for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NFT: Ranking the Founding Fathers

AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:03 am
After reading Ron Chernow's excellent biography of Alexander Hamilton, I'm placing Hamilton at or near the top. I'm a huge fan of Jefferson and Adams but believe Hamilton had more impact than either one.

1) He was Washington's right hand man during the war and frequently was in charge of the army. It seems clear he was Washington's most trusted adviser before and after the war. He was Parcells' Belichick.

2) The impact of the Federalist Papers is well documented. Hamilton was easily the most productive of the founders. While Jefferson was toying with inventions and conspiring with the French, Hamilton was doing real work for the union.

3) He laid the foundation for our financial system and without his work the fledgling republic may have failed. He is in large part responsible for NY becoming the financial capital of the world.

There's no doubt it was a team effort with some incredibly capable and hard working men being at the right place and time in history. If Hamilton isn't the most influential, he is definitely the most underrated.

Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Stalin  
JayBinQueens : 7/28/2016 11:13 am : link
Mussolini
Putin

-dust_bowl
It sure as hell aint Andrew Jackson  
Modus Operandi : 7/28/2016 11:18 am : link
Screw that guy!

- Simo Family
Obviously a great man getting alot of attention now  
WideRight : 7/28/2016 11:22 am : link
One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?
Andrew Jackson had over 100 duels  
ATL_Giants : 7/28/2016 11:25 am : link
Quote:
Before ever becoming president, Jackson fought 103 duels–mostly defending the integrity of his wife. As a result, Jackson is said to have kept 37 pistols ready to be used in a duel at all times.

I believe he killed just one man, Charles Dickinson.
why am I not surprised  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 11:27 am : link
Washington must be at the top of the list. He's one of the very few great historical figures who only gets greater as you study him more closely. He was the Cincinnatus of his time, a man who could have ruled with absolute power and chose not to, and who willingly surrendered that power to return to his home. His significance cannot be overstated.

Most underrated is George Mason. The Virginia Declaration of Rights that he authored was enormously influential, with clear echoes in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. If I'm not mistaken, it was the first governing document of its kind that embraced the Lockean concept of natural rights inherent to all, regardless of class, which could not be legislated away by a ruling body.
Why was Hamilton never president?  
Steve L : 7/28/2016 11:29 am : link
?
RE: Obviously a great man getting alot of attention now  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 11:29 am : link
In comment 13048280 WideRight said:
Quote:
One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?


It was John Jay who introduced the idea.
RE: Obviously a great man getting alot of attention now  
PeterinAtlanta : 7/28/2016 11:32 am : link
In comment 13048280 WideRight said:
Quote:
One really curious question regarding the constitution and eligibility for President. Someone came up with the requirement that a President of the US must be born in the US. Who did that and why? It seems to me that the person who was most affected by that at that time was Hamilton. Is there a story there? Did Jefferson put that in?


Not true. You had to be natural born or a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. The clause had no impact on Hamilton because he was a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.
RE: Why was Hamilton never president?  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 11:32 am : link
In comment 13048294 Steve L said:
Quote:
?


Because he was born in the Caribbean.
RE: Why was Hamilton never president?  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:34 am : link
In comment 13048294 Steve L said:
Quote:
?


He was very unpopular due to being a Federalist, the whisky excise tax and he was born a bastard. He was also being blackmailed for boning a married woman. Jefferson paid newspapers to spread lies about him.
RE: RE: Why was Hamilton never president?  
PeterinAtlanta : 7/28/2016 11:35 am : link
In comment 13048302 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13048294 Steve L said:


Quote:


?



Because he was born in the Caribbean.


His place of birth had nothing to do with it.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/28/2016 11:35 am : link
Hamilton was eligible for the Presidency - but he cheated on his wife and it was a bit of scandal, sort of ruining his career.

He was also divisive at the time.
From Wikipedia  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:37 am : link
Constitutional Convention[edit]

The Constitution does not explain the meaning of "natural born".[26] On June 18, 1787, Alexander Hamilton submitted to the Convention a sketch of a plan of government.[27] The sketch provided for an executive "Governour" but had no eligibility requirements.[28] At the close of the Convention, Hamilton conveyed a paper to James Madison he said delineated the Constitution that he wished had been proposed by the Convention; he had stated its principles during the deliberations. Max Farrand wrote that it "...was not submitted to the Convention and has no further value than attaches to the personal opinions of Hamilton."[29] Article IX, section 1 of Hamilton's draft constitution provided: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States."[30]

On July 25, 1787, John Jay wrote to George Washington, presiding officer of the Convention:

Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government, and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.[32]

While the Committee of Detail originally proposed that the President must be merely a citizen, as well as a resident for 21 years, the Committee of Eleven changed "citizen" to "natural born citizen", and the residency requirement to 14 years, without recorded explanation after receiving Jay's letter. The Convention accepted the change without further recorded debate.[33]
....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/28/2016 11:38 am : link
AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month.
I will take nothing away from Washington  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:39 am : link
but many underrate the impact Hamilton made. Washington didn't do anything without consulting Hamilton.
RE: ....  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:41 am : link
In comment 13048317 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month.


Thanks. I'm reading Founding Brothers again and I'll put that on the list.
I stand corrected  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 11:41 am : link
In any case, blaming Jefferson for his unpopularity is overstating things. His feud with Adams damaged the Federalist party and sowed the seeds of its demise, which certainly contributed to his unpopularity among those who should have been his political allies.
I'm about a third of the way  
Gene : 7/28/2016 11:44 am : link
through "James Madison: A life reconsidered". Highly recommended.

I've been spending all summer reading various presidential biographies and if there's one thing that caught my attention, it's that nothing has changed in 240 years. Nothing.

I'm in the middle of the Chernow  
lugnut : 7/28/2016 11:45 am : link
bio of Hamilton right now. And, yeah, Hamilton was pretty damn amazing. For intellectual power and breadth of mind, I think he's "the man."

Something about Jefferson has always rubbed me the wrong way. A LOT of our Founding Fathers owned slaves, but something about Jefferson has always stuck out. Maybe the whole Sally Hemings thing. And I thought I read somewhere that Jeff treated his slaves badly (of course, "treating slaves well" is an oxymoron). Also, he wrote something like, "Nothing is more clear than that these people should be free..." Just, not while he could use them and make money offm them and live large on them, I guess.

Chernow's bio of Washington is fantastic. You really walk away from it saying, "Yup, he's the father of the country." He was less about brilliance than resoluteness, gravitas, and self-sacrifice. Mount Vernon went to shit while he was away for years at a time fighting, but he refused to be paid. Stayed with the troops in the field at a time when generals did not do that. Freed his slaves when he died (or set it up so they'd be freed after Martha died).

Interesting fact/thought: Washington was childless (he adopted Martha's as his own). What if he'd had a son? How great would the public cry have been to institute his son as successor? There was a wide streak of monarchism alive even after the Revolution. Related, Washington stepped down from the presidency of his own accord -- key as a precedent for democratic elections, peaceful/stable change of admins and parties. Again, Washington was just great.
RE: RE: ....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/28/2016 11:45 am : link
In comment 13048321 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13048317 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


AP, I recommend reading Chernow's Washington bio as well. Just got done with it last month.



Thanks. I'm reading Founding Brothers again and I'll put that on the list.


I'm assuming that's worth a read since you're reading it a second time?
not arguing that he should be ranked above Washington or Hamilton,  
Del Shofner : 7/28/2016 11:48 am : link
but Ben Franklin was a pretty amazing guy, and if I had to go back and live one of the Founding Fathers' lives, I think I'd choose Franklin.
Jefferson worked very hard behind the scenes to discredit him  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:48 am : link
Very underhanded stuff. Paying newspapers to print lies about Hamilton secretly wanting to Brit as president, making $1000s off government bonds, etc.

The bottom line is Jefferson's plan would have led to disaster and he blamed Hamilton for passing the constitution.
......  
BrettNYG10 : 7/28/2016 11:48 am : link
Washington's history as a businessman made him susceptible to Hamilton's arguments about the financial system. He deserves credit for balancing the egos in his Cabinet.

And prior to reading up on him, I didn't appreciate the profound impact Washington stepping down really had at the time.
Founding Fathers is very good  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:49 am : link
a different approach and an easy read.
Del  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:51 am : link
I think he got the most action, especially while in Paris!
RE: Del  
Del Shofner : 7/28/2016 11:52 am : link
In comment 13048344 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I think he got the most action, especially while in Paris!


lol, great minds ...
How to you have 103 duels ...  
Csonka : 7/28/2016 11:55 am : link
and only kill one man? What the heck were they shooting? And what's up with his wife that he has to duel to defend her honor every weekend?

As for GW not having kids ... what a shame. There are so many assholes in this country who felt the need to over populate the world with their weak seed. We need descendants of Washington ... and Einstein.
After the duel  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 11:58 am : link
Hamilton waived his army pension, bounty lands, etc. and his family was basically broke. Hamilton's friends set up a fund for his family. It was kept secret by the Bank of NY until 1937.
I'm a fan of Sam Adams  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 11:59 am : link
he doesn't get as much acclaim as some other FF, but everything I read points to him being as influential in our independence as almost anyone.

hard to find credible sources though from almost 250 years ago. A lot of what I read, I'll read something else that contradicts the other source or calls it exaggerated. Anything not written and saved becomes questionable (and even some of the written stuff is biased). And there is a lot of questionable historical accounts from the revolutionary war era.
Jefferson is a complex figure...  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:00 pm : link
....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.
RE: Jefferson worked very hard behind the scenes to discredit him  
Uncle Frank : 7/28/2016 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13048336 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Very underhanded stuff. Paying newspapers to print lies about Hamilton secretly wanting to Brit as president, making $1000s off government bonds, etc.

The bottom line is Jefferson's plan would have led to disaster and he blamed Hamilton for passing the constitution.


Agree with your points. Hamilton was by far the best founding father. The musical is a must see as well.
As for the others (Jefferson, Washington, Madison etc..). They were racist slave owning hypocrites. It's very funny we see the wacky libertarian types go on about their pro-freedumbs while they worship those racists. My guess is we see them erased from the history books in the next 50 years and replaced by real heroes like MLK, FDR, Hamilton etc...
each side, Federalist and Republican alike, had their own newspapers  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:03 pm : link
And both sides printed the most outrageous of lies about the other. People today generally don't grasp just how vicious politics of the early republic was.
The idea of dueling being legal - even in 1804 - seems crazy  
Ralph.C : 7/28/2016 12:03 pm : link
Hamilton was the sitting vice president and Burr the former secretary of the treasury. Can you imagine that today?

CNN BREAKING NEWS: CNN has learned that Secretary of the Treasury Jack Lew has shot and mortally wounded Vice President Joseph Biden during a duel in Weehawken New Jersey earlier today. Shocking video taken by Lew's second on his IPhone shows Biden being too slow to trigger before being struck in the chest by Lew's fire. Biden has been rowed across the Hudson to a local residence where he is not expected to survive.

The cause of the rift between the two men seemed to arise from Lew believing his daughter's honor had been befouled when Biden touched her inappropriately as they posed for a photo. Lew approached Biden immediately after seeing the photograph and proceeded to swipe him across the face with a leather glove. The duel was arranged shortly thereafter.
uh oh, Dave forgot to take his lithium again!  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:03 pm : link
.
After reading John Adams autobiography  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 12:05 pm : link
I thought he was the greatest man who ever lived. Then I read about Jefferson, Franklin, etc and had the same opinion. They were all great while having flaws.

I agree with Greg, you can't judge them based on today's standards.
RE: Jefferson is a complex figure...  
Uncle Frank : 7/28/2016 12:06 pm : link
In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.


LOL "a benevolent master"? He was a racist scumbag. He wanted rights (only negative rights mind you) only for white males. We need kids to look up to the Hamiltons and FDRs. Not white-supremacist!
James Monroe...the Unsung Founding Father.  
Klaatu : 7/28/2016 12:07 pm : link
Rarely mentioned with the likes of Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, etc., but a remarkable statesmen in his own right, and the only Presidential candidate other than Washington to run for re-election unopposed.
The vast majority of duels  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 12:07 pm : link
didn't result in death. Each guy would intentionally miss, they would go have a beer and discuss the issues. Hamilton never intended to kill Burr, who was an asshole despised by almost everyone.
RE: RE: Jefferson is a complex figure...  
pjcas18 : 7/28/2016 12:10 pm : link
In comment 13048379 Uncle Frank said:
Quote:
In comment 13048362 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


....and his beliefs on slavery were complex as well. Reducing him to good or bad based in 21st century hindsight is a mistake. We could write an entire book here on Jefferson and slavery - he was by most accounts a fairly benevolent master by the standards of the time, and he repeatedly wrote of slavery as a wicked institution. As governor of Virginia he led a successful effort to stop the importation of slaves, and later did the same as president. He also publicly advocated gradual emancipation. On the other hand, unlike many of the Founders he very rarely freed his own slaves and he certainly didn't view blacks as being intellectually equal to whites. For now, it's enough to say that he often had enlightened ideals that, despite the conflicted feelings he seems to have had, did not often translate into taking action to end slavery.



LOL "a benevolent master"? He was a racist scumbag. He wanted rights (only negative rights mind you) only for white males. We need kids to look up to the Hamiltons and FDRs. Not white-supremacist!


MLK was anti-homosexual, at a time when practically everyone was anti-homosexual. Why is he a hero, but not someone before him that was racist, when everyone was racist.

If you apply that standard there is really no one suitable.

I'm not saying who should or shouldn't be a role model or given hero status, but your criteria seems selective.

Burr still wasn't as cold blooded as Jackson  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:12 pm : link
Burr and Hamilton shot at the same time - Hamilton to miss, Burr to kill. Jackson, on the other hand, figured he couldn't outdraw Dickinson so he let Dickinson shoot first. Took a bullet and then he took careful aim and coldly gunned down Dickinson, who by the rules of dueling was forced to stand there until Jackson shot.
pj  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:13 pm : link
and, of course, FDR imprisoned American citizens during WWII simply due to their heritage. In any case, why waste your breath on a mentally ill person?
James A Garfield and  
BCD : 7/28/2016 12:17 pm : link
Chester A Arthur.....to great founders...they love their women and whiskey and would make great BBI members of honor.
Regardless  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 12:18 pm : link
Those guys had some massive balls. I can't imagine standing there like that.

I also didn't know until I read the book, his oldest son died in a duel 2 years earlier.
um  
Greg from LI : 7/28/2016 12:20 pm : link
What did Garfield and Arthur found? Hell, Garfield was only president for six months.
He was eligible to be President because  
buford : 7/28/2016 12:23 pm : link
anyone who was a citizen in 1787 when the Constitution was adopted was eligible to be President. He was a US citizen at that time.
BTW  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 12:48 pm : link
MLK was a Braves fan.

buford, I see you're all over it as usual.
RE: RE: RE: Jefferson is a complex figure...  
njm : 7/28/2016 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13048386 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


MLK was anti-homosexual, at a time when practically everyone was anti-homosexual. Why is he a hero, but not someone before him that was racist, when everyone was racist.

If you apply that standard there is really no one suitable.

I'm not saying who should or shouldn't be a role model or given hero status, but your criteria seems selective.


Eliminate everyone who EVER opposed gay marriage and we may need a Constitutional amendment to lower the minimum age you have to be to be President.
Njm  
AP in Halfmoon : 7/28/2016 1:12 pm : link
The point. You missed it
RE: How to you have 103 duels ...  
BMac : 7/28/2016 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13048355 Csonka said:
Quote:
and only kill one man? What the heck were they shooting? And what's up with his wife that he has to duel to defend her honor every weekend?

As for GW not having kids ... what a shame. There are so many assholes in this country who felt the need to over populate the world with their weak seed. We need descendants of Washington ... and Einstein.


And Hulk Hogan!
Benedict Arnold has to be near the top too  
Mason : 7/28/2016 3:28 pm : link
One of the United States greatest generals and heroes. He carried Washington ass during the Revolutionary war. And he was absolutely right about Canadians.

Washington screwed him. SMH

Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner