As I've been told, Ron Johnson was in a class that includes Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, OJ Simpson, Adrian Peterson, Marshall Faulk. I didn't see OJ and Ron Johnson play, although I've seen plenty of highlight clips of OJ since he's, y'know, a Hall of Fame RB. But I put it to the masses: does Lou's case hold water?
And he is behind the group that included Wilbert Montgomery, Lawrence McCutcheon and William Andrews.
He was a decent player who was only average in the grand scheme of things or his peers.
To name him with some HOF'ers is complete madness.
...but Ron Johnson was a very good running back behind a not so good offensive line.
That said, the offense was clever and there were West Coast aspects to it (before there was such a thing as a West Coast offense) that gave Ron Johnson room to run and spaces to catch the ball.
Also, Ron Johnson was a very good vision runner and knew when to press a hole and when to side-step out of it. He also had the uncanny ability to step in the hole and turn sideways while still going forward.
A very, very fine player who we got for a steal by trading a fading Homer Jones.
Johnson was a gifted receiver from the backfield. As a runner he was sort of a long-strider who lacked elusiveness. He was fast enough coming out of Michigan that he returned kick-offs for the Browns. He did that occasionally for the Giants as well, if I recall correctly.
He was a big part of really the only two semi-successful seasons that the team had post YA and pre Phil-LT. He was admired throughout the league. Gil Brandt made a point of bringing Ron to the Cowboys after he parted ways with the Giants. He never made it out of camp. His knees were gone. I met Ron at the Alexanders on Fordham Rd & Kingsbridge later that fall. He told me he couldn't believe the difference in the two organizations. The Cowboys were running a state-of-the-art program while the Giants were a jerkball outfit.
In Giants history I consider his correlative to be Tiki Barber. Barber was the better player. But Ron Johnson remains a personal favorite who properly categorized should be considered as "what might have been.". Like Bavaro, Dan Lloyd and Troy Archer, who was every bit as good as Randy White.
His 1970 & 1972 seasons were HOF. He could do it all behind a small & terrible offensive line. Two time 1000 yds rushing in 14 game seasons (Today, they're 16 games, Gifford played 12 game seasons). He ran long yardage, short yardage and was a big threat to catch the ball (about 450 yds receiving). Not only did the offensive line stink, the defense wasn't much better. In '72, he carried them to a winning record even with Norm Snead as QB. He also had a very good year in '73
He missed all of '71 with an off season injury and the near playoff team's record fell to 4-10, last place. After another injury in '73, he was never the same.
If he stayed healthy and played with a great offensive line
he would have put up at least 5 1000 yard seasons ..
He took a pounding but he kept coming he was tough like
Emmit Smith
If I remember correctly, Johnson had been the first round draft choice of the Browns in '69, but didn't really play much as a rookie because he was stuck behind LeRoy Kelly. That said, he was only one of three players we got back in the Homer Jones trade (Wayne Maryland - a LB that didn't make it out if training camp and Jim Kanicki - a DT who started for us all of 1970 (and a few years after?).
So Johnson wasn't seen as equal value in and of himself for Jones.
But I do believe he was the best RB in Giants history to that point in time (he was the only one to rush for 1000 yards and he did it twice - the second time after a devastating knee injury previous season). OTOH, he only really ever had those two good years.
So, no, you can't rank him with the all-time greats to suit up as NFL RBs, but by any measure he is a top-3 all-time Giants RB and well-deserving of a place in the Giants ring of honor.
Ron Johnson was a three down back. He or Tucker Frederickson would run on 1st and 2nd down. On 3rd down Tarkenton would invariably dump it off to Johnson. He was always picking up the first down on these plays. He was just a natural fluid running back. Only injuries prevented him from having a longer career.
Gifford was my youth hero. Johnson was the first back that ranked up there with Frank.
Johnson was a gifted receiver from the backfield. As a runner he was sort of a long-strider who lacked elusiveness. He was fast enough coming out of Michigan that he returned kick-offs for the Browns. He did that occasionally for the Giants as well, if I recall correctly.
He was a big part of really the only two semi-successful seasons that the team had post YA and pre Phil-LT. He was admired throughout the league. Gil Brandt made a point of bringing Ron to the Cowboys after he parted ways with the Giants. He never made it out of camp. His knees were gone. I met Ron at the Alexanders on Fordham Rd & Kingsbridge later that fall. He told me he couldn't believe the difference in the two organizations. The Cowboys were running a state-of-the-art program while the Giants were a jerkball outfit.
In Giants history I consider his correlative to be Tiki Barber. Barber was the better player. But Ron Johnson remains a personal favorite who properly categorized should be considered as "what might have been.". Like Bavaro, Dan Lloyd and Troy Archer, who was every bit as good as Randy White.
- Chuck Foreman
- Lawrence McCutcheon
- John Brockington
- Larry Brown
- Lydell Mitchell
- Calvin Hill
- Ottis Armstrong
You can argue all those guys were better than Johnson. Heck, Brown was an MVP I think.
It is perfectly fine to say Johnson was one of the greatest RB's the Giants have had without artificially elevating him into the pantheon of greats.
- Chuck Foreman
- Lawrence McCutcheon
- John Brockington
- Larry Brown
- Lydell Mitchell
- Calvin Hill
- Ottis Armstrong
You can argue all those guys were better than Johnson. Heck, Brown was an MVP I think.
It is perfectly fine to say Johnson was one of the greatest RB's the Giants have had without artificially elevating him into the pantheon of greats.
FMIC, how old are you? I don't know why, but I have the impression you are well less than 60 years old, and are talking a lot about guys you never saw play, including Johnson...
BTW, some of those guys are very close to HOF worthy, Mitchell and Foreman in particular, very Tiki like careers.
But greatness generally is something you see, not something you measure.
Johnson was at peak as good as Tiki (Gifford before my time.)
Tiki played on better teams.
Johnson was at peak as good as Tiki (Gifford before my time.)
Tiki played on better teams.
Yeah but you still wouldn't consider Tiki on par with Earl Campbell or OJ Simpson would you?
Johnson is one of my all time favorite NY Giants and while I agree underrated by many fans today still wasn't equal to the likes of Earl Campbell or OJ Simpson etc.
We'll never know what a healthy Johnson might have done behind a good OL, let alone a great one.
Campbell, Dickerson, OJ, all had great, not merely good, OLs.
Anyway my original debate with Greg was RJ vs Jacobs. Just so the point doesn't get lost...
But actually Ron was traded by the Browns because with Cleveland he was a malcontent, did you know that? Apparently he and Alex were similar.
Ron Johnson led a pretty exceptional life after football too and was a very bright guy. Academic All American at Michigan and got an MBA at Fairly Dickinson after retirement.
and again to make it clear, never saw Johnson or OJ play. I did see Sanders play however and can say with a high degree of certainty (IMO) the line wasn't doing him any favors.
Then tier 2 for me has only 2 players - Sanders and Sayers. Neither of them had good OLs or supporting casts. Sayers had the greatest vision ever, Sanders the best raw athleticism.
After them we drop to another tier.
Quote:
His brother Alex was a damned good baseball player at times. He was an all star but had issues causing him to be traded several times. He played for the Angels, Yankees and several other teams. Ron was known to be a good teammate.
But actually Ron was traded by the Browns because with Cleveland he was a malcontent, did you know that? Apparently he and Alex were similar.
Ron Johnson led a pretty exceptional life after football too and was a very bright guy. Academic All American at Michigan and got an MBA at Fairly Dickinson after retirement.
Then tier 2 for me has only 2 players - Sanders and Sayers. Neither of them had good OLs or supporting casts. Sayers had the greatest vision ever, Sanders the best raw athleticism.
After them we drop to another tier.
But apparently he griped about being a blocking back for Kelly rather that the featured runner... He also held out his rookie year and originally signed only a 2 year deal with the Browns. Didn't his brother Alex hold out too and you gotta remember the times... 1969 was a year after MLK's assassination and a year after the black power salutes at the 1968 Olympics... Johnson, an extremely intelligent person, might have been unhappy with the Browns for any number of reasons... Then fine with the Giants who maybe treated him with more sensitivity about race relations. Weren't the Giants among the early teams to have black stars?
I'm throwing darts here, but the contract holdout and unhappiness being used as a blocking back on the Browns are Wikipedia info.
At 14 years old in '70 I wasn't a paying attention to behind the scenes stuff in pro football.
But apparently he griped about being a blocking back for Kelly rather that the featured runner...
I didn't know he griped about anything with Cleveland. He was used as a fullback with them. He played halfback in college and with the Giants, where he had tremendous success. And if he griped, was it affecting the team? Did he force the trade?
He also held out his rookie year and originally signed only a 2 year deal with the Browns.
What does this have to do with him being a malcontent? Hold outs were common in the NFL from the time of the NFL/AFL common draft until a few years ago when the league and players association agreed on pay brackets for rookies. OJ Simpson made the headlines back then because he didn't want to play for Buffalo.
Many players held out. LT held out, later he signed with the Generals while still contract with the Giants.
Again, what does this have to with Ron Johnson? Please provide facts. Willie Mays was hitting home runs through 1968 & 1969.
Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly were black stars with Cleveland. Erich Barnes, a black star and the last good defensive player the Giants had left, was traded by the Giants to Cleveland because Wellington Mara didn't like him. Bringing up race in this situation is absurd.
No you're not. You're posting nonsense.
At 14 years old in '70 I wasn't a paying attention to behind the scenes stuff in pro football.
Are you sure you're not 14 now? Please, if you're going to reply to my posts, please back it up with facts. The only thing the Johnson brothers had in common was they held out for a better contracts. Did they have the same agent?
To those that never saw Ron Johnson play, he was a team player and was one of the most popular players to play for the team.
You wrote "Johnson was on the Browns bench" - no he started every game he played for them as a rookie and had 2/3 the carries their top back Leroy Kelly did.
You wrote "Jim Brown was largely held in check by the Giants." Bullshit, that's easily checked via Brown's career stats. Brown's parsed stats vs the Giants:
Attempts: 208
Yards: 1149
Y/A: 5.52
TDs: 9
Receptions: 24
Yards: 310
Y/R: 12.92
TDd: 4
So in both Y/A rushing and Y/R receiving Brown performed considerably better vs the Giants than he did vs the league as a whole.
Get your facts straight, huh?
Jim Brown had no tail end of his career. He retired at the peak of his athletic capabilities, after the 1965 season in which he led the league by rushing for over 1500 yards in 14 games, almost doubling Gayle Sayres who finished second with 800 and change yards.
Getting back to Johnson, the game that defined him for me was a game in which I'm pretty sure he had 2 TDs and rushed for over 100 yards, but what actually stood out was in that game he had 2 long breakaway TD runs called back because of IIRC offensive line penalties. I can't recall vs who, or even if the game was a win, but I do recall calculating it at the time and with those 2 runs he would have had over 200 yards rushing, a very rare feat for that time.
It's hard for me to describe even how inept I thought that team was aside from Johnson, but good plays by him called back because of penalties were unsettling at least, perhaps even common.
Anyone recall that game? I have tried to look it up without success.
You wrote "Johnson was on the Browns bench" - no he started every game he played for them as a rookie and had 2/3 the carries their top back Leroy Kelly did.
Attempts: 208
Yards: 1149
Y/A: 5.52
TDs: 9
Receptions: 24
Yards: 310
Y/R: 12.92
TDd: 4
So in both Y/A rushing and Y/R receiving Brown performed considerably better vs the Giants than he did vs the league as a whole.
Get your facts straight, huh?
How did Brown do vs the Giants in games with the conference championship on the line? There were many. Wasn't there a playoff game too?
Please answer all my other questions, Mr Wikipedia.
If you now want to argue about a specific subset of games then bully for you I'll concede the point without looking. It's not worth the time is it?
I don't think we are really on opposite sides of anything worth debating.
Pro Football Reference is my source for stats, BTW. They do an excellent job offering parsed stats such as playoff performances, if you care to look it up to prove your "facts" as you requested of me.
Getting back to Johnson, the game that defined him for me was a game in which I'm pretty sure he had 2 TDs and rushed for over 100 yards, but what actually stood out was in that game he had 2 long breakaway TD runs called back because of IIRC offensive line penalties. I can't recall vs who, or even if the game was a win, but I do recall calculating it at the time and with those 2 runs he would have had over 200 yards rushing, a very rare feat for that time.
It's hard for me to describe even how inept I thought that team was aside from Johnson, but good plays by him called back because of penalties were unsettling at least, perhaps even common.
Anyone recall that game? I have tried to look it up without success.
I don't remember the game. That 70 team was pretty good though. Tarkenton, Tucker and Johnson made them a threat to beat anyone with O. The OL (at least from memory) wasn't that bad. Willie Young and Rich Buzzin at T, Greg Larson at C and veteran Gs who were pretty good at pulling. On defense they had Fred Dryer, Bob Lurtsema, Jim Files, Spider Lockhart, Willie Williams, Scott Eaton.
I do remember one game against Washington where they were down 16/17 points going into 4th quarter and came back to score three touchdowns and win (I think Fredrickson caught a long bomb TD pass play in this game).
Not the best or most memorable era of Giants football to be sure, but the one I remember the best because I was of a certain age and before that had only known losing.
There were a lot of solid, productive backs in those days. I'd say Johnson was a solid back, and given what the Giants looked like for most of the 70's. he was probably their best offensive player for 1972.
Like I said above, it isn't a slap to say Johnson isn't in the same class as OJ and other HOF'ers. It isn't even a slap to say he wasn't as great as Lydell Mitchell or McCutcheon. It just is what it is.
If you now want to argue about a specific subset of games then bully for you I'll concede the point without looking. It's not worth the time is it?
I don't think we are really on opposite sides of anything worth debating.
Pro Football Reference is my source for stats, BTW. They do an excellent job offering parsed stats such as playoff performances, if you care to look it up to prove your "facts" as you requested of me.
This is it, I'm done, I'm going on vacation this afternoon. Don't have time for this crap. As for Ron Johnson, I can only post about how I remember him. When the Giants traded my favorite player, my father told me they got a better player that didn't play much for Cleveland because they had Kelly ahead of him. Until yesterday, I believed that. Thank god for smart people like you to set me straight about such important facts after 45 years. Calling Ron Johnson a trouble maker and malcontent because he was 2nd fiddle to Kelly is like calling Eli Manning a trouble maker and malcontent because of what happened with San Diego and while we're on brothers being no good, do you think Eli should be investigated for rape because his brother is? Alex Johnson was troubled, he had issues. He was nothing like Ron.
As for Jim Brown, I never saw him play, but have read may books about the '56-'63 Giants. Who won all the championships? The Giants did. And they did it mostly against Jim Brown teams. I have books and if you e mail me, in time, I'll give you examples. Off the top of my head, there was one BIG game Brown broke through early and scored about an 80 yr TD. The Giants stopped him completely the rest of the game and won. If he carried 19 more times that day and gained another 20yds, he averaged 5 yds/carry. But the last 19 carries, he averaged 1 yd/carry. Bottom line, the Giants stopped Brown and won the game. Again, when I have time, I can find the game and probably the exact stats.
As for your "clearly noted speculations", Please back up your irresponsible and unfounded racism comments with facts. The '68 Olympics and MLK, what did they have to do with Ron Johnson, where did that come from? More facts about racism in Cleveland would be helpful. Also answer why his rookie hold out made him trouble like his brother?
You learn a new thing on BBI each day.
You learn a new thing on BBI each day.
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2016/02/the_sexual_assault_allegations_against_peyton_manning_explained.html
Huge difference between sexual assault.
So, you linked an article that you didn't even read?
My best guess is it was the October 11th game vs Philly at home when he had 2 rushing TDs of 68 yards in the 1st quarter and then 34 yards in the 4th quarter to break a 23-23 tie score and win the game 30-23.
That seems the likely game. But no one keeps stats of runs negated by penalties, lol. Except in my memory.
With 142 yards rushing and 15 receiving Johnson accounted for almost half the team's offense that game. Tarleton was 15/29 that game for 180 yards and zero TDs, not counting 4 sacks for more than 40 yards lost.
Obviously the Giants had other offensive weapons that year with Tucker and McNiel and Tarleton throwing, but the only offensive TDs that game were Johnson's. The Giants' other scoring was 3 Gogolak field goals and a punt return by Bobby Duhon.
Huge difference between sexual assault.
So, you linked an article that you didn't even read?
A younger fan asked about Ron Johnson and many of us gave some very good info and opinions until one person posted some ridicules garbage that evidently came out of nowhere. I don't want him to think Johnson was a bigot or selfish or any negative stuff because of a mean spirited fictional post.
Again, I'm sorry if my wording was unclear.
Johnson was a gifted receiver from the backfield. As a runner he was sort of a long-strider who lacked elusiveness. He was fast enough coming out of Michigan that he returned kick-offs for the Browns. He did that occasionally for the Giants as well, if I recall correctly.
He was a big part of really the only two semi-successful seasons that the team had post YA and pre Phil-LT. He was admired throughout the league. Gil Brandt made a point of bringing Ron to the Cowboys after he parted ways with the Giants. He never made it out of camp. His knees were gone. I met Ron at the Alexanders on Fordham Rd & Kingsbridge later that fall. He told me he couldn't believe the difference in the two organizations. The Cowboys were running a state-of-the-art program while the Giants were a jerkball outfit.
In Giants history I consider his correlative to be Tiki Barber. Barber was the better player. But Ron Johnson remains a personal favorite who properly categorized should be considered as "what might have been.". Like Bavaro, Dan Lloyd and Troy Archer, who was every bit as good as Randy White.
Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, OJ Simpson, Adrian Peterson, Marshall Faulk
And whoever said he was a cut below Dickerson is being very generous.
I loved Johnson. He was a great Giant but he is not in the same class as any of those backs.
Ditto. He was one of my favs from the 70's, along with Tucker
and Francis Tarkenton. To be honest, there wasn't much else here then!
It shouldn't have gotten to a discussion on if he was an all-time great and that's what some people were intimating.
It's obvious that some folks commenting in this thread never saw Ron Johnson play, or if they did see him only after his knee injury. Which was his whole career as a Giant except for his first in 1970.
I'm looking at you FMIC. "Probably better" than Jacobs is ridiculous, too. There is no comparison between them, and not because of "different styles."
Can't believe this is still going...
Greg I hope you learned something from this thread, seriously. Because I got the feeling you started it "like a blind man uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination."
I think Johnson is better than Jacobs, but how the hell are you going to evaluate a guy who was probably 60 pounds heavier than another and had a completely different style?
I will say this - comparing Jacobs to Johnson is a heck of a lot better debate than comparing Johnson to OJ Simpson or the slew of HOF'ers listed above.
I'll still stick to the point that Johnson was a step below a lot of 70's backs who weren't even considered elite, like McCutcheon, Mitchell, and the others I've listed above.