The guy has a brilliant defensive mind - comes from an impeccable coaching tree - has demonstrated past brilliance as a DC - and now has a candy jar with some players in it to help him.
like most coaches, Spags can be effective if the DL stays healthy and he's able to run his scheme.
And like most coaches, he will be ineffective if there are a lot of injuries and he has to try and cover them up by playing people out of position or will lack the depth needed to have a consistent pass rush.
He has minimal excuses this year, and in 2007 he had three beasts to unleash which was SO much fun to watch.
I've said in previous posts, I am optimistic this year more than in the past couple because we were horrific defensively last year and have no where to go this year but UP.
Offensively I think we will be extremely good.
Spags 2008 Giants Defense held opposing offenses to Â
Personality and "prickness" aside, I wish we could have gone after Schwartz, but perhaps McAdoo didn't want to upset whatever continuity we might have had, in this, his rookie campaign..
least of my worries with the additions we made in the off
season and the Draft all we need is to stay relatively
healthy and I think this defense has the potential to
lead the league in creating turnovers . Easily become a
top ten defense .
We can then compete with Seattle and Carolina two teams
i fear the most if we can get into the post season .
It's only the staring front four. OO and Bromley, the top two rotational DL, have a shitload to prove. I The DL is hardly "loaded" so far as depth in concerned.
Very, very few coaches do it without players and health.
Hopefully this year he gets the health. They have players who can get to the QB and stop the run. They will be so much more athletic up the middle w/o Unga, Dahl and Merriweather and with Collins at his natural position. They are faster in the secondary.
It is all about the pass rush
Yeah, I believe I'll wait and see how his defense does this year. Â
It may take them a little while to gel, but if they can stay relatively healthy they should do very well with Spags at the helm. If they crash and burn, it will be all on him.
Not sure how you can criticize Spags for last year Â
Good coaches can scheme around weakness. However, if you look at the Giant's defense last year, with injuries, and it's tough to conclude that any level of the defense - d-line, lbs, corners, safeties - was even average. Without at least one area of strength, you are just scheming weakness to weakness. This year, hopefully the d-line and corners are an area of strength and lbs and safeties are ascending. If so then you can really evaluate his work.
Defense that played with the heart of last year over a Perry Fewell defense. I always felt like last year we had guys near the guy with ball in his hand. It was certainly not pretty,
I think his scheme is better with the right players, which we went out and got. Should be a vast improvement this year.
All be it with next to zero talent to work with. With that said IMO this is a prove it or loss it year for him, and deservingly so. With McAdoo being moved up I believe the Mara’s had a big influence keeping him on to assist in the transition and both having some familiarity with one another.
He had zero chance with the talent last year but with the money spent and talent brought in he has to win at least for his sake. You cannot be fired from two coordinator positions and a HC position and expect another chance. I believe the D will be light years better than last year but that’s not saying a lot. The D needs to win a few games IMO and not loss any like last year for security.
He has tools this year unlike last and I believe he will use them well.
I Hope
I gave him a pass last year much like I gave Fewell one in 2012 and 2014 because the talent level was simply not sufficient to field a strong defense. Between injuries and what we went into the season with, no one was getting good play out of those units.
This year, I feel we have the personnel to field a quality defense so now the onus is on Spagnuolo to get them playing up to par. I think he will.
Not just bad, historically bad. With two different teams. And it's not like he's the first DC to work with less than ideal talent. Anybody can look good when coaching a team loaded with talent, but it's the guys who know how to work around meager talent and injuries who earn their paycheck. So, yeah, he has a lot to prove.
The 2008 defense was good but I think they also benefited from a dominant ball control offense that never turned it over.
They were better than the 2014 Cowboys defense but that defense benefited the same way and the offense made them look a bit better than they actually were.
If the NY Giants Offense is ranked between 5th and 8th this year
and the NY Giants Defense is ranked anywhere in the top 10 -- then the Giants are not only going to the playoffs -- they are going to make some noise in the playoffs
If the NY Giants Offense is ranked between 5th and 8th this year
and the NY Giants Defense is ranked anywhere in the top 10 -- then the Giants are not only going to the playoffs -- they are going to make some noise in the playoffs
depends on what teams they can beat. The big challenge with this team and also the record idea...is that for the last 4 seasons this team cannot beat any upper tier competition. You do not belong or succeed in the postseason unless you can do it. Will require a team effort and less talk and bravado. A quiet team that goes about their business of beating opponents on their schedule and improving will work wonders toward that goal, not talk...
Injuries late and Plax / Pierce's miscue with the gun cost the Giants the 2008 possible SB win. The first 12 or so games of 2008 the Giants were clearly the NFL's best team, no argument from anyone I'd think. But they unraveled with injuries. Losing Osi didn't help either.
Many wanted Coughlin to retire with Spags as HC when he went to the Rams. He was revered.
Can you blame us? When he went to the Rams he had been having a lot of success; That was before he strung together several mediocre seasons. He has a lot to prove at this point.
There are also many who refuse to place any blame on Spags. It has been 7 years of excuses.
We have gotten bludgeoned - bludgeoned - by almost every good team we've played the last 4 years. Look what MIN did to us last year. Lots to prove before we earn the right to be called contenders
show me. It's been almost 10 years since he's produced Â
agreed. Lou, legit depth in the cap era NFL is very infrequent, and giants in particular are still making up ground from multiple poor drafts.
Without a doubt, just about every team has depth issues in MULTIPLE spots. If you truly analyzed every NFC East team, you'd see all have issues and health is the key. Dallas went 12-4 in 2014 because they stayed extremely healthy overall. They sucked in 2015 because Romo, Bryant and Scandrick - all very key guys, were hurt.
So long as Eli, OBJ, Flowers, Pugh, Richburg stay healthy on offense (irreplaceable) and the DLine plus CB's stay healthy on defense we'll be OK. That is the core, base key list of guys that we just can't lose.
If Spagnuolo is brilliant (and I have no idea whether he is or not)... Â
...his brilliance seems to have gone unappreciated for a very long time. He languished as a position coach in the backwaters of northeastern college football for about fifteen years before getting his first shot in the NFL. Even after he had spent eight seasons in Philly with Reid and Johnson, I don't recall much buzz about him. Was anyone else pursuing him in 2007?
I think one thing is clear about Steve Spagnuolo: he can't transcend a lack of talent. If he doesn't have good players, his defense will be horrible. So in that context, the answer to the OP's question is "no". On the other hand, I have reasonable faith in Spagnuolo's ability to get good results from a good, healthy roster. I guess that's faint praise (I might have said the same of Perry Fewell), but maybe this year not screwing up will be good enough on defense.
RE: If Spagnuolo is brilliant (and I have no idea whether he is or not)... Â
...his brilliance seems to have gone unappreciated for a very long time. He languished as a position coach in the backwaters of northeastern college football for about fifteen years before getting his first shot in the NFL. Even after he had spent eight seasons in Philly with Reid and Johnson, I don't recall much buzz about him. Was anyone else pursuing him in 2007?
I think one thing is clear about Steve Spagnuolo: he can't transcend a lack of talent. If he doesn't have good players, his defense will be horrible. So in that context, the answer to the OP's question is "no". On the other hand, I have reasonable faith in Spagnuolo's ability to get good results from a good, healthy roster. I guess that's faint praise (I might have said the same of Perry Fewell), but maybe this year not screwing up will be good enough on defense.
Iirc, the Vikes
I think its pretty sad and telling that people have to go back almost Â
10 years to support his defensive coaching abilities. For the past 9 years his defenses have not just been bad, they have set historically bad records. I am rooting for him. He really has no excuses this year. We have basically 7 or 8 new starters (counting getting Hankins, JPP, and Kennard back from the beginning).
Lets see what he does. I am rooting for him but I would go so far as to say I believe in him.
RE: I think its pretty sad and telling that people have to go back almost Â
10 years to support his defensive coaching abilities. For the past 9 years his defenses have not just been bad, they have set historically bad records. I am rooting for him. He really has no excuses this year. We have basically 7 or 8 new starters (counting getting Hankins, JPP, and Kennard back from the beginning).
Lets see what he does. I am rooting for him but I would go so far as to say I believe in him.
As I look at Spags, he is a simple read: when the team has talent he excels and when it doesn't he sucks
The historically bad NY Giants of 2015 had limited talent and many injuries (Hankins, OWA, Ayers, Prince, Behre, Jackson, JT Thomas, Beason, JPP, etc.) as well as age with DT Jenkins, S Meriweather.
This year Spags has no excuses. This assumes we stay relatively healthy, of course. Spags also really need for Apple, Goodson, Thompson to develop and make an impact as the season moves along. I really like all three to be factors by season's end when we make our playoff run.
Finally, the youth (year 1, 2 and 3) have to develop. We can't have "scholarship" backups, guys who are on the team because they are bodies and we need them and have no options. That would suck. So DT Bromley, DE OWA, DE Wynn (improved or not?), S Behre, S Collins, S Jackson must all iprove and show they belong in the NFL as starter capable.
like most coaches, Spags can be effective if the DL stays healthy and he's able to run his scheme.
And like most coaches, he will be ineffective if there are a lot of injuries and he has to try and cover them up by playing people out of position or will lack the depth needed to have a consistent pass rush.
Even after he had spent eight seasons in Philly with Reid and Johnson, I don't recall much buzz about him. Was anyone else pursuing him in 2007?
Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Iirc, the Vikes
Childress inquired about Spagnuolo in 2006, but the Eagles said no and the Vikes hired Tomlin. In 2007, Coughlin hired Spagnuolo before Minnesota could pursue him as a replacement for Tomlin, who landed the Pittsburgh job the same day. Timing aside, though, you're right: there was some interest elsewhere.
That said, Minnesota's interest doesn't say much about Spagnuolo's League-wide reputation. He and Childress had worked together under Reid the previous seven years. It does confirm that he was well-regarded on the Philly staff, which is worth something. BTW, that's why Spags wasn't allowed to interview in 2006, when it looked as though Johnson might leave and a replacement could be needed.
It was also the Rams and the Saints (who I believe were the worst defense ever). Now I know people will say all three teams stunk, which may be true, however when does a string of failures stop being blips and start being a trend? Would a top DC, for example Dick LeBeau or Wade Phillips, had done as poorly? I could suggest that these teams would not have been anywhere near as poor.
Time will tell. However if he fails here this year, then I will consider this a trend on his career, not a blip.
No, don't believe in Spags or the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. Â
Just a few pieces in the candy jar should be enough. Barring more catastrophic injuries, I have no doubts that our D will not disappoint us this season.
He's like most NFL coordinators not named Belichick, he can do it with the right cast and do it well. Belichick is like McGyver, he just needs some gum, bird shit and a foil wrapper and he can make a defense go, whereas Spags is a mad scientist who NEEDS all of his inventions at his disposal or he will just blow up the lab.
Less than ideal talent? Those teams were epically bad. I don't see any coach overcoming last year's line up
I honestly believe that if JPP, Prince, Hankins and projected starting safety Jackson had stayed healthy last year we'd have made the playoffs. Prince was solid before his injury but sucked after he came back. We had no pass rush and a healthy JPP would have made a difference, same with Hankins who feeds off JPP. And Jackson had speed at least and flashed. Spags never had a chance last year: the talent was horrible.
Actually, the performances of Spags' STL defenses is very similar Â
to LeBeau's Bengal defenses. Both were terrible the first year, much better in the second year, and terrible again in the third year.
The only really good defenses I've seen the Giants field since John Fox left were run by Spagnuolo in the second half of 2007 through 2008. They had some very good players, but lets not pretend that they had some overwhelming talent either.
Less than ideal talent? Those teams were epically bad. I don't see any coach overcoming last year's line up
Yes they were epically bad. And that doesn't happen unless the coaching is part of the problem. It's one thing to be unable to overcome weak talent and injuries, it's another thing when you finish with the worst defense (2012 Saints) and the 4th worst defense (2015 Giants) in the history of the NFL. Fool me once, shame on talent; fool me twice, shame on coaching. November article on how bad defense was.... - ( New Window )
That year, the Giants started the first half of the season playing against literally all of the worst offensives in the league. Ranks of those teams scoring off were 28th, 30th, 32nd, 25th, 31st, 22nd, 20th, 18th.
They played better offensives the second part of the year and the defense did not perform as well, allowing 21 points per game over that stretch.
You can rob a lot of people with an empty gun. And a good poker player doesn't always need the best cards in order to win a hand. Nobody thinks Spags should've turned in a top ten defense with that talent, but is it asking too much not to have the 4th worst D in the history of the NFL?
He's had some historically bad failures as a coordinator. Â
I'm not one who thinks his work in '07 is representative of his career. As great a job as he did that year, it doesn't change the fact that this it was an outlier.
I'm very concerned about Spags, but of course, I hope I'm wrong.
RE: He's had some historically bad failures as a coordinator. Â
I'm not one who thinks his work in '07 is representative of his career. As great a job as he did that year, it doesn't change the fact that this it was an outlier.
I'm very concerned about Spags, but of course, I hope I'm wrong.
You can rob a lot of people with an empty gun. And a good poker player doesn't always need the best cards in order to win a hand. Nobody thinks Spags should've turned in a top ten defense with that talent, but is it asking too much not to have the 4th worst D in the history of the NFL?
Exactly Milton. No reasonable person expected a top 10 Defense last year or in 2014. Just a competent unit. I think if a guy is a great DC he should at least be able to produce something ranked hi teens to low 20s.
He's like most NFL coordinators not named Belichick, he can do it with the right cast and do it well. Belichick is like McGyver, he just needs some gum, bird shit and a foil wrapper and he can make a defense go, whereas Spags is a mad scientist who NEEDS all of his inventions at his disposal or he will just blow up the lab.
Given that the NFL is a copycat league, what is Belichick doing that is so difficult (or impossible) to copy? You'd think that his incredible success would spawn an entire generation of great defensive minds (maybe like Paul Brown or Bill Walsh). But that doesn't seem to be happening.
Personally I would have preferred to see some new blood brought in Â
It seems like an odd setup to hire a head coach and retain the DC that was there before him. I can understand doing that if the DC is exceptional, but coming off a year like last year...
Spags seems to have a weakness in that the defense is especially vulnerable to unforseen changes in personnel. In a league where injuries are an enormous issue that is a problem.
In a league characterized by injuries, personnel turnover, and reduced practice time it seems that simplification is the better route to success.
depends on what teams they can beat. The big challenge with this team and also the record idea...is that for the last 4 seasons this team cannot beat any upper tier competition.
Although they couldn't close the door, the shitty 2015 Giants came damn near beating the Panthers and Patriots. A play here and there with this better team should make that difference.
He has the talent here to produce another SB winner.
Last year was just a TOTAL team(players, coaches, FO) fail, that still gave 6 wins and a chance at at least 4 more.
Your second post explains your first. What makes Belichick great is his flexibility. He adapts his schemes to the players he has better than anyone I've ever seen. So many coordinators are married to their scheme. Belichick isn't. He puts players in position to succeed by find ways to maximize what they can do and minimize what they can't do.
due to injuries and poor drafts, I'm not sure anyone could have fielded a better D last year with no pass rush and basically shit players as the defensive backfield.
Both pass rush and decent backfield is the only way to slow down a pass happy offense. No scheme in the world can do it with poor players.
RE: Personally I would have preferred to see some new blood brought in Â
It seems like an odd setup to hire a head coach and retain the DC that was there before him. I can understand doing that if the DC is exceptional, but coming off a year like last year.
I think they wanted to maintain some continuity, especially with all the new faces they were planning on. Bringing in a new system was one less thing to overcome. In fact, I would characterize the off-season's theme as "change with continuity" (they got rid of the head coach and half the position coaches, but kept the offensive and defensive systems).
Erring on the side of continuity is what kept Coughlin in charge following disappointing seasons in 2006 and 2010 and the results were Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011.
Your second post explains your first. What makes Belichick great is his flexibility. He adapts his schemes to the players he has better than anyone I've ever seen. So many coordinators are married to their scheme. Belichick isn't. He puts players in position to succeed by find ways to maximize what they can do and minimize what they can't do.
Belichick once said he doesn't look at it as 11 positions but 11 jobs (or words to that effect). I took it to mean that players have a role to play and that role isn't always determined by their position.
RE: RE: Personally I would have preferred to see some new blood brought in Â
It seems like an odd setup to hire a head coach and retain the DC that was there before him. I can understand doing that if the DC is exceptional, but coming off a year like last year.
I think they wanted to maintain some continuity, especially with all the new faces they were planning on. Bringing in a new system was one less thing to overcome. In fact, I would characterize the off-season's theme as "change with continuity" (they got rid of the head coach and half the position coaches, but kept the offensive and defensive systems).
Erring on the side of continuity is what kept Coughlin in charge following disappointing seasons in 2006 and 2010 and the results were Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011.
Continuity, 3rd year offense, 2nd year defense, starting DLine, Eli, OBJ and improved blocking all have me thinking "2007, lets do it again".
I believe continuity is big in the NFL as you have 11 guys on each side of the ball plus specials teams all having to work together and be in sync. Mental errors kill you in the NFL. I think our defense will make mistakes early as we have a lot of new faces and a lot of guys coming back from injury BUT because our offense should be solid, in sync and IMHO improved we should outscore our first three opponents and start 3-0. The schedule is harder after that so we need to start off well, stay healthy and hope this defense becomes as good as I think it can be.
I think our run defense could finish in the top quarter of the league. The DLine is all above average against the run as are LB Kennard and S Collins. And our DE's should get to the QB much more than last year and the pressure means turnovers. If a team can't run, well, they should be in 3rd and "longer" and that is a good thing.
Spags, on paper, has the pieces he needs now and I think it will come through. He just also needs CB Apple, S D. Thompson and LB Goodson to all develop THIS YEAR and become solid players who can be relied on later in the year when they know what they are doing.
Think he has learned a lot over the last 5 years,and given the personnel will be great. Just wonder if he still wants to be a HC ? As a defensive guy only, he has all the tools to be special.
He's aggressive and willing to take risks when he has the talent to do so. Defensive players respond to this, and respond to him. With above average talent he can overachieve, but with average or poor talent, he (and most coaches) are limited.
I have said this before about Spag's but it bears repeating: Â
that 2008 team that Spags coached into a top 5 defense or so was anything but loaded. You kid yourself if you think otherwise.
The team had 2 defensive stars: All Pro and pro bowler Justin Tuck and CB Corey Webster, who never made a pro bowl once in his career, probably unfairly. Kiwi played well at the other DE and Tollefson was a respectable rotational guy. The starting DTs were s very good duo of Robbins and Cofield but their primary backup, Jay Alford, had an entirely forgettable sophomore season.
Part time starters KP and TT were emerging players and Ross serviceable at best as the starting corner opposite Webster. The LBs - Pierce, Danny Clark, and whomever (Kehl actually started a couple!) we're utter garbage. Pierce had fallen off a cliff from his 2007 season and had a beer belly. Some leadership right there! Clark, I think they unearthed him from the grave, had been a TC guy for the Jags but was worse than a JAG.
They were aided a TON by the Giants' dominatat rushing attack that year. But Spags milked that D for all it was worth and then some. Re the point that their stats were much better the 1st half of the season and faded the second half because of the level of opponents - good analysis - they also faded because of injuries to Cofield and Robbins who were shells of themselves after their injuries.
That was not in the least a "loaded" defense by the end of the year post injuries to those two. Spags was masterful that year IMO.
He's got way, way more talent this year among his starting DL, his starting secondary (if Thompson pans out), and believe it or not, also at LB. With injury luck his D this year should be a top 5 unit if the Giants have an average rushing attack that can eat some clock.
RE: I have said this before about Spag's but it bears repeating: Â
that 2008 team that Spags coached into a top 5 defense or so was anything but loaded. You kid yourself if you think otherwise.
The team had 2 defensive stars: All Pro and pro bowler Justin Tuck and CB Corey Webster, who never made a pro bowl once in his career, probably unfairly. Kiwi played well at the other DE and Tollefson was a respectable rotational guy. The starting DTs were s very good duo of Robbins and Cofield but their primary backup, Jay Alford, had an entirely forgettable sophomore season.
Part time starters KP and TT were emerging players and Ross serviceable at best as the starting corner opposite Webster. The LBs - Pierce, Danny Clark, and whomever (Kehl actually started a couple!) we're utter garbage. Pierce had fallen off a cliff from his 2007 season and had a beer belly. Some leadership right there! Clark, I think they unearthed him from the grave, had been a TC guy for the Jags but was worse than a JAG.
They were aided a TON by the Giants' dominatat rushing attack that year. But Spags milked that D for all it was worth and then some. Re the point that their stats were much better the 1st half of the season and faded the second half because of the level of opponents - good analysis - they also faded because of injuries to Cofield and Robbins who were shells of themselves after their injuries.
That was not in the least a "loaded" defense by the end of the year post injuries to those two. Spags was masterful that year IMO.
He's got way, way more talent this year among his starting DL, his starting secondary (if Thompson pans out), and believe it or not, also at LB. With injury luck his D this year should be a top 5 unit if the Giants have an average rushing attack that can eat some clock.
Intersting and good points. losing Osi in pre-season hurt a lot too. The injuries to Cofield and Robbins are what really killed this team down the stretch along with Plax's bozo gunfire.
As others have said, outside of a year or two in NY, his career is meh or worse. My recollection is that when the Giants hired him, the overall sentiment was 'why? what has he done? why did it take him so long to get to DC?'. then he had a couple of good years with NY and absolutely bombed ever since. He inherited shit last year, and did shit with it. Now he's being handed a lot of pieces to a puzzle. If he can't assemble the puzzle, a lot of that is on him.
but, to answer the OP question, I'm on the fence. Not a good bet to place in either direction.
Is an average to above average coordinator. He's not a Lebeau or a wade Phillips but he's not a train wreck like Sheridan or Lynn.
I'd agree with that assessment. He has been a HC and DC and that is a good thing with McAdoo being so young. They can really help each other if they can truly get along and work together.
As for the New Orleans fiasco what had any other DC done with Â
JonC -- come on -- the team of 2008 was a dominant team until the last part of the season
And like most coaches, he will be ineffective if there are a lot of injuries and he has to try and cover them up by playing people out of position or will lack the depth needed to have a consistent pass rush.
If 2007 was a blip then what was 2008 when his defense played better with no Strahan?
I've said in previous posts, I am optimistic this year more than in the past couple because we were horrific defensively last year and have no where to go this year but UP.
Offensively I think we will be extremely good.
correction 18 points per game
sorry 42 sacks and 17 interceptions
I'm having calculator problems
season and the Draft all we need is to stay relatively
healthy and I think this defense has the potential to
lead the league in creating turnovers . Easily become a
top ten defense .
We can then compete with Seattle and Carolina two teams
i fear the most if we can get into the post season .
Agree the starters look great, but depth?
Hopefully this year he gets the health. They have players who can get to the QB and stop the run. They will be so much more athletic up the middle w/o Unga, Dahl and Merriweather and with Collins at his natural position. They are faster in the secondary.
It is all about the pass rush
I think his scheme is better with the right players, which we went out and got. Should be a vast improvement this year.
He had zero chance with the talent last year but with the money spent and talent brought in he has to win at least for his sake. You cannot be fired from two coordinator positions and a HC position and expect another chance. I believe the D will be light years better than last year but that’s not saying a lot. The D needs to win a few games IMO and not loss any like last year for security.
He has tools this year unlike last and I believe he will use them well.
I Hope
This year, I feel we have the personnel to field a quality defense so now the onus is on Spagnuolo to get them playing up to par. I think he will.
They were better than the 2014 Cowboys defense but that defense benefited the same way and the offense made them look a bit better than they actually were.
Link - ( New Window )
If the NY Giants Offense is ranked between 5th and 8th this year
and the NY Giants Defense is ranked anywhere in the top 10 -- then the Giants are not only going to the playoffs -- they are going to make some noise in the playoffs
If the NY Giants Offense is ranked between 5th and 8th this year
and the NY Giants Defense is ranked anywhere in the top 10 -- then the Giants are not only going to the playoffs -- they are going to make some noise in the playoffs
depends on what teams they can beat. The big challenge with this team and also the record idea...is that for the last 4 seasons this team cannot beat any upper tier competition. You do not belong or succeed in the postseason unless you can do it. Will require a team effort and less talk and bravado. A quiet team that goes about their business of beating opponents on their schedule and improving will work wonders toward that goal, not talk...
Can you blame us? When he went to the Rams he had been having a lot of success; That was before he strung together several mediocre seasons. He has a lot to prove at this point.
There are also many who refuse to place any blame on Spags. It has been 7 years of excuses.
Do you believe this is one of the creepiest videos ever made?
So long as Eli, OBJ, Flowers, Pugh, Richburg stay healthy on offense (irreplaceable) and the DLine plus CB's stay healthy on defense we'll be OK. That is the core, base key list of guys that we just can't lose.
I think one thing is clear about Steve Spagnuolo: he can't transcend a lack of talent. If he doesn't have good players, his defense will be horrible. So in that context, the answer to the OP's question is "no". On the other hand, I have reasonable faith in Spagnuolo's ability to get good results from a good, healthy roster. I guess that's faint praise (I might have said the same of Perry Fewell), but maybe this year not screwing up will be good enough on defense.
I think one thing is clear about Steve Spagnuolo: he can't transcend a lack of talent. If he doesn't have good players, his defense will be horrible. So in that context, the answer to the OP's question is "no". On the other hand, I have reasonable faith in Spagnuolo's ability to get good results from a good, healthy roster. I guess that's faint praise (I might have said the same of Perry Fewell), but maybe this year not screwing up will be good enough on defense.
Iirc, the Vikes
Lets see what he does. I am rooting for him but I would go so far as to say I believe in him.
Lets see what he does. I am rooting for him but I would go so far as to say I believe in him.
The historically bad NY Giants of 2015 had limited talent and many injuries (Hankins, OWA, Ayers, Prince, Behre, Jackson, JT Thomas, Beason, JPP, etc.) as well as age with DT Jenkins, S Meriweather.
This year Spags has no excuses. This assumes we stay relatively healthy, of course. Spags also really need for Apple, Goodson, Thompson to develop and make an impact as the season moves along. I really like all three to be factors by season's end when we make our playoff run.
Finally, the youth (year 1, 2 and 3) have to develop. We can't have "scholarship" backups, guys who are on the team because they are bodies and we need them and have no options. That would suck. So DT Bromley, DE OWA, DE Wynn (improved or not?), S Behre, S Collins, S Jackson must all iprove and show they belong in the NFL as starter capable.
And like most coaches, he will be ineffective if there are a lot of injuries and he has to try and cover them up by playing people out of position or will lack the depth needed to have a consistent pass rush.
well said sir
Big Blue '56 said:
Childress inquired about Spagnuolo in 2006, but the Eagles said no and the Vikes hired Tomlin. In 2007, Coughlin hired Spagnuolo before Minnesota could pursue him as a replacement for Tomlin, who landed the Pittsburgh job the same day. Timing aside, though, you're right: there was some interest elsewhere.
That said, Minnesota's interest doesn't say much about Spagnuolo's League-wide reputation. He and Childress had worked together under Reid the previous seven years. It does confirm that he was well-regarded on the Philly staff, which is worth something. BTW, that's why Spags wasn't allowed to interview in 2006, when it looked as though Johnson might leave and a replacement could be needed.
Time will tell. However if he fails here this year, then I will consider this a trend on his career, not a blip.
The only really good defenses I've seen the Giants field since John Fox left were run by Spagnuolo in the second half of 2007 through 2008. They had some very good players, but lets not pretend that they had some overwhelming talent either.
November article on how bad defense was.... - ( New Window )
They played better offensives the second part of the year and the defense did not perform as well, allowing 21 points per game over that stretch.
I'm very concerned about Spags, but of course, I hope I'm wrong.
I'm very concerned about Spags, but of course, I hope I'm wrong.
Spot on Mike. Agree completely.
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Is like a gun with no bullets.
You can rob a lot of people with an empty gun. And a good poker player doesn't always need the best cards in order to win a hand. Nobody thinks Spags should've turned in a top ten defense with that talent, but is it asking too much not to have the 4th worst D in the history of the NFL?
Exactly Milton. No reasonable person expected a top 10 Defense last year or in 2014. Just a competent unit. I think if a guy is a great DC he should at least be able to produce something ranked hi teens to low 20s.
Given that the NFL is a copycat league, what is Belichick doing that is so difficult (or impossible) to copy? You'd think that his incredible success would spawn an entire generation of great defensive minds (maybe like Paul Brown or Bill Walsh). But that doesn't seem to be happening.
Spags seems to have a weakness in that the defense is especially vulnerable to unforseen changes in personnel. In a league where injuries are an enormous issue that is a problem.
In a league characterized by injuries, personnel turnover, and reduced practice time it seems that simplification is the better route to success.
depends on what teams they can beat. The big challenge with this team and also the record idea...is that for the last 4 seasons this team cannot beat any upper tier competition.
Although they couldn't close the door, the shitty 2015 Giants came damn near beating the Panthers and Patriots. A play here and there with this better team should make that difference.
Last year was just a TOTAL team(players, coaches, FO) fail, that still gave 6 wins and a chance at at least 4 more.
As a matter of fact, many here mocked people calling for Fewell to be fired and replaced with Spags.
Both pass rush and decent backfield is the only way to slow down a pass happy offense. No scheme in the world can do it with poor players.
Erring on the side of continuity is what kept Coughlin in charge following disappointing seasons in 2006 and 2010 and the results were Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011.
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It seems like an odd setup to hire a head coach and retain the DC that was there before him. I can understand doing that if the DC is exceptional, but coming off a year like last year.
I think they wanted to maintain some continuity, especially with all the new faces they were planning on. Bringing in a new system was one less thing to overcome. In fact, I would characterize the off-season's theme as "change with continuity" (they got rid of the head coach and half the position coaches, but kept the offensive and defensive systems).
Erring on the side of continuity is what kept Coughlin in charge following disappointing seasons in 2006 and 2010 and the results were Super Bowls in 2007 and 2011.
I believe continuity is big in the NFL as you have 11 guys on each side of the ball plus specials teams all having to work together and be in sync. Mental errors kill you in the NFL. I think our defense will make mistakes early as we have a lot of new faces and a lot of guys coming back from injury BUT because our offense should be solid, in sync and IMHO improved we should outscore our first three opponents and start 3-0. The schedule is harder after that so we need to start off well, stay healthy and hope this defense becomes as good as I think it can be.
I think our run defense could finish in the top quarter of the league. The DLine is all above average against the run as are LB Kennard and S Collins. And our DE's should get to the QB much more than last year and the pressure means turnovers. If a team can't run, well, they should be in 3rd and "longer" and that is a good thing.
Spags, on paper, has the pieces he needs now and I think it will come through. He just also needs CB Apple, S D. Thompson and LB Goodson to all develop THIS YEAR and become solid players who can be relied on later in the year when they know what they are doing.
The team had 2 defensive stars: All Pro and pro bowler Justin Tuck and CB Corey Webster, who never made a pro bowl once in his career, probably unfairly. Kiwi played well at the other DE and Tollefson was a respectable rotational guy. The starting DTs were s very good duo of Robbins and Cofield but their primary backup, Jay Alford, had an entirely forgettable sophomore season.
Part time starters KP and TT were emerging players and Ross serviceable at best as the starting corner opposite Webster. The LBs - Pierce, Danny Clark, and whomever (Kehl actually started a couple!) we're utter garbage. Pierce had fallen off a cliff from his 2007 season and had a beer belly. Some leadership right there! Clark, I think they unearthed him from the grave, had been a TC guy for the Jags but was worse than a JAG.
They were aided a TON by the Giants' dominatat rushing attack that year. But Spags milked that D for all it was worth and then some. Re the point that their stats were much better the 1st half of the season and faded the second half because of the level of opponents - good analysis - they also faded because of injuries to Cofield and Robbins who were shells of themselves after their injuries.
That was not in the least a "loaded" defense by the end of the year post injuries to those two. Spags was masterful that year IMO.
He's got way, way more talent this year among his starting DL, his starting secondary (if Thompson pans out), and believe it or not, also at LB. With injury luck his D this year should be a top 5 unit if the Giants have an average rushing attack that can eat some clock.
The team had 2 defensive stars: All Pro and pro bowler Justin Tuck and CB Corey Webster, who never made a pro bowl once in his career, probably unfairly. Kiwi played well at the other DE and Tollefson was a respectable rotational guy. The starting DTs were s very good duo of Robbins and Cofield but their primary backup, Jay Alford, had an entirely forgettable sophomore season.
Part time starters KP and TT were emerging players and Ross serviceable at best as the starting corner opposite Webster. The LBs - Pierce, Danny Clark, and whomever (Kehl actually started a couple!) we're utter garbage. Pierce had fallen off a cliff from his 2007 season and had a beer belly. Some leadership right there! Clark, I think they unearthed him from the grave, had been a TC guy for the Jags but was worse than a JAG.
They were aided a TON by the Giants' dominatat rushing attack that year. But Spags milked that D for all it was worth and then some. Re the point that their stats were much better the 1st half of the season and faded the second half because of the level of opponents - good analysis - they also faded because of injuries to Cofield and Robbins who were shells of themselves after their injuries.
That was not in the least a "loaded" defense by the end of the year post injuries to those two. Spags was masterful that year IMO.
He's got way, way more talent this year among his starting DL, his starting secondary (if Thompson pans out), and believe it or not, also at LB. With injury luck his D this year should be a top 5 unit if the Giants have an average rushing attack that can eat some clock.
but, to answer the OP question, I'm on the fence. Not a good bet to place in either direction.
So maybe it wasnt Spags's fault??
My HS coach used to say about us after mistakes in practice, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken....
feathers!