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WR Question- Does Cruz move outside - and Sheppard to slot?

Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 12:17 pm
Just thinking about Cruz, Sheppard and OBJ on the field at once makes all of us giddy.

Sheppard seems to be taylor-made for the slot, and Cruz, God hopes he has regained all of his "wiggle", but at this point in his career, does he become more productive moving outside to RR old spot?





Yeah Baby  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 12:18 pm : link
Football Thread!!!
RE: Yeah Baby  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13037871 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Football Thread!!!

:-)
WR trio  
FilmoPeace : 7/19/2016 12:20 pm : link
The passing game might be so threatening this season that the weakness on the right side of the OL might not hurt the running game as much as I anticipate.

Hopefully the opposition will be thinking pass so much that we can build a decent ground game off it.
Welcome back FIlmo  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 12:21 pm : link
!
I'd imagine all of the WR's  
Giantology : 7/19/2016 12:21 pm : link
will rotate between the outside and the slot, so that McAdoo makes sure we take advantage of mismatches. Look at the way we've used OBJ. Having two other WRs who can move around adds lots match up problems for opposing defenses.
My dad is really interested in the TE we drafted  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 12:23 pm : link
He loves big TE's around the goal line,

Jerell Adams, TE, South Carolina- 6'5" AND 250

Another workout warrior: The Giants love guys who do great things at the scouting combine, and Adams' 4.64 time in the 40-yard dash was the best this year among tight ends in Indianapolis. He admits he needs to be sharper in and out of his breaks, but he was a reliable pass-catcher for the Gamecocks. The Giants view him as an athletic player who can refine his game at the pro level.
RE: I'd imagine all of the WR's  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13037882 Giantology said:
Quote:
will rotate between the outside and the slot, so that McAdoo makes sure we take advantage of mismatches. Look at the way we've used OBJ. Having two other WRs who can move around adds lots match up problems for opposing defenses.


agree, watching old OBJ highlights, you realize how much RR was standing around watching Odell making moves and NOT blocking for him
Ehh  
Joey in VA : 7/19/2016 12:25 pm : link
This offense moves WRs around and the three or four are usually interchangeable. You can run any route from any slot, so it almost doesn't matter who lines up where or what people see as a traditional "slot" role. The idea is to find mismatches by moving people around, go back and watch some of the Panthers game and Patriots game where OBJ was moved around, came in motion, he ran routes from nearly everywhere and it depended on who was matched up on him.

Against the Panthers, McAdoo slid OBJ inside, and once man coverage was evident, OBJ ran a drag route inside of Cortland Finnegan and Norman was left on the outside doing nothing. Against the Pats, OBJ started outside and against a bracketed double, he split the coverage on a dig route, ducked inside and raced to a TD while lined up at the X. The slot or the flanker or split end won't really have the traditional roles all the time in this offense because McAdoo loves to exploit areas and matchups and he won't stick one WR in one spot and leave him there if he can find a matchup to win elsewhere.
Not a regular basis  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/19/2016 12:25 pm : link
.
Dwayne Harris has claimed the he's the only one  
BlueLou : 7/19/2016 12:25 pm : link
of the WRs who know all the positions, do I'd ask him.
RE: Ehh  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13037890 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
This offense moves WRs around and the three or four are usually interchangeable. You can run any route from any slot, so it almost doesn't matter who lines up where or what people see as a traditional "slot" role. The idea is to find mismatches by moving people around, go back and watch some of the Panthers game and Patriots game where OBJ was moved around, came in motion, he ran routes from nearly everywhere and it depended on who was matched up on him.

Against the Panthers, McAdoo slid OBJ inside, and once man coverage was evident, OBJ ran a drag route inside of Cortland Finnegan and Norman was left on the outside doing nothing. Against the Pats, OBJ started outside and against a bracketed double, he split the coverage on a dig route, ducked inside and raced to a TD while lined up at the X. The slot or the flanker or split end won't really have the traditional roles all the time in this offense because McAdoo loves to exploit areas and matchups and he won't stick one WR in one spot and leave him there if he can find a matchup to win elsewhere.


Joey. you hit it right, think about it, RR was limited, he could not move inside and do what Cruz and shepard can do there
RE: WR trio  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13037878 FilmoPeace said:
Quote:
The passing game might be so threatening this season that the weakness on the right side of the OL might not hurt the running game as much as I anticipate.

Hopefully the opposition will be thinking pass so much that we can build a decent ground game off it.
While I agree with other posters that until we see Cruz in pads in a pre-season game we won't know about him, as a fan and hopeful I think he comes back and starts. I'm just hopeful.

He is a veteran, knows the offense, Eli likes him and if healthy enough he starts. Even if he has lost a bit of explosion due to injuries his knowledge of the offense may be enough for him to be the #2. Let Sheppard play the slot and learn, especially early in the year.

But imagine if WR Cruz does bounce back, healthy? This offense would be very hard for anyone to stop.

As for the right side of the OL, while not standout both Jerry and Newhouse are veterans who know this offense. They now have coach Solari and he'll help them I'm sure. I'm not saying it is a great situation with both of them starting but it also isn't as bad as many think either. Few teams have five standout OL's starting, maybe only Dallas?

Newhouse and Jerry aren't going to make many "mental" errors. They both pass protect ok though their run blocking isn't too good. I heard Jerry did some off-season special work to get his play improved. Newhouse is in his prime at age 28. Lets give them a chance. This OL needs to stay healthy through camp (continuity) and definitely through the season as we lack depth.

You have to hope 2nd year OG Hart develops and becomes the backup RT, RG. That simple.
.  
arcarsenal : 7/19/2016 12:27 pm : link
Neither Cruz nor Shepard are going to be fixed in the slot or outside. Both guys are going to play in both spots. McAdoo has been moving Beckham all over the place including motioning him into the backfield. He'll do similar things with the other two.
RE: I'd imagine all of the WR's  
robbieballs2003 : 7/19/2016 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13037882 Giantology said:
Quote:
will rotate between the outside and the slot, so that McAdoo makes sure we take advantage of mismatches. Look at the way we've used OBJ. Having two other WRs who can move around adds lots match up problems for opposing defenses.


This. McAdoo has said in the past he will have a system that takes advantage of the players' abilities and not try to fit players into a concrete system.
Cruz, Beckham, and Shepard are all very good in the slot.  
Ira : 7/19/2016 12:29 pm : link
Moving them around, helps to keep the defense honest and give the receivers a free release.
RE: .  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13037898 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Neither Cruz nor Shepard are going to be fixed in the slot or outside. Both guys are going to play in both spots. McAdoo has been moving Beckham all over the place including motioning him into the backfield. He'll do similar things with the other two.
Good points. You have to do what you have to do to create space and matchup advantages. No concrete system will work in today's NFL. Best to take advantage of individual talents.

You just have to hope Cruz comes back and has the ability to get open regularly and provide Eli with his "3rd down blanket" and such. I mean, Vereen is a 3rd down blanket and nifty TE Tye may very well surprise in that role as well.

But you need three true wideouts who can challenge and press any defense to be great. Hoping we end up with those 3 by opening day with Cruz returning to health and Sheppard developing nicely.
Yes, Cruz moves outside  
lugnut : 7/19/2016 1:28 pm : link
...the Giants facility and possibly football altogether because he's very likely done. Pls, let's NOT get our hopes up. By the time reg season starts, he will not have played football in nearly 2 years. Past 30 and coming off a major injury. And does anyone NOT think it's just a matter of time until he gets hurt again? Talk about injury-prone. Hasn't he been hurt and not playing much more often than not in his career? Sorry to be the skunk at the garden party, but...

As good a thread to ask on as any...What's the knock on J. Adams again? I thought I read somewhere even his own camp (whatever that is) was really down on him back around the Combine or so(?) Head case? Off-the-field issues?

Returning to skunkdom...Not sure why everyone considers Adams such a big TE. 6'4" and 250 is very average nowadays.
RE: Yes, Cruz moves outside  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13037982 lugnut said:
Quote:
...the Giants facility and possibly football altogether because he's very likely done. Pls, let's NOT get our hopes up. By the time reg season starts, he will not have played football in nearly 2 years. Past 30 and coming off a major injury. And does anyone NOT think it's just a matter of time until he gets hurt again? Talk about injury-prone. Hasn't he been hurt and not playing much more often than not in his career? Sorry to be the skunk at the garden party, but...

As good a thread to ask on as any...What's the knock on J. Adams again? I thought I read somewhere even his own camp (whatever that is) was really down on him back around the Combine or so(?) Head case? Off-the-field issues?

Returning to skunkdom...Not sure why everyone considers Adams such a big TE. 6'4" and 250 is very average nowadays.
Cruz could very well flop, end up being dinged or worse. Or he could just lose that bit of explosion he couldn't afford to lose. We simply don't know yet. As a fan, I'm just staying optimistic.

Many just before the draft were hoping Reese would get a veteran WR as well as a UFA. We clearly needed to draft a good one and I believe we did in Shepherd.

I mean, God forbid Cruz flops and Sheppard faces the learning curve. That means Harris plays a lot and possibly Davis or ??? We can't have OBJ be a one man show and hope to be a superb offense. We need to "be lucky" and hope Cruz bounces back well enough and Sheppard develops quickly. Otherwise, we are not going to be as good as hoped. Teams will beat you if you can't beat them.
Hard to speculate when you don't know much about Sheppard.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/19/2016 1:38 pm : link
Everyone's assuming a seamless transition, and I'm a bit more guarded.
RE: Hard to speculate when you don't know much about Sheppard.  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 1:59 pm : link
In comment 13037998 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Everyone's assuming a seamless transition, and I'm a bit more guarded.
As am I, he is in fact a rookie. How many rookie wideouts picked in round 2 or later truly flourish?

I like Sheppard's ability and potential. But if he is playing 100% of the offensive snaps as the #2 wideout, well, it may not be a good thing.

WR R. Randle had to go if only because I believe he lacked the right work ethic. He as suspended by TC at one point. Reports were he missed meetings or was late a lot. He clearly ran wrong routes and cost Eli interceptions.

So does anyone else think the Giants may and try to grab a veteran wideout during camp? Someone that may shake free? If Cruz is hurt I think that is a guarantee.
I do think Sheppard will be his most effective from the slot  
Bob in Newburgh : 7/19/2016 2:23 pm : link
and therefore, he will get a majority of the time there.

How it affects the others remains to be seen. OBJ has certainly been effective anywhere, and there is no performance reason to keep him from the outside.

Cruz has the issue of whether he was the same player outside as he was in the slot even in his salad days. Remains to be seen compounded with recovery questions.

Davis's athletic and physical strengths project outside much more than the slot. Harris would seem to project better to the slot than the outside.
RE: Hard to speculate when you don't know much about Sheppard.  
Paulie Walnuts : 7/19/2016 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13037998 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Everyone's assuming a seamless transition, and I'm a bit more guarded.


if he becomes a better Steve Smith, this season, the offense will be good

we still cant run for a 3rd and short in my mind with the right side OL we have
SGMen  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/19/2016 3:27 pm : link
I seriously doubt the Giants grab a vet WR -- it's time to go with the yutes
Adams is  
shyster : 7/19/2016 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13037982 lugnut said:
Quote:
Not sure why everyone considers Adams such a big TE. 6'4" and 250 is very average nowadays.


6'5 1/8". Per combine.
RE: SGMen  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 4:40 pm : link
In comment 13038183 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I seriously doubt the Giants grab a vet WR -- it's time to go with the yutes
I agree that it isn't very likely we'll go after a veteran UNLESS we must. Must being injuries hit.

But do you honestly want say WR M. White on the roster as the 5th guy? I'd prefer someone reliable and experienced. You can't have everything. Personally, I'm hoping 28 year old international rookie Dable showed redzone prowess as a big body guy who gets the ball and sticks. We need a monster back there if Davis isn't up to par.

And if Cruz has a setback or doesn't show well, do you keep him and his salary? Doubtful. Lots of question marks at WR. We are lucky we have veteran WR Harris but in truth you don't want him play #3 if you can help it.

As an optimist, I'm going with OBJ, Cruz, Sheppard, Harris and (gulp) Dable. But if not Dable, a veteran cut isn't a bad idea...especially if they are someone who has played in a WCO style offense.
I don't doubt  
Bluesbreaker : 7/19/2016 4:43 pm : link
they add a few more parts Vet WR RT much depending on Cruz
if he falters then I think they will add a vet .
RE: I don't doubt  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13038368 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
they add a few more parts Vet WR RT much depending on Cruz
if he falters then I think they will add a vet .
I think if you asked Reese if the Giants were looking for a veteran RT, WR, FS he'd answer with "we always have our eyes open for talent" or something like that.

But if you are going to upgrade I think you need to do it no later than say after the first pre-season game. You would want even a veteran to have a few weeks of camp to pick up the system. That is the tough thing about getting someone late.

But would anyone be truly surprised if they turned ESPN to hear the Giants made a trade? Not me.
RE: I'd imagine all of the WR's  
shabu : 7/19/2016 5:11 pm : link
In comment 13037882 Giantology said:
Quote:
will rotate between the outside and the slot, so that McAdoo makes sure we take advantage of mismatches. Look at the way we've used OBJ. Having two other WRs who can move around adds lots match up problems for opposing defenses.


This is exactly what i expect, all of them moving all around. I think thats why they were so high on sheppard, supposedly he is NFL, west coast route ready... key is for OBJ, move them everywhere they can't always double him.
RE: RE: I'd imagine all of the WR's  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 5:33 pm : link
In comment 13038405 shabu said:
Quote:
In comment 13037882 Giantology said:


Quote:


will rotate between the outside and the slot, so that McAdoo makes sure we take advantage of mismatches. Look at the way we've used OBJ. Having two other WRs who can move around adds lots match up problems for opposing defenses.



This is exactly what i expect, all of them moving all around. I think thats why they were so high on sheppard, supposedly he is NFL, west coast route ready... key is for OBJ, move them everywhere they can't always double him.
Yeah, Sheppard definitely has the look a WCO wideout with his quickness and cutting. I am really crossing my fingers this rookie produces like OBJ did as a rookie. I mean, not OBJ's numbers cause he doesn't have that kind of pure ability but just productive because he has skills. That is what we need for this offense to get to the next level.
Maybe the Giants  
mrvax : 7/19/2016 6:42 pm : link
will try to sign BBI favorite, James Jones again.
RE: Maybe the Giants  
SGMen : 7/19/2016 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13038493 mrvax said:
Quote:
will try to sign BBI favorite, James Jones again.
I'd almost prefer him over M. White for the 5th WR job. Or do we hope M. White surprises? LOL.
I want all 3 of them moving to the end zone ....  
short lease : 7/19/2016 6:53 pm : link
on a regular basement.

"Touch down Giants".
Exactly SGMen  
Bluesbreaker : 7/19/2016 8:07 pm : link
Especially in the Injury department or how will the Rookies
look like when the Pads are on . I am as we all are that
Davis makes a significant jump and one of the FA like
Lewis or Powe make an early Impact ala Cruz .
That alone will take some pressure off Sheppard and give
us great Depth at that spot .
If someone goes down I would be all in on Boldin or Jones
they are both savvy vets especially Boldin yes lots
of wear and tear but he would become a reliable chain
mover IMO .
Over on the Defense I wouldn't mind a Freeny or even a
Woodley in the rotation if Owa doesn't show enough
ability in pre-season . He most likely will see time
against non starters so I expect him to show he can
beat whoever is in front of him . Again guys like
Wynn Okwara Williams hopefully they show some hope
when the pads are on .....
Last but not least the Offensive line Bench or
the Starters we can ill afford losing a starter
as it is we have guys were brought in mainly as backups
only to be labeled starters I scratch my head as to why
we have yet to have added a player there yet and there were plenty of upgrades that we looked into but were
not added due to things we can guess about so I do think
thats one place that we will definitely add a Player .
Weird margins  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/19/2016 8:13 pm : link
How do you do that?
I don't know How I have this set up  
Bluesbreaker : 7/19/2016 8:35 pm : link
I can only type so far then I have to got to the next line it .
Top line is as far as i can type I have received a ton of
criticism so mostly I just say fuck off lol
But not at you AP I just love the sight there is a ton of
very knowledgeable fans on this sight and I just like to throw in my two cents in and debate a bit .
I know I don't have much in the way of friends on here although some actually agree with some of my posts that in itself makes me come back and damn the haters that don't know me at home I'm one of the fox hole guys that people
do respect Giants are in my blood since 1962 and I think
were poised for a big run many here think were a year
off I disagree of course there are more than a few If's
but I guess Pre-Season will shed some light on the opening day starters and back ups I think it could be
like 2007 when guys like Bradshaw emerged think Perkins
Another guy who I think will develop as the season wears
on is Goodson . I think he is a smart downhill run stopper with the smarts and a knack for shedding blockers

RE: RE: Hard to speculate when you don't know much about Sheppard.  
Ira : 7/19/2016 8:53 pm : link
In comment 13038146 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
In comment 13037998 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Everyone's assuming a seamless transition, and I'm a bit more guarded.



if he becomes a better Steve Smith, this season, the offense will be good

we still cant run for a 3rd and short in my mind with the right side OL we have


That's an interesting comparison. Shepard, like Smith, is a great route runner and like Smith is very nfl ready.
Davis will be on the outside.  
CT Charlie : 7/19/2016 11:14 pm : link
Sheppard in the slot by October, and it'll be a miracle if Cruz lasts long anywhere.
I read someplace  
FilmoPeace : 7/19/2016 11:18 pm : link
...that Jerry was a new man. He worked out in Arizona and learned new technique. He's in the shape of his life so it will be interesting to see if it transfers to the field.
RE: I read someplace  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 12:30 am : link
In comment 13038779 FilmoPeace said:
Quote:
...that Jerry was a new man. He worked out in Arizona and learned new technique. He's in the shape of his life so it will be interesting to see if it transfers to the field.
Yes, this info was posted elsewhere as well. He is a big man so it is add he doesn't run block well. If he got into shape and worked on technique and just improved we are in much better shape. He is generally a good pass protector. RT Robert Newhouse wasn't all that bad in pass protection eithr, at least not as bad as some on BBI made him out to be.

I think the continuity of the OL along with superb coaching from Mike Solari will result in much better overall play this year. And lets face it, if OT E. Flowers improves by leaps and bounds as I expect look for us to use the deep ball a little more.
Leaving injury equalizers out of the equation  
Bob in Newburgh : 7/20/2016 10:02 am : link
I would be very surprised if any of the newbies not named SS can overcome Davis's advantage of having a year in camp under his belt.
RE: My dad is really interested in the TE we drafted  
GeofromNJ : 7/20/2016 7:24 pm : link
In comment 13037886 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
He loves big TE's around the goal line,

Jerell Adams, TE, South Carolina- 6'5" AND 250

Another workout warrior: The Giants love guys who do great things at the scouting combine, and Adams' 4.64 time in the 40-yard dash was the best this year among tight ends in Indianapolis. He admits he needs to be sharper in and out of his breaks, but he was a reliable pass-catcher for the Gamecocks. The Giants view him as an athletic player who can refine his game at the pro level.

Jerell Adams is a terrific blocker and will make a BIG difference in the running game. He seems to lumber when running routes, but he has good hands. It's the improved running game that I'm anticipating, despite our weakness at RT.
RE: RE: My dad is really interested in the TE we drafted  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 8:15 pm : link
In comment 13039887 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
In comment 13037886 Paulie Walnuts said:


Quote:


He loves big TE's around the goal line,

Jerell Adams, TE, South Carolina- 6'5" AND 250

Another workout warrior: The Giants love guys who do great things at the scouting combine, and Adams' 4.64 time in the 40-yard dash was the best this year among tight ends in Indianapolis. He admits he needs to be sharper in and out of his breaks, but he was a reliable pass-catcher for the Gamecocks. The Giants view him as an athletic player who can refine his game at the pro level.


Jerell Adams is a terrific blocker and will make a BIG difference in the running game. He seems to lumber when running routes, but he has good hands. It's the improved running game that I'm anticipating, despite our weakness at RT.
I didn't realize TE J. Adams was a terrific blocker. I saw him as more of a developmental type who had a lot to learn. Interesting.
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