NFT: Ranking the Founding Fathers

Mussolini
Putin

-dust_bowl

Screw that guy!

- Simo Family

One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?

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Before ever becoming president, Jackson fought 103 duels–mostly defending the integrity of his wife. As a result, Jackson is said to have kept 37 pistols ready to be used in a duel at all times.

I believe he killed just one man, Charles Dickinson.

Washington must be at the top of the list. He's one of the very few great historical figures who only gets greater as you study him more closely. He was the Cincinnatus of his time, a man who could have ruled with absolute power and chose not to, and who willingly surrendered that power to return to his home. His significance cannot be overstated.

Most underrated is George Mason. The Virginia Declaration of Rights that he authored was enormously influential, with clear echoes in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. If I'm not mistaken, it was the first governing document of its kind that embraced the Lockean concept of natural rights inherent to all, regardless of class, which could not be legislated away by a ruling body.

?

In comment 13048280 WideRight said:

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One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?

It was John Jay who introduced the idea.

In comment 13048280 WideRight said:

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One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?

Not true. You had to be natural born or a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. The clause had no impact on Hamilton because he was a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

In comment 13048294 Steve L said:

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?

Because he was born in the Caribbean.

In comment 13048294 Steve L said:

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?

He was very unpopular due to being a Federalist, the whisky excise tax and he was born a bastard. He was also being blackmailed for boning a married woman. Jefferson paid newspapers to spread lies about him.

In comment 13048302 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 13048294 Steve L said: Quote: ? Because he was born in the Caribbean.

His place of birth had nothing to do with it.

Hamilton was eligible for the Presidency - but he cheated on his wife and it was a bit of scandal, sort of ruining his career.

He was also divisive at the time.

Constitutional Convention[edit]

The Constitution does not explain the meaning of "natural born".[26] On June 18, 1787, Alexander Hamilton submitted to the Convention a sketch of a plan of government.[27] The sketch provided for an executive "Governour" but had no eligibility requirements.[28] At the close of the Convention, Hamilton conveyed a paper to James Madison he said delineated the Constitution that he wished had been proposed by the Convention; he had stated its principles during the deliberations. Max Farrand wrote that it "...was not submitted to the Convention and has no further value than attaches to the personal opinions of Hamilton."[29] Article IX, section 1 of Hamilton's draft constitution provided: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States."[30]

On July 25, 1787, John Jay wrote to George Washington, presiding officer of the Convention:

Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government, and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.[32]

While the Committee of Detail originally proposed that the President must be merely a citizen, as well as a resident for 21 years, the Committee of Eleven changed "citizen" to "natural born citizen", and the residency requirement to 14 years, without recorded explanation after receiving Jay's letter. The Convention accepted the change without further recorded debate.[33]

AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month.

but many underrate the impact Hamilton made. Washington didn't do anything without consulting Hamilton.

In comment 13048317 BrettNYG10 said:

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AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month.

Thanks. I'm reading Founding Brothers again and I'll put that on the list.

In any case, blaming Jefferson for his unpopularity is overstating things. His feud with Adams damaged the Federalist party and sowed the seeds of its demise, which certainly contributed to his unpopularity among those who should have been his political allies.

through "James Madison: A life reconsidered". Highly recommended.

I've been spending all summer reading various presidential biographies and if there's one thing that caught my attention, it's that nothing has changed in 240 years. Nothing.

bio of Hamilton right now. And, yeah, Hamilton was pretty damn amazing. For intellectual power and breadth of mind, I think he's "the man."

Something about Jefferson has always rubbed me the wrong way. A LOT of our Founding Fathers owned slaves, but something about Jefferson has always stuck out. Maybe the whole Sally Hemings thing. And I thought I read somewhere that Jeff treated his slaves badly (of course, "treating slaves well" is an oxymoron). Also, he wrote something like, "Nothing is more clear than that these people should be free..." Just, not while he could use them and make money offm them and live large on them, I guess.

Chernow's bio of Washington is fantastic. You really walk away from it saying, "Yup, he's the father of the country." He was less about brilliance than resoluteness, gravitas, and self-sacrifice. Mount Vernon went to shit while he was away for years at a time fighting, but he refused to be paid. Stayed with the troops in the field at a time when generals did not do that. Freed his slaves when he died (or set it up so they'd be freed after Martha died).

Interesting fact/thought: Washington was childless (he adopted Martha's as his own). What if he'd had a son? How great would the public cry have been to institute his son as successor? There was a wide streak of monarchism alive even after the Revolution. Related, Washington stepped down from the presidency of his own accord -- key as a precedent for democratic elections, peaceful/stable change of admins and parties. Again, Washington was just great.

In comment 13048321 AP in Halfmoon said:

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In comment 13048317 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month. Thanks. I'm reading Founding Brothers again and I'll put that on the list.

I'm assuming that's worth a read since you're reading it a second time?

but Ben Franklin was a pretty amazing guy, and if I had to go back and live one of the Founding Fathers' lives, I think I'd choose Franklin.

Very underhanded stuff. Paying newspapers to print lies about Hamilton secretly wanting to Brit as president, making $1000s off government bonds, etc.

The bottom line is Jefferson's plan would have led to disaster and he blamed Hamilton for passing the constitution.

Washington's history as a businessman made him susceptible to Hamilton's arguments about the financial system. He deserves credit for balancing the egos in his Cabinet.

And prior to reading up on him, I didn't appreciate the profound impact Washington stepping down really had at the time.

a different approach and an easy read.

I think he got the most action, especially while in Paris!

In comment 13048344 AP in Halfmoon said:

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I think he got the most action, especially while in Paris!

lol, great minds ...

and only kill one man? What the heck were they shooting? And what's up with his wife that he has to duel to defend her honor every weekend?

As for GW not having kids ... what a shame. There are so many assholes in this country who felt the need to over populate the world with their weak seed. We need descendants of Washington ... and Einstein.

Hamilton waived his army pension, bounty lands, etc. and his family was basically broke. Hamilton's friends set up a fund for his family. It was kept secret by the Bank of NY until 1937.

he doesn't get as much acclaim as some other FF, but everything I read points to him being as influential in our independence as almost anyone.

hard to find credible sources though from almost 250 years ago. A lot of what I read, I'll read something else that contradicts the other source or calls it exaggerated. Anything not written and saved becomes questionable (and even some of the written stuff is biased). And there is a lot of questionable historical accounts from the revolutionary war era.

....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.

In comment 13048336 AP in Halfmoon said:

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Very underhanded stuff. Paying newspapers to print lies about Hamilton secretly wanting to Brit as president, making $1000s off government bonds, etc. The bottom line is Jefferson's plan would have led to disaster and he blamed Hamilton for passing the constitution.

Agree with your points. Hamilton was by far the best founding father. The musical is a must see as well.
As for the others (Jefferson, Washington, Madison etc..). They were racist slave owning hypocrites. It's very funny we see the wacky libertarian types go on about their pro-freedumbs while they worship those racists. My guess is we see them erased from the history books in the next 50 years and replaced by real heroes like MLK, FDR, Hamilton etc...

And both sides printed the most outrageous of lies about the other. People today generally don't grasp just how vicious politics of the early republic was.

Hamilton was the sitting vice president and Burr the former secretary of the treasury. Can you imagine that today?

CNN BREAKING NEWS: CNN has learned that Secretary of the Treasury Jack Lew has shot and mortally wounded Vice President Joseph Biden during a duel in Weehawken New Jersey earlier today. Shocking video taken by Lew's second on his IPhone shows Biden being too slow to trigger before being struck in the chest by Lew's fire. Biden has been rowed across the Hudson to a local residence where he is not expected to survive.

The cause of the rift between the two men seemed to arise from Lew believing his daughter's honor had been befouled when Biden touched her inappropriately as they posed for a photo. Lew approached Biden immediately after seeing the photograph and proceeded to swipe him across the face with a leather glove. The duel was arranged shortly thereafter.

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I thought he was the greatest man who ever lived. Then I read about Jefferson, Franklin, etc and had the same opinion. They were all great while having flaws.

I agree with Greg, you can't judge them based on today's standards.

In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said:

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....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.

LOL "a benevolent master"? He was a racist scumbag. He wanted rights (only negative rights mind you) only for white males. We need kids to look up to the Hamiltons and FDRs. Not white-supremacist!

Rarely mentioned with the likes of Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, etc., but a remarkable statesmen in his own right, and the only Presidential candidate other than Washington to run for re-election unopposed.

didn't result in death. Each guy would intentionally miss, they would go have a beer and discuss the issues. Hamilton never intended to kill Burr, who was an asshole despised by almost everyone.

In comment 13048379 Uncle Frank said:

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In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said: Quote: ....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery. LOL "a benevolent master"? He was a racist scumbag. He wanted rights (only negative rights mind you) only for white males. We need kids to look up to the Hamiltons and FDRs. Not white-supremacist!

MLK was anti-homosexual, at a time when practically everyone was anti-homosexual. Why is he a hero, but not someone before him that was racist, when everyone was racist.

If you apply that standard there is really no one suitable.

I'm not saying who should or shouldn't be a role model or given hero status, but your criteria seems selective.

Burr and Hamilton shot at the same time - Hamilton to miss, Burr to kill. Jackson, on the other hand, figured he couldn't outdraw Dickinson so he let Dickinson shoot first. Took a bullet and then he took careful aim and coldly gunned down Dickinson, who by the rules of dueling was forced to stand there until Jackson shot.

and, of course, FDR imprisoned American citizens during WWII simply due to their heritage. In any case, why waste your breath on a mentally ill person?

Chester A Arthur.....to great founders...they love their women and whiskey and would make great BBI members of honor.

Those guys had some massive balls. I can't imagine standing there like that.

I also didn't know until I read the book, his oldest son died in a duel 2 years earlier.

What did Garfield and Arthur found? Hell, Garfield was only president for six months.

anyone who was a citizen in 1787 when the Constitution was adopted was eligible to be President. He was a US citizen at that time.

MLK was a Braves fan.

buford, I see you're all over it as usual.

In comment 13048386 pjcas18 said:

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MLK was anti-homosexual, at a time when practically everyone was anti-homosexual. Why is he a hero, but not someone before him that was racist, when everyone was racist. If you apply that standard there is really no one suitable. I'm not saying who should or shouldn't be a role model or given hero status, but your criteria seems selective.

Eliminate everyone who EVER opposed gay marriage and we may need a Constitutional amendment to lower the minimum age you have to be to be President.

The point. You missed it

In comment 13048355 Csonka said:

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and only kill one man? What the heck were they shooting? And what's up with his wife that he has to duel to defend her honor every weekend? As for GW not having kids ... what a shame. There are so many assholes in this country who felt the need to over populate the world with their weak seed. We need descendants of Washington ... and Einstein.

And Hulk Hogan!

One of the United States greatest generals and heroes. He carried Washington ass during the Revolutionary war. And he was absolutely right about Canadians.

Washington screwed him. SMH

In comment 13048727 Mason said:

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One of the United States greatest generals and heroes. He carried Washington ass during the Revolutionary war. And he was absolutely right about Canadians. Washington screwed him. SMH

Up until the part he sold out his country for cash and became one of the most notorious traitors in history.

Arnold got the shaft - no doubt about it - especially financially, and he was a great battlefield general but all of that is far overshadowed by his personal ego and his lack of moral compass. he belongs nowhere on the list of best founding fathers.

He faced the typical stuff; politics, no funding, others taking credit, etc. He could have played a huge role if he would have toughed it out instead of acting like a whining pussy with hurt feelings. Washington didn't screw him.

Don't get me started. Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat.

Inventions.

•Bifocals - I'm wearing a fucking pair.

•Electricity - FATHER OF ELECTRICITY. Come on.

•Lightning Rod

•Wave theory of light

•Franklin Stove - a KILLER design.

•Mapping the Gulf Stream - someone had to do it!

•Swim Fins

•Glass Armonica - look it up, it's awesome

•Flexible Urinary Catheter

•Odometer

In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said:

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....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.

Everything that I have read about Jefferson and his slaves shows not complexity but hipocrasy. This is a man who built his home to hide the slaves and there quarters that ran every aspect of his home. His treatment of young boys, separating them out, creating a separate workforce that would maximize his profits, shows that his nature was about him and his fortune. He was a man who could but aside his ideals for the purpose of his profit and would not lose any sleep over it. He purposefully countered his friend will that set that friends slaves free, in order not waste the opportunity to maximize the returns on those slaves. He was not complex, he was calculating, hypocritical, and down right evil. He knew slavery was wrong but became one of the institutions most ardent supporters for money.

I refuse to judge them using today's norms. There are many things I don't like about Jefferson but he played a very role in America.

You're still oversimplifying. Knock yourself out.

In comment 13048765 x meadowlander said:

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Don't get me started. Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat. Inventions. •Bifocals - I'm wearing a fucking pair. •Electricity - FATHER OF ELECTRICITY. Come on. •Lightning Rod •Wave theory of light •Franklin Stove - a KILLER design. •Mapping the Gulf Stream - someone had to do it! •Swim Fins •Glass Armonica - look it up, it's awesome •Flexible Urinary Catheter •Odometer

As well as being a world-class horn dog!

In comment 13048791 AP in Halfmoon said:

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I refuse to judge them using today's norms. There are many things I don't like about Jefferson but he played a very role in America.

Understanding the times they lived in is fine. I am not one to judge base on just today's standard. My problem with Jefferson is that of all the founding father's he is the most idealistic and spoke highly of the equality of man. If you seem some of his writings it becomes quite difficult to try an reconcile that part of him with the other part that clearly cared for nothing more than making money on what he clearly knew was wrong. Not taking any thing away from him and his contributions but in Ranking him amongst the FF, I would place him at the bottom.

I wouldn't judge them by today's norms, but viewing them as a champion of progress vs. a laggard is fair, IMV. Hamilton fairs well in that regard.

Hell, Lincoln said things that would be viewed as disgraceful today.

But the slavery discussion helps flesh out the entire narrative of great men with massive flaws.

Calling them hypocritical is sort of useless - everyone but me is hypocritical in some regard.

and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too.

Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold.

He committed treason by communicating with the French behind the administration's back. Again, he had many faults but he truly believed some of things he was doing was best for the country. He did a complete 180 after becoming president.

In comment 13048833 Mason said:

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and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too. Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold.

Not exactly. Arnold actually fought the court martial and won.

He spoke out about not being reimbursed for battles and military equipment he personally financed as well as compensation he felt he was owed.

Also, he felt slighted that lesser skilled battle commanders and contributors militarily were recognized and promoted ahead of him.

He won Fort Ticonderoga and was instrumental in Saratoga (among others) but often clashed with his superiors - for good reason usually.

but his treason far outweighs the positive, even though I understand his feelings and feel like he got hosed.

In comment 13048864 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 13048833 Mason said: Quote: and saw how they were filling their pockets and securing shady land deals while neglecting the soldiers who made sacrifices on the battlefield. Washington privately told him he was right and this would change. Instead he let those founding fathers talk him into going along with a court martial because they were blowing sweet nothings into Washington's ears. They hated Washington too. Hamilton was the only one really defending Arnold. Not exactly. Arnold actually fought the court martial and won. He spoke out about not being reimbursed for battles and military equipment he personally financed as well as compensation he felt he was owed. Also, he felt slighted that lesser skilled battle commanders and contributors militarily were recognized and promoted ahead of him. He won Fort Ticonderoga and was instrumental in Saratoga (among others) but often clashed with his superiors - for good reason usually. but his treason far outweighs the positive, even though I understand his feelings and feel like he got hosed.

and I believe Arnold represented himself at the court martial.

He was an egomaniac who demanded glory

Washington -The General - not a great tactical strategist but by force of will and a giant pair of balls kept his army together out lasted the British ( keep in mind all could have been lost in Brooklyn 1776 but gambled and made a Brilliant evacuation in the face of superior forces to fight again)
The Politician - With Humility and Grace set the Template for what the office of the President became.

Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
Thomas Jefferson
John Adams

and all of a sudden Hamilton is the man... LOL Youse guys are beautiful. In any regard, i agree that he was an utterly important cog in our evolution after our independence but he was one of many.
And yes us Caribbeans stick together...

Washington a commission instead of treating him like crap. He may have stuck with the Loyalists

I've always thought he and Washington were the most important in the development of the country into the world power we are. I read the Chernow Hamilton bio when it first came and am glad he's finally now getting all the recognition he deserves.

Hamilton could have been president. There is a line in the Constitution saying a foreign born man could be president as long as they were alive during the signing of the Constitution. That was basically inserted by Hamilton so he could be president one day but you know the story...

and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:

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and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

Yeah being the richest country ever in history sucked for us.

In comment 13048294 Steve L said:

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?

Because he was killed. Also, Chernow paints a picture of him as an outsider among the other founders... a Washingtonian Federalist when the others were Jeffersonian Republicans. Also, he was Caribbean born, and from a low-born "illegitimate" background.

In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:

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and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

This is a joke, right?

Bet someone a drink they can't name the Presidents on the One Dollar Bill through the 50...

You tell them they can even look at the bills...and they can or can't include the Two Dollar Bill...

You will always win the drink...since they always include Hamilton.

In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:

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and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

Without the Bank Bill the US may not have survived. When the bill expired in 20 years the economy tanked.

Hamilton is also known for this quote; it's better to remain silent and be thought a moron then to speak and remove any doubt.

Washington
John Adams
Jefferson
Ben Franklin
Hamilton

Have to say Adams and Jefferson did most of the heavy lifting and with Franklin were the political face of the Revolution.

Lots of others like John Hancock, John Jay, Henry Knox etc were also working hard to keep it together.

Jefferson and Adams but Hamilton out worked them both. Jefferson worked to defeat ratification.

was a late comer to the cause (relatively speaking). he was mostly initially out for himself financially, I believe he was one of the wealthiest people in Massachusetts - if not the wealthiest.

And he really didn't get involved in politics until he got hit in the bank account.

And Sam Adams had to kind of drag him into the political "game" kicking and screaming (if you believe what you read from that era).

Initially his biggest contributions were financial and I think at one point the war efforts wiped him out, but he was very good with $$ and came back.

He later became more involved, and on the relative scale he's absolutely one of the more interesting founding fathers, but I'd have to put him several notches below Sam Adams. Without Sam Adams there is no John Hancock.

because he discovered the Mississippi..

In comment 13049065 mdc1 said:

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and the Federal Reserve Bank....yeah seems like he should be much farther down that list looking at our present situation.

Good call. I almost was duped again.

I forgot Hamilton personally wrote and submitted that bill and got Woodrow Wilson to sign it. And now our union is all the weaker since.

"I almost was duped again"

You have it backwards. Burr was VP and Hamilton was former Secretary of Treasury under Washington.

Hamilton created the National Bank. Federal Reserve Act was not passed until 1913 under Wilson

In comment 13049158 Jimmy Googs said:

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because he discovered the Mississippi..

He made a hell of an automobile, too.

But Hamilton's 3-cone was exquisite.

I'm almost convinced the guy was literally bulletproof. He had an opportunity to rule this country multiple times and walked away from that amount of power. If he doesn't step down at the end of his second term, America turns into an insanely different country. It's just a shame that folks immediately ignored his farewell address.

All of the founding fathers are amazing in their own right, though. They were brilliant, strong-willed, but also deeply flawed human beings. It's a shame so many people blindly idolize them (or, in many cases, project their own desires onto them) instead of recognizing that, while amazing, they also were not the be-all and end-all of what America should be.

The musical was inspired by Chernow's book, yes?

.

In comment 13049474 jackmac said:

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Hamilton created the National Bank. Federal Reserve Act was not passed until 1913 under Wilson

Yeah...early form of too big to fail banking after several attempts then we needed the Jekyll island cabal and Aldrich duck hunt to seal it.

Guess we really find out how this ends in the future with ZIRP, helicopter Ben and wheelbarrows

Nothing like the power of the Fed Reserve inflation

As far as the musical wonder if it was also influence by Hamiltons tender writings to various SC gentlemen. Lol

Without debating the downsides of the current policies of the Federal Reserve Bank, I assume we do agree that comparisons are very different when the US was seeking to invest in growth admidst a time when European mercantalism led to endless violent cycles and European capital went to its own colonies vs now when the US currency is the worlds reserve currency ?

another nut job.

In comment 13051104 AP in Halfmoon said:

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another nut job.

i have company?

Tell us about your sacrifices.

In comment 13051109 Big Al said:

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In comment 13051104 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: another nut job. i have company?

You have never had a peer!

One from 2009 when only one song had been written for the musical and it was still only envisioned as a concept album and not a staged musical, the other from 2016 when the cast visited the White House. You've probably seen the first one already, but not the second....

Miranda performs Alexander Hamilton at the White House in 2009

Cabinet Battle performed at White House in 2016