Offense: Run the ball more on smaller defenses?

I am hopeful but not overly optimistic.

In comment 13060439 KingBlue said:

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I am hopeful but not overly optimistic.

My optimism stems from a few things. I don't expect us to be top 10 but I'll settle for 11 - 13 in ypc.

My reasons for optimism include;
1. We ran well late last year as the OL stayed healthy and came together more and more as the year went along.
2. Our TE group and FB are versatile and more experienced now.
3. This is the 3rd year of McAdoo's offense and I suspect we'll be more in sync, passing better and deeper more often and that keeps safeties honest.
4. RB Jennings should have one more year left in his 31 year old body. RB A. Williams has lost some weight and you just have to hope he improves as our short yardage bull back. RB Vereen can also be used as a single back and the stats show he can run a bit too. RB Perkins will learn and as the season progresses he'll come to shine.

Am I being too optimistic? We of course must stay healthy.

and I think the run games function is to keep the defenses honest. i'm not sure that we'll even abandon the run when we want to hold a lead late. I think it's just as likely we will go to the short pass that West Coast people call " a forward handoff".

We just happen to have 4-5 guys that aren't all that much better than one another. While each may have a specific strength, its not like we have pro bowlers in this bunch or TEs that anybody is going to have to gameplan against (other than maybe Donnell in red zone)

I think we are actually deep in numbers but fairly shallow in talent.

None have established ability to block except maybe Johnson who is a bit undersized for inline blocking.

It may happen but there has to be big improvement in the TE group.

In comment 13060460 Jimmy Googs said:

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We just happen to have 4-5 guys that aren't all that much better than one another. While each may have a specific strength, its not like we have pro bowlers in this bunch or TEs that anybody is going to have to gameplan against (other than maybe Donnell in red zone) I think we are actually deep in numbers but fairly shallow in talent.

TE Will Tye's last four games last year were fairly superb and when you consider the fact that by his own admission he was "winging it" mostly; well, I expect him to improve by quite a bit this year and know his assignments.

TE Larry Donnel has played fairly well when healthy. His blocking holds him back along with his "flop fall" technique when catching the ball.

TE Matt LaCosse is obviously an unknown but has upside. Same goes for rookie TE Jerrel Adams.

I see Johnson as our "X Factor" guy who can line up at TE, FB or HBack.

I'm think all have abilities and Tye, LaCosse and Adams have "upside" in terms of catching, blocking and the techniques / knowledge of offense portions of the the game.

slightly better than average...

In comment 13060450 SGMen said:

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In comment 13060439 KingBlue said: Quote: I am hopeful but not overly optimistic. My optimism stems from a few things. I don't expect us to be top 10 but I'll settle for 11 - 13 in ypc. My reasons for optimism include; 1. We ran well late last year as the OL stayed healthy and came together more and more as the year went along. 2. Our TE group and FB are versatile and more experienced now. 3. This is the 3rd year of McAdoo's offense and I suspect we'll be more in sync, passing better and deeper more often and that keeps safeties honest. 4. RB Jennings should have one more year left in his 31 year old body. RB A. Williams has lost some weight and you just have to hope he improves as our short yardage bull back. RB Vereen can also be used as a single back and the stats show he can run a bit too. RB Perkins will learn and as the season progresses he'll come to shine. Am I being too optimistic? We of course must stay healthy.

As I said, I am hopeful. I just have yet to see great push or movement from the OL. They seem a bit more of a finesse OL. That is ok if you have running backs with great vision and the ability to make people miss. I'm not sure we have that guy... maybe Perkins can be.

Second year OL being together, improved blocking from the FB and TE, and a threatening passing game that can open up the run game are reasons for optimism.

In comment 13060494 KingBlue said:

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In comment 13060450 SGMen said: Quote: In comment 13060439 KingBlue said: Quote: I am hopeful but not overly optimistic. My optimism stems from a few things. I don't expect us to be top 10 but I'll settle for 11 - 13 in ypc. My reasons for optimism include; 1. We ran well late last year as the OL stayed healthy and came together more and more as the year went along. 2. Our TE group and FB are versatile and more experienced now. 3. This is the 3rd year of McAdoo's offense and I suspect we'll be more in sync, passing better and deeper more often and that keeps safeties honest. 4. RB Jennings should have one more year left in his 31 year old body. RB A. Williams has lost some weight and you just have to hope he improves as our short yardage bull back. RB Vereen can also be used as a single back and the stats show he can run a bit too. RB Perkins will learn and as the season progresses he'll come to shine. Am I being too optimistic? We of course must stay healthy. As I said, I am hopeful. I just have yet to see great push or movement from the OL. They seem a bit more of a finesse OL. That is ok if you have running backs with great vision and the ability to make people miss. I'm not sure we have that guy... maybe Perkins can be. Second year OL being together, improved blocking from the FB and TE, and a threatening passing game that can open up the run game are reasons for optimism.

What we lack at RB is someone who can scoot through a hole with explosiveness. Rookie RB Paul Perkins can be that man BUT he will need to learn first. I'm assuming that with this being the 3rd year of the offense; 2nd year of OL together; 2nd year for Pugh and Flowers at those positions; improved TE and FB blocking; and hopefully more deep balls keeping safeties honest; our power run game will be better and used more on smaller D's.

I like the idea of running early and balancing followed by the last 10 minutes or so of a game being about running on smaller, tired defenses. The run game wears down DL's and LB's (front 7) and you can control the clock.

I do see a short passing game as well, to TE's, RB's and WR's. But if TE Will Tye and FB Johnson give us much improved run blocking and even pass blocking (protect Eli from RB / FB sets where Rb goes out to catch after a chip) well we'll be on our way offensively due to great diversity and versatility.

But then again its hard to be optimistic about the run game with Newhouse at RT and J.Jerry at RG.

to the Lions for one of their offensive lineman that can help on the right side.

Mentioned on another thread that the Lions are having major injury issues at TE this summer.

morph the best qualities of each of the TE's into one guy, we would be set.....unfortunately, we have guys with almost as many minuses as pluses.....and Eli tends to make them look better than they actually are....

I think the line will be better, just by the fact it remains intact, and gains experience as a unit....but they are not road graders....but it would be nice if we could somehow , more consistently, convert third and short with runs....it would keep opposing defenses guessing on third down, and give Eli more options....perchance to dream, play action actually working on third down, for a long td pass....

In comment 13060516 Jimmy Googs said:

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to the Lions for one of their offensive lineman that can help on the right side. Mentioned on another thread that the Lions are having major injury issues at TE this summer.

I wouldn't trade TE Will Tye, whose rights we essentially own for three more seasons, unless the tackle was a bonafide stud as well. I see TE Will Tye being superb. I would not be shocked if he put up 75-850-8 type numbers assuming he gets the majority of snaps. I also believe he has more potential as an inline blocker than Donnell, Lacosse or Adams (maybe...).

You trade Donnell only because you only have him under contract for this year. And if you trade him you trade him starter for starter. Throw in a 7th round pick if you must to seal the deal for a big upgrade RT.

They lost Knighton at nose tackle, and most people expected them to draft one of the good DTs that were available in the first round this year, but they surprised and went with the WR, Doctson. So I'm guessing Redskins will be vulnerable to a good running game this year.

Cowboys too, with all their suspensions, may be soft against the run.

In comment 13060643 penAndDrink said:

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They lost Knighton at nose tackle, and most people expected them to draft one of the good DTs that were available in the first round this year, but they surprised and went with the WR, Doctson. So I'm guessing Redskins will be vulnerable to a good running game this year. Cowboys too, with all their suspensions, may be soft against the run.

We need to run well and throw short very well in our first three games to get to a 3-0 start.

Dallas DLine is beat up due to suspensions and possibly DT Tyrone Crawford's bad back ailing him (???) through camp and holding him back. I believe we'll have some success running, throwing short and then deep on Dallas on opening day. The Dallas D doesn't have much of a pass rush, at least on paper, and Eli with time is deadly.

New Orleans has a very suspect defense so running and controlling the clock while generating redzone TD's is the key. This is where our big TE's, FB Johnson and RB Vereen come into play. I suspect because we are home that we win this one in a back n forth contest.

Washington fed off a week schedule. I think they are a legit .500 team this year, give or take a game. We are home, division opponents, defense coming together, we stop their run and we run on them.

3-0 start before the real tough games begin.

Especially when we are trying to kill the clock with a late lead, I am not sure I want to run the ball more. The more they run the ball, the less often Eli is throwing to Beckham (and Cruz and Shepard)

In comment 13060733 Mike in Boston said:

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Especially when we are trying to kill the clock with a late lead, I am not sure I want to run the ball more. The more they run the ball, the less often Eli is throwing to Beckham (and Cruz and Shepard)

I still would prefer more balance. Much easier to convert a 3rd and 3 than a 3rd and 5. If you run well and can wear down a defense and tire them out, you can really move the ball in the last 10 minutes of a game. That is why having a great DL rotation is so so key in the NFL.

If defenses are now a bit "smaller" in terms of weight to help guys with quickness and so forth, well, you'd have to think a power run game with TE and FB could be a great idea. If you get 2 - 3 more feet per carry because you are a big back you have shorter 3rd downs to convert to the TE, RB, slot WR. You go deep when the safety cheats up. Keep D's thinking.

But it was not the passing game of either Super Bowl team that got them there. It was defense and running the football. Go look at the box scores from last year's playoff games from those two teams. Manning threw for 222, 176 and 141 in the playoffs and Newton racked up 161, 335 and 265 and the two COMBINED for 5 passing TDs in 6 games. The ability to control the ball and force teams to play from behind is what each team thrived doing.

We keep seeing regular season stats that inflate yearly due to the new rules but run defense is still a pillar of success in this league. Teams that sacrifice too much size at the POA won't survive the post season when the rules aren't as touchy and the weather turns less conducive to passing football. If are really going to take a step it will have to be running and stopping the run. We threw with almost ability to run last year, if this line improves under Solari we will be able to do what we please on offense, regardless of what a team throws at us defensively.

In comment 13060755 Joey in VA said:

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But it was not the passing game of either Super Bowl team that got them there. It was defense and running the football. Go look at the box scores from last year's playoff games from those two teams. Manning threw for 222, 176 and 141 in the playoffs and Newton racked up 161, 335 and 265 and the two COMBINED for 5 passing TDs in 6 games. The ability to control the ball and force teams to play from behind is what each team thrived doing. We keep seeing regular season stats that inflate yearly due to the new rules but run defense is still a pillar of success in this league. Teams that sacrifice too much size at the POA won't survive the post season when the rules aren't as touchy and the weather turns less conducive to passing football. If are really going to take a step it will have to be running and stopping the run. We threw with almost ability to run last year, if this line improves under Solari we will be able to do what we please on offense, regardless of what a team throws at us defensively.

Joey in VA, a great post with very sound basic stats and logic. Yes, while it is a passing & Fantasy Football led league, it is ultimately the run game and run defense coupled with NOT turning the ball over which leads teams to championships. Yes, pass rush too helps (see V. Miller).

The weather never came to mind but yes come November and December, it is tough to throw outdoors. Homefield for an indoor team is key and challenging.

I think the Giants have the best DL in the NFC East and that will help our run defense very much. I think our TE's, left side of OL, FB and maybe RB's will all show improvement and we will run better. Wearing teams down is key too and thee run game wears you down more I think (DL).

the defense out ? Doesn't the offense run the same number of plays ? Why doesn't the offense wear out ? :)

Doesn't the west coast offense use the passing game as an extension of the running game? Sure you still need to run the ball but if expect middle pod the pack would be more likely with allot of catches by vareen and eventually Perkins and/or allot of 4wr sets

Our running game will include the WRs and TE screens to supplement/complement the literal running game. Those short throws are basically running plays and I imagine we see more of that from McAdoo.

so we can field 3 TE/H-back/Fullbacks, none of whom was drafted or have ever shown any particular even average propensity to block well (except Johnson who the Steelers rarely put on the field and deemed expendable?)

Then you suggest we are going to run the ball down opponents' throats as if our OL had Jerry Kramer, Fuzzy Thurston, and Forest Greg lining up on the OL instead of Flowers, Jerry, and Newhouse...

And you want to take the ball out of Eli's hands (the most productive offensive player in franchise history by a mega-landslide) to feed the ultra productive and durable Rashad Jennings as if he were the reincarnation of Jim Brown.

You have interesting fantasies, that may in fact suggest medication.

(no way)

In comment 13060899 BlueLou said:

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so we can field 3 TE/H-back/Fullbacks, none of whom was drafted or have ever shown any particular even average propensity to block well (except Johnson who the Steelers rarely put on the field and deemed expendable?) Then you suggest we are going to run the ball down opponents' throats as if our OL had Jerry Kramer, Fuzzy Thurston, and Forest Greg lining up on the OL instead of Flowers, Jerry, and Newhouse... And you want to take the ball out of Eli's hands (the most productive offensive player in franchise history by a mega-landslide) to feed the ultra productive and durable Rashad Jennings as if he were the reincarnation of Jim Brown. You have interesting fantasies, that may in fact suggest medication.

I suggest using available match-up advantages wherever possible. If you can run on a team, run. If you can pass on slow LB's, S's and nickel corner (our defense last year, summarized) you throw over the middle all the day long.

The title of the thread is about running well on smaller defenses built and designed to have a quick rush and to stop the passing game (short and long).

If you read the camp reports, you will see that McAdoo has used a 2 TE, 1 FB alignment and mixed those guys up.

Personally, I think Tye and Johnson will be better than average blockers. Tye was solid late last year and TC said as much about him late last year. Our run game improved for two reasons: OL cohesiveness growing and TE Tye blocking better.

All I'm saying is that I think we'll run the ball more effectively this year. If we netted 6 yard last year on back to back carries, we may net 7 this year and that yard difference is a big difference in terms of getting another first down.

And yes, the WCO uses the short pass as a forward handoff BUT today's defenses are being designed with quicker guys to counter that. A lot of 4-2 - 5 looks with extra safeties and nickel corners out there even on first downs.

I think we'll learn a lot game 1 of the pre-season.

has to use the adjective "fairly" to describe their skills, it pretty much says it all

In comment 13060908 Jimmy Googs said:

(no way) [/quote]I agree, now way he sucks but he may struggle some for the first quarter of the season as he adjusts to the "real" NFL and its speed, defenses, etc. We need WR Victor Cruz to be strong right out the gates so my fingers are crossed.

In comment 13060813 PEEJ said:

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the defense out ? Doesn't the offense run the same number of plays ? Why doesn't the offense wear out ? :)

The front 7 has to attack and tackle the running back. DL's, as I understand cause I've never played DL or RB, get wore down more when you pound the rock as compared to pass rushing. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I've heard that before.

I read a training camp report and the word is OG J. Jerry has improved his technique for run blocking and pass block sets. He may just have worked hard enough and learned enough technique to have his best season ever.

LT E. Flowers continues to struggle with edge rushers but you have to believe he'll get better run blocking - he is a bull when he just goes straight ahead and mauls.

LG J. Pugh is in his second season at LG and is bigger than ever after a solid off-season. He will be better.

OC Richburg should return and be a master OC now. He was superb last year and I look for superb-er this year.

Go Giants!

is fine they did a real good job last year and I think it will improve. They threw for over 4500 yds and was a top Offense last year. The defense sucked and should be a major upgrade this year.

going into 2016. It backs up what I have been telling you SGMen:

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“Let’s be honest,’’ Irvin said. “Rashad Jennings at running back, good, solid running back, but you got Eli Manning, you got Odell Beckham, you got Victor Cruz, if he gets 75 percent, 80 percent of what he used to be, with the young Sterling? If you don’t open it up, I need to open up [McAdoo’s] head and crack his cranium and fertilize his brain and tell him what are you doing, you know what I mean? That’s what I’m saying.’’

In comment 13061508 BlueLou said:

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going into 2016. It backs up what I have been telling you SGMen: Quote: “Let’s be honest,’’ Irvin said. “Rashad Jennings at running back, good, solid running back, but you got Eli Manning, you got Odell Beckham, you got Victor Cruz, if he gets 75 percent, 80 percent of what he used to be, with the young Sterling? If you don’t open it up, I need to open up [McAdoo’s] head and crack his cranium and fertilize his brain and tell him what are you doing, you know what I mean? That’s what I’m saying.’’

What is the formula for winning in November through February? Especially if you play outdoors like the NY Giants do?? Simply put:
1. Stop the Run so no easy 3rd and shorts.
2. Run well yourself.
3. Don't turn it over (more interceptions throwing)
4. Strong defense overall, especially DL pressure on QB.
5. Solid QB, no mistakes, good pass protection.

In November winds and cold, you MUST run the ball well. And when do you establish your run game? Do you just say "Its November, cold out, windy, lets run now?" - NO! You begin in September, develop the run game and work in rookie RB Paul Perkins cause I believe he has the potential to be our late season saviour, the guy who changes the offense with his quickness and speed through a hole and he'll have fresh legs compared to 31 year old Jennings.

Don't discount the run game. As for Michael Irvin, well, everyone has an opinion.

In comment 13061357 mdthedream said:

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is fine they did a real good job last year and I think it will improve. They threw for over 4500 yds and was a top Offense last year. The defense sucked and should be a major upgrade this year.

Adding CB/Nickel CB Leon Hall was crucial. We were torched over the middle last year and potentially could have been torched again this year since MLB Brinkley is no cover LB; SS Landon Collins has yet to show he can backpedal and cover guys he's chasing though I believe he'll be better; and, we didn't have a true quality nickel corner until now.

MLB K. Robinson will be our nickel LB and on the field a lot. I think MLB Brinkley will start vs Dallas on opening day because Dallas will try to pound the rock with that OL, rookie RB E. Elliott and superb TE Witten blocking. They should hit a wall against our DLine, MLB Brinkley (still superb at diagnosing a run play and hitting), SLB D. Kennard (really hoping he stays healthy and busts out); and SS Landon Collins near the LOS.