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Position Battles - Offense

JOMO25 : 7/28/2016 8:30 am
QB - Both guys firmly entrenched in their roles.

RB - Not the most talented group.

Jennings is like that Quadruple A baseball player (great minor leaguer, sub par major leaguer) only in this case I mean to say that he is a really good back-up RB but uninspiring as a starter.

Williams is a guy some like, most seem to dislike. Count me in the former. I think he surprises people with a move to the # 1 role.

Vereen - Does everything well especially as a receiver. With that being said, he really lacks the explosiveness that you often see in backs that fit his mold. Still, his role is pretty well defined.

Darkwa - Nothing not to like about his physical ability and hard driving running style. If he can continue to develop, I find myself wondering if Jennings (or Williams, I suppose) roster spot becomes tenuous.

Perkins - Quick, explosive 200 lb whose projection is not unlike Tiki Barber coming out of college. Let's hope its as good a draft pick as many believe.

FB:

Will Johnson - good versatile/physical and under the radar signing. I don't think Whitlock has a spot on offense as a result (let's see if he can make the team as a pass rushing DT).

TE:

Larry Donnell - he's had some success but strikes me as somewhat awkward catching the ball and is the least physical TE I've ever seen after the catch. If the kids develop, he may be a goner.

Will Tye - saw him a few years ago at Stony Brook. While he doesn't fit the 6'6" ex basketball player mold that you see so often these days, to me he's the kind of guy that will carve out a nice 5+ year career for himself. Strikes me as a reliable, hard working guy with athleticism that shows itself more so in games than height/weight/speed triangle numbers.

Jerrell Adams- Maybe he got lost in the Steve Spurrier nonsense, maybe it was the excruciatingly bad QB play at South Carolina, but this kid screams "top prospect" despite the low draft spot. I am really looking fwd to seeing what Eli/MacAdoo can do with him.

Lacosse/Malleck - I wouldn't be surprised if one of these guys (Lacosse probably has a better chance) to steal Donnell's roster spot. That would make for an awfully young TE corps.

LT - I still think Flowers is more of a RT, but the Giants don't ask my opinion w this stuff :).

LG/C - I think Pugh/Richburg could be a top interior lineman duo.

RG - Here's where it gets dicey. Can Jerry improve per the LeCharles Bentley camp? I don't think any of us can say, but surely he is motivated and realized his career is at a make or break point.

RT - Newhouse is flat out awful. I am encouraged by Hart especially after reading here on BBI that he's improved his fitness. I don't know if he is better suited for RG or RT but hoping the latter.

Bench: Besides Brett Jones who I am really hopeful that his "red shirt" year provided value, I can't say I am too knowledgable about Stingily, Seymour etc. They do seem to believe in some upside w/ Cleary and Gettis.
Good discussion above, points of merit  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 8:56 am : link
I've gone on record that nothing would shock me right now as far as cuts go when it comes to the following guys:

RB Jennings - he is 31, ancient for a RB. Do we keep O. Darkwa if he shows well in camp over Jennings? Doubtful BUT not without possibility. The coaches will see if Jennings has lost a shade, a shade of quickness and speed he couldn't afford to lose.

TE Donnell - he will be a UFA at year end. If Adams shows well; Lacosse shows well; Mallek shows well, than who do you keep and/or not keep? I think McAdoo is building so he'll go with the youth. I've had visions of Donnell showing well through 2 pre-season games and he gets traded along with a 6th for a starting RT, an upgrade RT. This would be a trade where both teams benefit and get something out of nothing.

LB Herzlich - he is 29 and while he can play all 3 LB spots against the run at POA he is a liability chasing and in pass coverage. Basically, he is a special teamer. Is UFA signee LB Shepard not a better choice to keep at this point? Not sure, but we'll learn in camp. Again, McAdoo is going to go younger whenever he can so a UDFA could surprise.

I like OC Brett Jones to be the backup center IF he has in fact learned the technique nuances of American football. He gained some serious size so he likely won't get pushed around as much this camp. I'm hopeful only because he so dominated in Canada. Does that translate to American NFL football? We shall see.

RT B. Hart - he played RT in college but some say he really doesn't have the feet for NFL RT and should play RG instead. We'll see what coach Solari can do with the young man who improved his physique this off-season. He is 22, 2nd year, and learning. Upside?

Our offense has some good young players; continuity; and Eli / OBJ. We will score if we stay healthy.

Go Giants!
SGMen  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/28/2016 9:05 am : link
Where did you see that OC Brett Jones has gained "serious weight" ?

What are the numbers now? He was undersized for NFL.

The difference between CFL and NFL is significant, requiring quite an adjustment. The spacing between the DL and OL alone is significant, requiring different use of hands in the NFL than the CFL The CFL spacing is 1 meter, whereas the NFKL is much closer and in your face. Quicker reaction time required and must get your hands in the correct spots much fast to be effective.
more on Jones  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/28/2016 9:13 am : link
Found this from a Jordan Raanan article last June discussing Brett Jones transition from CFL to NFL.

Quote:
Looking at the Giants offensive linemen during practice in shorts and shells, Jones sticks out, but not necessarily for the right reasons. He's small (6-2, 318) in comparison to his teammates. He's the shortest offensive lineman on the roster (along with guard Adam Gettis) and doesn't look as solid as bulky as most of his linemates.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2015/06/brett_jones_giants_challenges.html

The numbers on the BBI roster match what the article seays, 6-2, 318lbs.

Hopefully a year in the weight room helped him, and that last year’s knee injury (IR) wasn’t serious.

RE: SGMen  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 9:27 am : link
In comment 13048057 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
Where did you see that OC Brett Jones has gained "serious weight" ?

What are the numbers now? He was undersized for NFL.

The difference between CFL and NFL is significant, requiring quite an adjustment. The spacing between the DL and OL alone is significant, requiring different use of hands in the NFL than the CFL The CFL spacing is 1 meter, whereas the NFKL is much closer and in your face. Quicker reaction time required and must get your hands in the correct spots much fast to be effective.
He is now listed at 318 on the team page. I think he was all of 300 last year and he isn't 6' 2" either, maybe 6' 1.5" at most based on some observations I read from fans last year on this site. If he has developed, great, but at worst he gets put on the practice squad for a year. I don't think we'll give up on him entirely unless it is clear he has no potential to be a bonafide NFL player. I have hope is all.
Tye's weight and speed  
Carl in CT : 7/28/2016 9:40 am : link
Ratio is off the chart. Only knock is 6 ft 2 is not 6 ft 5.
Great  
AcidTest : 7/28/2016 9:52 am : link
summary. TE and OL are what I’m watching.
RE: more on Jones  
Beer Man : 7/28/2016 9:54 am : link
In comment 13048061 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
Found this from a Jordan Raanan article last June discussing Brett Jones transition from CFL to NFL.



Quote:


Looking at the Giants offensive linemen during practice in shorts and shells, Jones sticks out, but not necessarily for the right reasons. He's small (6-2, 318) in comparison to his teammates. He's the shortest offensive lineman on the roster (along with guard Adam Gettis) and doesn't look as solid as bulky as most of his linemates.


http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2015/06/brett_jones_giants_challenges.html

The numbers on the BBI roster match what the article seays, 6-2, 318lbs.

Hopefully a year in the weight room helped him, and that last year’s knee injury (IR) wasn’t serious.
I wonder if last year was a real injury for Jones, or was the team looking to Red Shirt him a year while he bulked up and learned the US game.
RE: more on Jones  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 10:09 am : link
In comment 13048061 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
Found this from a Jordan Raanan article last June discussing Brett Jones transition from CFL to NFL.



Quote:


Looking at the Giants offensive linemen during practice in shorts and shells, Jones sticks out, but not necessarily for the right reasons. He's small (6-2, 318) in comparison to his teammates. He's the shortest offensive lineman on the roster (along with guard Adam Gettis) and doesn't look as solid as bulky as most of his linemates.


http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2015/06/brett_jones_giants_challenges.html

The numbers on the BBI roster match what the article seays, 6-2, 318lbs.

Hopefully a year in the weight room helped him, and that last year’s knee injury (IR) wasn’t serious.
318 is not smallish by any means, especially for a guy only 6' 2". So he is a full inch shorter than the next guy. Some guys overcome the height, and for OC I don't think height really matters too much.

But I do stand corrected as my memory (faulty at that) made me believe he was smaller last year. I do recall reports he looked small and posters from camp said much the same, but if smaller meant height well I'm no worried about that.

With B. Jones, it is all about mastering technique. Either he does or he doesn't.
WR?  
Front Row Endzone 102 : 7/28/2016 10:09 am : link
Nice write-up, I like hearing differing opinions!

How about your thoughts on WR?
RE: WR?  
Beer Man : 7/28/2016 10:14 am : link
In comment 13048143 Front Row Endzone 102 said:
Quote:
Nice write-up, I like hearing differing opinions!

How about your thoughts on WR?
I was going to ask the same. It appears there will be some battles for the back-end of the group.
SGMen  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/28/2016 10:17 am : link
thanks. Agree that height is not as much a concern (especially for a center). More interested in his technique development and if he got stronger.

Thanks
RE: SGMen  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 10:20 am : link
In comment 13048172 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
thanks. Agree that height is not as much a concern (especially for a center). More interested in his technique development and if he got stronger.

Thanks
I'm assuming with an off-season he has worked out and improved but until they put the pads on next week and practice we won't know. Note: no pads the first 3 days of camp which I found odd???

As a fan, you have to hope that both RT B. Hart and OC B. Jones show they can play in this league and hold their own. UFA and / or an injury can change things drastically and you don't want a dramatic dropoff when a backup is plugged into the lineup.
Methinks Darkwa,  
Doomster : 7/28/2016 10:25 am : link
who had a leg fracture keeping him out of OTA's, is odd man out....he has a good series, and then gets injured....it's looking like RB by committee again, but I don't think it will be as extreme...hopefully, MC goes with the hot runner for more than one series...

Cruz's health, and SS's development, are two question marks....Then we have OBj and Harris....after that, it's a matter of someone rising from the pack.....

OL has to stay healthy....there is no depth....

TE may be more wide open than people think....
Here are my hunches on some WR underdogs  
Front Row Endzone 102 : 7/28/2016 10:26 am : link
These are just my hunches on some underdogs. I'll let someone more knowledgeable pick the middle WRs:

Roger Lewis: My guess is that given earlier reports on Lewis, the Giants will give serious consideration to him, but in the end the Giants will bias toward taller receivers after OBJ, Shepard and Cruz. Lewis ends up getting cut, gets picked up on waivers, and ends up doing decent for another team.

Anthony Dable: In spite of his height, he's probably too green. My guess is that he ends up getting cut, survives waivers, and gets signed to our practice team.

Unlike most posters  
mrvax : 7/28/2016 10:26 am : link
I believe Donnell will be the starting TE if healthy. I think he gets another chance based on his catching ability and big red zone target. I know about his warts but I believe the staff will want him big time.
RE: Here are my hunches on some WR underdogs  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 10:31 am : link
In comment 13048191 Front Row Endzone 102 said:
Quote:
These are just my hunches on some underdogs. I'll let someone more knowledgeable pick the middle WRs:

Roger Lewis: My guess is that given earlier reports on Lewis, the Giants will give serious consideration to him, but in the end the Giants will bias toward taller receivers after OBJ, Shepard and Cruz. Lewis ends up getting cut, gets picked up on waivers, and ends up doing decent for another team.

Anthony Dable: In spite of his height, he's probably too green. My guess is that he ends up getting cut, survives waivers, and gets signed to our practice team.
I agree on Dable. I don't doubt he makes the practice squad simply because he is a BEAST going up for the ball but way to raw to expect him to be NFL ready.

As for UDFA's like WR Powe and Lewis, it'll be a battle and special teams ability may be the final factor. Not sure which of these two is capable as a ST....or even as a wideout.
WR:  
JOMO25 : 7/28/2016 10:32 am : link
OBJ: Top 3 WR. Needs to keep the theatrics in check. On the field he should be helped greatly by Shephard and the hopeful return of Cruz.

Cruz: Let's hope he can be what he was or even 80% of what he was.

Shephard: To me, he's Brandin Cook. Polished, mature game with dynamic athletic ability.

Harris: though he can make plays, the # 2 or 3 WR spot if too lofty for him. But at # 4 I think he is well suited (to go along w his ST prowess).

With low drafted or undrafted guys like: Davis, Lewis, Powe, White, King, Dable (I put them in order of most likely make the team), there are a nice array of physical attributes to develop. But clearly...special teams performance is critical for these guys.
RE: Unlike most posters  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 10:33 am : link
In comment 13048194 mrvax said:
Quote:
I believe Donnell will be the starting TE if healthy. I think he gets another chance based on his catching ability and big red zone target. I know about his warts but I believe the staff will want him big time.
The thing that hurts Donnell the most is he can't block very well!! He's never improved that part of his game, at least not to a great degree. I think Donnell, if healthy, is a redzone TE for us and TE W. Tye starts. It would be great to see Donnell have a strong season and get a big off-season deal from another team so we can possibly get a compensatory pick. We shall see.
I'm afraid upside is exactly what they DON'T see in Gettis.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/28/2016 11:20 am : link
Quote:
They do seem to believe in some upside w/ Cleary and Gettis.

As he approaches his 28th birthday, Gettis pretty much is what he is: a good backup left guard. (You could also argue that, if Pugh is the de facto third tackle, Gettis actually offers insurance against an injury at multiple positions.) If he proves that he can snap, Gettis might cement a roster spot by beating out Jones and backing up both Pugh and Richburg. In any case, if he sticks it will for immediate value, not long-term upside.

Cleary is 26 and on his fifth team. His ceiling is probably fourth tackle. His floor is his couch. He did go to BC though, so there's always that...
RE: I'm afraid upside is exactly what they DON'T see in Gettis.  
SGMen : 7/28/2016 11:31 am : link
In comment 13048277 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:


Quote:


They do seem to believe in some upside w/ Cleary and Gettis.


As he approaches his 28th birthday, Gettis pretty much is what he is: a good backup left guard. (You could also argue that, if Pugh is the de facto third tackle, Gettis actually offers insurance against an injury at multiple positions.) If he proves that he can snap, Gettis might cement a roster spot by beating out Jones and backing up both Pugh and Richburg. In any case, if he sticks it will for immediate value, not long-term upside.

Cleary is 26 and on his fifth team. His ceiling is probably fourth tackle. His floor is his couch. He did go to BC though, so there's always that...
From what I've read and only from what I've read, I believe OG / OC Seymour makes it over OG Gettis.

Pugh has to be the 3rd OT over OT Stingley. If Newhouse went down, well, maybe the RT is Hart or Stingley BUT if God forbid LT E. Flowers went down you have to believe they'd move Pugh over to LT and plug in OG Seymour. That is how I see it.
If the giants are counting on Hart as depth or future starter at RT  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/28/2016 11:31 am : link
then the Giants are in more dire need than I projected.

I know that Klatuu and I disagree, but IMO, Hart is a future starter at RG, not RT.

I think Cleary backs up Newhouse and Jerry / Hart compete for RG.
GBO, I only go by what I see.  
Klaatu : 7/28/2016 11:48 am : link
And even though Giants.com has Hart listed as a Guard, throughout the spring he was lining up at RT with the ones and twos. We'll see what happens in the summer.
Klaatu  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/28/2016 2:10 pm : link
Not a dig at you. We just have different reads on this. We both have positive outlooks for Hart, just at different spots.

It will sort itself out soon enough.


With over $18 million in cap space will we make a trade  
SGMen : 7/29/2016 12:59 am : link
during camp with someone to fill a hole?

I've been contemplating whether we'd try to trade someone(s) from a position where we have depth for one where we don't, particularly RT. I know teams would be leery of trading a viable RT for say a TE like Donnell (starting material) and a conditional pick (5, 6, or 7?).

The RT would likely be high priced base salary and have some quality youth behind him, making him expendable. I'm not sure of any team that truly has this situation but there are 31 teams. After 2 pre-season games and some injuries at TE, maybe we get lucky and find a trade partner?

And if not RT, maybe WLB over JT Thomas, J Casillas? Just upgrade the position? Our front seven getting even better would be a blessing.

I have had similar thoughts  
Gross Blau Oberst : 7/29/2016 7:41 am : link
about trading Donnell. Was specifically for another player, but I see him as expendable. Especially if the younger guys shine in camp as projected. I could easily see Tye, Adams and LaCosse as the three TEs on the final 53. Add Malleck if he proves a good blocker to compensate for OL edge blocking.

Just need to find a willing and needy partner.
RE: Klaatu  
Klaatu : 7/29/2016 10:50 am : link
In comment 13048605 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
Not a dig at you. We just have different reads on this. We both have positive outlooks for Hart, just at different spots.

It will sort itself out soon enough.



I didn't take it as a dig, dude, just a difference of opinion. It's not uncommon for a college OT to become an OG in the pros, and the book on Hart was that's where he'd end up. In this case, though, I think the book was a little short-sighted, and I'm buoyed by the steps Hart has taken to improve his footwork and athleticism with the goal of playing OT in mind. He's young enough and appears motivated enough to possibly succeed in this where others have failed. The Giants may be on board with this, because as I said earlier, they had him play RT exclusively in the spring.

And again, I hate to sound like the Jerry troll, but I don't see Hart or anyone else on the roster supplanting Jerry at RG. His run-blocking has been sub-par but his pass-blocking has been okay. Hopefully, the time he spent at Bentley's camp will pay dividends for him (and the Giants) going forward. Ditto for his new position coach. It's also a contract year for him and that should add some extra motivation for him to perform well.

The guy who should be worried is Newhouse. Although he's played a bit better than most give him credit for, he is still eminently upgradeable, and even if the Giants' efforts to find that upgrade have been half-hearted at best, they're most likely still looking. I hope Hart can give him a run for his money this summer, or, failing that, that a decent OT shakes loose from another team.
RE: I have had similar thoughts  
SGMen : 7/29/2016 11:27 pm : link
In comment 13049197 Gross Blau Oberst said:
Quote:
about trading Donnell. Was specifically for another player, but I see him as expendable. Especially if the younger guys shine in camp as projected. I could easily see Tye, Adams and LaCosse as the three TEs on the final 53. Add Malleck if he proves a good blocker to compensate for OL edge blocking.

Just need to find a willing and needy partner.
The right fit RT and a willing partner to trade with, well, hard to find and do in the NFL. Plus, I think we'd want to trade by the end of game 1 of pre-season so the player has time to mesh. Or at least right after game 2 of pre-season. A good veteran would pick things up in due time.

But you only trade a "starting quality" TE, even if he is your #2 TE, if you have a clearcut upgrade for RT and the guys behind Tye look good. Reason being that I think Donnell and Tye form a super solid two TE, redzone 5 yards or less tandem. Donnell isn't a great blocker but he is a huge target and will go up for the ball and use his body to shield defenders. We need redzone offense to improve and I see our TE's keying that.
RE: RE: Klaatu  
SGMen : 7/29/2016 11:31 pm : link
In comment 13049367 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13048605 Gross Blau Oberst said:


Quote:


Not a dig at you. We just have different reads on this. We both have positive outlooks for Hart, just at different spots.

It will sort itself out soon enough.





I didn't take it as a dig, dude, just a difference of opinion. It's not uncommon for a college OT to become an OG in the pros, and the book on Hart was that's where he'd end up. In this case, though, I think the book was a little short-sighted, and I'm buoyed by the steps Hart has taken to improve his footwork and athleticism with the goal of playing OT in mind. He's young enough and appears motivated enough to possibly succeed in this where others have failed. The Giants may be on board with this, because as I said earlier, they had him play RT exclusively in the spring.

And again, I hate to sound like the Jerry troll, but I don't see Hart or anyone else on the roster supplanting Jerry at RG. His run-blocking has been sub-par but his pass-blocking has been okay. Hopefully, the time he spent at Bentley's camp will pay dividends for him (and the Giants) going forward. Ditto for his new position coach. It's also a contract year for him and that should add some extra motivation for him to perform well.

The guy who should be worried is Newhouse. Although he's played a bit better than most give him credit for, he is still eminently upgradeable, and even if the Giants' efforts to find that upgrade have been half-hearted at best, they're most likely still looking. I hope Hart can give him a run for his money this summer, or, failing that, that a decent OT shakes loose from another team.
RG John Jerry isn't getting replaced by anyone on the current roster, nor is Robert Newhouse. I like RT/RG B. Hart's potential but he is very young and learning. My hope is he develops enough to truly CHALLENGE Newhouse and Jerry because both are UFA's at season's end and well I'm thinking both could leave if guys like OC OG Brett Jones, RT Hart, and possibly draft picks look like the answer. Big ifs.
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