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NFT: Ranking the Founding Fathers

AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:03 am
After reading Ron Chernow's excellent biography of Alexander Hamilton, I'm placing Hamilton at or near the top. I'm a huge fan of Jefferson and Adams but believe Hamilton had more impact than either one.

1) He was Washington's right hand man during the war and frequently was in charge of the army. It seems clear he was Washington's most trusted adviser before and after the war. He was Parcells' Belichick.

2) The impact of the Federalist Papers is well documented. Hamilton was easily the most productive of the founders. While Jefferson was toying with inventions and conspiring with the French, Hamilton was doing real work for the union.

3) He laid the foundation for our financial system and without his work the fledgling republic may have failed. He is in large part responsible for NY becoming the financial capital of the world.

There's no doubt it was a team effort with some incredibly capable and hard working men being at the right place and time in history. If Hamilton isn't the most influential, he is definitely the most underrated.

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He was eligible to be President because  
buford : 7/28/2016 12:23 pm : link
anyone who was a citizen in 1787 when the Constitution was adopted was eligible to be President. He was a US citizen at that time.
BTW  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 12:48 pm : link
MLK was a Braves fan.

buford, I see you're all over it as usual.
RE: RE: RE: Jefferson is a complex figure...  
njm : 7/28/2016 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13048386 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


MLK was anti-homosexual, at a time when practically everyone was anti-homosexual. Why is he a hero, but not someone before him that was racist, when everyone was racist.

If you apply that standard there is really no one suitable.

I'm not saying who should or shouldn't be a role model or given hero status, but your criteria seems selective.


Eliminate everyone who EVER opposed gay marriage and we may need a Constitutional amendment to lower the minimum age you have to be to be President.
Njm  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 1:12 pm : link
The point. You missed it
RE: How to you have 103 duels ...  
BMac : 7/28/2016 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13048355 Csonka said:
Quote:
and only kill one man? What the heck were they shooting? And what's up with his wife that he has to duel to defend her honor every weekend?

As for GW not having kids ... what a shame. There are so many assholes in this country who felt the need to over populate the world with their weak seed. We need descendants of Washington ... and Einstein.


And Hulk Hogan!
Benedict Arnold has to be near the top too  
Mason : 7/28/2016 3:28 pm : link
One of the United States greatest generals and heroes. He carried Washington ass during the Revolutionary war. And he was absolutely right about Canadians.

Washington screwed him. SMH

RE: Benedict Arnold has to be near the top too  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 3:31 pm : link
In comment 13048727 Mason said:
Quote:
One of the United States greatest generals and heroes. He carried Washington ass during the Revolutionary war. And he was absolutely right about Canadians.

Washington screwed him. SMH


Up until the part he sold out his country for cash and became one of the most notorious traitors in history.

Arnold got the shaft - no doubt about it - especially financially, and he was a great battlefield general but all of that is far overshadowed by his personal ego and his lack of moral compass. he belongs nowhere on the list of best founding fathers.
Arnold was a good general not a founding father  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 3:37 pm : link
He faced the typical stuff; politics, no funding, others taking credit, etc. He could have played a huge role if he would have toughed it out instead of acting like a whining pussy with hurt feelings. Washington didn't screw him.
BEN FUCKING FRANKLIN  
x meadowlander : 7/28/2016 3:53 pm : link
Don't get me started. Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat.

Inventions.

•Bifocals - I'm wearing a fucking pair.

•Electricity - FATHER OF ELECTRICITY. Come on.

•Lightning Rod

•Wave theory of light

•Franklin Stove - a KILLER design.

•Mapping the Gulf Stream - someone had to do it!

•Swim Fins

•Glass Armonica - look it up, it's awesome

•Flexible Urinary Catheter

•Odometer
RE: Jefferson is a complex figure...  
nyblue56 : 7/28/2016 4:03 pm : link
In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.


Everything that I have read about Jefferson and his slaves shows not complexity but hipocrasy. This is a man who built his home to hide the slaves and there quarters that ran every aspect of his home. His treatment of young boys, separating them out, creating a separate workforce that would maximize his profits, shows that his nature was about him and his fortune. He was a man who could but aside his ideals for the purpose of his profit and would not lose any sleep over it. He purposefully countered his friend will that set that friends slaves free, in order not waste the opportunity to maximize the returns on those slaves. He was not complex, he was calculating, hypocritical, and down right evil. He knew slavery was wrong but became one of the institutions most ardent supporters for money.
You see  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 4:07 pm : link
I refuse to judge them using today's norms. There are many things I don't like about Jefferson but he played a very role in America.
Hypocritical? OK  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 4:09 pm : link
You're still oversimplifying. Knock yourself out.
RE: BEN FUCKING FRANKLIN  
BMac : 7/28/2016 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13048765 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
Don't get me started. Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat.

Inventions.

•Bifocals - I'm wearing a fucking pair.

•Electricity - FATHER OF ELECTRICITY. Come on.

•Lightning Rod

•Wave theory of light

•Franklin Stove - a KILLER design.

•Mapping the Gulf Stream - someone had to do it!

•Swim Fins

•Glass Armonica - look it up, it's awesome

•Flexible Urinary Catheter

•Odometer


As well as being a world-class horn dog!
RE: You see  
nyblue56 : 7/28/2016 4:20 pm : link
In comment 13048791 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I refuse to judge them using today's norms. There are many things I don't like about Jefferson but he played a very role in America.


Understanding the times they lived in is fine. I am not one to judge base on just today's standard. My problem with Jefferson is that of all the founding father's he is the most idealistic and spoke highly of the equality of man. If you seem some of his writings it becomes quite difficult to try an reconcile that part of him with the other part that clearly cared for nothing more than making money on what he clearly knew was wrong. Not taking any thing away from him and his contributions but in Ranking him amongst the FF, I would place him at the bottom.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/28/2016 4:21 pm : link
I wouldn't judge them by today's norms, but viewing them as a champion of progress vs. a laggard is fair, IMV. Hamilton fairs well in that regard.

Hell, Lincoln said things that would be viewed as disgraceful today.

But the slavery discussion helps flesh out the entire narrative of great men with massive flaws.

Calling them hypocritical is sort of useless - everyone but me is hypocritical in some regard.
Arnold got the shaft when he spoke out against Congress  
Mason : 7/28/2016 4:22 pm : link
and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too.

Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold.
Jefferson was very unscrupulous when it came to politics  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 4:28 pm : link
He committed treason by communicating with the French behind the administration's back. Again, he had many faults but he truly believed some of things he was doing was best for the country. He did a complete 180 after becoming president.
RE: Arnold got the shaft when he spoke out against Congress  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 4:38 pm : link
In comment 13048833 Mason said:
Quote:
and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too.

Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold.


Not exactly. Arnold actually fought the court martial and won.

He spoke out about not being reimbursed for battles and military equipment he personally financed as well as compensation he felt he was owed.

Also, he felt slighted that lesser skilled battle commanders and contributors militarily were recognized and promoted ahead of him.

He won Fort Ticonderoga and was instrumental in Saratoga (among others) but often clashed with his superiors - for good reason usually.

but his treason far outweighs the positive, even though I understand his feelings and feel like he got hosed.
RE: RE: Arnold got the shaft when he spoke out against Congress  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 4:39 pm : link
In comment 13048864 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13048833 Mason said:


Quote:


and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too.

Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold.



Not exactly. Arnold actually fought the court martial and won.

He spoke out about not being reimbursed for battles and military equipment he personally financed as well as compensation he felt he was owed.

Also, he felt slighted that lesser skilled battle commanders and contributors militarily were recognized and promoted ahead of him.

He won Fort Ticonderoga and was instrumental in Saratoga (among others) but often clashed with his superiors - for good reason usually.

but his treason far outweighs the positive, even though I understand his feelings and feel like he got hosed.

and I believe Arnold represented himself at the court martial.
And his situation wasn't that different from others in the army  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 4:47 pm : link
He was an egomaniac who demanded glory
Just my Opinion  
Manning10 : 7/28/2016 7:09 pm : link
Washington -The General - not a great tactical strategist but by force of will and a giant pair of balls kept his army together out lasted the British ( keep in mind all could have been lost in Brooklyn 1776 but gambled and made a Brilliant evacuation in the face of superior forces to fight again)
The Politician - With Humility and Grace set the Template for what the office of the President became.

Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams
WOW a Puerto Rican writes a musical  
Sec 103 : 7/28/2016 7:26 pm : link
and all of a sudden Hamilton is the man... LOL Youse guys are beautiful. In any regard, i agree that he was an utterly important cog in our evolution after our independence but he was one of many.
And yes us Caribbeans stick together...
And just think if Britain offered  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 7:42 pm : link
Washington a commission instead of treating him like crap. He may have stuck with the Loyalists
Hamilton  
GF1080 : 7/28/2016 8:40 pm : link
I've always thought he and Washington were the most important in the development of the country into the world power we are. I read the Chernow Hamilton bio when it first came and am glad he's finally now getting all the recognition he deserves.

Hamilton could have been president. There is a line in the Constitution saying a foreign born man could be president as long as they were alive during the signing of the Constitution. That was basically inserted by Hamilton so he could be president one day but you know the story...
Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
mdc1 : 7/28/2016 9:01 pm : link
and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.
RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
GF1080 : 7/28/2016 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:
Quote:
and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.


Yeah being the richest country ever in history sucked for us.
RE: Why was Hamilton never president?  
NoPeanutz : 7/28/2016 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13048294 Steve L said:
Quote:
?

Because he was killed. Also, Chernow paints a picture of him as an outsider among the other founders... a Washingtonian Federalist when the others were Jeffersonian Republicans. Also, he was Caribbean born, and from a low-born "illegitimate" background.
RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
NoPeanutz : 7/28/2016 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:
Quote:
and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

This is a joke, right?
Fun bar game...  
lono801 : 7/28/2016 9:39 pm : link
Bet someone a drink they can't name the Presidents on the One Dollar Bill through the 50...

You tell them they can even look at the bills...and they can or can't include the Two Dollar Bill...

You will always win the drink...since they always include Hamilton.
RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 9:42 pm : link
In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:
Quote:
and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.


Without the Bank Bill the US may not have survived. When the bill expired in 20 years the economy tanked.

Hamilton is also known for this quote; it's better to remain silent and be thought a moron then to speak and remove any doubt.
Slightly revisionist history, blah  
section125 : 7/28/2016 10:06 pm : link
Washington
John Adams
Jefferson
Ben Franklin
Hamilton

Have to say Adams and Jefferson did most of the heavy lifting and with Franklin were the political face of the Revolution.

Lots of others like John Hancock, John Jay, Henry Knox etc were also working hard to keep it together.
Not taking anything away from  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 10:14 pm : link
Jefferson and Adams but Hamilton out worked them both. Jefferson worked to defeat ratification.
John Hancock  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 10:35 pm : link
was a late comer to the cause (relatively speaking). he was mostly initially out for himself financially, I believe he was one of the wealthiest people in Massachusetts - if not the wealthiest.

And he really didn't get involved in politics until he got hit in the bank account.

And Sam Adams had to kind of drag him into the political "game" kicking and screaming (if you believe what you read from that era).

Initially his biggest contributions were financial and I think at one point the war efforts wiped him out, but he was very good with $$ and came back.

He later became more involved, and on the relative scale he's absolutely one of the more interesting founding fathers, but I'd have to put him several notches below Sam Adams. Without Sam Adams there is no John Hancock.
I liked De Soto  
Jimmy Googs : 7/28/2016 11:57 pm : link
because he discovered the Mississippi..
RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
adamg : 7/29/2016 4:18 am : link
In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:
Quote:
and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.


Good call. I almost was duped again.

I forgot Hamilton personally wrote and submitted that bill and got Woodrow Wilson to sign it. And now our union is all the weaker since.
Is this a song?  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/29/2016 8:36 am : link
"I almost was duped again"
RE: The idea of dueling being legal - even in 1804 - seems crazy  
jackmac : 7/29/2016 11:49 am : link
You have it backwards. Burr was VP and Hamilton was former Secretary of Treasury under Washington.
RE: RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
jackmac : 7/29/2016 11:53 am : link
Hamilton created the National Bank. Federal Reserve Act was not passed until 1913 under Wilson
RE: I liked De Soto  
BMac : 7/29/2016 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13049158 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
because he discovered the Mississippi..


He made a hell of an automobile, too.
Washington had a great motor  
Davisian : 7/29/2016 12:50 pm : link
But Hamilton's 3-cone was exquisite.
Washington has got to be at the top for me.  
an_idol_mind : 7/29/2016 1:01 pm : link
I'm almost convinced the guy was literally bulletproof. He had an opportunity to rule this country multiple times and walked away from that amount of power. If he doesn't step down at the end of his second term, America turns into an insanely different country. It's just a shame that folks immediately ignored his farewell address.

All of the founding fathers are amazing in their own right, though. They were brilliant, strong-willed, but also deeply flawed human beings. It's a shame so many people blindly idolize them (or, in many cases, project their own desires onto them) instead of recognizing that, while amazing, they also were not the be-all and end-all of what America should be.
You all do realize  
RobCarpenter : 7/29/2016 1:14 pm : link
The musical was inspired by Chernow's book, yes?

I don't see anyone blindly idolizing them.  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/29/2016 1:22 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: Didn't he create the Federal Reserve Act  
mdc1 : 7/31/2016 8:53 am : link
In comment 13049474 jackmac said:
Quote:
Hamilton created the National Bank. Federal Reserve Act was not passed until 1913 under Wilson


Yeah...early form of too big to fail banking after several attempts then we needed the Jekyll island cabal and Aldrich duck hunt to seal it.

Guess we really find out how this ends in the future with ZIRP, helicopter Ben and wheelbarrows

Nothing like the power of the Fed Reserve inflation

As far as the musical wonder if it was also influence by Hamiltons tender writings to various SC gentlemen. Lol
mdc  
Bill2 : 7/31/2016 9:05 am : link
Without debating the downsides of the current policies of the Federal Reserve Bank, I assume we do agree that comparisons are very different when the US was seeking to invest in growth admidst a time when European mercantalism led to endless violent cycles and European capital went to its own colonies vs now when the US currency is the worlds reserve currency ?
Oh boy  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/31/2016 10:25 am : link
another nut job.
RE: Oh boy  
Big Al : 7/31/2016 10:27 am : link
In comment 13051104 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
another nut job.
i have company?
.  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/31/2016 11:25 am : link
Tell us about your sacrifices.
RE: RE: Oh boy  
BMac : 7/31/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13051109 Big Al said:
Quote:
In comment 13051104 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


another nut job.

i have company?


You have never had a peer!
Two numbers from the musical performed at White House...  
Milton : 7/31/2016 12:25 pm : link
One from 2009 when only one song had been written for the musical and it was still only envisioned as a concept album and not a staged musical, the other from 2016 when the cast visited the White House. You've probably seen the first one already, but not the second....

Miranda performs Alexander Hamilton at the White House in 2009

Cabinet Battle performed at White House in 2016
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