Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
I like the 16' picks better than the 15' picks. Both Flowers and Collins were thrown into the fire and got burnt. Hopefully that experience pays dividends and they play up to their potential in year 2.
RE: Are the first two picks of a draft considered building blocks?
You can see the difference picking in or near the top half rather than in thecbottom third. He's also done a good job FA wise in that same time frame. This team is pretty close. If we can get reasonable performances at FS and the OL as a whole we are going to be really competitive.
Pugh (19th) overdraft but a good player
Hankins (49th) Good value
Beckham (12th) Great pick
Richburg (43rd) very good pick
Flowers (9th) Too soon to grade
Collins (33rd) Too soon to grade
Apple (10th) too soon to grade
Sheppard (40th) Looks promising but he has not taken a snap yet
Agreed. I think Flowers and Collins will improve a lot from year one to year two and I'm in love with the Shepard pick. I'm just beginning to warm up to the Eli Apple pick. Hopefully he will contribute this year and be ready to really take the reins as a starting CB next year. This is a very solid group to build off. Though a lot depends on Flowers and Apple's development, hopefully those two develop quickly for us.
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
That was a rough year for high drafted lineman. Larry Warford, Travis Fredrick, Justin Pugh, Kyle Long all drafted after Erick Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Lane Johnson and DJ Fluker (the latter group all went top 15, the first three were the first four picks overall)
Only 7 other CB's went top 10 like Eli Apple did. There was Jalen Ramsey, Justin Glibert, Dee Millner, Stephon Glimore, Morris Claiborne, Patrick Peterson, and Joe Haden.
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
That was a rough year for high drafted lineman. Larry Warford, Travis Fredrick, Justin Pugh, Kyle Long all drafted after Erick Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Lane Johnson and DJ Fluker (the latter group all went top 15, the first three were the first four picks overall)
I agree. Like i said, he's better than the busts. If he becomes a Rich Seubert that would be great but how often do you look for a Rich Seubert in Round 1?
Flowers was obviously drafted higher but you at his ceiling and it's "wow".
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
You realize that every 1st round pick can't be a HOFer, right?
I can understand his opinion on Pugh but I disagree. No Guard really 'excites' but he showed a lot of promise year 1 as a rookie tackle, I expected him to catch on a little faster and become one of the leauge's top OL after his good rookie season, but after a year at guard under his belt Pugh is my dark horse for pro bowl this season.
Well, except for 2011 and 2012. But he really needs to have greater success with his day three picks. That's where your role-players, quality depth comes from.
Regardless, this year Reese will be judged as much, if not more, by his free agent acquisitions.
Regardless, this year Reese will be judged as much, if not more, by his free agent acquisitions.
Question for you: is the bar set higher for the assessment in light of how much he shelled out in their contracts, or will their fair/good/stellar performance be enough? In other words, are the criteria that much more stringent for judging Reese in FA this year?
This and other similar threads from the last two weeks make
one thing very clear: Reese has done better when drafting from 2013 to current than he did from 2009 to 2012. The 2013 draft was serviceable at least with two starters and a backup QB that has never been forced into playing REAL game-time minutes. Safety Cooper Taylor has a final shot to stick though I believe the only way he makes the team this year is if injuries occur. I pray not, so we'll see. I give the draft a B- which isn't a bad grade. I consider C+ as "average" middle of the pack.
The 2014 draft will be the reason why we really step up this year.
#1 WR OBJ is a top 5 NFL receiver who demands double teams (umbreall) and still gets his fair share of catches.
#2 OC Richburg is a top 3 NFL center based on some reports I've read. He will make the probowl this year and be the centerpiece of the OL.
#3 DT Bromley is on the PUP after some minor surgery but I expect when he comes back he'll be fine as the #3 DT who comes off the bench. I'd be surprised if he fell to #4 DT behind say Nix or anyone else. He was raw coming out of college but is a hard worker and he clearly wants to be great. So will he step up and show us he could be a starter in this league? He isn't DT Hankins but can he "hold the fort" as a starter? Only time will tell...I'm on his side here.
#4 RB A. Williams looked decent as a rookie in some spots but sucked last year with all but 2.8 ypc when the rest of the team was 4.0 or better! Some say he wasn't used right, that he does better behind a true lead blocker. So will new FB Johnson play that role or does FB incumbent Nikita Whitlock show enough improvement in camp to be the true short yardage lead blocker? I'm not sure yet, but I must admit until proven otherwise I'm not sold on Williams becoming a bonafide starting caliber RB in the NFL. I hope I'm wrong.
#5 S N. Behre makes the team and becomes the backup to L. Collins; the dime safety; and possibly even the backup to D. Thompson. He is better closer to the LOS as he hits like a freight train but can likely handle centerfielder "well enough" if called upon.
#6 LB D. Kennard. Health, that is his issue. With this DL in front of him, if he can stay healthy he honestly has a shot at 8+ sacks and top run defender accolades. Just shy of probowl.
#7 S / CB B. Jackson could "surprise" and challenge for FS duties and backup slot CB duties. His health is an issue as he is coming off an ACL. Not sure what happens here but the fact that he looked good in last year's camp makes me think he has a shot at backing up D. Thompson, the rookie.
So 2014 looks like a superb draft that will anchor the team in 2016 and especially in 2017 should the later round picks truly develop. Health has kept them back.
2015 has potential as does 2016 but it is too early to tell. So long as LT E. Flowers, S L. Collins, CB Eli Apple, WR Shepard and S D. Thompson all produce and improve as expected we are in great shape for the future.
Clearly, Reese's drafts of 2014 to 2016 seem to be much improved. If the UFA's stay healthy and produce along with catching "magic" with a UDFA or two, particularly OC Brett Jones and a WR as we could use the talent.
In comment 13050974 Ira said:
Quote:
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
I like the 16' picks better than the 15' picks. Both Flowers and Collins were thrown into the fire and got burnt. Hopefully that experience pays dividends and they play up to their potential in year 2.
I disagree even if the '16 picks turn out to be stellar.
Why?
Because this team needed an attitude adjustment that guys like the '14 and '15 draft picks bring in spades...
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
Giants safeties need to be able to play both spots and there are not successful safeties in todays game who can't cover.
My understanding is that L. Collins, coming out of Alabama, didn't play much "centerfield" coverage safety, much man to man coverage and such. He was inexperienced and young. He learned "on the job" more than the team likely intended when they moved up to get him in round 2.
I look for SS L. Collins to be utilized more to his strengths "Line of scrimmage, run stopper, keep the guy in front of him to a short pass reception with fine open field tackling" and less back-pedaling. But he'll be better at centerfieldiing this year than last if only because of experience. He is fast enough.
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
Giants safeties need to be able to play both spots and there are not successful safeties in todays game who can't cover.
My understanding is that L. Collins, coming out of Alabama, didn't play much "centerfield" coverage safety, much man to man coverage and such. He was inexperienced and young. He learned "on the job" more than the team likely intended when they moved up to get him in round 2.
I look for SS L. Collins to be utilized more to his strengths "Line of scrimmage, run stopper, keep the guy in front of him to a short pass reception with fine open field tackling" and less back-pedaling. But he'll be better at centerfieldiing this year than last if only because of experience. He is fast enough.
No one wants him to cover the opponents top wide out but he has to be able to hold his own against receivers, he is already good in run support, and he should be good at taking away the opponents top TE option. He has to prove he can at the very least cover TE's and RB's.
Regardless, this year Reese will be judged as much, if not more, by his free agent acquisitions.
Question for you: is the bar set higher for the assessment in light of how much he shelled out in their contracts, or will their fair/good/stellar performance be enough? In other words, are the criteria that much more stringent for judging Reese in FA this year?
Good question.
For me, good to great performance will be enough. For some, it will never be enough to justify what was spent.
I said from the get-go, desperate times call for desperate measures, and when you field a historically bad defense and it's putting your job on the line, the times couldn't be more desperate for Reese & Co. Thankfully (and I honestly don't know if it was by luck or design) the Giants had the resources to make major investments to upgrade their defense. They got the best two-way DE on the market, they added a big, run-stuffing DT, and they got a durable and dynamic CB. In addition, they re-signed JPP and added a couple of journeyman LBs. With the exception of Keenan Robinson, they avoided signing oft-injured or over-the-hill veterans.
Did they overpay? Perhaps, but that's the nature of free agency in today's NFL. Besides, what was the alternative? Not spending the money to upgrade the defense? Was Jerry Reese supposed to take William Devane's advice and buy gold? He certainly wasn't going to fix a broken defense with six measly draft picks (and as it is he used three of them on defense). I don't think the Giants had any choice but to spend big in free agency this year. They had the need and they had the money. Time will tell if it was money well spent.
Internally the past couple of years, the athlete drive is clearly over and we've moved towards football players. Reese rolled the dice on several athletic prospects and always will but he seems to be focusing more on players with character than just pure triangle number guys. Richburg, Flowers, Collins, Darian Thompson, Paul Perkins, Hankins, Apple are all football players with AA, but first and foremost all of them are players and not just athletes.
Reese has always been a good talent evaluator, maybe he got away from the eyes on target evaluating but it appears he's back in the mix which is what we desperately needed. I like where the team is headed after 3 years of WTF we are doing in terms of FA and team building, the arrow is up and I don't expect it to point down anytime soon.
Is a building block until they aren't on the roster by Jerry Reese standards. Haven't changed how they approach the draft, simply have been drafting higher because of losing seasons. There are positions across the board that need more talent and the team has been in a better position to get them. You know when a team overpays a player? When that player under-achieves and another player that was available at the time does better. Good example would be if JPP has four sacks this year and Ayers Jr. gets 16.
Internally the past couple of years, the athlete drive is clearly over and we've moved towards football players. Reese rolled the dice on several athletic prospects and always will but he seems to be focusing more on players with character than just pure triangle number guys. Richburg, Flowers, Collins, Darian Thompson, Paul Perkins, Hankins, Apple are all football players with AA, but first and foremost all of them are players and not just athletes.
Reese has always been a good talent evaluator, maybe he got away from the eyes on target evaluating but it appears he's back in the mix which is what we desperately needed. I like where the team is headed after 3 years of WTF we are doing in terms of FA and team building, the arrow is up and I don't expect it to point down anytime soon.
That's too fucking positive for me..How ya doin' post-op?
Is a building block until they aren't on the roster by Jerry Reese standards. Haven't changed how they approach the draft, simply have been drafting higher because of losing seasons. There are positions across the board that need more talent and the team has been in a better position to get them. You know when a team overpays a player? When that player under-achieves and another player that was available at the time does better. Good example would be if JPP has four sacks this year and Ayers Jr. gets 16.
Every team has over-paid for "someone(s)" - injuries are the big factor. A guy like Ayers I'd like to have kept over say DE Wynn because he is versatile and can rush the passer BUT you also don't want to over-pay for an older guy who has been hurt. We did that with LB J. Beason and got nothing production wise from him after he was paid.
Reese is a good talent evaluator who just made later rounder "reaches" and had "misses / mistakes" that cost him especially from 2009 to 2013. I really believe he learned from those mistakes and the 2014 to 2016 drafts are above average and will SHOW WELL this year and next to propel us to the playoffs.
I like the 16' picks better than the 15' picks. Both Flowers and Collins were thrown into the fire and got burnt. Hopefully that experience pays dividends and they play up to their potential in year 2.
Well when your first two picks are David Wilson and Rueben Randle... Hard to build anything.
Quote:
how low are your expectations...
Well when your first two picks are David Wilson and Rueben Randle... Hard to build anything.
fair enough...
Given the fact he was playing a position he had never played before, the kid actually did better than expected.
Pugh (19th) overdraft but a good player
Hankins (49th) Good value
Beckham (12th) Great pick
Richburg (43rd) very good pick
Flowers (9th) Too soon to grade
Collins (33rd) Too soon to grade
Apple (10th) too soon to grade
Sheppard (40th) Looks promising but he has not taken a snap yet
Agreed. I think Flowers and Collins will improve a lot from year one to year two and I'm in love with the Shepard pick. I'm just beginning to warm up to the Eli Apple pick. Hopefully he will contribute this year and be ready to really take the reins as a starting CB next year. This is a very solid group to build off. Though a lot depends on Flowers and Apple's development, hopefully those two develop quickly for us.
That was a rough year for high drafted lineman. Larry Warford, Travis Fredrick, Justin Pugh, Kyle Long all drafted after Erick Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Lane Johnson and DJ Fluker (the latter group all went top 15, the first three were the first four picks overall)
Too bad his later rounds (3 on) have sucked.
Quote:
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
That was a rough year for high drafted lineman. Larry Warford, Travis Fredrick, Justin Pugh, Kyle Long all drafted after Erick Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Lane Johnson and DJ Fluker (the latter group all went top 15, the first three were the first four picks overall)
I agree. Like i said, he's better than the busts. If he becomes a Rich Seubert that would be great but how often do you look for a Rich Seubert in Round 1?
Flowers was obviously drafted higher but you at his ceiling and it's "wow".
Big year for all the names mentioned. We will see
You realize that every 1st round pick can't be a HOFer, right?
Quote:
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
You realize that every 1st round pick can't be a HOFer, right?
I can understand his opinion on Pugh but I disagree. No Guard really 'excites' but he showed a lot of promise year 1 as a rookie tackle, I expected him to catch on a little faster and become one of the leauge's top OL after his good rookie season, but after a year at guard under his belt Pugh is my dark horse for pro bowl this season.
Quote:
has never excited me. He's much better than those linemen chosen before him who were busts yet i hope for more from first round selections.
You realize that every 1st round pick can't be a HOFer, right?
Thanks Mr. Wizard.
Regardless, this year Reese will be judged as much, if not more, by his free agent acquisitions.
Jimmy Googs : 8:49 am : link : reply
how low are your expectations...
if they aren't, it must be the 3rd round and later that we build a team on....
Question for you: is the bar set higher for the assessment in light of how much he shelled out in their contracts, or will their fair/good/stellar performance be enough? In other words, are the criteria that much more stringent for judging Reese in FA this year?
The 2014 draft will be the reason why we really step up this year.
#1 WR OBJ is a top 5 NFL receiver who demands double teams (umbreall) and still gets his fair share of catches.
#2 OC Richburg is a top 3 NFL center based on some reports I've read. He will make the probowl this year and be the centerpiece of the OL.
#3 DT Bromley is on the PUP after some minor surgery but I expect when he comes back he'll be fine as the #3 DT who comes off the bench. I'd be surprised if he fell to #4 DT behind say Nix or anyone else. He was raw coming out of college but is a hard worker and he clearly wants to be great. So will he step up and show us he could be a starter in this league? He isn't DT Hankins but can he "hold the fort" as a starter? Only time will tell...I'm on his side here.
#4 RB A. Williams looked decent as a rookie in some spots but sucked last year with all but 2.8 ypc when the rest of the team was 4.0 or better! Some say he wasn't used right, that he does better behind a true lead blocker. So will new FB Johnson play that role or does FB incumbent Nikita Whitlock show enough improvement in camp to be the true short yardage lead blocker? I'm not sure yet, but I must admit until proven otherwise I'm not sold on Williams becoming a bonafide starting caliber RB in the NFL. I hope I'm wrong.
#5 S N. Behre makes the team and becomes the backup to L. Collins; the dime safety; and possibly even the backup to D. Thompson. He is better closer to the LOS as he hits like a freight train but can likely handle centerfielder "well enough" if called upon.
#6 LB D. Kennard. Health, that is his issue. With this DL in front of him, if he can stay healthy he honestly has a shot at 8+ sacks and top run defender accolades. Just shy of probowl.
#7 S / CB B. Jackson could "surprise" and challenge for FS duties and backup slot CB duties. His health is an issue as he is coming off an ACL. Not sure what happens here but the fact that he looked good in last year's camp makes me think he has a shot at backing up D. Thompson, the rookie.
So 2014 looks like a superb draft that will anchor the team in 2016 and especially in 2017 should the later round picks truly develop. Health has kept them back.
2015 has potential as does 2016 but it is too early to tell. So long as LT E. Flowers, S L. Collins, CB Eli Apple, WR Shepard and S D. Thompson all produce and improve as expected we are in great shape for the future.
Clearly, Reese's drafts of 2014 to 2016 seem to be much improved. If the UFA's stay healthy and produce along with catching "magic" with a UDFA or two, particularly OC Brett Jones and a WR as we could use the talent.
Go Giants
Quote:
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
I like the 16' picks better than the 15' picks. Both Flowers and Collins were thrown into the fire and got burnt. Hopefully that experience pays dividends and they play up to their potential in year 2.
I disagree even if the '16 picks turn out to be stellar.
Why?
Because this team needed an attitude adjustment that guys like the '14 and '15 draft picks bring in spades...
Giants safeties need to be able to play both spots and there are not successful safeties in todays game who can't cover.
Quote:
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
Giants safeties need to be able to play both spots and there are not successful safeties in todays game who can't cover.
I look for SS L. Collins to be utilized more to his strengths "Line of scrimmage, run stopper, keep the guy in front of him to a short pass reception with fine open field tackling" and less back-pedaling. But he'll be better at centerfieldiing this year than last if only because of experience. He is fast enough.
Quote:
In comment 13050974 Ira said:
Quote:
Collins had some difficulty, but he was a rookie starting in the wrong position because we had no one else for center field.
Giants safeties need to be able to play both spots and there are not successful safeties in todays game who can't cover.
My understanding is that L. Collins, coming out of Alabama, didn't play much "centerfield" coverage safety, much man to man coverage and such. He was inexperienced and young. He learned "on the job" more than the team likely intended when they moved up to get him in round 2.
I look for SS L. Collins to be utilized more to his strengths "Line of scrimmage, run stopper, keep the guy in front of him to a short pass reception with fine open field tackling" and less back-pedaling. But he'll be better at centerfieldiing this year than last if only because of experience. He is fast enough.
No one wants him to cover the opponents top wide out but he has to be able to hold his own against receivers, he is already good in run support, and he should be good at taking away the opponents top TE option. He has to prove he can at the very least cover TE's and RB's.
Question for you: is the bar set higher for the assessment in light of how much he shelled out in their contracts, or will their fair/good/stellar performance be enough? In other words, are the criteria that much more stringent for judging Reese in FA this year?
Good question.
For me, good to great performance will be enough. For some, it will never be enough to justify what was spent.
I said from the get-go, desperate times call for desperate measures, and when you field a historically bad defense and it's putting your job on the line, the times couldn't be more desperate for Reese & Co. Thankfully (and I honestly don't know if it was by luck or design) the Giants had the resources to make major investments to upgrade their defense. They got the best two-way DE on the market, they added a big, run-stuffing DT, and they got a durable and dynamic CB. In addition, they re-signed JPP and added a couple of journeyman LBs. With the exception of Keenan Robinson, they avoided signing oft-injured or over-the-hill veterans.
Did they overpay? Perhaps, but that's the nature of free agency in today's NFL. Besides, what was the alternative? Not spending the money to upgrade the defense? Was Jerry Reese supposed to take William Devane's advice and buy gold? He certainly wasn't going to fix a broken defense with six measly draft picks (and as it is he used three of them on defense). I don't think the Giants had any choice but to spend big in free agency this year. They had the need and they had the money. Time will tell if it was money well spent.
Reese has always been a good talent evaluator, maybe he got away from the eyes on target evaluating but it appears he's back in the mix which is what we desperately needed. I like where the team is headed after 3 years of WTF we are doing in terms of FA and team building, the arrow is up and I don't expect it to point down anytime soon.
Reese has always been a good talent evaluator, maybe he got away from the eyes on target evaluating but it appears he's back in the mix which is what we desperately needed. I like where the team is headed after 3 years of WTF we are doing in terms of FA and team building, the arrow is up and I don't expect it to point down anytime soon.
That's too fucking positive for me..How ya doin' post-op?
Reese is a good talent evaluator who just made later rounder "reaches" and had "misses / mistakes" that cost him especially from 2009 to 2013. I really believe he learned from those mistakes and the 2014 to 2016 drafts are above average and will SHOW WELL this year and next to propel us to the playoffs.