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Is Tom Coughlin The Greatest Coach In Team History?

gidiefor : Mod : 7/20/2016 10:45 am
I lived through the Parcells Era and the Coughlin Era - and they both provided some great thrills - the article linked below says the biggest difference between them is the way they both left and gives the edge to Coughlin for his loyalty to the Giants.

I agree -- and I'll take it one step more -- in terms of the thrilling wins, and surprisingly thrilling wins - there were more under Coughlin -- and they were more frequent then they were through the Parcells era, and he did more with less.

To Date: Tom Coughlin is the GOAT!!!!!
tom-coughlin-will-enter-giants-ring-of-honor-as-greatest-coach-in-team-history - ( New Window )
Greatest coach in Giants history might be  
Giants2012 : 7/20/2016 10:47 am : link
Belichick with Lombardi and Landry in the mix with Parcells.
nope  
micky : 7/20/2016 10:50 am : link
.
Let me be the first to get this out of the way  
Vin R : 7/20/2016 10:54 am : link
Without a doubt.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 7/20/2016 10:54 am : link
Remember that both of Parcels super bowl wins had Little Bill as his defensive coordinator and they won on defense. Coughlin never had that type of supporting cast.
Parcells  
pjcas18 : 7/20/2016 10:59 am : link
so many factors. look at the NFC when Parcells was coaching the Giants, the 49ers were in their dynasty, the Redskins were very good, Aikman/Irvin/Emmitt were just being born, the Bears had one of the greatest defenses in history and the Eagles had Reggie White in a star-studded defense and a pretty good offense. and more...

there was just not the same parity you see today.
What?  
Doomster : 7/20/2016 11:09 am : link
Without a doubt.
redwhiteandbigblue : 10:54 am : link : reply
Remember that both of Parcels super bowl wins had Little Bill as his defensive coordinator and they won on defense. Coughlin never had that type of supporting cast.


So Phil Simms and the offense had nothing to do with that first SB?

And it was Spag's defense that shut down, probably the greatest offense , ever, in NFL history, yet Coughlin "never had that type of supporting cast."

Unfortunately, TC's tenure is tarnished by the fact his teams only won playoff games in two post seasons(out of 14 seasons), failed to make the playoffs 6 out of the last 7 seasons, and his career finished on a sour note with 3 straight losing seasons.....so greatest? No.....



The two best Giants HCs in my lifetime  
Beer Man : 7/20/2016 11:14 am : link
were Big Bill and TC. The best coaches in Giants history were allowed to leave only to become some of the greatest HCs in NFL history - Lombardi, Landry, and Little Bill
If head coach of Giants ? Yes  
shabu : 7/20/2016 11:22 am : link
Parcels had lil Bill LT etc.

I still rank Eli over Simms, but Coughlin beat lil Bill 2x in Superbowls with teams that were not dominant all season and in the end much less of a team.

TC is tops in my book.

Still love 18-1 :)
If you grew up in the 70s...  
MarvelousMike : 7/20/2016 11:27 am : link
then it has to be Parcells. However, he had George Young as GM which enabled him to be so good. Back then, you only had the draft.

Thankfully, you had the Saints NOT draft LT!!
Steve Owen  
Steve in South Jersey : 7/20/2016 11:28 am : link
I think Steve Owen was considered the best for years. I didn't see that era of football so I can't compare.
Doomster  
redwhiteandbigblue : 7/20/2016 11:31 am : link
I was referring to the thread title which referred to COACHES. The bottom line is they were both great. Take it down a notch. It is my OPINION.
i'd lean towards Parcells  
djm : 7/20/2016 11:36 am : link
but it's closer than some may think. Overall bodies of work show two damn good coaches. PArcells had a bigger impact on the NFL overall though. His presence or aura alone is the stuff of legend. I'd give Parcells the edge from an organizational POV including relationship/motivational stuff but I give Coughlin the egde in terms of game day coaching. I loved the way his teams played. They were both elite though. NO doubt.
I wonder how Tom would be viewed  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 7/20/2016 11:37 am : link
if he had been given good players on a consistent basis. Since SB 46, Tom was given crap to work with...both the offensive and defensive lines were left to deteriorate and get old, drafting was awful and it appears he was cut off at the knees by a front office that spent nothing on free agents or tried to get by on bargain basement deals. This year's plunge into the FA market shows that Tom was not given any support by Reese.

Tom was an outstanding coach whose last four years were sabotaged by mediocrity in the front office not to mention an inordinate amount of serious injuries to key players (Nicks, Cruz, Beason just to name a few).

That said, I put Tom on a par with Parcells. To me, they are the two greatest coaches in Giants' history and each has 2 SBs to their credit. Only difference is Parcells had a much more consistent team during his tenure...only two of his eight years were sub. 500 years and one was done in by a strike. But he had that great defense while Tom only had a great D in 2007/2008.
Toss up.  
Gman11 : 7/20/2016 11:40 am : link
Coughlin took two teams with mediocre regular season records to the championship.

Parcells won a Super Bowl with a backup QB and over-the-hill RB (that ended up being the SB MVP).

I'd take either one.
if you're gonna slight any HC for their assistants  
djm : 7/20/2016 11:43 am : link
then you're traversing a slippery slope. And it's an unfair indictment on any HC. Go with what the eyes tell you --look at their careers with a wide lens...pull back. Everywhere the guys went they won. Coughlin even in college---showed he had amazing chops. Going the asst coaching route --how can you blame PArcells when he was directly or even indirectly the one who cultivated the coaching tree in the first place? Yeah he had help, but he also helped himself by nurturing and allowing those coaches to succeed. If anything I use Coughlin's lack of asst coach star power against him. But only a little bit.

Just ask yourself if you'd feel great starting a team with scratch with either guy running the show. We all would. I think i'd feel a little little better if I know that guy was Parcells. It's close though. I think the final factor is Parcells choosing the right coordinators.
RE: Without a doubt.  
Moondawg : 7/20/2016 11:43 am : link
In comment 13039127 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
Remember that both of Parcels super bowl wins had Little Bill as his defensive coordinator and they won on defense. Coughlin never had that type of supporting cast.


That could be easily interpreted to mean that Bill was better, since he was a better judge of coordinator talent.
Parcells, easily  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 11:45 am : link
.
How Parcells took a moribund franchise to glory  
Moondawg : 7/20/2016 11:51 am : link
gives him the edge. But no slight to TC, whose own achievements put him in special company.
Different Eras  
Steve in South Jersey : 7/20/2016 11:52 am : link
George Young was a GREAT GM before the game changed and allow free agents. Parcells benefited very much from having George as his GM.

Coughlin beat far better teams to win those two Super Bowls.
Now if you are asking me  
redwhiteandbigblue : 7/20/2016 12:12 pm : link
who the best head coach (all teams) is in the last 40 years I would not even blink and say Belichick. Not only for his multiple super bowl wins and appearances as a head coach, but both Parcells' super bowl wins he was the DC.
I put Coughlin a notch above Parcells  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 12:18 pm : link
both are HOFers
RE: Different Eras  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13039243 Steve in South Jersey said:
Quote:
Coughlin beat far better teams to win those two Super Bowls.


Really? The 1990 Giants went into Candlestick and beat the 14-2 two-time defending champs on their field, then beat the 13-3 Bills who had just won the AFC title game by a score of 51-3. The 1986 Giants beat the Redskins for the third time in the NFC title game, the same Redskins who would win a title themselves the following season, and blew out the Niners 49-3.
I hate these threads  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 12:27 pm : link
They always end up unfairly criticizing great Giants.
I wouldn't put Coughlin anywhere near Parcells  
WideRight : 7/20/2016 12:34 pm : link
Coughlin's attributes were preparation, attention to detail and determination. Very important elements of winning, but nothing special. He just did it better than others at the right times.

Coughlin was not creative. I don't think he developed anything new in his career. He doesn't have a "tree" of coaches who are developing his concepts into their own winning programs. And he was a particularly poor game manager - he could lose games like the best of them: Wade Phillips, Norv Turner etc.

Coughlin's big wins were typically defined by spectacular plays, usually by Eli. Parcell's often won incredible games with whatever happened to be working that day, including special teams - something Coughlin was inept at. Its safe to say that Coughlin's reputation is more dependant on Eli than Parcell's is on Taylor.

Coughlin may actually have had more coaching success at Jacksonville, I don't know, but Parcells did equally well or better than Coughlin while coaching other teams.





Agreed.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 7/20/2016 12:37 pm : link
Coughlin, Parcells, Belichick...all great Giants. Cannot wait to see the reception he gets on Nov. 14 when he is inducted for the Ring of Honor. I for one will be leading the applause.
And here wevery go  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 12:38 pm : link
Parcells had some epic end of game debacles after the Giants. He also had some of the best defensive talent in history.
RE: And here wevery go  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13039316 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Parcells had some epic end of game debacles after the Giants. He also had some of the best defensive talent in history.


Bahaha...do you REALLY want to go to the "debacle" well in defense of Coughlin? I don't think that's going to go well for you.
I was responding to Wide Rights incorrect post  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 12:43 pm : link
We get it. You despise Coughlin
RE: Parcells, easily  
LAXin : 7/20/2016 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13039220 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


Yes, Parcells easily. Their similarity mostly ends with each having two glorious titles:

1. Missing the playoffs in six of seven seasons, with an alway-healthy HOF-caliber QB in his prime, is just horrible. Parcells did not have this embarrassment.

2. Someone posted this before, Parcells' team was blowed out (losing by 14 or more) like 3 or 4 times in his 8 years. That number during Coughlin's Giants tenture is like 15 to 20, alarmingly, even laughably, high, for someone we want to send to Canton.

TC also had the only two games over a 10-year period in the entire NFL in which his team led by 21 in the 4th quarter.

3. Almost all opposing coaches feared Bill Parcells as he often outcoached them. He consistently got the best of two of the best HCs of all time, Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh. Yes I know and I am very thankful that TC beat little Bill twice, but did we have the sense that head coaches around the league genuinely worried or even feared TC -- about his strategy, about his adjustment, about him always having his players 100% ready to play ? Respect, yes. Fear, hardly.

Parcells was better  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 12:56 pm : link
I really like Coughlin, but it has to be remembered that the two teams that won with him were flashes in the pan. The one really good team he had in a decade suffered an absolutely awful playoff one and done at home.

Parcells had at least three teams that were better than any we had under Coughlin. And the excellence of Parcells's staff (which included Coughlin) is a credit to Parcells. By contrast some of Coughlin's hires have ranged from mystifying to plain awful.
And yes,  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 12:57 pm : link
I feel like much of Eli Manning's prime has been wasted.
no parcells  
mdc1 : 7/20/2016 12:57 pm : link
.
This is such bullshit  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 1:09 pm : link
Did you conduct a survey?

Almost all opposing coaches feared Bill Parcells as he often outcoached them. He consistently got the best of two of the best HCs of all time, Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh. Yes I know and I am very thankful that TC beat little Bill twice, but did we have the sense that head coaches around the league genuinely worried or even feared TC -- about his strategy, about his adjustment, about him always having his players 100% ready to play ? Respect, yes. Fear, hardly.
People compare the 2 coaches  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 1:12 pm : link
Like everything else is exactly the same. In fact, it's so different it's impossible to make valid comparisons. People also remember Parcells with a romantic like memory. He has more than his share of wartaking.

I'm done, please continue
If you born after 2000 then I guess he is  
Mason : 7/20/2016 1:13 pm : link
smh. 'Everything modern is great'.
RE: I was responding to Wide Rights incorrect post  
WideRight : 7/20/2016 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13039323 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
We get it. You despise Coughlin


A little sensitive to criticism, eh? Nobody on this board in their right mind would despise Coughlin (unless they are a stalking Pats fan). Choosing one as the greatest in no way implies the other is bad.

Pick your points and make them: Parcells had some debacles and also had great defenses (which he helped coached btw)? So Coughlin is better? I'm OK with your opinion, even though most of us don't agree with it or the reasoning behind it. By my opinion was in no way "incorrect"...
RE: This is such bullshit  
LAXin : 7/20/2016 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13039360 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Did you conduct a survey?

Almost all opposing coaches feared Bill Parcells as he often outcoached them. He consistently got the best of two of the best HCs of all time, Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh. Yes I know and I am very thankful that TC beat little Bill twice, but did we have the sense that head coaches around the league genuinely worried or even feared TC -- about his strategy, about his adjustment, about him always having his players 100% ready to play ? Respect, yes. Fear, hardly.


AP, rest assured I don't consider you as bullshit, just shit. Period.

And it has nothing to do with you disagreeing with my position.
Both very good but not great  
Flash : 7/20/2016 1:17 pm : link
Parcells was great at adjusting at half time Coughlin not so much. Entirely different both suited to the era that they were successful in. Coughlin did better with the players he had which were less talented. Toss up,
Steve Owen - the rock the Giants were built upon.  
truebluelarry : 7/20/2016 1:18 pm : link
He stewarded the Giants through the Great Depression, World War II (when rosters were decimated) and threats from three rival leagues.

He was THE defensive genius of Pro Football's first half century, the his Umbrella Defense is what Tom Landry conceived his coordinated 3-4 Defense from.

Nobody ever replicated Owen's A-Formation, though Mel Hein had a lot to do with that success.

Owen was also the first coach to strategically use the field goal when conventional wisdom was punt the opponent deep inside their 10-yard line and force them to make a mistake (or punt the ball back to you). Owen personally trained Ward Cuff to placekick, even though he had never done so in high school or college, and he brough Ken Strong out of retirement as a kicking specialist during the war.

The Giants won more division titles and had more postseason appearances than any other team under his leadership, and his rivals included George Halas and Curly Lambeau.



RE: And yes,  
LAXin : 7/20/2016 1:22 pm : link
In comment 13039341 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I feel like much of Eli Manning's prime has been wasted.


Absolutely, considered they had a HOF-caliber QB in his prime and never missed even a snap, they left trophies, or at least a few playoff victories, which is the 2nd most glorious achievement in team sports, on the table.
No. His teams  
Bubba : 7/20/2016 1:23 pm : link
had too many breakdowns for me. Parcells teams were far more consistent.
IMO Coughlin reaped the benefits of having the greatest QB  
David in LA : 7/20/2016 1:24 pm : link
in Giants history lining up behind center. I also felt like we left a lot of wins on the table, had problems developing depth, knowing when to let go of aging veterans, and major issues putting together a coaching staff. With all the warts and all, Coughlin is a deserving HOF candidate, and the ring of honor is a no brainer.
RE: And yes,  
David in LA : 7/20/2016 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13039341 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I feel like much of Eli Manning's prime has been wasted.


I'm grateful for the 2 rings and all, but I wonder how the perception of Eli would change around the league if he won 2 SB's in the McAdoo offense.
I only go back to Sherman  
Bill in UT : 7/20/2016 1:36 pm : link
(the coach, not the General). Parcells is my guy. There was no "let's just hope we can win the East, then anything can happen in the playoffs" those days. He put together clearly dominant teams.
To me the tragedy is 2008  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 1:51 pm : link
A great team with the opportunity to solidify this era as a special one that deserves to be marked in the history of the league. If they win that year and again in 2011 the entire story is so very different.

From the perspective of a Giants fan twenty years from now I think this era will be much kinder to Eli than it is to Coughlin. The last few years didn't remove all of the luster, but it removed some for Coughlin.
I have nothing but the highest regard for Bellichick  
Essex : 7/20/2016 2:00 pm : link
And the Super Bowl games do not nearly tell the whole story, but I often think that our XXV victory is misunderstood as time goes on. I know BB's game plan is in the hall of fame, but we did give up 19 points in 19 minutes. It was the brilliant plan by Parcells to grind the game out with ball possession that was the tactic that most influenced the outcome. Ironically, too, our defense was fortunate in the first super bowl only to have given up 10 points in the first half--Denver drove down twice and there was a missed FG and a goal line stand. The defense bailed itself out, but Elway and co. was moving effectively in the first half. Now, of course, the defensive effort that was BB's masterpiece was the two games in 90 against the niners, the way he could stop that offense with those weapons was crazy, giving up 7 and 13 points respectively on the road. Having both those quality coaches on our staff was something we might never see again (and we were doubly fortunate since in the 50s we had Lombardi and Landry running the offense and defense).
Top 3 for TC...  
Torrag : 7/20/2016 2:05 pm : link
...he could be 1-2-3 depending on your personal preference.
as mentioned earlier  
mdc1 : 7/20/2016 2:31 pm : link
TC's team were streaky and largely successful based on the heroic efforts of specific players (Eli, Plax, Bradshaw). Beyond that not very consistent teams. Parcells took average guys built a very consistent team and dominated opponents.
Wasn't TC a Giant for those first 2 SB iwns?  
Bill L : 7/20/2016 2:38 pm : link
If so, that gives him 4 SB victories for the Giants to BP's two.
I came of age in the '70s, and I still think it's TC  
exiled : 7/20/2016 2:43 pm : link
I've never had a sports moment like SB 42, and I can't imagine one like that again. That on top of the run that team had. It's as good as it can possibly get for a sports fan. No other football fan base has a game like that. Not really. Not 18-1.

(The ball going through Buckner's legs is maybe a close second for me personally.)

RE: Wasn't TC a Giant for those first 2 SB iwns?  
MBavaro : 7/20/2016 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13039528 Bill L said:
Quote:
If so, that gives him 4 SB victories for the Giants to BP's two.


I think it was just the 2nd one.
RE: Wasn't TC a Giant for those first 2 SB iwns?  
David in LA : 7/20/2016 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13039528 Bill L said:
Quote:
If so, that gives him 4 SB victories for the Giants to BP's two.


Come on, it's very obvious we are discussing the tenures as HC.
Plus I do not believe he was there in '86  
David in LA : 7/20/2016 2:48 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Wasn't TC a Giant for those first 2 SB iwns?  
Bill L : 7/20/2016 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13039539 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13039528 Bill L said:


Quote:


If so, that gives him 4 SB victories for the Giants to BP's two.



Come on, it's very obvious we are discussing the tenures as HC.
SO 3-2.

And the thread title just says coaches. Plus, the discussion had expanded to include how other coaches (Spags, Little Bill), may have contributed to those victories, so TC counts there as well.
But the point goes to why the whole question is fallacious  
Bill L : 7/20/2016 2:52 pm : link
there's so much extraneous stuff that goes into success that it's an impossible comparison to make.
RE: To me the tragedy is 2008  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13039431 Go Terps said:
Quote:
A great team with the opportunity to solidify this era as a special one that deserves to be marked in the history of the league. If they win that year and again in 2011 the entire story is so very different.

From the perspective of a Giants fan twenty years from now I think this era will be much kinder to Eli than it is to Coughlin. The last few years didn't remove all of the luster, but it removed some for Coughlin.


Agree entirely. That 2008 season was a major disappointment, followed by an even bigger one in 2009. Some people think it's silly, but I have a hard time letting go of that loss to Carolina that season. Still in the playoff hunt, last game in Giants Stadium with all the Giants legends in the house, playing a mediocre team with nothing to play for.....and they were humiliated by Matt freaking Moore.
RE: I came of age in the '70s, and I still think it's TC  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13039534 exiled said:
Quote:
I've never had a sports moment like SB 42, and I can't imagine one like that again. That on top of the run that team had. It's as good as it can possibly get for a sports fan. No other football fan base has a game like that. Not really. Not 18-1.

(The ball going through Buckner's legs is maybe a close second for me personally.)


It was a fabulous moment. However, it doesn't come close to 1986 as a season. There's something to be said about being the undisputed baddest sonsofbitches in the league. They were exactly that in 1990, not so much in 2007.
RE: Wasn't TC a Giant for those first 2 SB iwns?  
mdc1 : 7/20/2016 3:17 pm : link
In comment 13039528 Bill L said:
Quote:
If so, that gives him 4 SB victories for the Giants to BP's two.


Based on your math, we should elevate Bill B to top dogn then since he has rings with both the Giants and Patriots, more than both combined. then we are all good to go. lol
RE: I came of age in the '70s, and I still think it's TC  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/20/2016 3:20 pm : link
In comment 13039534 exiled said:
Quote:
I've never had a sports moment like SB 42, and I can't imagine one like that again. That on top of the run that team had. It's as good as it can possibly get for a sports fan. No other football fan base has a game like that. Not really. Not 18-1.

(The ball going through Buckner's legs is maybe a close second for me personally.)


Me Too -- and I totally agree -- as fabulous as the 80's were under Parcells -- I think TC deserves much more credit for doing what he did with much less - and I also think he gets an extra nudge for his loyalty to the Giants
A mark against Coughlin is the bad losses  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 3:28 pm : link
The entire era was one if highs and lows. The highs were obviously incredible, but some of the lows were also horrific. Parcells had the Flipper Anderson game, but there have been three or four of those with Coughlin that had huge costs.

Philly playoffs in 2008
Carolina 2009
Philly comeback in 2010

Forgot  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 3:30 pm : link
Parcells had the Jets loss in 88.
Is Tom Coughlin The Greatest Coach In Team History?  
woefulb : 7/20/2016 3:43 pm : link
You can make the argument that Coughlin had 2 of the best coaching seasons (playoffs, really) in Giants history (2007 & 2011). With his non-playoff seasons track record, though, I am not sure he was the best overall HC, particularly over Parcells.
some of you like to kill Coughlin in these debates  
djm : 7/20/2016 3:51 pm : link
don't understand why. Revisionist history along with no memory at all.
Parcells had plenty of abominable losses  
djm : 7/20/2016 3:55 pm : link
85 was a debacle. 88 and 89 were as well. And let's not even go to 1987.

The paths were different. The stories were different and PArcells didn't stick around long enough to endure the attrition that occurred 91-94. Maybe he helps to avoid those dark days. Maybe not. Coughlin stayed and suffered from 2013-2015 so that's a mark against him but if you're gonna bring up every high n low under Coughlin I can literally mirror those detriments under Parcells.

They both did great jobs here. They both brought strengths and weaknesses.
RE: some of you like to kill Coughlin in these debates  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 4:01 pm : link
In comment 13039652 djm said:
Quote:
don't understand why. Revisionist history along with no memory at all.


While ignoring Parcells warts. It's bizarre behavior for fans.
RE: Forgot  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13039624 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Parcells had the Jets loss in 88.


Which was worse than any Coughlin loss.
the losses to dallas in 85  
djm : 7/20/2016 4:06 pm : link
were dick punches of the highest order. The 88 loss to the Jets was downright criminal. Parcells should have been arrested after that game. The Giants came out flat against a terrible team. Not average. Terrible and with EVERYTHING at stake.

But let's discuss an 09 Giants team with absolutely nothing on defense losing at home to a competitive Panthers team and kill Coughlin for that.
His entire body of work  
djm : 7/20/2016 4:09 pm : link
and just using the eye test says Parcells was probably just a slightly more gifted football man. But it's close. What Coughlin accomplished over 25 years or so is not to be ignored. Everywhere he went, he won. And he did it from the ground up. The 04 Giants weren't ready to win by any stretch. They didn't even have a roster to be nurtured with really only Eli, Snee, Diehl being the exception...

Both guys could take a lost franchise to elite heights. The evidence is conclusive.
Has any other coach won 2 championships  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/20/2016 4:09 pm : link
And be shit on by fans to the extent Coughlin is?
RE: RE: Forgot  
Essex : 7/20/2016 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13039670 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13039624 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Parcells had the Jets loss in 88.



Which was worse than any Coughlin loss.

No it wasn't. It was a tough and bitter loss, but it wasn't anywhere near some of the no shows we had under TC, such as the Carolina 09 or the Philly 08 playoff game Carolina playoff game 05. The Giants showed up that day, they just got beat. We had some total no shows under TC. Please tell me when any Parcells team didn't show up at home in games of that magnitude.
RE: Has any other coach won 2 championships  
Essex : 7/20/2016 4:12 pm : link
In comment 13039685 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
And be shit on by fans to the extent Coughlin is?

The question is whether he is the best coach of all time, looking under the hood to answer that question is not shitting on him.
RE: the losses to dallas in 85  
Essex : 7/20/2016 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13039679 djm said:
Quote:
were dick punches of the highest order. The 88 loss to the Jets was downright criminal. Parcells should have been arrested after that game. The Giants came out flat against a terrible team. Not average. Terrible and with EVERYTHING at stake.

But let's discuss an 09 Giants team with absolutely nothing on defense losing at home to a competitive Panthers team and kill Coughlin for that.

The Giants were winning until the last minute. Maybe not our best, but we could have won except for bad special teams. The McConkey fumble and the kickoff right after we scored to go up. PhIlly 08, Carolina 05 and 09 we weren't even competitive and Carolina didn't make the playoffs in 09
Short answer - Yes  
NNJ Tom : 7/20/2016 4:16 pm : link
Tuna had the best Giants team ever in 86, not to mention Little Bill running the D.

Both great, but Coughlin did more with less.



wait,the '88 Jets were terrible but the '09 Panthers were competitive?  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 4:19 pm : link
The Jets were 8-7-1, the Panthers were 8-8. What's the difference?
and at least that Jets game was competitive  
Greg from LI : 7/20/2016 4:20 pm : link
They were absolutely embarrassed in that Panthers game, in front of a bunch of Giants greats in the last game in Giants Stadium. They couldn't get up enough for that game to at least compete?

BTW, who hired that shitty defensive coordinator?
RE: Forgot  
Giants2012 : 7/20/2016 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13039624 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Parcells had the Jets loss in 88.


Jets loss and the 49ers home run to Rice while in the wrong defense. 49ers the laid down in their season finale so the Giants missed the playoffs. What a missed opportunity 1988 was.
Had the injury bug not overwhelmed his last 3 years  
SGMen : 7/20/2016 4:29 pm : link
And had Reese drafted at least "average" from 2008 to 2013, well, Coughlin's tenure would likely have seen more wins and playoffs. A crying shame he got crushed with injuries and poor poor draft picks.

Also, TC's chances for "back to back" SB's was ruined when Plax shot himself. Losing the guy you had to double team allowed the Eagles to pounce on the Giants in 2008 and win that playoff game easy. The team's "psyche" was also damaged with that shot. We also had some injuries late and that didn't help either but if Plax plays we likely win and I believe still make the SB.

TC just had more "bad luck" in terms of injuries, bad draft picks to deal with and a really poor decision by Plax and Pierce.
NO!  
scouser : 7/20/2016 4:29 pm : link
Not even close.
The back to back blowouts in 2012 against Atlanta and Baltimore  
David in LA : 7/20/2016 4:31 pm : link
when we were still in playoff contention was the worst 2 game stretch I've seen when there was so much on the line.
Wait  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 4:32 pm : link
Who is shitting on Coughlin? This is a discussion, basically, of comparing Coughlin and Parcells. Parcells, by the way, is a Hall of Famer and considered one of the best in the history of the sport. Being compared to him and coming up second best is nothing to be ashamed of, and pretty fucking far from being shit on.

Tom Coughlin was an excellent coach and an all time Giant. That doesn't make him Parcells.
RE: RE: Forgot  
Go Terps : 7/20/2016 4:36 pm : link
In comment 13039670 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13039624 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Parcells had the Jets loss in 88.



Which was worse than any Coughlin loss.


No it fucking was not. The '88 team wasn't going anywhere. The '08 team was the best in the league and two home wins against flawed teams away from going to the Super Bowl to repeat. An enormous blown opportunity.

The '10 team could have also made serious noise if they didn't spit the bit so terribly against Philly.
. . .  
Giants2012 : 7/20/2016 4:42 pm : link
the 88 team was a blown coverage to Rice from being 11-5 even though they blew the Jets game. That team had a shot and no way the 49ers wanted a part of them. They had a shot
Parcells was my guy, a Jersey guy who handled the press like  
TheMick7 : 7/20/2016 4:48 pm : link
no other & outcoached his opponents. I was devastated when he left.But to me, Tuna & TC are 1A & 1B. You decide who's A & B!
All three were great coaches (Owen, Parcells,Coughlin)  
PatersonPlank : 7/20/2016 8:12 pm : link
However I don't see how you can put him over Parcells. Thats not a knock, he may still likely be a HOF coach. However Parcells also won 2 SB's, and also took the Pats to the SB, and took the Jets & Cowboys to the playoffs (all three were major rebuilding efforts). I don't believe any other coach has done that. In addition he was a higher winning % than Coughlin, .569 to .53 (basically 20 less losses with the same amount of wins).
RE: Parcells  
shabu : 7/21/2016 4:28 am : link
In comment 13039139 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
so many factors. look at the NFC when Parcells was coaching the Giants, the 49ers were in their dynasty, the Redskins were very good, Aikman/Irvin/Emmitt were just being born, the Bears had one of the greatest defenses in history and the Eagles had Reggie White in a star-studded defense and a pretty good offense. and more...

there was just not the same parity you see today.


Pairirty in the league ? To me that gives coughlin more cred.
RE: RE: Parcells, easily  
shabu : 7/21/2016 4:35 am : link
In comment 13039338 LAXin said:
Quote:
In comment 13039220 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


.



Yes, Parcells easily. Their similarity mostly ends with each having two glorious titles:

1. Missing the playoffs in six of seven seasons, with an alway-healthy HOF-caliber QB in his prime, is just horrible. Parcells did not have this embarrassment.

2. Someone posted this before, Parcells' team was blowed out (losing by 14 or more) like 3 or 4 times in his 8 years. That number during Coughlin's Giants tenture is like 15 to 20, alarmingly, even laughably, high, for someone we want to send to Canton.

TC also had the only two games over a 10-year period in the entire NFL in which his team led by 21 in the 4th quarter.

3. Almost all opposing coaches feared Bill Parcells as he often outcoached them. He consistently got the best of two of the best HCs of all time, Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh. Yes I know and I am very thankful that TC beat little Bill twice, but did we have the sense that head coaches around the league genuinely worried or even feared TC -- about his strategy, about his adjustment, about him always having his players 100% ready to play ? Respect, yes. Fear, hardly.


Maybe the only coach who did fear Coughlin is the guy in New England .

RE: RE: some of you like to kill Coughlin in these debates  
shabu : 7/21/2016 4:37 am : link
In comment 13039667 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13039652 djm said:


Quote:


don't understand why. Revisionist history along with no memory at all.



While ignoring Parcells warts. It's bizarre behavior for fans.


Ppl forget, that is a long ass time ago.
Yes.  
RicFlair : 7/21/2016 11:39 am : link
.
1. Bill Parcells  
Les in TO : 7/21/2016 12:22 pm : link
2. Tom Coughlin.

not a huge gap between them but I would say Parcells squeezed the most out of the talent and his teams were more consistent. he did have BB as his DC but choosing a good DC is a head coach's responsibility and coughlin chose some duds.

BP also provided with the Pats, Jets and to a lesser extent the Cowboys that he could turnaround a losing franchise and build a consistent winning culture.Coughlin had a great start with Jax but eventually fizzled out as was the case with the NYG albeit over a much longer timeframe.
NO  
PaulN : 7/21/2016 2:10 pm : link
NO NO and its and insult to this franchise to even suggest it. The greatest coach in the franchise history for all you idiots that don't even have the decency to do any research at all is STEVE OWEN.

He coached the team for 23 straight seasons. he took them to the NFL championship game 8 times, made the playoffs 10 times and won the championship 2 times. He had a lifetime record of 151 wins and 100 losses with 12 ties. His playoff record is 2 wins and 8 losses. His win percentage is .602. You can knock his playoff record, but the number of years and the total win percentage makes this question a dumb one in my opinion.
Link - ( New Window )
That's prefect  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/21/2016 2:14 pm : link
Let's go with Owen and move on
Everybody  
PaulN : 7/21/2016 2:20 pm : link
Wants to pound his chest and say I saw the greatest coach ever, the greatest team ever, its all about the ME generation, and in the meantime nobody bothers to look at the facts. That means nothing at all. This has become a dumb website. There are a few great posters and great fans here. To you I say thank you. These types of meaningless threads are becoming the norm around here. When you have nothing more to contribute, start a great controversy and get your names in the BBI limelight. LOL.
Coach or Head Coach?  
OldPolack : 7/21/2016 3:35 pm : link
If it's Coach Tom Landry was by far the best Coach in in Giant history.
He took the COWBOYS, an expansion team and made them contenders. He was the a pioneer using the 4/3 defensive line.
5 Super Bowl appearances
2 Super Bowls
13 Division Titles
20 Consecutive winning seasons
I would bet there were a lot of nasty things said about Giants coaches  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/21/2016 3:41 pm : link
back in the 80s too, if there had been a BBI back then. We have a tendency to look back fondly on things like it was all roses.
Of course there were bad things said about Parcells  
Go Terps : 7/21/2016 4:18 pm : link
But take an objective look:

Seasons coached (just NYG)
Parcells - 8
Coughlin - 12

Winning %
Parcells - .610
Coughlin - .531

Winning seasons
Parcells - 6
Coughlin - 6

10 win seasons
Parcells - 5
Coughlin - 4

Playoff appearances
Parcells - 5
Coughlin - 5

Division titles
Parcells - 3
Coughlin - 2

Playoff record
Parcells - 8-3
Coughlin - 8-3

Super Bowl titles
Parcells - 2
Coughlin - 2

There is no single category in which Coughlin has managed to be better than Parcells's equal, and in most he is not. The sample size is, relatively speaking for the average head coach career, enormous.

Again Coughlin had an excellent career. He probably just hung around too long. It happens.
RE: Plus I do not believe he was there in '86  
Carson53 : 7/21/2016 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13039541 David in LA said:
Quote:
.
.

He was not, my choice would be Parcells. They were in a lot
worse shape when Parcells took over the Giants.
Ray Perkins left it kind of messy. I know Coughlin took
over a 4-12 team back in 2004, and the players kind of quit
on Fassel... believe me they were worse off when Parcells took over.
My issue with Coughlin..  
Sean : 7/22/2016 7:08 am : link
the 2007 and 2011 teams went 10-6 & 9-7, yet both got hot and won a Super Bowl. Couldn't I make the argument that both of those teams underachieved during the regular season?
You could argue anything  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/22/2016 12:02 pm : link
Regardless of how stupid it is
RE: RE: Plus I do not believe he was there in '86  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/22/2016 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13040963 Carson53 said:
Quote:
In comment 13039541 David in LA said:


Quote:


.

.

He was not, my choice would be Parcells. They were in a lot
worse shape when Parcells took over the Giants.
Ray Perkins left it kind of messy. I know Coughlin took
over a 4-12 team back in 2004, and the players kind of quit
on Fassel... believe me they were worse off when Parcells took over.


Perkins didn't leave a mess. Holy crap
Perkins did leave a total mess..  
WideRight : 7/22/2016 12:53 pm : link
They had a worse than zero offense. 4339 yds total. 3.6 yds/carry. Simms QBR was 58.

My bet it was probably one the worst offenses in Giants history. D was talented, but not good enough to cover for that crap on O.
RE: You could argue anything  
Big Al : 7/22/2016 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13041664 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Regardless of how stupid it is
Practice in this for you did not make perfect.
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