Andre Williams is not nearly so bad as his BBI rep.

But I'll agree, he can run with power. He can also be a terror if he gets to the second level. I dont really care about catching the ball, as much as I want him to let the play develop. If he lets holes open up and uses his decisiveness to get up field, I agree. But he needs a lot of mental work.

Hey, it worked with Tiki, maybe Andre can "get it" too.

In comment 13043746 chopperhatch said:

Quote:

But I'll agree, he can run with power. He can also be a terror if he gets to the second level. I dont really care about catching the ball, as much as I want him to let the play develop. If he lets holes open up and uses his decisiveness to get up field, I agree. But he needs a lot of mental work. Hey, it worked with Tiki, maybe Andre can "get it" too.

Saying "he's better than the consensus BBI opinion" or "he can be every bit as good as Rashad Jennings" isn't what I would call "a lot of optimism" for a 4th round pick with his raw athleticism who ran for 2000 yards as a senior in college.
Maybe hoping he can catch a bit is...

shiftiness and short area directional change ability then Williams.

I would say the better comp is Ron Dayne to date.

however, the biggest disappointment for me is that he seemed to regress in year two. IMO, the leap in advancing skills is the highest between rookie year and year two. there's certainly a lot of progression after that (for those that progress). AW looked like he was the same guy as on draft day. not a good sign.

if he's better than Jennings, it'll probably be because J's body gives out. AW has a loooooooooong way to go to be anywhere near a healthy young J, and I'm not convinced a young healthy J was ever anything to write home about.

He is a hard worker and nice kid, so I'll be pulling for him, but I don't think he's an NFL player.
Measureables simply don't count againt the intangibles a pro back has to have. I have seen dozens of backs who were drafted early but simply didn't have a sense of where the hole would be and/or the shiftiness to get to it.
He is not playing behind a road grading line that is going to get him to the second level where he can rely on strength and power - his only tools even at that level.
Herschel Walker was a man with the best measureables in the world, but I never thought he had "instincts". Sadly, I don't think this kid does either.

...for the number of carries he's had.

His 3.2 yards per carry is like 2nd or 3rd worst for non-fullback RBs with over 300 carries.

I mean, these are Maurice Carthon numbers.

that he can improve upon.

Not being able to catch the ball is simply ridiculous for a guy that has been playing the sport for years and reached this level. And don't underestimate its importance because AW in the game signals run more than any other running back in the league per a report I read in the offseason.

Hope he looks better in August otherwise he will be outside looking in during Sept...

Jennings can be the #1 back. Perkins and Vareen will be the change of pace and 3rd down backs. Darkwa will stay on the roster because he can play specials and fill in at RB every now and then.

his blocking was there on most of them. To his credit, if he catches a tackler flat footed, he has no trouble running them over. And he's not a fumbler.

I'd welcome being proven wrong...but I just don't see him as a fit for our offense. Not with Jennings, Vereen, and potentially Perkins as the new set of young legs to work with

If he doesn't have a Gaping hole to run through he is done.
No wiggle no vision awkward as a pas catcher there is no
finesse to his game .
Any NFL level running back can do damage when going through
the line untouched Williams does not have the ability to
make something out of nothing .
The vote of confidence was perhaps a motivating tool if he
makes the roster it will be due to injury .

I think Williams sticks around as a 3rd and 1, 3rd and goal type of RB.

I am also not convinced that Jennings is the answer as a feature back. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he's cut in late August. RBs deteriorate quickly in the NFL, and he's never been the healthiest of guys to begin with.

showed nothing, time to move on.

In comment 13043786 mdc1 said:

Quote:

showed nothing, time to move on.

Well, that settles it. He'll make the Pro Bowl this year.

Why is Jennings looked down upon. He is an all around back that does everything well who has been very productive for us when given the chance. The only issue with him is his injuries.

criminy, at the very least he has through camp to make his case.

the window isn't wide open, but only a fool would consider it closed. the coaches liked him. that alone gives him a shot.

I really hope he isn't on the team come September.

evaluate young RB's like Williams with the state this OL has been for his tenure, but I think it will come down to a numbers thing.

Jennings, Perkins, and Vereen are locks IMO.

So it would come down to Williams and Darkwa for the final RB spot, and it's probably 50/50 given Williams draft status, but just my eye test says Darkwa has show more with less of a line than Williams has.

The most infuriating thing about Williams struggles was that when Darkwa spelled him, it seemed he had more success.

And Williams is just over 50% converting 3rd/4th and short, I don't see him as a short yardage back. I think one of Williams or Darkwa stick not both.

In comment 13043793 robbieballs2003 said:

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Why is Jennings looked down upon. He is an all around back that does everything well who has been very productive for us when given the chance. The only issue with him is his injuries.

You're right, he does everything well and has been injured but he's not going to make any of us miss him when gone IMO. The guy is 31 years old.

In comment 13043750 JPinstripes said:

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shiftiness and short area directional change ability then Williams. I would say the better comp is Ron Dayne to date.

Please link some tape that shows Jennings as being "shiftier and [having more] short area directional change ability" than Williams. Because I looked at Jennings's highlights too and I didn't see that at all.

What I see in Jennings's highlights is better vision, more patience to let his blocks develop, and better use of changing his pace to get past opponents and to catch them at times flat footed. I don't see Jennings as shiftier or more agile or nimble than Williams at all, and I have some specific runs in mind that illustrate that.

I am open to viewing tape of Jennings's that illustrates your points. If you provide that I will then counter with the specific times in the tape I linked above where Williams shows similar if not better examples of those traits.

Off the top of my head, the long run vs the Rams where Williams jukes a safety onto the ground in the open field and goes by him untouched.

to shit or get off of the pot. When all is said and done, we may just love our RB group.

Look who's back!

Darkwa is twice as good as Williams. It's not even close. But Darkwa can't seem to stay healthy, so that's the edge that Williams has over him.

In comment 13043823 Milton said:

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Darkwa is twice as good as Williams. It's not even close. But Darkwa can't seem to stay healthy, so that's the edge that Williams has over him.

Darkwa did look good at times. But staying on the field is crucial at many positions if not all of them. In particular RBs need to pound and take a pounding... Williams does that.

why so much love for Darkwa. Yes, it's true he gets some nice positive yardage on his carries, HOWEVER, this offense is heavily reliant on the passing game. Darkwa is a huge liability here. At least Williams can block. I have watched him over and over, and Darkwa is clueless on blocking and picking up the blitz. Lost count how many times he almost got Eli killed. He whiffs almost every time. When you don't have great blocking TE's you cannot afford to have a RB who can't block. I agree, window is not yet closed on Williams.

In comment 13043839 redwhiteandbigblue said:

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why so much love for Darkwa. Yes, it's true he gets some nice positive yardage on his carries, HOWEVER, this offense is heavily reliant on the passing game. Darkwa is a huge liability here. At least Williams can block. I have watched him over and over, and Darkwa is clueless on blocking and picking up the blitz. Lost count how many times he almost got Eli killed. He whiffs almost every time. When you don't have great blocking TE's you cannot afford to have a RB who can't block. I agree, window is not yet closed on Williams.

Williams has the physical tools to block but he is not good at blocking.

His vision to improve?

In comment 13043844 joeinpa said:

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His vision to improve?

Good question. Isn't Tiki cited as an RB whose vision improved after a few years'experience? And didn't Williams address the issue of the Giants alternating between zone blocking and power blocking schemes?

I am not at all sure but Solari might be a factor, as well as OL continuity.

GPS?

the offense moved the ball well with Jennings and vereen in the game. AW was the ultimate killdrive - he was easily tackled, lacked vision and lacked hands. whenever he was back there to start a drive more times than not it was a 3 and out. I hope McAdoo has more of an ability/performance-based meritocracy than the filmroom-practice-effort meritoctacy under coughlin that enabled schlubs like Williams and Kuhn to see more live reps than the deserved. not saying that film room and practice prepration doesn't matter, because it does. but not at the expense of someone who is more physically able to do the job.

but found it interesting, there was one point during the SF game, Eli was playing with Myles White, Geremy Davis and Dwayne Harris as the WR's and Tye as the TE, Williams as the RB and Dallas Reynolds filling in a couple plays for Pugh.

The leaders in snap counts on D:

Kerry Wynn and Uani Unga (mid 60's out of 68 plays). Herzlich had 38 snaps.

Holy shit. You win a game like that and it makes you appreciate Eli even more.

can still be not good. I honestly don't know what to make of him but others in the same situation as him have had better results.

In comment 13043904 pjcas18 said:

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but found it interesting, there was one point during the SF game, Eli was playing with Myles White, Geremy Davis and Dwayne Harris as the WR's and Tye as the TE, Williams as the RB and Dallas Reynolds filling in a couple plays for Pugh. The leaders in snap counts on D: Kerry Wynn and Uani Unga (mid 60's out of 68 plays). Herzlich had 38 snaps. Holy shit. You win a game like that and it makes you appreciate Eli even more.

Well said...

why a top-notch college back can't catch well. Even if his offense didn't call for it, you learn it on your own. They should know you have to be able to catch and block to make it in today's NFL.

If he still cannot catch, I'm afraid this is his last year as a NY Giant. You can't tell an NFL defense your going to run it and be successful.

He is one guy I am NOT counting on and for those that read my posts you all know I am as "pre-camp optimistic" as it gets. His body of work isn't good. It just isn't. 3.2 ypc career? He was 2.8 ypc last year when everyone else was over 4.0!

I do want to see him play behind an improved OL, TE and FB. The coaches may have figured out by now what formation and sets he works best out of and will use him that way. I think with a true FB like Johnson leading him he'll do better but I don't think he'll ever be an NFL starter. I hope I'm wrong but 3.2ypc to date has me grimacing.

I honestly believe in O. Dwarka. He has flashed in limited duty and now appears to be healthy and has that experience with the offense.

But at the end of the day we really have to hope that rookie RB Perkins is the "real deal" and as the season goes along and he learns he'll be used more much like Bradshaw was in 2007. It is a shame the NFL has stupid rules with graduation and not being allowed to practice. Heck, if he'd have made 1/2 the off-season OTA's and practices he'd likely know the scheme enough before camp to make a dent. He is way behind for a rookie.

Is a one cut back like Eddie George. Very similar actually. He is more patient than Williams and has better vision but is not shiftier. Sets his runs up much better though.

Williams will never be the back Jennings is. Jennings is the back highly underrated on bbi. His td against Buffalo is simply one of the best big boy runs I've ever seen a Giant back make.

Jennings will produce with the right volume of carries this year.

Williams is a single dimensional back who is limited in vision and pass catching to gain more than a few carries per game.

First, a running back and his OL have to be in sync.
second running by committee made EVERYONE look bad
Third, his history shows he can perform.

It's my belief that MacAdoo sees the same things and certainly a lot more than the "experts" here on BBI see.
One thing is for sure. Most of the criticizers have tunnel vision is that they pick on one aspect of an action and forget everything else that affects that action.

I'm sure I can be forgiven if I think and say that most BBI'ers are without first hand knowledge of what really goes on and any speculation on the merits of ANY situation is given freely and if it's free it has no value.

So while I read all your mouthings, bad (Usually) and good I have to stand at a distance because it's really and truly with minor exceptions,,Pure Bullshit

Respectfully submitted.

Now defend the fact that it's bullshit ...Give out the sources and basis of your
pontifications.
Tell me you speak directly with the running back coach!!!

what Williams did since the end of last season, to turn this all around....

In comment 13044249 Doomster said:

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what Williams did since the end of last season, to turn this all around....

I'm not sure, but I'll bet that rice pudding was involved.

In comment 13044246 optimist said:

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First, a running back and his OL have to be in sync. second running by committee made EVERYONE look bad Third, his history shows he can perform. It's my belief that MacAdoo sees the same things and certainly a lot more than the "experts" here on BBI see. One thing is for sure. Most of the criticizers have tunnel vision is that they pick on one aspect of an action and forget everything else that affects that action. I'm sure I can be forgiven if I think and say that most BBI'ers are without first hand knowledge of what really goes on and any speculation on the merits of ANY situation is given freely and if it's free it has no value. So while I read all your mouthings, bad (Usually) and good I have to stand at a distance because it's really and truly with minor exceptions,,Pure Bullshit Respectfully submitted. Now defend the fact that it's bullshit ...Give out the sources and basis of your pontifications. Tell me you speak directly with the running back coach!!!

Optimist, I too am an optimist but A. Williams NFL history shows he isn't up to snuff necessarily. College, he's a bull who blows by people when the holes are there. I do believe he'll be used more effectively as the coaches now likely realize he operates better with a blocking FB.

With the OL, TE and FB blocking likely all improving, he'll have a better year but I am not sure yet if he is a bonafide NFL starting type guy. His 2.8ypc from last year still makes me shudder even if our blocking wasn't all that. Hopeful, but not sold on his history to date.

has it somewhere, as his college stats attest. Just has not come out in his NFL play so far. I've been hoping he would model Brandon Jacobs somewhat with his toughness and durability, and provide some depth. Last season was regressive, but there is no reason to anticipate that his progress, though uneven at best, will now be arrested completely. Let's watch training camp and see.

In comment 13043786 mdc1 said:

Quote:

showed nothing, time to move on.

LOL.. I'm not much a fan of Williams thus far but posts like these always make me chuckle.

In comment 13044292 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 13043786 mdc1 said: Quote: showed nothing, time to move on. LOL.. I'm not much a fan of Williams thus far but posts like these always make me chuckle.

What do you expect from the same guy who said OBJ won't be good until he leads the Giants to a championship?

In comment 13044288 oldog said:

Quote:

has it somewhere, as his college stats attest. Just has not come out in his NFL play so far. I've been hoping he would model Brandon Jacobs somewhat with his toughness and durability, and provide some depth. Last season was regressive, but there is no reason to anticipate that his progress, though uneven at best, will now be arrested completely. Let's watch training camp and see.

I believe he has to show well this camp to be guaranteed a spot. McAdoo is a new head coach and I don't think he'll be as tied to guys that were drafted as TC may have been. He will want to put his own stamp on the team.

If RB O. Dwarka looks great in camp and A. Williams struggles, would anyone be shocked if A. Williams was cut? Not me.

is one of the least productive RBs in the history of the NFL.

It isn't easy to average under 3 ypc getting regular touches.

Again... 3.2.

He's been really, really bad.

and had high expectations for him entering last season based on the way he closed the 2014 season. However, the reality is that, right now, he is no better than the 4th best back on the team. Jennings is a proven commodity and while not an elite back, he is a steady NFL caliber RB. Vereen is a better all around RB with the opportunity to contribute more in his 3rd down role. Perkins is, right now, probably the most talented and most complete back on the roster. of course, he has to prove that. But, then again, Williams has a lot to prove to even make the squad at this point.

On what down and distance to go did Williams receive the vast majority of his carries (50/88), and what was his YPC over those attempts?

1st and 10; averaged 4.0 YPC.

Not great but decent when the D presumably could not assume run vs pass...

In comment 13044587 Matt M. said:

Quote:

and had high expectations for him entering last season based on the way he closed the 2014 season. However, the reality is that, right now, he is no better than the 4th best back on the team. Jennings is a proven commodity and while not an elite back, he is a steady NFL caliber RB. Vereen is a better all around RB with the opportunity to contribute more in his 3rd down role. Perkins is, right now, probably the most talented and most complete back on the roster. of course, he has to prove that. But, then again, Williams has a lot to prove to even make the squad at this point.

I really hope RB Perkins is our most talented back. He is fast and can catch based on scouting reports and we need that on the field. A guy who can run and catch. Can he pass protect? I don't think we'll know that until well into training camp.

As for A. Williams, as I noted previously, McAdoo may not stick with a guy he doesn't think is worth it regardless of draft position. I mean, if veteran Rainey looks better maybe he sticks???? Camp will prove out a lot of things and I look forward to it.

In comment 13044556 Mike in Long Beach said:

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Again... 3.2. He's been really, really bad.

That's some hard hitting analysis. Williams has struggled for a variety of reasons. He's also constantly put in predictable running sets and formations, and he was never an ideal fit for our run blocking scheme.

In comment 13044683 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 13044556 Mike in Long Beach said: Quote: Again... 3.2. He's been really, really bad. That's some hard hitting analysis. Williams has struggled for a variety of reasons. He's also constantly put in predictable running sets and formations, and he was never an ideal fit for our run blocking scheme.

There is some merit to this statement and assessment. But still 3.2 ypc? I do want to see how he does behind a true bonafide FB like Johnson and improved overall blocking at TE and the OL. If he doesn't blossom this year he likely never will.

Right now, nothing would shock me as far as who makes it and who doesn't at RB and for various reasons.

RB Jennings is in fact 31 years old now. Does he have anything left? I know we can assume he's kept himself in shape, never had major leg injuries, and has never had that back-to-back 300 carries type background where the body takes a true beating. He may in fact have another year left in his body. History is against him though.

RB Williams - lets see how he does with improved blocking. If he shows no shiftiness or not enough I wouldn't doubt he cut and a veteran like Rainey and/ or Dwarka kept.

The only true "locks" are Perkins and Vereen. I truly believe that.

that I have nothing against Williams. He's just a square peg trying to fit a round hole. He doesn't have much wiggle in is game. When taking on a defender he is more likely to drop his shoulder then try and juke the defender. He can't catch for crap out of the backfield. He can run over people but doesn't really attempt to make them miss. He's a power runner.

Williams needs a power running game. He needs an OL that will open holes for him. He needs an offense with a running game that will wear down a defense. That's not what the current Giants WCO is. He would have been a better fit under Gilbride back when the team had a better run blocking line. When I think of a RB in a WCO I think of a quick, shifty, out of the backfield receiver. That's not Williams.

Playing on the current Giants' is only hurting his chances to catch on elsewhere. He needs a run first type offense. A power run type offense. In a WCO he just doesn't fit. It does not play to his skillset and this includes 3rd and short. You put Williams in and you telegraph run and don't fear him when it's not a run. Vereen is the better option on 3rd and short for this offense. Williams really has no place on the Giants' offense. Doesn't mean he isn't good, just not on the right team for his skillset.

real power running teams in the NFL. If there are some, then I agree Williams would likely flourish in that setting.

In 2014 I was very impressed with some of his runs. Last year he couldn't get out of the backfield.

Now you can say this or that that Lacey dies better (aside from gaining yards), but basically he's an AW type plus hands to receive.