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NFT: Protestor tries to burn flag, sets self on fire

Greg from LI : 7/21/2016 10:10 am
Please note: as a First Amendment absolutist, I believe wholeheartedly that flag burning is protected speech.

That said....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quote:
“You’re on fire! You’re on fire, stupid!” a Cleveland officer shouted at a protester while firing the extinguishing spray.

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Rick Monday, right?  
Greg from LI : 7/21/2016 11:56 am : link
the first overall pick in the first ever MLB draft
RE: Rick Monday, right?  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 11:57 am : link
In comment 13040449 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
the first overall pick in the first ever MLB draft


exactly.
aside from the politics  
aquidneck : 7/21/2016 12:00 pm : link
Not so different than a guy blowing his hand off with firecrackers I think.
RE: RE: Burning a cross is free speech  
Deej : 7/21/2016 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13040418 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13040406 Bill L said:


Quote:


isn't it?




Sort of. Virginia v. Black held that cross-burning prohibitions are constitutional only when there is a clear intent to intimidate with the threat of bodily harm. The burden is on the state to prove that intent.


Thomas's dissent is probably my favorite thing he has written. Ultimately I think the Majority has the law correct, but his call to acknowledge what the cross burning obviously was meant to do is important. He should have started it by referring to the other justices as "The cracker-ass crackers in the Majority".
So was Rick Monday ...  
Csonka : 7/21/2016 12:11 pm : link
guilty of obstructing their right to free speech?
hopefully whatever he is getting paid by Soros  
mdc1 : 7/21/2016 12:13 pm : link
covers his medical bill
..  
Named Later : 7/21/2016 12:14 pm : link
Well, we could go all Turkish on the Flag Burners and give the government sweeping new "state of emergency powers to root out the virus of subversion"

Man, there's going to be a lot of Out of the Office Auto Replies on Turkish emails.
The only offense worse than burning...  
BamaBlue : 7/21/2016 12:28 pm : link
the U.S. Flag is smoking a cigarette. Try it sometime... if you want to retaliate to a gang of flag burners.
RE: So was Rick Monday ...  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13040468 Csonka said:
Quote:
guilty of obstructing their right to free speech?


they were in the outfield of a baseball stadium during a game. I don't know the legal term, trespassing maybe? but they were committing a different crime that superseded their 1st amendment rights.
RE: Can I just go outside and burn stuff?  
Cam in MO : 7/21/2016 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13040427 Csonka said:
Quote:
Don't I need a permit or something.


You're fine to burn a cross in your yard should you chose to (depending on the laws in your township.)

Of course, those laws have nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with fire safety.

The burning a cross analogy is kinda silly considering that the entire purpose is to burn the cross in the yard of the folks you are trying to intimidate.

I'm not sure if I'm familiar with the ol' "burn a flag in whitey's yard to get them to move out of our neighborhood" tactic.



aside from the headline  
fkap : 7/21/2016 12:42 pm : link
the article said nothing about a guy lighting himself on fire.

the cynical side of me says a cop was yelling 'you're on fire', but thinking 'take this douchebag' while dousing a guy with a fire extinguisher.

or it may just be another shitty written or edited (which took out the relevant parts) article.
RE: 1989, actually  
Deej : 7/21/2016 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13040414 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Texas v. Johnson is the Supreme Court decision that struck down flag burning prohibitions, decision issued June 21, 1989.


Interestingly, the "Johnson" in TX v. Johnson was arrested yesterday protesting the RNC convention.
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I am at odds with a lot of recent 1A jurisprudence....  
Dunedin81 : 7/21/2016 12:47 pm : link
If this thread is still up when I'm t a computer I'll write in.more detail, but flag burning, cross burning and the permitting of a tort suit against assholes protesting funerals strike me, for various reasons, as things that can and should be the sphere of things a government should be able to regulate.
did they buy the flag? if so they can do whatever they want with it  
GMAN4LIFE : 7/21/2016 12:49 pm : link
right?

isnt that free speech?
RE: simple solution  
Matt M. : 7/21/2016 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13040300 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
make the flag flame retardant.
They are not supposed to be. One of the accepted methods to dispose of a flag is to burn it.
RE: I detest flag burning  
Matt M. : 7/21/2016 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13040335 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
other than ceremoniously to dispose of a tattered or worn flag per etiquette, but if you support the first amendment you really have to understand that flag burning is something you want allowed.

I mean you hope people don't do it as a form of protest, since many find it disrespectful, but once you limit it you start chipping away at the first amendment and it's only a matter of time before the next thing gets removed from protection and before you know it we're a bunch of communists with restricted speech.

I think you just have to hope incidents like this happen more often.
Perfectly stated.
==========  
GiantFilthy : 7/21/2016 12:57 pm : link
Quote:
simple solution
Jints in Carolina : 10:27 am : link : reply
make the flag flame retardant.

Too expensive. We have them made in China for a reason.
RE: I detest flag burning  
Matt M. : 7/21/2016 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13040335 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
other than ceremoniously to dispose of a tattered or worn flag per etiquette, but if you support the first amendment you really have to understand that flag burning is something you want allowed.

I mean you hope people don't do it as a form of protest, since many find it disrespectful, but once you limit it you start chipping away at the first amendment and it's only a matter of time before the next thing gets removed from protection and before you know it we're a bunch of communists with restricted speech.

I think you just have to hope incidents like this happen more often.
Perfectly stated.
RE: Some people say this was one of the best plays  
NYG27 : 7/21/2016 1:00 pm : link
pjcas18 said:
Quote:
in baseball history. I love it.



Thanks, never knew about that play. I just read up about it and truly great play by Rick Monday to save the flag.

Quote:
At Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles on April 25, 1976, two protesters ran into left-center field and tried to set fire to an American flag after the start of the bottom of the 4th inning.[13] Monday, the Cubs center fielder, had been tossing a practice ball with left fielder José Cardenal before the incident happened. After Steve Stone of the Cubs threw a pitch that made Ted Sizemore pop out, Monday dashed over and grabbed the flag to thunderous cheers. Monday ran through the infield with the flag and while walking towards the Dodgers dugout met and handed the flag over to Dodgers pitcher Doug Rau. The ballpark police officers arrested and escorted the two intruders, William Thomas and his 11-year-old son, off the field and afterwards the father of the boy was fined, charged with trespassing, and put on probation. When Monday came to bat in the top half of the 5th inning, he got a standing ovation from the crowd and the big message board behind the left-field bleachers in the stadium flashed the message, "RICK MONDAY... YOU MADE A GREAT PLAY..."
I'm neutral regarding flag burning  
WideRight : 7/21/2016 1:10 pm : link
Clearly those who do it choose it because the symbolism is inflammatory, pun intended. So it works for them. If it was prohibited they would just find another way to obtain the effect, because thats their goal. Good citizens would still be enraged. So its a wash.



What the F is "speech" anyway?  
WideRight : 7/21/2016 1:13 pm : link
From a legal perspective. Why is flag burning considered speech? Why is money considered speech according to Citizen's United?

The difference between the legal and common definitions of speech is maddening
It should be illegal  
fkap : 7/21/2016 1:32 pm : link
to advocate the overthrow of a gov't, but otherwise, we should be able to say the USA sucks. it's misguided to burn a flag, because the flag is a symbol of what the USA could/should be (the flag is NOT any given administration), but if burning it is your way of saying USA sucks, it should be allowed.

Personally, I find it far more abhorrent to see what so many do with the flag: use it as an adornment, a patch for clothing, a pattern for furniture or whatever. most people who drink out of a stars and stripes cup think they're being patriotic, but are violating the golden rule of holding the flag sacred.
Wait  
BigBlueShock : 7/21/2016 1:39 pm : link
So you find drinking from a cup with Old Glory on it actually worse than the burning of a flag? Wtf?

That's certainly a different view. If that's what you were striving for, kudos.
RE: Yup, he has the right to burn the flag.  
Mike from Ohio : 7/21/2016 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13040445 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
We have the right to call him an asshole for burning the flag. And to mock him for burning himself while trying to burn the flag. God bless America.


This is a great summation of how the 1st amendment works. No need to change anything.
BBS  
fkap : 7/21/2016 1:48 pm : link
burning a flag is an intentional display of hatred. I don't have to agree with it to respect your right to do so.

People who blithely disrespect the flag out of ignorance are folks who are ignoramuses in regards to flag etiquette. Perhaps my comment was a bit harsh because so many people are ignorant when it comes to flag etiquette, so they don't know any better, so let me amend it to say that if you drink out of a stars and stripes cup AND castigate flag burning, you are the utmost of ignoramus and worthy of contempt.
The Irony...  
Capt. Don : 7/21/2016 2:40 pm : link
of making flag burning illegal because you believe the ideals the flag represents are sacred is not lost on me.

If someone safely burns their inanimate object, nothing bad actually happens. You may get all offended but no harm is actually done.

If you start chipping away at our own freedom of expression then damage is actually done to us.
RE: It should be illegal  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13040609 fkap said:
Quote:
to advocate the overthrow of a gov't, but otherwise, we should be able to say the USA sucks. it's misguided to burn a flag, because the flag is a symbol of what the USA could/should be (the flag is NOT any given administration), but if burning it is your way of saying USA sucks, it should be allowed.

Personally, I find it far more abhorrent to see what so many do with the flag: use it as an adornment, a patch for clothing, a pattern for furniture or whatever. most people who drink out of a stars and stripes cup think they're being patriotic, but are violating the golden rule of holding the flag sacred.


I have a tattoo of the American flag on my upper arm, is that abhorrent to you?
RE: RE: It should be illegal  
Bill L : 7/21/2016 2:53 pm : link
In comment 13040736 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13040609 fkap said:


Quote:


to advocate the overthrow of a gov't, but otherwise, we should be able to say the USA sucks. it's misguided to burn a flag, because the flag is a symbol of what the USA could/should be (the flag is NOT any given administration), but if burning it is your way of saying USA sucks, it should be allowed.

Personally, I find it far more abhorrent to see what so many do with the flag: use it as an adornment, a patch for clothing, a pattern for furniture or whatever. most people who drink out of a stars and stripes cup think they're being patriotic, but are violating the golden rule of holding the flag sacred.



I have a tattoo of the American flag on my upper arm, is that abhorrent to you?
Could you fit all the stars or did you have to do the Betsy Ross version?
All 50  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 2:57 pm : link
kind of like this but nicer.

don't like flag patches eh?  
Greg from LI : 7/21/2016 2:57 pm : link
These guys might disagree

RE: Is the guy charging police brutality...  
BMac : 7/21/2016 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13040373 njm said:
Quote:
because he got sprayed with fire retardant after he set himself on fire? It would be the extreme irony if that group comes back today and chants "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon"


Right on!

RE: RE: protected speech?  
BMac : 7/21/2016 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13040408 Sec 103 said:
Quote:
In comment 13040295 Csonka said:


Quote:


I hate that ruling. A flag burner is instigating assault. I or hopefully someone else before I get there will try to beat the hell out of you. Yes, I'll be arrested for assault. I'm ok with that. Find a better way to get your point across.



THIS !!!!!


Until he drills you with his licensed, concealed Glock Mini .45!
RE: RE: Can I just go outside and burn stuff?  
BMac : 7/21/2016 3:28 pm : link
In comment 13040514 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
In comment 13040427 Csonka said:


Quote:


Don't I need a permit or something.



You're fine to burn a cross in your yard should you chose to (depending on the laws in your township.)

Of course, those laws have nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with fire safety.

The burning a cross analogy is kinda silly considering that the entire purpose is to burn the cross in the yard of the folks you are trying to intimidate.

I'm not sure if I'm familiar with the ol' "burn a flag in whitey's yard to get them to move out of our neighborhood" tactic.




In that case, it has to be a Rebel flag.
PJ/Greg  
fkap : 7/21/2016 3:37 pm : link
if you treat your tattoo as a flag, I've no problem with it.

if you treat it as a bit of skin art/jewelry/bit of clothing/etc, yeah I have a problem with it, as it violates flag etiquette.

flag etiquette allows for flag patches on military personnel.
RE: PJ/Greg  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 3:42 pm : link
In comment 13040820 fkap said:
Quote:
if you treat your tattoo as a flag, I've no problem with it.

if you treat it as a bit of skin art/jewelry/bit of clothing/etc, yeah I have a problem with it, as it violates flag etiquette.

flag etiquette allows for flag patches on military personnel.


Flag etiquette was created as a guideline, not a law. It was created to ensure no disrespectful use of the flag was taking place.

Proudly wearing a shirt (or tattoo) that says USA and has a flag on it is the furthest thing flag etiquette was created to prevent.

actually wearing a flag as clothing is probably against any interpretation of the code, but clothing with a flag on it, hardly, IMO.
I should clarify  
fkap : 7/21/2016 3:42 pm : link
what I meant by patches. back in the day, it was popular to sew a flag pattern over a rip in jeans (especially on the buttocks). it was a repair to a rip.

I wasn't thinking of a flag emblem sewn on to an arm sleeve, although admittedly, patch could be taken that way.
RE: RE: RE: Can I just go outside and burn stuff?  
Cam in MO : 7/21/2016 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13040812 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 13040514 Cam in MO said:


Quote:


In comment 13040427 Csonka said:


Quote:


Don't I need a permit or something.



You're fine to burn a cross in your yard should you chose to (depending on the laws in your township.)

Of course, those laws have nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with fire safety.

The burning a cross analogy is kinda silly considering that the entire purpose is to burn the cross in the yard of the folks you are trying to intimidate.

I'm not sure if I'm familiar with the ol' "burn a flag in whitey's yard to get them to move out of our neighborhood" tactic.






In that case, it has to be a Rebel flag.


See, that should be illegal.



Thoughts on Twitter banning Milo Y?  
BurberryManning : 7/21/2016 3:54 pm : link
His shtick is to make edgy comments to provoke SJWs into censoring the same free speech ideals (from a person of protected class, no less) that they often claim to promote.

His tweets towards Leslie Jones were terrible but it makes for interesting discussion...
RE: Thoughts on Twitter banning Milo Y?  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13040850 BurberryManning said:
Quote:
His shtick is to make edgy comments to provoke SJWs into censoring the same free speech ideals (from a person of protected class, no less) that they often claim to promote.

His tweets towards Leslie Jones were terrible but it makes for interesting discussion...


if they're consistent in their banning (unlike facebook who is overwhelmingly left wing) than I have no issue with it.

Milo is banned from a ton of places, but Arianna Huffington isn't, such a double-standard.

Agreed, PJ...  
BurberryManning : 7/21/2016 4:33 pm : link
From what I've heard, Twitter has not censured certain objectionable context such as innappropriste responses to police shootings, religious extremism, etc but drew the line with Milo's comments. I may be wrong , however because I'm not adept on the Twitter machine
Twitter's ominously named Trust and Safety Council  
Greg from LI : 7/21/2016 4:38 pm : link
is larded through and through with leftists. Of course they won't apply their rules consistently to all.
1st Amendment  
Csonka : 7/21/2016 5:11 pm : link
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

They didn't define "speech", but it certainly can be argued that it was aimed at verbal and written speech at the time. Not some symbolic gesture of burning flags or draft cards.

The Supreme Court cases in 1989 and 1990 overturned flag burning laws by a 5-4 margin, so this isn't some simple issue. And proposed flag desecration have been voted on in Congress many times, failing to pass the Senate by 1 vote in 2006.

And the "absolute" free speech right has been amended many times. While it says Congress shall make no law ... they've made exceptions in the 20th and 21st centuries, for example there are things that are not protected by the 1st amendment if said at school functions.
RE: simple solution  
Mike in Marin : 7/21/2016 6:48 pm : link
In comment 13040300 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
make the flag flame retardant.


It would be a lot better if less people were retarDED. ;-)
Call me crazy  
Mike in Marin : 7/21/2016 6:52 pm : link
but the more free speech in this world, the better. The best thing we can do to fight horrible ideologies is to not allow them to be protected from criticism.

This is especially true of religion, and one in particular, that receives more protection from the first amendment (in the US) and free speech, in general, under the guise of religious sensitivities, than all other religion and ideologies put together.
RE: The only offense worse than burning...  
SomeFan : 7/21/2016 7:45 pm : link
In comment 13040504 BamaBlue said:
Quote:
the U.S. Flag is smoking a cigarette. Try it sometime... if you want to retaliate to a gang of flag burners.


Haha! That they would probably whine about how the second hand smoke is hurting junior.
I'm as liberal as they come...  
SanFranNowNCGiantsFan : 7/21/2016 7:54 pm : link
But flag burning has always made me uncomfortable. It's your first amendment right, but I think there's better ways to protest government policies.
RE: I'm as liberal as they come...  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 8:10 pm : link
In comment 13041079 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
But flag burning has always made me uncomfortable. It's your first amendment right, but I think there's better ways to protest government policies.


Support of the first amendment is not a liberal thing, conservatives are some of the most staunchest defenders of the first amendment.

Conservatives are typically the ones who have issues with flag burning, but in general believe it's a slippery slope when you start pulling at the edges.
PJ  
SanFranNowNCGiantsFan : 7/21/2016 8:15 pm : link
I'm pretty sure liberals burn the flag more than conservatives. I've seen it multiple times. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying liberals are stronger first amendment supporters than conservatives.
RE: PJ  
pjcas18 : 7/21/2016 8:16 pm : link
In comment 13041086 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure liberals burn the flag more than conservatives. I've seen it multiple times. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying liberals are stronger first amendment supporters than conservatives.


Yep, I misread your comment. Sorry.
you can't burn your leaves in the fall  
gtt350 : 7/21/2016 9:24 pm : link
that smell was the best the flag not so much
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