the special teams role. That is how Perkins is going to climb up the depth chart and dress on gameday.
RE: Special Team Play  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13039184 The Tempest said:
Quote:
Everyone loves rookies but they have to prove it first and Perkins is no different. The depth at RB is impossible to overcome without exceptional performance in the special teams role. That is how Perkins is going to climb up the depth chart and dress on gameday.
I totally agree but there is a numbers game on gameday. If Jennings, Vereen and Williams dress along with FB Johnson (a superb ST player as I understand it...) do you have room to dress RB Perkins? I don't think so UNLESS he shows he's a total ST ace.
RE: RE: Special Team Play  
The Tempest : 7/20/2016 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13039454 SGMen said:
Quote:

I totally agree but there is a numbers game on gameday. If Jennings, Vereen and Williams dress along with FB Johnson (a superb ST player as I understand it...) do you have room to dress RB Perkins? I don't think so UNLESS he shows he's a total ST ace.


Perkins is taking someone's spot on gameday if he proves to be a better special teams player. Could be anyone, not necessarily another RB.
RE: RE: RE: Special Team Play  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 8:08 pm : link
In comment 13039900 The Tempest said:
Quote:
In comment 13039454 SGMen said:


Quote:



I totally agree but there is a numbers game on gameday. If Jennings, Vereen and Williams dress along with FB Johnson (a superb ST player as I understand it...) do you have room to dress RB Perkins? I don't think so UNLESS he shows he's a total ST ace.



Perkins is taking someone's spot on gameday if he proves to be a better special teams player. Could be anyone, not necessarily another RB.
I get what you are saying but sort of disagree in the sense that how can you justify dressing so many RB's on game day? We have safeties, corners, linebackers, wideouts who all need to dress as well and play specials. Dress say 4 LB's and one gets hurt what do you do? You are screwed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Special Team Play  
The Tempest : 7/21/2016 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13039914 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13039900 Quote: I get what you are saying but sort of disagree in the sense that how can you justify dressing so many RB's on game day? We have safeties, corners, linebackers, wideouts who all need to dress as well and play specials. Dress say 4 LB's and one gets hurt what do you do? You are screwed.


We had four RB's dressing last year for most of the season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Special Team Play  
BlueLou : 7/21/2016 4:23 pm : link
Quote:

We had four RB's dressing last year for most of the season.


Both Williams and Darkwa played STs and Darkwa was an ace supposedly.

So what's your point?
Vereen returned kicks  
BlueLou : 7/21/2016 4:24 pm : link
too.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Special Team Play  
SGMen : 7/21/2016 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13040894 The Tempest said:
Quote:
In comment 13039914 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 13039900 Quote: I get what you are saying but sort of disagree in the sense that how can you justify dressing so many RB's on game day? We have safeties, corners, linebackers, wideouts who all need to dress as well and play specials. Dress say 4 LB's and one gets hurt what do you do? You are screwed.



We had four RB's dressing last year for most of the season.
But we had a ton of injuries last year and health running backs who all played specials. I'm not so sure you'll regularly see that this year unless again injuries hit.

Look, I could be wrong and we suit up 4 RB's. That happens if RB Perkins is a standout special teamer.

At the end of the day, its a numbers game where you need to have enough guys at every position to justify suiting up. I have seen the Giants once have only four active LB's due to injuries. You can have only 3 safeties active on a gameday due to injuries. It is all a numbers game and balance tells me we suit up 3 RB's (most likely) and a FB.

The numbers on game day  
The Tempest : 7/23/2016 6:29 pm : link
Is really a decision that is going to be made by the coaches and not the fans. Before we can even think about a game day roster, let us see who sticks in September on the final roster.
RE: The numbers on game day  
SGMen : 7/23/2016 6:39 pm : link
In comment 13042900 The Tempest said:
Quote:
Is really a decision that is going to be made by the coaches and not the fans. Before we can even think about a game day roster, let us see who sticks in September on the final roster.
Yup, this and every other pre-camp post is about prognostication, just having fun trying to "guess" and so forth.

The hardest thing to predict is injuries. You can be rolling along through camp and than it is game 3 and BAM 3 guys go down for the year and you are like FREAKING PISSED and feeling bad for them. I actually, physically and literally pray for health. The Giants are the only sports team I actually watch regularly so their success is a part of my psyche! LOL
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