By now I hope the meltdown on him being drafted at 10, over the widely more highly regarded Vernon Hargreaves III, has subsided. Compared to VHIII, Apple has length, size, and speed you can't teach. And he's got a good head on his shoulders and looks to be a good locker room guy.
See "One on One" at Giants.com for some social media with him and FS Darian Thompson. (It seems Ben MacAdoo's strategy for getting the attention of the "millennials" has infected the entire organization.)
Watching tape of Apple in camp 3 things stand out to even a novice of watching DBs like myself. He has great speed and fluid hips and can turn and run with anyone once beaten on a route so that his opponent doesn't gain extra separation by running away from him...
But why the hell doesn't he turn his head to locate the ball as soon as the WR he's covering does? I don't get it. I played HS Mike and it was among the first lessons in playing man to man coverage (Apple's forte).
You get beat, you chase full speed, and when the receiver turns his head to locate the ball you turn yours. This is exactly what Richard Sherman does which makes him play like a "defensive WR."
There are 2-3 plays by Apple from Saturday, also up on video at Giants.com, that show Apple running beautifully stride for stride with his opponent, but not once does he turn his head to locate the ball when the WR does.
Again, I was taught this in HS, playing LB. It's not taught anymore?
Thompson answers "probably getting my 19th interception and breaking the Mountain West [AC] record."
"Say what? Nineteen??!!!"
The issue was - and still is - about the monumental mistake of not drafting Tunsil. The man unexpectedly slid to us, we were frozen by the mantra "be careful, no more risks" and we sat there.
We drafted to a redundancy, and away from the tacxkle position where there was critical need. The best player (along with Jalen Rampsey) fell and we didn't move - because we had no plan for him and thought he'd be gone.
So we not only had BPA we had greatest need.
Apple is a fine prospect, but a project and arguably not a top ten player. As if to emphasize that the one significant FA signing since the early pre-season work-outs is a cornerback.
Best Player Available and Position of critical need fell perfectly into a team that's built around a QB that is expected to decline, a brilliant WR at the top of his game and, in effect, is the quintessential example of "win now."
Instead we drafted a "project" into a position of redundancy and emphasized that with a FA signing.
Something strange happened on draft day and I for one think this team is so strong that we can overcome it.
But think of how this team would look right now with Tunsil at tackle and Newsome/Hart as bench strength.
I agree 100% with grizz, Tunsil was the more talented pick. On that note, I hope I'm eating crow in 2 years.
Yup. The signing of Hall (aside his ability to specifically play the slot) and the mix of vets and youngsters throughout the roster points to almost a specific strategy of MacAdoo's to create a milieu in which the more experienced players can act as mentors for the kids. But that's a subject worthy of another thread.
Will Allen had the same problem.
The issue was - and still is - about the monumental mistake of not drafting Tunsil. The man unexpectedly slid to us, we were frozen by the mantra "be careful, no more risks" and we sat there.
We drafted to a redundancy, and away from the tacxkle position where there was critical need. The best player (along with Jalen Rampsey) fell and we didn't move - because we had no plan for him and thought he'd be gone.
So we not only had BPA we had greatest need.
Apple is a fine prospect, but a project and arguably not a top ten player. As if to emphasize that the one significant FA signing since the early pre-season work-outs is a cornerback.
Best Player Available and Position of critical need fell perfectly into a team that's built around a QB that is expected to decline, a brilliant WR at the top of his game and, in effect, is the quintessential example of "win now."
Instead we drafted a "project" into a position of redundancy and emphasized that with a FA signing.
Something strange happened on draft day and I for one think this team is so strong that we can overcome it.
But think of how this team would look right now with Tunsil at tackle and Newsome/Hart as bench strength.
Couldn't disagree with you more. We have already shown that we play top 10 offense with Newhouse at RT. We have not however shown that we can survive on defense when one of our top corners is down.
We needed as mush depth as possible at CB. Which at the moment we look like we have some good depth. That could certainly change, but we won't be one player away from being terrible.
Tunsil is complete zero. I know a higher up in the USC athletic department that told me about how he was telling college teams he would essentially go to the highest bidder/whoever offered the best package of illegal stuff. Then You get this video of him getting high as fuck the day of the draft. The guy is going to get suspended in the NFL.
grizz, you are a doofus, and in the spirit of redundancy, let me say that you're a doofus, too. The Giants had the worst (or second worst) pass defense in the league last year, and several steps had to be taken to correct that, including bolstering their pass-rush, and upgrading the talent in their defensive backfield.
You might not recall the game where Eli threw six TD passes and the Giants still lost, but my guess is that Reese & Co. did, hence the jettisoning of the oft-injured Prince Amukamara and the signing of the more durable (and more dynamic) Janoris Jenkins, plus the interest in a few other UFA CBs like Jerraud Powers and Leon Hall, as well as the investment of a top-ten pick in a top-tier CB like Eli Apple.
In today's NFL, where defenses are in sub-packages two thirds of the time, you need more than two starting-caliber CBs. You need three at a minimum, as your slot CB is just as much a starter as your two outside CBs, and so far we've seen the Giants use four in their dime package. If you're lucky enough (or smart enough) you'll have five or six good quality CBs on your roster, just in case the injury bug comes calling.
Finally, the draft is not about filling immediate needs, no matter how much you're in a "win-now" mode. It's always about the future, and the future for Eli Apple looks pretty bright to me. As much as I like DRC, he is getting up there in age, and he does seem to get nicked up from time to time. I don't think the Giants are in any kind of rush to get rid of him, but I do wonder if he'll be on the team for the length of his contract. When the time comes to make a tough decision, having a "polished" Apple in the fold may make that decision a little easier.
For a tall guy he seems to move with ease. That means he has a low center of gravity. Maybe he can play even lower than he does and that would help with the grabbing.
My biggest thing for him would be his eye amd his feel. I don't think his eyes are in the right spot. If he is looking up high then WRs are going to give him the wrong information and that is another reason he grabs. The other thing wpuld he his feel. His hands are high from the initial jam. After that he has to get his hands down to the hip area and thigh area. This is where he will get his feel. It is a lot harder to grab when your hands are around a players hips than when they are up high on the jersey. You will feel the players hips sink when they are trying to cut giving you that feel especially if you think you are in good position and look back at the QB.
He is getting every better every practice which is very encouraging and I agree with what Spags is doing in keeping him at one position on defense for now. Let him master that before moving him around.
What about this situation? Jenkins misses time. Who is playing his spot. I would assume DRC would and Apple wpuld stay at the other corner. The issue is that DRC hasn't really practiced on that side of the field to my knowledge. I don't think it is that big of a deal but could be an adjustment. I know DRC moved around last year so I am sure it would be fine. But it is still something to think about.
Going back to Eli, I want to see him in a zone coverage. All we do is hear about him in man. At best we wpuld play man 50% of the time amd that seems high. So, how is he doing the other half of the time?
That said, the Giants aren't going to draft a player with character concerns in the top 10 anyhow. I don't see how anyone who follows this team would have expected that.
Also, you only look back if you are in a dominant position. If the receiver has separation on you it is pointless to look back for the ball because if the receiver catches it then you aren't worried about playing the ball you are worried about making a TD saving tackle. You are much faster running with your head down and straight away than looking back. You dont see a player run a 40 while looking back at the starting line. Once you are in a dominant position AND you have that feel for when the ball is coming then you get your head around. I was always taught to watch the receivers eye because they would always get bigger and the offensive player would make sure the wouldn't blink. That is tough to do as well unless you are in a dominant position and have a feel for the route with your hands like I stated above. If you watch the receivers hands it is probably too late. Players like Odell do a phenomenal job of just quickly snatching the ball out of the air. If you react to their hands going up you will probbably no be fast enough.
It isn't as easy as saying get your head around. That is the last thkng you should do unless you are in a dominant position to play that ball AND know it is coming.
The old saying is in man coverage if the guy goes to the bathroom you follow him in there. If your eyes are somewhere else you will never know where the receiver is. The ball can only move downfield if one of five potential targets moves it downfield. No point in covering grass and no point in looking at the QB/ball in man coverage if you aren't with the receiver.
The issue was - and still is - about the monumental mistake of not drafting Tunsil. The man unexpectedly slid to us, we were frozen by the mantra "be careful, no more risks" and we sat there.
We drafted to a redundancy, and away from the tacxkle position where there was critical need. The best player (along with Jalen Rampsey) fell and we didn't move - because we had no plan for him and thought he'd be gone.
So we not only had BPA we had greatest need.
Apple is a fine prospect, but a project and arguably not a top ten player. As if to emphasize that the one significant FA signing since the early pre-season work-outs is a cornerback.
Best Player Available and Position of critical need fell perfectly into a team that's built around a QB that is expected to decline, a brilliant WR at the top of his game and, in effect, is the quintessential example of "win now."
Instead we drafted a "project" into a position of redundancy and emphasized that with a FA signing.
Something strange happened on draft day and I for one think this team is so strong that we can overcome it.
But think of how this team would look right now with Tunsil at tackle and Newsome/Hart as bench strength.
When we picked Eli Apple I raised an eyebrow KNOWING we needed a true LT (LT E. Flowers is a better RT, sorry...edge rushers he'll struggle with until he perfects technique and even then not sure he'll be a star) in LT L. Tunsil. But then I thought "Tunsil was 1, 2 or 3 on draft boards and mocks and now he's fallen to 10, so what is up with him?" and so forth.
Rumors come out about immaturity; drugs; lack of true hard work; and possibly some old injuries. True or not, teams passed him up and as of this minute I am liking the pick of Apple over Tunsil due to upside issues. But that is but a guess on my part. We won't know who made the right choice until the end of 2018 or even 2019.
In today's NFL you need three cornerbacks, minimum and the skillsets for an outside corner (Eli Apple) and nickel corner (L. Hall) are quite different. I think Apple will learn nickel a bit this year but at the end of the day he'll take snaps at outside CB mostly. CB L. Hall has a one year deal and this year CB Eli Apple will learn how to use his hands, turn his head when the receiver does and the calls / defensive alignments and so forth. Eli will be starting next year IF he can play slot and spell some outside at times. I consider the 3rd corner a starter. DRC isn't going anywhere next year eitheer.
Oh & if the Dolphins had the choice they were going to take Eli Apple over Tunsil. So other NFL teams felt the same way the Giants did.
I believe it was Raanan who said on Twitter yesterday or the day before that Apple's grabiness is overstated & he hasn't seen it very often in camp.
I'm already tired of the Apple is going to get tons of penalties mantra. We haven't seen him in any true game situations or seen how he is responding to coaching(other than some camp blurbs).
and Hitter .. The significant thing is the man press
and hand placement . In the NFL one wrong step can turn
into a long TD .
The Tunsil argument is silly , the guy went from a top
5 pick minimum and past the Ravens who to me has penchant
for drafting well on the O-line throw in the Gas Mask and
it was a no brainer to pass him up .
I liked Hargreaves and was sure he would be the pick from
what I saw of Apples was more of a project than a top
10 starter . I even figured Treadwell because of Size and need . But after Watching Apple you can see the talent
and if he learns to keep the holding penalties down
I think he is gonna be VG CB .
Adding Hall also tells me that they won't have to start
him right away anywhere and he can learn from some of
the best .
Lastly PLEASE STOP WITH THE TOP 10 Offense nonsense
we still have an issue in the run game I feel it will
improve but I am not sure if it will be enough .
Time will tell and who is to say we won't scoop up
another Vet .
But damn if Sherman isn't awfully good at that even from a significantly trailing position.
I have posted that a few times. The basics are the slot position really needs to know the whole defense. He needs to know run fits, blitzes, where his help is, who is playing in front of him and what their strengths/weaknesses are, all coverages, and needs to be able to match up with TEs all the way down to smaller shiftier guys like Vereen. You will have to take on blocks from TEs, WRs, FBs, and pulling linemen. You have to be able to know where all threats are in the pass game. You have to have your head on a swivel. Your reads are different. Depending on the coverage you will be asked to do many different things. Take a cover 3 for example. Your responsibility is curl to flat. People just assume that is an area you cover. Once you read pass you have to get your eyes to the chest of the number one receiver. That means the receiver closest to the sideline. Yoh will run to his chest. That means if he runs a slant you will run right underneath that. If he is running verticle your drop will be more of a 45 degree angle and deeper. Once you are running in your path you get your head back around and look for that second receiver amd QB. You want it all in the same field of vision. If you don't bust your ass out deep enough you will never be abke to see both players at the same time. Once you know what the QB and number 2 receiver are doing you can then peak one more time at the number 1 receiver to see if he ran a curl, out route or continued to run deep. If he ran a curl or out you want to play under that route discouraging that throw. You want to entice the QB to throw it shorter. If the receiver goes deep then depending on the defense and corner you can jump the shorter route.
This is just one example and you can see how the defender's head has to constantly be moving. It is much different playing inside tham outside. I have said this before and I will say it again. Playing the slot is way more challenging mentally and could be more challenging physically. It should not be looked at as your 3rd corner. In fact, it doesn't even have to be a corner. This player should not be looked at as a lesser player.
As far as a corner goes, it is the easiest position to know on the entire football field. All you really need to hear is the coverage part. You do not need to knkw run fits because you will always have outside contain to force the play back into the middle of the field. You do not need to know the blitz schemes unless you are involved. A common term for a CB blitz is cowboy. If they hear that then they go otherwise most CBs do not learn that stuff. Although the more you know the better player you will be. You never really need to have you head on a swivel. You can see all 11 guys on offense without moving your head. It makes it much easier to see route combinations from that angle.
Now, this isn't to diminish what a corner does. You are all alone on an island. You are probably going up against the best athletes in the world. You rarely have help. All eyes are on you. You could have a great day and make one mistake and that is the difference between you being a hero or you being the scapegoat. If you are jn the slot and mess up it probably will not lead to a TD.
Both positions are very unique. Both have their positives and negatives. Imo, they are all equally important. I just feel the slot position has this lesser opinion to it than an outside corner. Imo, that is not the case at all.
But damn if Sherman isn't awfully good at that even from a significantly trailing position.
It always pisses me off watching NFL games because refs automatically throw a flag if the defender didn't turn his head around? What the fuck? Where does it say that in the rule book? I am pretty sure nowhere. If the defender didn't touch the receiver but just put his hands up then that is a great play. If he turns around and isn't in position then he loses a couple of inches and speed doing so. Basically, you can only play the ball when you are in position to play the ball. You cannot assume it will be a bad throw. You have to assume every throw is perfect. I just hate the way the game is refereed because all the rules are geared toward the offense. A pass interference penalty should only be called if the receiver was interfered with meaning physically grabbing/hitting/running into the receiver which prevented him from catching the ball not because he was "face-guarding."
He reminds me of last year's #1 pick LT E. Flowers. Everyone knew when we drafted him that he'd need technique work. And he had to learn "on the job" and struggled, grading out as our worst OL and he was worst at the most critical OL position, LT. Not good for him, Eli or the offense but we survived.
CB Eli Apple will learn from 3 veteran corners this year. That is a good thing.
Quote:
Always had the speed, but was he could never turn his head in coverage. I think it's a tough habit to break. ///
Will Allen had the same problem.
To my eye, many Giants' CBs have had this shortcoming in recent years, except DRC; drives me nuts. Prince, Hosley (terrible player), their backups.
To my mind it's certainly a failure of coaching, AS TO THAT ISSUE (and assuming the CB otherwise has talent). As I recall, Collins, Haynes and CW were good at this. APierce (not a CB, famously in Supe 42, did not turn his head in the EZ on the TD).
It's fundamental awareness of the receiver's route and his head turn. Locating the ball quickly is the additional challenge.
Quote:
How about a primer on playing the slot vs. playing outside?
I have posted that a few times. The basics are the slot position really needs to know the whole defense. He needs to know run fits, blitzes, where his help is, who is playing in front of him and what their strengths/weaknesses are, all coverages, and needs to be able to match up with TEs all the way down to smaller shiftier guys like Vereen. You will have to take on blocks from TEs, WRs, FBs, and pulling linemen. You have to be able to know where all threats are in the pass game. You have to have your head on a swivel. Your reads are different. Depending on the coverage you will be asked to do many different things. Take a cover 3 for example. Your responsibility is curl to flat. People just assume that is an area you cover. Once you read pass you have to get your eyes to the chest of the number one receiver. That means the receiver closest to the sideline. Yoh will run to his chest. That means if he runs a slant you will run right underneath that. If he is running verticle your drop will be more of a 45 degree angle and deeper. Once you are running in your path you get your head back around and look for that second receiver amd QB. You want it all in the same field of vision. If you don't bust your ass out deep enough you will never be abke to see both players at the same time. Once you know what the QB and number 2 receiver are doing you can then peak one more time at the number 1 receiver to see if he ran a curl, out route or continued to run deep. If he ran a curl or out you want to play under that route discouraging that throw. You want to entice the QB to throw it shorter. If the receiver goes deep then depending on the defense and corner you can jump the shorter route.
This is just one example and you can see how the defender's head has to constantly be moving. It is much different playing inside tham outside. I have said this before and I will say it again. Playing the slot is way more challenging mentally and could be more challenging physically. It should not be looked at as your 3rd corner. In fact, it doesn't even have to be a corner. This player should not be looked at as a lesser player.
As far as a corner goes, it is the easiest position to know on the entire football field. All you really need to hear is the coverage part. You do not need to knkw run fits because you will always have outside contain to force the play back into the middle of the field. You do not need to know the blitz schemes unless you are involved. A common term for a CB blitz is cowboy. If they hear that then they go otherwise most CBs do not learn that stuff. Although the more you know the better player you will be. You never really need to have you head on a swivel. You can see all 11 guys on offense without moving your head. It makes it much easier to see route combinations from that angle.
Now, this isn't to diminish what a corner does. You are all alone on an island. You are probably going up against the best athletes in the world. You rarely have help. All eyes are on you. You could have a great day and make one mistake and that is the difference between you being a hero or you being the scapegoat. If you are jn the slot and mess up it probably will not lead to a TD.
Both positions are very unique. Both have their positives and negatives. Imo, they are all equally important. I just feel the slot position has this lesser opinion to it than an outside corner. Imo, that is not the case at all.
Why stop the top 10 offense talk. It's the truth, 2 years in a row we were a top 10 offense with our crappy Oline. Hell Green Bay has a mediocre Oline, yet their offense is still one of the best year in and year out.
I do agree that we need to be able to run the ball better, but our offense is far from terrible.
great contribution
If that's what you think, you need to either upgrade your porn or your priorities
Spags said he spent some time with Urban Meyer in the past and they teach their DBs the same techniques that the Gaints use.
I think our starting corners (DRC, Jenkins, Hall) are as solid as it gets all around and Eli Apple will be learning the game this year and spelling DRC, Jenkins and maybe even Hall here and there I'm sure.
As for safety, it seems like D. Thompson has the starting job unless N. Behre, M. Thompson, or Cooper Taylor WOWS the team and coaches in the pre-season games and full tilt practices.
I no longer see B. Jackson as a potential starter. I listened and read how "good" he was looking in camp last year but that was over-hype. I see B. Jackson on the practice squad this year.
SS: Landon Collins, N. Behre
FS: D. Thompson, M. Thompson
CB: DRC, Eli Apple
CB: Hall, Wade
CB: J. Jenkins
We have some talent, no doubt. A good mix of proven veterans and youngsters with upside.
My dark horse pick was Shaq Lawson based on a friend's stellar scouting report.