Beckham showed immaturity. And it has continued with GQ. This will HURT him to one degree or another, maybe even with marketing himself.
I take into account the fact that he is young, he has a spotlight on him and he is also a fierce competitor. But calling your team out when they are down 35-7 vs Carolina and saying they lost interest by talking about "what are we doing after the game?" was a bad idea and raised eyebrows I'm sure.
If I am Odell, I keep my mouth shut and just play this year. Period end of story.
Who is remembered more fondly, Jerry Rice or Randy Moss?
Yes I believe in the responsibility of a Pro Athlete, a role model, etc to be better than that. We expect it from our military, our policemen/policewomen, etc and they don't have the fame or the money that pro athletes do.
It may just be his kryptonite. Norman can't compete with him physically so he got in his head. It's sad that is part of the game but it is. It could very well be the one thing that stops him from being the best ever. Can OBJ mature out of it?
All that being said there is no reason he can't fix this. It can very easily be looked back on as immaturity. OBJ vs Norman twice a year will be interesting to watch and will hopefully do great things for both of their career. If OBJ can fix that part of his game, which I believe is his biggest hurdle, he could be the best ever and Norman would end up an afterthought.
I respected Rice, but felt like Moss was a more physically gifted player.
Rather face Rice than Moss in their primes.
Point?
Sorry I'm late responding. I totally agree with your opinion on Rice and Moss. That is exactly my point and I guess I didn't make it clear. Who is most commonly regarded as the best WR ever? Hell some would claim Rice to be one of the best players ever. Yet Moss, in my opinion and yours, had more talent. So what's the difference between the two?
If you had to guess right now, outside of an injury, what would be the one thing that could hold Beckham back from being the best ever? It's not talent as his first 2 years have been incredible. I suppose he could retire too early but I doubt that. OBJ needs to decide if he wants to be the greatest ever and supplant Jerry Rice or be the next Terrel Owens, Ocho Cinco, or at best Randy Moss.
I would take one Jerry Rice over two of Randy Moss
Moss had near super human qualities, but he couldn't be counted on to always deliver a good effort. I've brought this up before; I saw Moss play for the 49ers in person at Super Bowl 47. Obviously he was well past his prime, but I was hoping that in his first Super Bowl (and in what turned out to be the last game of his career) he would dig deep. Instead he gave an absolutely pathetic effort. Didn't block, didn't come back to the QB on broken plays, didn't go for the ball over the middle that resulted in the Ed Reed pick. Just a complete dog.
Contrast that with Anquan Boldin in that same game. Boldin was three years younger than Moss but with much more wear and tear, and a fraction of the talent. Boldin played that game like his life depended on it. A man possessed.
Or contrast it with Jerry Rice himself. At age 40 he had 92 catches for the Raiders, and in the Super Bowl played a huge game against a brutal Tampa defense.
Talent is only part of it. Gotta have heart and brains.
Carolina game and IMHO the ref's for some reason were allowing Norman to get away with murder wrt Odell. There were many things that they didn't and couldn't show on TV that the Ref's in one instance I know were looking right at. Norman and the rest of the Carolina Secondary would always seem to do it when they had Beckham isolated buy their bench. I wasn't pleased at all that Odell fell for that BS but I completely understood why.
Recently I noticed that they have first been playing up Beckham then Norman which I assume is their trying to set up some kind of rivalry; IMHO they better review the tapes that I'm sure they have lying around in some closet and see if Norman is really the type of guy that the league wants to hang its hat on.
I'm not the one who needs him to be nice. You're the one admitting you hold him to a double standard.
So he's an asshole. So what? I don't feel the need to make a case otherwise and I'm certainly not calling for the Giants to get rid of him because of it.
I don't give a shit what people that I don't know say about how he is off the field. Keep catching touchdowns and don't get suspended.
I'm fine rooting for an asshole. The guy is an incredible football player. Just don't tell me what a nice guy he is when the image he puts out to the world on Sunday is that of a huge asshole. I don't need the reassurance that he is something other than what he is showing me.
The disagreement here is that you're calling a guy an asshole because of the way he plays football. I've seen and read enough about what he does off the field to hold what I feel is an informed enough opinion that he is not at all an "asshole". Just because he plays with a flair and is a mega intense dude or celebrates after a big play doesn't make him an asshole in my book. Is he Barry Sanders? No, and he doesn't need to be. He's Odell Beckham. I think he acted like a shitty dude on 12/20/15. I also think that was an outlier.
You've already admitted that you know nothing about what he does off the field and don't care to and that's fine. I don't exactly follow his off field life daily but I do know enough to say that he's not a bad kid by any means.
You know who's an asshole? Greg Hardy is an asshole. Ray Rice is an asshole. Guys like that are who I have a problem with. Not guys who go all out on the field and don't do anything wrong off of it.
Like I said. If Beckham was on another team, I'd say the same things I say about someone like DeSean Jackson. I hate the guy, think he's annoying to play against and want to see him get leveled every time he has the football. I'd still respect the talent (even though Beckham is quite a bit better than Jackson). It's just being a fan. So, no.. all of this "if Beckham were an Eagle..." and complaining about a double standard is really just a waste of time.
That's reserved for woman beaters, drug abusers, and drunk drivers.
Let's try to stay in the realm of the reasonable. He likes to dance after touchdowns. That goes back to Billy White Shoes Johnson like half a century ago.
What is it that he does that you think is showing people up? The celebrating? There's just so much of that in this league now that I can't even get bugged about it. The only time celebrating really, really bothers me is when a guy like DaMontre Moore would celebrate a sack in a game we were losing by 3 scores. Or when Santonio Holmes used to catch a 4 yard pass for a 1st down and do the point and drop the ball thing. Shit like that is silly but after a big play or a TD none of it really annoys me.
I also don't think Odell is as hated as you might think. I'm sure guys in this league want to lay him out but there are also times during most games where a defender will take him down and he'll get up and give them a quick pat on the helmet and say "hey, nice play". I think there's still a degree of respect. I'd rather more of that and less of the celebrating but it's just who he is.. I don't think any less of him for it.
Is Dikembe Mutombo an asshole for doing the finger wag?
and that the stuff that's said between them is probably a lot worse than someone wagging a finger, dancing, or high-stepping, right? Your posts reeks of sanctimonious paternalism.
these athletes have thick enough skin not to get hot and bothered about someone celebrating. Don't like Mutombo finger wagging after a block? Dunk on his ass. Don't like Odell dancing? Keep him out of the endzone.
Well there are always going to be plenty of ways to justify acting like an ass. There seem to have been hundreds and thousands of athletes that somehow managed to be motivated without acting like morons.
But there's no doubt a lot of people seem to think it's pretty cool. You've got me there.
Difference opinions is good. Some people will call people assholes for their actions on the field irrespective of their life off of it. Some think that's a bit far. Ah well...not even worth arguing about.
Through your lens, having a bit of fun on the field
I will say that no matter how nice you are in real life, how you treat people on BBI truly makes you an asshole in life. And for that reason, I think we can all agree that Brett is an asshole.
RE: Through your lens, having a bit of fun on the field
equates to acting like an ass. Any form of expression is acting like an ass.
You don't seem to be able to distinguish between celebrating an accomplishment and disrespecting an opponent.
And if Beckham wants to keep showing people up, fine. I'm not calling for him to be benched or traded. He doesn't owe me anything. If he wants to, in my opinion, look like a god damn fool every time he scores a TD that's his prerogative. And it's my prerogative to think he's an asshole.
I don't care. I just take it with a huge mountain of salt when anyone tells me he's a good mood when they're saying it basically just because of the jersey he wears.
No...I actually have family who has personal knowledge of the kind of guy he is...and they have nothing but good thing to say about him. It has nothing to do with the color of his jersey at this point in the discussion.
And the family is a cousin (well, my brother's in-laws), who works for the Giants.
I don't make character assertions about a guy based off of what
You don't? You'd be in a vast minority then, because everyone on this board has been calling guys like Terrell Owens and Desean Jackson (whose behavior I find identical to Beckham's) assholes and worse for years.
No...I actually have family who has personal knowledge of the kind of guy he is...and they have nothing but good thing to say about him. It has nothing to do with the color of his jersey at this point in the discussion.
And the family is a cousin (well, my brother's in-laws), who works for the Giants.
That's great. And he's still a guy that acts like a jerk on the field.
There is nothing Odell has done that is even in the same universe
as TO's antics. If you think the sharpie and kneeling down on the star are in the same ballpark, I guess even spiking the football is crossing the line for you. Even with that level of theatrics, I don't find TO to be an ass for those reasons. I don't recall Odell playing a major role in destroying locker rooms.
Desean I could see. Except Odell doesn't pretend to be a crip, and doesn't owe his agent large sums of money.
When he came into the league, that was the main hole in his scouting report. Kinda small/average and the poor bench press was noteworthy.
In the NFL, it's literally the only question left.
The whole Norman saga showed he still has a ? Next to toughness. And this isn't just about that. It's about him acting out at times against overly physical/dirty opponents in the past. The Buffalo game wasn't just that cheap shot, he was acting funny that entire game. Same with the Panthers game, it wasn't just that dirty missile job it was the entire game. Hes targeted DBs in other games too, the Jax preseason game when he nailed Sergio Brown with a dirty shot. And Malcol Butlers physical play really bothered Odell in that Pats game.
Odell had a 1450/13 season in 15 games. But he dropped like 3 TDs including a couple of very important ones. He can be soo good. He just needs to chill out a bit imo, he can still be highly competitive amd retain that fire.
and this thread finally brought me in. I can't believe there are actually fans nitpicking possibly the best player we've ever had at that position smh. It's mind boggling that if a player shows extreme passion for the game, the disdain for losing, high work ethic and ridiculous competitive nature it can be somehow overshadowed by his off field personality lol. Never been in any kind of off field trouble and he's simply living the life of a rich 23 year old. The Carolina game, of course it was overboard, but he'll mature. It's easy to forget that he's basically still a kid and I'm sure that most 23 year olds put in the same spotlight as Odell would be way worse. Let the man grow into himself..But quick background of myself...Die hard since the Dave Brown era that we'd like to forget lol (I was young and that's when I started understanding the game) Been through the debacles with you all (Minnesota 97, Baltimore SB, San Fran 02 (worst one to me, I got physically sick after that one, seriously)...and been through 2 out of the 4 Super Bowls we have of course. Born in 86, so that one and 90 of course I won't remember.
RE: RE: I don't make character assertions about a guy based off of what
You don't? You'd be in a vast minority then, because everyone on this board has been calling guys like Terrell Owens and Desean Jackson (whose behavior I find identical to Beckham's) assholes and worse for years.
Next time Beckham runs out to the star at midfield at Cowboys stadium or breaks out a sharpie......etc...etc.
Comparing him to T.O. Is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen on this board.
No because I'm not an 85 year old with a stick up my ass
The guy is the best player that I've ever seen in blue (didn't see LT). I'm not a sanctimonious person that will throw that away because a 23 year old lost his cool when he was targeted for a whole game. No one here has lost their cool before? All of the people that "can't root for him" get over yourselves, you're not morally superior.
Look, it's okay to not be okay with the expressiveness. That's
a generational thing. Everyone's allowed their own take on it, within reason.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
that he was willing to defend himself after a few bunches of trash threatened his career before the game started with bats. Fuck that noise. You can't let people like that get away with that shit.
a generational thing. Everyone's allowed their own take on it, within reason.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
So you're a great guy if you act like a jerk but score lots of touchdowns. Got it.
I guess fandom and stupidity really do go hand in hand.
a generational thing. Everyone's allowed their own take on it, within reason.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
So you're a great guy if you act like a jerk but score lots of touchdowns. Got it.
I guess fandom and stupidity really do go hand in hand.
No one said he's a great guy, Jesus. This is a strawman argument. Just that it's incredibly self righteous to not be able to root for him like many say given that he's has the possibility of being our best player since LT. If you want choir boys go to church. The fuck do you care if he's a jerk?
I've said multiple times that I don't care at all that he's a jerk. The people getting upset are the ones that can't seem to accept the possibility that a great Giants player can also be a jerk. Instead of calling him out on his ridiculous on field behavior we hear rationalizations about his intensity, everybody else does it, etc. It's irrational and it's hypocrisy, but that's already been pointed out here.
I've said multiple times that I don't care at all that he's a jerk. The people getting upset are the ones that can't seem to accept the possibility that a great Giants player can also be a jerk. Instead of calling him out on his ridiculous on field behavior we hear rationalizations about his intensity, everybody else does it, etc. It's irrational and it's hypocrisy, but that's already been pointed out here.
I see a lot less "rationalizations and hypocrisy" among most fans here than I see, as Ronnie put it so well, a hesitancy to leap from a dislike of his show boating obnoxious on the field behavior to labeling him a jerk, an idiot, a dumbass, or a bad person.
From your side you see rationalizations and hypocrisy, from the other side people see your judgemental disapprobation, narrow mindedness, and sanctimonious attitude.
I choose to rationalize and be hypocritical in your eyes than assume your views, which are no less a leap of faith. A documented leap of faith it appears by dint of reports of OBJs off field behavior.
Do you dislike Cruz as well for his salsa dance TD celebration? If not, what is the distinction?
If you haven't heard it I suggest you listen to Cruz's interview from yesterday I think on Giants.com. He talks about the reversal of roles he and Odell have had from first Cruz encouraging and mentoring Odell through his first training camp and first quarter of his rookie season struggle to get past his hamstring injury, to the way Odell has encouraged and mentored Cruz through his struggle to come back from the patella tendon and calf surgeries.
By any account, Cruz portrays Odell as an excellent, caring, intelligent and passionate team mate.
Maybe that will alter your opinion of Beckham - at least slightly.
I take into account the fact that he is young, he has a spotlight on him and he is also a fierce competitor. But calling your team out when they are down 35-7 vs Carolina and saying they lost interest by talking about "what are we doing after the game?" was a bad idea and raised eyebrows I'm sure.
If I am Odell, I keep my mouth shut and just play this year. Period end of story.
Finnegan was one of the dirtiest players in football. Norman is just a big mouth with a skill set for coverage, but is a cheap shot hitter.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
Who is remembered more fondly, Jerry Rice or Randy Moss?
Yes I believe in the responsibility of a Pro Athlete, a role model, etc to be better than that. We expect it from our military, our policemen/policewomen, etc and they don't have the fame or the money that pro athletes do.
It may just be his kryptonite. Norman can't compete with him physically so he got in his head. It's sad that is part of the game but it is. It could very well be the one thing that stops him from being the best ever. Can OBJ mature out of it?
All that being said there is no reason he can't fix this. It can very easily be looked back on as immaturity. OBJ vs Norman twice a year will be interesting to watch and will hopefully do great things for both of their career. If OBJ can fix that part of his game, which I believe is his biggest hurdle, he could be the best ever and Norman would end up an afterthought.
I respected Rice, but felt like Moss was a more physically gifted player.
Rather face Rice than Moss in their primes.
Point?
Sorry I'm late responding. I totally agree with your opinion on Rice and Moss. That is exactly my point and I guess I didn't make it clear. Who is most commonly regarded as the best WR ever? Hell some would claim Rice to be one of the best players ever. Yet Moss, in my opinion and yours, had more talent. So what's the difference between the two?
If you had to guess right now, outside of an injury, what would be the one thing that could hold Beckham back from being the best ever? It's not talent as his first 2 years have been incredible. I suppose he could retire too early but I doubt that. OBJ needs to decide if he wants to be the greatest ever and supplant Jerry Rice or be the next Terrel Owens, Ocho Cinco, or at best Randy Moss.
Contrast that with Anquan Boldin in that same game. Boldin was three years younger than Moss but with much more wear and tear, and a fraction of the talent. Boldin played that game like his life depended on it. A man possessed.
Or contrast it with Jerry Rice himself. At age 40 he had 92 catches for the Raiders, and in the Super Bowl played a huge game against a brutal Tampa defense.
Talent is only part of it. Gotta have heart and brains.
Recently I noticed that they have first been playing up Beckham then Norman which I assume is their trying to set up some kind of rivalry; IMHO they better review the tapes that I'm sure they have lying around in some closet and see if Norman is really the type of guy that the league wants to hang its hat on.
My mistake. Somehow I forgot he was in 42.
David. It wasn't? Football reference doesn't have any stats for him beyond that game.
Nevermind, completely forgot he was on SF. The post NE Moss and Oakland Moss never happened in my mind lol.
So he's an asshole. So what? I don't feel the need to make a case otherwise and I'm certainly not calling for the Giants to get rid of him because of it.
I don't give a shit what people that I don't know say about how he is off the field. Keep catching touchdowns and don't get suspended.
I'm fine rooting for an asshole. The guy is an incredible football player. Just don't tell me what a nice guy he is when the image he puts out to the world on Sunday is that of a huge asshole. I don't need the reassurance that he is something other than what he is showing me.
The disagreement here is that you're calling a guy an asshole because of the way he plays football. I've seen and read enough about what he does off the field to hold what I feel is an informed enough opinion that he is not at all an "asshole". Just because he plays with a flair and is a mega intense dude or celebrates after a big play doesn't make him an asshole in my book. Is he Barry Sanders? No, and he doesn't need to be. He's Odell Beckham. I think he acted like a shitty dude on 12/20/15. I also think that was an outlier.
You've already admitted that you know nothing about what he does off the field and don't care to and that's fine. I don't exactly follow his off field life daily but I do know enough to say that he's not a bad kid by any means.
You know who's an asshole? Greg Hardy is an asshole. Ray Rice is an asshole. Guys like that are who I have a problem with. Not guys who go all out on the field and don't do anything wrong off of it.
Like I said. If Beckham was on another team, I'd say the same things I say about someone like DeSean Jackson. I hate the guy, think he's annoying to play against and want to see him get leveled every time he has the football. I'd still respect the talent (even though Beckham is quite a bit better than Jackson). It's just being a fan. So, no.. all of this "if Beckham were an Eagle..." and complaining about a double standard is really just a waste of time.
And like I said I'm fine accepting that he's a shitty dude. If he does his job as well as he's been doing it that's all that fundamentally matters.
Let's try to stay in the realm of the reasonable. He likes to dance after touchdowns. That goes back to Billy White Shoes Johnson like half a century ago.
I also don't think Odell is as hated as you might think. I'm sure guys in this league want to lay him out but there are also times during most games where a defender will take him down and he'll get up and give them a quick pat on the helmet and say "hey, nice play". I think there's still a degree of respect. I'd rather more of that and less of the celebrating but it's just who he is.. I don't think any less of him for it.
He looked pretty damn stupid doing it.
No, I just don't believe in disrespecting other players.
I agree with you that it's happening all over the field. Beckham isn't the only guy doing really shitty dances.
But there's no doubt a lot of people seem to think it's pretty cool. You've got me there.
You don't seem to be able to distinguish between celebrating an accomplishment and disrespecting an opponent.
And if Beckham wants to keep showing people up, fine. I'm not calling for him to be benched or traded. He doesn't owe me anything. If he wants to, in my opinion, look like a god damn fool every time he scores a TD that's his prerogative. And it's my prerogative to think he's an asshole.
I don't care. I just take it with a huge mountain of salt when anyone tells me he's a good mood when they're saying it basically just because of the jersey he wears.
No...I actually have family who has personal knowledge of the kind of guy he is...and they have nothing but good thing to say about him. It has nothing to do with the color of his jersey at this point in the discussion.
And the family is a cousin (well, my brother's in-laws), who works for the Giants.
You don't? You'd be in a vast minority then, because everyone on this board has been calling guys like Terrell Owens and Desean Jackson (whose behavior I find identical to Beckham's) assholes and worse for years.
Quote:
Ugh.
No...I actually have family who has personal knowledge of the kind of guy he is...and they have nothing but good thing to say about him. It has nothing to do with the color of his jersey at this point in the discussion.
And the family is a cousin (well, my brother's in-laws), who works for the Giants.
That's great. And he's still a guy that acts like a jerk on the field.
Desean I could see. Except Odell doesn't pretend to be a crip, and doesn't owe his agent large sums of money.
In the NFL, it's literally the only question left.
The whole Norman saga showed he still has a ? Next to toughness. And this isn't just about that. It's about him acting out at times against overly physical/dirty opponents in the past. The Buffalo game wasn't just that cheap shot, he was acting funny that entire game. Same with the Panthers game, it wasn't just that dirty missile job it was the entire game. Hes targeted DBs in other games too, the Jax preseason game when he nailed Sergio Brown with a dirty shot. And Malcol Butlers physical play really bothered Odell in that Pats game.
Odell had a 1450/13 season in 15 games. But he dropped like 3 TDs including a couple of very important ones. He can be soo good. He just needs to chill out a bit imo, he can still be highly competitive amd retain that fire.
Quote:
they do on the field.
You don't? You'd be in a vast minority then, because everyone on this board has been calling guys like Terrell Owens and Desean Jackson (whose behavior I find identical to Beckham's) assholes and worse for years.
Next time Beckham runs out to the star at midfield at Cowboys stadium or breaks out a sharpie......etc...etc.
Comparing him to T.O. Is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen on this board.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
Quote:
a generational thing. Everyone's allowed their own take on it, within reason.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
So you're a great guy if you act like a jerk but score lots of touchdowns. Got it.
I guess fandom and stupidity really do go hand in hand.
Quote:
In comment 13047877 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
a generational thing. Everyone's allowed their own take on it, within reason.
He's incredibly talented and also has room to grow up.
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to expressiveness. However, to "like him less" or not be able to root for him when he's had two of the best seasons a young WR has ever had is complete self righteousness. There's no two ways about it. If this were Freddie Mitchell or someone I'd understand it.
So you're a great guy if you act like a jerk but score lots of touchdowns. Got it.
I guess fandom and stupidity really do go hand in hand.
No one said he's a great guy, Jesus. This is a strawman argument. Just that it's incredibly self righteous to not be able to root for him like many say given that he's has the possibility of being our best player since LT. If you want choir boys go to church. The fuck do you care if he's a jerk?
I see a lot less "rationalizations and hypocrisy" among most fans here than I see, as Ronnie put it so well, a hesitancy to leap from a dislike of his show boating obnoxious on the field behavior to labeling him a jerk, an idiot, a dumbass, or a bad person.
From your side you see rationalizations and hypocrisy, from the other side people see your judgemental disapprobation, narrow mindedness, and sanctimonious attitude.
I choose to rationalize and be hypocritical in your eyes than assume your views, which are no less a leap of faith. A documented leap of faith it appears by dint of reports of OBJs off field behavior.
If you haven't heard it I suggest you listen to Cruz's interview from yesterday I think on Giants.com. He talks about the reversal of roles he and Odell have had from first Cruz encouraging and mentoring Odell through his first training camp and first quarter of his rookie season struggle to get past his hamstring injury, to the way Odell has encouraged and mentored Cruz through his struggle to come back from the patella tendon and calf surgeries.
By any account, Cruz portrays Odell as an excellent, caring, intelligent and passionate team mate.
Maybe that will alter your opinion of Beckham - at least slightly.