I was reading up on the V. Miller contract with Denver. He got that kind of money because he single-handedly (almost) won the Broncos the SB last year as he was unstoppable. He is a pure talent that is hard to find.
I looked at our team and thought our best pass rushers are in the following order:
JPP, Vernon and Hankins.
Our best blitzers may end up being LB Kennard, LB Robinson (yup) and S L. Collins who will play up in the box more near the LOS and likely be used to rush the passer.
So my question is how much does scheme create pressure? Can Spags use what we have better than most DC's to create pressure?
We had almost zero pass rush last year because we had like zero talent. JPP had one arm. Hankins and Kennard were hurt. Ayers was hurt.
This year, we have a motivated and healthier JPP. We have Vernon who I think will be very good. We hopefully have a healed, motivated Hankins who was superbe in his 2nd season but struggled last year even when healthy. Snacks is strictly a run stopper though Reese has been noted as saying that he is better at pushing the pocket than most think.
But to get consistent pressure you need that LB, that S, that CB to blitz on occassion and make the OL and scheme "think" and so forth.
Besides who I listed above, is there anyone else we think can possibly bring pressure? My wildcard is FB DL Nikita Whitlock who flashed last year in spot; was a solid pass rusher in college; and has now bulked up so he might better handle a surprise run at him should he line up on the DL for a 3rd and long type scenario.
My other wildcard is LB Kennard, if he can ever stay healthy. He is big, fast and has the knack to rush.
To get to Elite levels you need the first two for sure. Scheme can push it over the top and get you in the HOF.
During that magical year was it talent, scheme or both?
Mostly talent. Offensive lines could not handle what we threw at them (ask Tom Brady how he graded his o-line after that Super Bowl?). We all all know that answer. They got their asses handed to them.
You have LT...You have Michael Strahan, you have Justin Tuck, Osi, Leonard Marshall even (and these are just Giants). Talent surpasses scheme. Scheme masks talent (not all the time).
I'll take talent over scheme most of the time.
But are you trying to compete with GIDIEFOR?
During that magical year was it talent, scheme or both?
Mostly talent. Offensive lines could not handle what we threw at them (ask Tom Brady how he graded his o-line after that Super Bowl?). We all all know that answer. They got their asses handed to them.
You have LT...You have Michael Strahan, you have Justin Tuck, Osi, Leonard Marshall even (and these are just Giants). Talent surpasses scheme. Scheme masks talent (not all the time).
I'll take talent over scheme most of the time.
Bottom Line: do we have anyone that can dominate for us this year? For some reason I believe in 3 finger JPP as I have a feeling he's motivated to show the world he's still a player and that he can overcome a mistake like July 4th. I also believe Vernon can rush the passer.
That is why I like the fact that we appear to have 3 solid pass rush guys on our front in JPP, Vernon and Hankins. I have high hopes JPP just rebounds with his 3 fingers and dominates with his superb physicality. He has the tools and if he can grip well enough with 3 fingers we are going to be very good indeed.
Dallas is a team that worries me in the sense that they appear to have an OL that is in its prime; a TE that can block in Witten; and, a new RB in Elliott who supposedly can protect Romo very well even if he is a rookie. Hard to get to Romo and knock him out if they focus on mass protecting him.
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Everyone here remembers Strahan: "17 - 14 Believe it and it will Happen."
During that magical year was it talent, scheme or both?
Mostly talent. Offensive lines could not handle what we threw at them (ask Tom Brady how he graded his o-line after that Super Bowl?). We all all know that answer. They got their asses handed to them.
You have LT...You have Michael Strahan, you have Justin Tuck, Osi, Leonard Marshall even (and these are just Giants). Talent surpasses scheme. Scheme masks talent (not all the time).
I'll take talent over scheme most of the time.
A friend of mine from work went to the 2007 SB va Patriots. He said the one thing that amazed him is that Tom Brady had all of 3 plays as he recalls where he actually had time to throw. He said Patriot receiver were open but Tom could never plant and fire well enough. Tuck and Strahan dominated that SB for us. Great gameplan.
Bottom Line: do we have anyone that can dominate for us this year? For some reason I believe in 3 finger JPP as I have a feeling he's motivated to show the world he's still a player and that he can overcome a mistake like July 4th. I also believe Vernon can rush the passer.
I think this year we'll eventually be more scheme oriented vice talent. I think JPP will be motivated and actually have a low double-digit Sack Season. Hopefully ten from Vernon. I am even thinking Landon Collins will have more than five, too (I said in the least thread I did here with you I was more optimistic this year than in the past couple). This defense will be better than last year. We have to move from the back of the pack to at least the middle defensively with the additions we have added both free agent-wise and through the draft.
Until they all gel and can prove their worth talent-wise, I think Spags will be more scheme oriented and hopefully more strategically aggressive this year.
If we avoid the major injury bug we will surprise. I cannot see that not happening.
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In comment 13038556 Aloha Alan said:
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Everyone here remembers Strahan: "17 - 14 Believe it and it will Happen."
During that magical year was it talent, scheme or both?
Mostly talent. Offensive lines could not handle what we threw at them (ask Tom Brady how he graded his o-line after that Super Bowl?). We all all know that answer. They got their asses handed to them.
You have LT...You have Michael Strahan, you have Justin Tuck, Osi, Leonard Marshall even (and these are just Giants). Talent surpasses scheme. Scheme masks talent (not all the time).
I'll take talent over scheme most of the time.
A friend of mine from work went to the 2007 SB va Patriots. He said the one thing that amazed him is that Tom Brady had all of 3 plays as he recalls where he actually had time to throw. He said Patriot receiver were open but Tom could never plant and fire well enough. Tuck and Strahan dominated that SB for us. Great gameplan.
Bottom Line: do we have anyone that can dominate for us this year? For some reason I believe in 3 finger JPP as I have a feeling he's motivated to show the world he's still a player and that he can overcome a mistake like July 4th. I also believe Vernon can rush the passer.
I think this year we'll eventually be more scheme oriented vice talent. I think JPP will be motivated and actually have a low double-digit Sack Season. Hopefully ten from Vernon. I am even thinking Landon Collins will have more than five, too (I said in the least thread I did here with you I was more optimistic this year than in the past couple). This defense will be better than last year. We have to move from the back of the pack to at least the middle defensively with the additions we have added both free agent-wise and through the draft.
Until they all gel and can prove their worth talent-wise, I think Spags will be more scheme oriented and hopefully more strategically aggressive this year.
If we avoid the major injury bug we will surprise. I cannot see that not happening.
I said on another thread that I recall reading that the great 2000 Ravens defense had all of 5 man games lost to injuries to starters on defense. We could use a year like that! You keep continuity you win.
Giants have been deficient in pass rushers ever since Strahan retired and Tuck was shoved in the back by Flozell Adams. The reason why I haven't been as critical of Perry Fewell as most other BBIers is because of this.
On paper this is the most talented Dline the Giants have had since 2007, so there really should be no excuse for Spags this year if there's another bad performance by the defense.
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maximized by scheme. And it's collective talent on D. One guy can be schemed for by the offense with chips and double teams. If you have talent at multiple spots up front, the D scheme can really maximize how much pressure you can bring.
True. One guy can likely be stopped if you focus your efforts on stopping him with TE and RB chips and more.
That is why I like the fact that we appear to have 3 solid pass rush guys on our front in JPP, Vernon and Hankins. I have high hopes JPP just rebounds with his 3 fingers and dominates with his superb physicality. He has the tools and if he can grip well enough with 3 fingers we are going to be very good indeed.
Dallas is a team that worries me in the sense that they appear to have an OL that is in its prime; a TE that can block in Witten; and, a new RB in Elliott who supposedly can protect Romo very well even if he is a rookie. Hard to get to Romo and knock him out if they focus on mass protecting him.
Dallas offensive line is no,joke. However,Vernon is a guy who ate Tyrion Smith for lunch last season. Jpp has also had some decent games against Smith.
The key,as always is creating pressure with a four man rush. I can't wait to watch how this lines stacks up against their line.
I think it's a great test for these guys.
http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/PFF-Tyron-Smith-records-worst-game-of-season-41328051
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In comment 13038561 Crispino said:
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maximized by scheme. And it's collective talent on D. One guy can be schemed for by the offense with chips and double teams. If you have talent at multiple spots up front, the D scheme can really maximize how much pressure you can bring.
True. One guy can likely be stopped if you focus your efforts on stopping him with TE and RB chips and more.
That is why I like the fact that we appear to have 3 solid pass rush guys on our front in JPP, Vernon and Hankins. I have high hopes JPP just rebounds with his 3 fingers and dominates with his superb physicality. He has the tools and if he can grip well enough with 3 fingers we are going to be very good indeed.
Dallas is a team that worries me in the sense that they appear to have an OL that is in its prime; a TE that can block in Witten; and, a new RB in Elliott who supposedly can protect Romo very well even if he is a rookie. Hard to get to Romo and knock him out if they focus on mass protecting him.
Dallas offensive line is no,joke. However,Vernon is a guy who ate Tyrion Smith for lunch last season. Jpp has also had some decent games against Smith.
The key,as always is creating pressure with a four man rush. I can't wait to watch how this lines stacks up against their line.
I think it's a great test for these guys.
http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/PFF-Tyron-Smith-records-worst-game-of-season-41328051
I do like our top 3 corners as I feel Eli Apple will be better than people think, the top corner in the draft not name Ramsey.
Now, I do believe Dallas will use their TE's and RB's and FB to help mass protect Romo. That is going to be a year long mantra for them.
Or that Hankins has transformed himself somehow or has a fire burning under him because of his contract year status.
It's going to be tough to get it done without a 3rd DE emerging. If not OO, maybe Ishaq Williams or Okwara?
Or that Hankins has transformed himself somehow or has a fire burning under him because of his contract year status.
It's going to be tough to get it done without a 3rd DE emerging. If not OO, maybe Ishaq Williams or Okwara?
Height 6'3"
Weight 267
Arms 33.75"
Hands 11"
40: 4.62
Bench 25 reps
Vertical 39"
Broad jump 127"
3 cone 7.36
20 yd shuttle 4.19
60 yd shuttle 11.75
Those #s are about as freakish as I have ever seen, in the mode of Justin Tuck or JPP but super charged. Or to give another perspective, his jump numbers are halfway in the middle between Jalen Ramsey's (best of any player at the combine) and Ezekiel Elliot's!
Now if the Giants can teach this kid to actually rush the passer and keep him healthy, he could be as big a difference maker as anyone to the pass rush this coming season. The team is banking on this, big time.
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it will mean OO hasn't taken the next step that the Giants badly need him to do.
Or that Hankins has transformed himself somehow or has a fire burning under him because of his contract year status.
It's going to be tough to get it done without a 3rd DE emerging. If not OO, maybe Ishaq Williams or Okwara?
I think you need inside push as much as you need outside rush. Hankins was a stud in 2014 but failed in 2015 . It is a contract year for him and I have to believe he bounches back. We need both OO and Bromley to develop and rotate with Wynn getting some time in there as well. It is a long year.
3rd and long Hankins shouldn't be on the field, period.
[quote] In comment 13038803 SGMen said:
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In comment 13038802 BlueLou said:
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it will mean OO hasn't taken the next step that the Giants badly need him to do.
Or that Hankins has transformed himself somehow or has a fire burning under him because of his contract year status.
It's going to be tough to get it done without a 3rd DE emerging. If not OO, maybe Ishaq Williams or Okwara?
I think you need inside push as much as you need outside rush. Hankins was a stud in 2014 but failed in 2015 . It is a contract year for him and I have to believe he bounches back. We need both OO and Bromley to develop and rotate with Wynn getting some time in there as well. It is a long year.
3rd and long Hankins shouldn't be on the field, period. [/quote3rd and really long (say 8+) I may agree, but who else do we have to move inside? Ayers is gone?
I have this "crzy idea / hope" that FB DL Nikita develops into a pass rusher in camp, a specialist. Maybe he lines up inside? I just don't know who we have right now.
During that magical year was it talent, scheme or both?
Mostly talent. Offensive lines could not handle what we threw at them (ask Tom Brady how he graded his o-line after that Super Bowl?). We all all know that answer. They got their asses handed to them.
You have LT...You have Michael Strahan, you have Justin Tuck, Osi, Leonard Marshall even (and these are just Giants). Talent surpasses scheme. Scheme masks talent (not all the time).
I'll take talent over scheme most of the time.
Sure u start w talent but let's not forget our own recent history. How come the Giants sucked so bad under Tim Lewis and Spags came in a got quite a bit better results? It's both. One can make up for the other at times but guys like Lewis and Sherridan with some of the same players got much less from their players.
"We don't even have what you're doing"
he should benefit and get as many sacks as he had in his
rookie season . I'm just amped to see this defense come
together It may take a few games to get on track but when
it does look the fuck out ....
Conversely, Fewell decided our pass rush was so bad that blitzing was pretty much a waste of time. His "scheme" was to send only 3 or 4 90% of the time, and drop back in coverage. This didn't work either, just like Spags.
Either way could've worked if we had better talent, but with nothing it really doesn't matter what we do. On a side note, this is one reason that I think out DB's are better than given credit for. No DB could last out there with the QB getting 10 seconds to throw. DB's on teams with good pass rushes have a much easier job, just hang on for 5 seconds and cover the shorter routes first.
"We don't even have what you're doing"
And LT supposedly replied: "Well you better put it in [the playbook] then!"
I remember listening to an interview with a defensive lineman (I forgot who it was, but that's irrelevant) a few years ago and he was asked the same question about how important the scheme was. His answer was simple. He said that no matter what the scheme is, it all comes down to the one-on-one battles. You have to win your one-on-one battles.
he should benefit and get as many sacks as he had in his
rookie season . I'm just amped to see this defense come
together It may take a few games to get on track but when
it does look the fuck out ....
I can definitely see guys like LB Robinson, S Collins, S Behre, LB Kennard even "run blitzing" and causing havoc more because of his presence. He also will make things easier for LB's who won't get tied up as much. Also, I think DT Hankins is above average as well which will make running up the middle difficult.
Simply put, I see Spags slowly opening up his "playbook" (aka scheme) more because he now has personnel that can employ it, the skilled. You have to have mad talent, guys that can win their "one on one" matchups to truly make a scheme efficient. I think we have some of those pieces.
I do wish we had one more pass rush DL "demon" type. I still have hopes that college pass rush stud and last year's FB Nikita surprises in camp and becomes a de facto backup FB, DL and stud special teamer for us and sticks somehow. If he is a kid who can do spot duty on 3rd downs and actually bring real heat regularly we are in great shape for 2016.
The healthier the team the better your chances. That is why I am really hoping Spags and McAdoo's units both stay healthy, especally the starting 22. We also need to get healthy - guys like WR Cruz, S B. Jackson, S N. Behre, TE Donnell, DT Hankins, etc.
A healthy group of DL's with rotation and depth will be our true strength on defense so I'm praying that is how things fall out for us.
The healthier the team the better your chances. That is why I am really hoping Spags and McAdoo's units both stay healthy, especally the starting 22. We also need to get healthy - guys like WR Cruz, S B. Jackson, S N. Behre, TE Donnell, DT Hankins, etc.
A healthy group of DL's with rotation and depth will be our true strength on defense so I'm praying that is how things fall out for us.