Which key backups (or backup positions) worry you?

I mentioned both of them earlier this year in a post about 3rd Round picks who really need to contribute in 2016. After those two, I think the situation at RB. TE, and WR needs to be settled first before I start worrying about backups.

For example, we know Jennings is going to start and Vereen is going to get his fair share of snaps, but I wouldn't call Vereen Rashad's principal backup, per se.

FYI, I've seen and heard good things from both Perkins and Darkwa. There was a time last year when he was healthy where I thought Darkwa was going to add a real spark to the offense. He may not make the roster, but I'm not sleeping on him. I think there is talent in the depth at the position.

situation:

JPP played 91% of snaps from Week 10 through end of 2015. Vernon played 92% of snaps in second half of 2015.

Hankins played 65-70% of snaps in 2014/2015 (until injury).

Harrison played 54% of snaps in 2015, 48% in 2014, 44% in 2013.

Given Harrison's history of knee operations, and importance he himself placed on rest in managing his knee issues, Giants would be rolling dice to increase his workload significantly.

Bottom line: there are likely to be many more rotational snaps available at DT than DE. Bromley is a big question mark coming off surgery. Never want to have to depend upon a rookie UDFA but: Greg Milhouse could be a very important person in 2016.

If OO can be effective playing inside, that could also be a big plus.

In comment 13061379 UberAlias said:

Quote:

FYI, I've seen and heard good things from both Perkins and Darkwa. There was a time last year when he was healthy where I thought Darkwa was going to add a real spark to the offense. He may not make the roster, but I'm not sleeping on him. I think there is talent in the depth at the position.

Agree.
RB depth is deep, but not spectacular. I think the long term answer might be Perkins, but he's going to have to jump 3 guys (likely) on the depth chart to get carries. I think he is inactive most of the year with 2017 in mind.

In comment 13061379 UberAlias said:

Quote:

FYI, I've seen and heard good things from both Perkins and Darkwa. There was a time last year when he was healthy where I thought Darkwa was going to add a real spark to the offense. He may not make the roster, but I'm not sleeping on him. I think there is talent in the depth at the position.

I don't have an issue with any of the RBs (unlike the TEs :D) other than Darkwa's durability. Still, I think we'll have to wait until the RB herd is thinned out before we can say with any certainty who Jennings' principal backup will be. I read the same tweet about Darkwa that you posted in another thread. At the same time, I've also read good things from Pat Traina re Andre Williams! So, go figure. If training camp is about letting the cream rise to the top, I'd say it hasn't happened yet. That's all.

In comment 13061380 shyster said:

Quote:

situation: JPP played 91% of snaps from Week 10 through end of 2015. Vernon played 92% of snaps in second half of 2015. Hankins played 65-70% of snaps in 2014/2015 (until injury). Harrison played 54% of snaps in 2015, 48% in 2014, 44% in 2013. Given Harrison's history of knee operations, and importance he himself placed on rest in managing his knee issues, Giants would be rolling dice to increase his workload significantly. Bottom line: there are likely to be many more rotational snaps available at DT than DE. Bromley is a big question mark coming off surgery. Never want to have to depend upon a rookie UDFA but: Greg Milhouse could be a very important person in 2016. If OO can be effective playing inside, that could also be a big plus.

Great contribution to the thread thanks. I knew JPP was a workhorse, and would have guessed OV too. But between them that still leaves 20% of the DE snaps played by OO or Wynn or someone. A fair % of the DT rotational snaps will likely be picked up someone or another of the DEs playing inside on surefire passing down situations. But that will stll leave plenty of snaps for a rotational DT.

Hopefully PFF'S good grades on Bromley last year were accurate, and hopefully Bromley improves on that. But so far the dude isn't even on the field practicing, and has a new position coach to adjust to as well. The team appears to be precariously thin at DT.

What we have to keep in mind is that it is not live in camp. The coaches have stated over and over that the pre-season will be key in deciding, and for obvious reasons.

In comment 13061380 shyster said:

Quote:

situation: JPP played 91% of snaps from Week 10 through end of 2015. Vernon played 92% of snaps in second half of 2015. Hankins played 65-70% of snaps in 2014/2015 (until injury). Harrison played 54% of snaps in 2015, 48% in 2014, 44% in 2013. Given Harrison's history of knee operations, and importance he himself placed on rest in managing his knee issues, Giants would be rolling dice to increase his workload significantly. Bottom line: there are likely to be many more rotational snaps available at DT than DE. Bromley is a big question mark coming off surgery. Never want to have to depend upon a rookie UDFA but: Greg Milhouse could be a very important person in 2016. If OO can be effective playing inside, that could also be a big plus.

I agree that there will be more DT snaps available, but also keep in mind that JPP, Vernon, and even OO will get some snaps inside on passing downs, which could be fairly often if the run D with Hankins/Snacks lives up to its potential. I'd estimate that we'll see "DEs" take at least 10-15 snaps/game from the DT spot.

If Kennard stays healthy, you could also have him rushing from a 3-pt stance in a "NASCAR" package with 3 other DL (potentially JPP/Vernon/OO).

And Wynn isn't sexy, he does a solid job at the POA and could definitely be a part of the rotation getting a series or 2 per game (at least on 1st/2nd downs).

out as a worrisome position. I think Collins will have a big year and even like Thompson's potential as a leader/ballhawk, but after that the depth scares me. Lots of late round picks that haven't done much beyond flash in camp/preseason and none of them have shown the ability to stay healthy which hurts chemistry and communication.

That said, one saving grace is good depth at CB especially if Hall is healthy. So they might choose to get Apple/Jenkins/DRC or Hall/Jenkins/DRC on the field over going with a big nickel alignment (or maybe Hall gets some S snaps with Collins dropping into the box?)

"rotational players" until one of them wins the "3rd S / big nickel" role which IIRC was really a Perry Fewell deal, not a Spags regular personnel grouping.

Somewhere also I think I read that Spags might employ a strong movement/pass defending LB in his version of the "big nickel" rather than a true safety. That could be Casillas or Robinson.

Spags' mantra was "putting the best 11 guys on the field", so it's early to guess if there are any "starting" snaps at all for the backup safeties.

For now I just want the backup safeties to bring heat on STs and know the playbook cold, just in case...

we have career backups starting in. Our backups are what you would expect at most positions; guys that can come in and do a decent job filling in for a couple of games, but not guys you want starting every week.

Then I would point to WR. Shepard would likely see a lot of action out of the slot, and then who on the other side, Davis? He's looked decent in camp, but if you follow this sort of thing, that is not much of a guarantee. There is so little contact and with all the rotations some of the plays are made against guys who won't be on rosters or still learning the defense. Davis and White were on the roster last year and did not step up. Harris is a good guy to have around but I don't see him factoring in significantly. I assume Shepard is the real deal, but it remains to be seen if he can be more than a move the chains guy in his rookie season. Aside from him and OBJ, we are talking about guys with limited to no resume who have not proven anything yet.

That's why Cruz is such an interesting piece. What we get out of him really does change the whole complexion of this group because you are not asking the rest of them to step into such prominent roles.

In comment 13061480 Beer Man said:

Quote:

we have career backups starting in. Our backups are what you would expect at most positions; guys that can come in and do a decent job filling in for a couple of games, but not guys you want starting every week.

Please name ONE "career backup" who is starting on this roster.

And back that up with data, ie games started divided by games played over his career.

You may not be happy with all our starters, and they may be jags, but I doubt there is a single "career backup" slated to start on the 2016 Giants by strict definition.

The rotational players in the front seven have talent, but very little track record of plus-level performance.

At safety, it appears that the backups might not get a lot of snaps if the starters are healthy, because the dime package will tilt toward 4 CBs to utilize Hall and Apple.

OL depth is a concern, but ideally you don't want to rotate much there anyway.

perhaps RBs and LBs to some degree. I see that as more specialists filling a role.

My concern on depth is on the OL. The Giants can't afford an injury there.

In comment 13061380 shyster said:

Quote:

situation: JPP played 91% of snaps from Week 10 through end of 2015. Vernon played 92% of snaps in second half of 2015. Hankins played 65-70% of snaps in 2014/2015 (until injury). Harrison played 54% of snaps in 2015, 48% in 2014, 44% in 2013. Given Harrison's history of knee operations, and importance he himself placed on rest in managing his knee issues, Giants would be rolling dice to increase his workload significantly. Bottom line: there are likely to be many more rotational snaps available at DT than DE. Bromley is a big question mark coming off surgery. Never want to have to depend upon a rookie UDFA but: Greg Milhouse could be a very important person in 2016. If OO can be effective playing inside, that could also be a big plus.

The training camp report week 1 I read last night stated that OWA has that superbly quick first step to rush the passer BUT is still struggling with run defense. My take is that he comes in on "passing downs" to rush the QB and he'll do fairly well BUT may be run at if the weakness is clear cut enough.

I think the practices held AFTER pre-season game 1 will be revealing as to the direction we are heading with players. Guys will move up and down the depth chart. McAdoo likes versatility.

Last note: I think both JPP and Vernon should play 80 - 85% of snaps rather than almost all of them. Reason being is that it is a long season and you need to keep them fresh. If you have quality behind them (OWA, Wynn) let them play a little more and when there are 5 minutes left in a game you have a little more wind in your sails.

BlueLou said:

Quote:

Please name ONE "career backup" who is starting on this roster. And back that up with data, ie games started divided by games played over his career.

Casillas has started 25 of 78 games. His career high was five starts in his six pre-NYG seasons. Thomas has started 23 of 59 games, and was strictly an injury stopgap for Chicago and Jacksonville before starting 11 of 12 last year for the Giants.

Brinkley has started 42 of 94 games; Robinson 21 of 36;
Sheppard 45 of 77.

Jennings has started 42 of 80, but just 17 of 53 before joining NYG.

A lot of the pre-NYG starts accumulated by these players were due to injuries. Robinson was an exception for a couple of years in Washington: when he was healthy, he mostly started.

Marshall Newhouse is an odd case. He has started 50 of 76 games, but has never been secure in his position. He was also redshirted for all of 2010.

If we lose EITHER LT E. Flowers or RT R. Newhouse, we have to shuffle the OL with Pugh moving to LT (my opinion) or maybe R. Newhouse moves to LT and OT Stingley starts at RT?

For those who believe 2nd year OG / RT B. Hart would start at RT, I'm reading that he doesn't seem to have the feet for RT? He is a guard? I guess the pre-season games and coach Solari's continued work with the young man will show...or not show...in the next few weeks.

I also am not as sold on our depth at WR should Cruz get hurt or be limited in ability due to injuries. I would prefer WR D. Harris to be focused on special teams. He is a demon. We have a shot to once again have a top 5 ST's unit and D. Harris would be a huge part of that.

Finally, I believe we'll be ok on the DL but only if DT J. Bromley gets healthy and practicing soon; and, one of the unknowns (Nix, Millhouse, Hughes, etc.) emerges.

For the Giants, the o-line depth is based on Pugh being able to play either tackle position and Jerry being able to play either guard spot. One significant injury more than a couple of games to either tackle will probably cause a major line shuffle.

Depending upon who wins the MLB, their could be some shuffling there too if injuries occur.

scrambling.

Fans should be very grateful that we have Pugh on the roster, because his ability to slide to either OT spots is a huge plus. But were that necessary you'd have a marginal player sliding in at LG, which is less than ideal.

In comment 13061571 Big Blue Blogger said:

Quote:

BlueLou said: Quote: Please name ONE "career backup" who is starting on this roster. And back that up with data, ie games started divided by games played over his career. Casillas has started 25 of 78 games. His career high was five starts in his six pre-NYG seasons. Thomas has started 23 of 59 games, and was strictly an injury stopgap for Chicago and Jacksonville before starting 11 of 12 last year for the Giants. Brinkley has started 42 of 94 games; Robinson 21 of 36; Sheppard 45 of 77. Jennings has started 42 of 80, but just 17 of 53 before joining NYG. A lot of the pre-NYG starts accumulated by these players were due to injuries. Robinson was an exception for a couple of years in Washington: when he was healthy, he mostly started. Marshall Newhouse is an odd case. He has started 50 of 76 games, but has never been secure in his position. He was also redshirted for all of 2010.

Your data, which obviously I was loosely aware of, underscores my point when you dig a bit. These guys in general aren't a bunch of 1st and 2nd round clearly projected franchise cornerstones. That's why they are now Giants fighting for starting roles.

But considering the typical path of almost every mid or late round draft pick, these guys were true starters... what I mean by that is that (again typically) that mid round draft picks almost always get a "redshirt" season their rookie years. If they are indeed "starter level" players you don't typically see that until year 2 in a given system...

Take Sheppard for example... drafted by Buffalo (3rd round) he didn't start at all as a rookie but started every game year 2; then traded to Indy (not cut) and didn't fit but started about half the games he played in with them for 1 season. Picked up by Miami as an FA I believe, didn't start year one there but started every game year two...

Robinson (5th round pick by the Skins) also didn't start once as a rookie, but started every game he played in year 2...

Those guys were starters, not career backups. I'll grant you Casillas, Rashad Jennings, and borderline on Brinkley - but Brinkley has both Robinson and Sheppard to beat out, and Robinson (a former starter as noted) could be bumped over to Casillas' spot if Sheppard or Brinkley wins the Mike job.

Jennings was indeed a "career backup" before arriving to the Giants, but I bet that's not whom Beer man was referring to.

In comment 13061723 yatqb said:

Quote:

scrambling. Fans should be very grateful that we have Pugh on the roster, because his ability to slide to either OT spots is a huge plus. But were that necessary you'd have a marginal player sliding in at LG, which is less than ideal.

But I specifically asked about the depth players who are defacto starters in sub packages or situational downs... So it doesn't apply to OL at all, really.

In any case I am still rooting for Hart to unseat Newhouse, making Newhouse the backup swing OT.

I have more faith in freakin' Nassib than I do in some of those OL backups.

In comment 13061523 BlueLou said:

Quote:

In comment 13061480 Beer Man said: Quote: we have career backups starting in. Our backups are what you would expect at most positions; guys that can come in and do a decent job filling in for a couple of games, but not guys you want starting every week. Please name ONE "career backup" who is starting on this roster. And back that up with data, ie games started divided by games played over his career. You may not be happy with all our starters, and they may be jags, but I doubt there is a single "career backup" slated to start on the 2016 Giants by strict definition.

That's easy - Starting at RT we have Newhouse, RG - John Jerry (he may have started in Miami, but he is clearly backup material), at LB we have a few that are backup grade of which a couple will probably be starting - Brinkley/Robinson/Casillas/Sheppard/Thomas.

you can throw Jennings on the list

In comment 13061897 Beer Man said:

Quote:

In comment 13061523 BlueLou said: Quote: In comment 13061480 Beer Man said: Quote: we have career backups starting in. Our backups are what you would expect at most positions; guys that can come in and do a decent job filling in for a couple of games, but not guys you want starting every week. Please name ONE "career backup" who is starting on this roster. And back that up with data, ie games started divided by games played over his career. You may not be happy with all our starters, and they may be jags, but I doubt there is a single "career backup" slated to start on the 2016 Giants by strict definition. That's easy - Starting at RT we have Newhouse, RG - John Jerry (he may have started in Miami, but he is clearly backup material), at LB we have a few that are backup grade of which a couple will probably be starting - Brinkley/Robinson/Casillas/Sheppard/Thomas.

So John Jerry, who has started 77 of the 89 games he's played in his NFL career is a "career backup."

Because Beer Man says so... got it.

What's your real name, Vince Lombardi?

but Eric told me some asshole already took that handle.

BlueLou said:

Quote:

Take Sheppard for example... drafted by Buffalo (3rd round) he didn't start at all as a rookie but started every game year 2; then traded to Indy (not cut) and didn't fit but started about half the games he played in with them for 1 season. Picked up by Miami as an FA I believe, didn't start year one there but started every game year two...

Even your Sheppard example is equivocal. He didn't really win the MIKE job in Miami; by most accounts, Koa Misi beat him out. But Chris McCain looked so lost on the strong side that the Dolphins moved Misi there at the start of the season, leaving Sheppard in the middle by default. Does that make him a starter or a backup pressed into service? He was both, which suggests that the whole discussion of "career backups" is mostly semantics.

I think we can all agree that the Giants have some marginal starters, and some marginal backups behind them.

In comment 13062093 Beer Man said:

Quote:

but Eric told me some asshole already took that handle.

So because you need to play the internet tough guy by calling below average starters "career backups" and I call you out on it, I am an a-hole. I have no problem with that. But you are still flat out wrong in your characterization of players like John Jerry and some others. Deal with being wrong, maybe?

In comment 13061380 shyster said:

Quote:

situation: JPP played 91% of snaps from Week 10 through end of 2015. Vernon played 92% of snaps in second half of 2015. Hankins played 65-70% of snaps in 2014/2015 (until injury). Harrison played 54% of snaps in 2015, 48% in 2014, 44% in 2013. Given Harrison's history of knee operations, and importance he himself placed on rest in managing his knee issues, Giants would be rolling dice to increase his workload significantly. Bottom line: there are likely to be many more rotational snaps available at DT than DE. Bromley is a big question mark coming off surgery. Never want to have to depend upon a rookie UDFA but: Greg Milhouse could be a very important person in 2016. If OO can be effective playing inside, that could also be a big plus.

Nice job here shyster...

In comment 13062190 BlueLou said:

Quote:

In comment 13062093 Beer Man said: Quote: but Eric told me some asshole already took that handle. So because you need to play the internet tough guy by calling below average starters "career backups" and I call you out on it, I am an a-hole. I have no problem with that. But you are still flat out wrong in your characterization of players like John Jerry and some others. Deal with being wrong, maybe?

I'll be sure to do that if I ever find that I am wrong about something.