Is that OV really SHOULD be getting the better of a very young/green, 2nd year OLT at this stage. By all accounts OV has arrived as-advertised, which is both desperately needed, and fortunate based on what they paid him.
I have no doubt that Flowers will improve with time, coaching, and working against OV.
You can see that his ass is significantly higher than the other offensive linemen. I am not talking about his technique. He seems to have done a decent job in that period. I am wondering if this is an issue for him struggling with speed rushers or a correction they made to help combat that. Link - ( New Window )
In time he will improve his technique and become a dominant force at LT. He has the luxury of working with one of the best offensive line coaches in the game now.
"Flowers’ teammates and the Giants had concerns last year about the lineman's rigidity and attitude. He had a rocky relationship with former offensive line coach Pat Flaherty, who is now with the 49ers. It created an uncomfortable and unhealthy work environment."
Should be a right tackle, but the Giants are going to stick with him, I think they are being stubborn and foolish in this area, I understand that they want continuity and that they are convinced that alone will make this OLine better, but they had an opportunity to bring in a couple of veteran left tackles and if they moved Flowers over to right tackle in the off season that would have happened, I think that was the one mistake they made, if this kid can not be moved or he will take a step back, then maybe he is not going to be what they hoped he will be. They will use this season to make this a final decision, if it doesn't work, they will either move him, or not extend him, best to find out now I guess, but Eli is not getting younger and 1 bad injury will change everyone's perception about the stability there. They had an opportunity that I think they should have taken. Time will tell us if they were right.
Flowers has questionable technique. It's known, and it was pointed out multiple times over his rookie year by former Giants linemen. He didn't have a particularly good year in protection, and injuries played a role in that, but also his game needed work.
Yet he's getting a firm benefit of the doubt by many, perhaps because of his size and strength and personality.
I have no problem with it, but I compare it to a guy like Will Beatty, who I don't believe was singled out to such a degree, and was generally known as a 'good technician' at the position, and people soured on him almost immediately because he doesn't "look" like a lineman.
Flowers would be at RT, as was the plan before Beatty shit the crib.
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Exactly. And, I would like to see what he has (when the games begin again) with two healthy legs...Technique or not, that High ankle sprain most likely made him a shell of what he could be..Imo
Irregardless of all this, Flowers is the best LT on the roster Â
It's not like starting quality left tackles are floating around waiting to be picked up. He's the best available option at the moment and he's going to be there this year, like it or not. Personally, I think he's going to have a solid year. Vernon is going to help his development. I hope.
He should be strides better technique wise after a year in the league and taking lumps for 16 games. However, I have a slight issue with Ranaan's take here...
Quote:
After looking at three running plays early in Tuesday's practice, there was a common theme. Flowers' first step was good. It was quick. But then he started drifting laterally. He lost momentum and struggled to keep his hands inside the defender’s shoulders. This allowed defensive end Olivier Vernon to overpower Flowers and win the leverage game. Vernon pushed Flowers into the backfield with regularity during the two practices.
He starts the paragraph with looking at three running plays and talks about his first step, then drifting laterally. He then closes with Vernon pushing Flowers into the backfield with regularity, which I would assume was on pass plays, not run plays as the DE will be finding a ball carrier and not walking back OTs. So, he has a good first step in the run game, then "drifts laterally"? This is a WCO zone scheme, it requires movement, how else would Flowers move in a scheme that requires it?
If his hands got too far out in front of him and he was leaning, OK, I get that, but drifting laterally? That's part and parcel to his job on a running play so that critique shows a hole in Ranaan's understanding of what he's watching in the scheme of a play. You can focus on a player, ignore the play and make an incorrect assumption because "drifting laterally" or moving laterally is what this OL will do often in this offense, even on passing downs as we've seen the waggles and rollout passes. It's not his lateral movement, it's his feet being squared up under his shoulder pads and his hands staying inside that are the issue. Ranaan points that out correctly but his overall assessment in that paragraph is all over the place and quite frankly flawed.
but I was lambasted for saying he was a RT. To me, all the signs from scouts and the giants pointed to him being a dominating RT long term. Once Beatty got hurt, all of a sudden there was talk that he was always in the pans for LT long term, which I think was revisionist.
That said, I thought he played well for a rookie and I would not categorize his play as below average as Raanan did. Once they moved him there, I think the commitment has to be there to develop him as their LT for the next decade. They are having enough trouble finding a RT, so I fail to see how moving him to RT is a better option. Who plays LT in that scenario?
As for the attitude, that was news to me. From day one, I was impressed with his attitude. He was one of their hardest workers last summer and he said all of the right things.
Both Richburg and Flowers flashed ability very early on as rookies and then they both hit the rookie wall and just stunk the rest of the way.
Richburg is now a borderline elite interior lineman in my eyes. Flowers still has a chance to make a similar jump.
He's a big mean mofo, the last guy on the team I'd want to fight.
Richburg was forced to play OG as a rookie, though.. moving to his natural position had a lot to do with the major jump he made from year 1 to year 2.
I'd like to see Flowers stay at LT for now because I still think he can play there but needs more experience. It could certainly turn out that he's just much better suited to play RT, though. Time will tell.
RE: RE: If the Giants had another viable, LONG TERM solution @ LT Â
Flowers would be at RT, as was the plan before Beatty shit the crib.
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Wrong. They drafted him before Beatty's shit happened and they said on the night they drafted him that they want and think he can be a cornerstone LT.
As I said- They drafted him #9 overall to be the LT of the future. The "future" turned into starting at LT as a rookie because of Beatty's injuries. He was supposed to be the RT in 2015.
BBI bitches that he's not at RT, while ignoring fact they lost their LT last year (Beatty), pushing the timeline up.
Got it?
Broken record, but do people realize how difficult it is Â
to do what is required of an OLT and be hampered by a High Ankle Sprain? Most of us would be in severe pain with every step and that's with simple walking, for most likely months on end..
The experts can address his overall technique and what needs to change. No problem with that at all. But if he's flawed and STILL learning AND on top of that has to deal with a HAS as well, I think what he accomplished last year was rather remarkable, all things considered..Imo
Hopefully this year, with reasonable health, we can see the full extent of his improvement and production. I'd like to see what he does when he does not start out behind the injury 8 ball
but I was lambasted for saying he was a RT. To me, all the signs from scouts and the giants pointed to him being a dominating RT long term. Once Beatty got hurt, all of a sudden there was talk that he was always in the pans for LT long term, which I think was revisionist.
That said, I thought he played well for a rookie and I would not categorize his play as below average as Raanan did. Once they moved him there, I think the commitment has to be there to develop him as their LT for the next decade. They are having enough trouble finding a RT, so I fail to see how moving him to RT is a better option. Who plays LT in that scenario?
As for the attitude, that was news to me. From day one, I was impressed with his attitude. He was one of their hardest workers last summer and he said all of the right things.
They said on draft day he was a LT. Stop with the "revisionist" tin foil hat stuff.
I'll try again:
-The Giants drafted Flowers as the LT of the future.
-The 2015 line was supposed to be:
-Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Flowers
-Beatty got hurt and is no longer on the team (or on a NFL team)
-Flowers' timeline was pushed up, forcing him to LT early.
It made zero sense to bring in a washed-up LT, hindering Flowers' development.
I recall the draft time talk was that he was going to eventually replace Beatty, but probably start out as a RT.
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
I recall the draft time talk was that he was going to eventually replace Beatty, but probably start out as a RT.
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
Let's be fair and not lump all of us lamenting Pugh's second year..I and others on here saw it for what WE THINK it was; a man playing most of the year with one arm..
will improve just from the standpoint of being thrown to the wolves last season. He'll be stronger and mentally he'll be better. Even if the technique is still a work in progress, he'll be much better.
I recall the draft time talk was that he was going to eventually replace Beatty, but probably start out as a RT.
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
How is Flowers playing "out of position" exactly? The team drafted him to be a LT, the position he played in college.
As for Pugh- It was long speculated that his best position may be G, and scouts indicated he could play all along the OL. He was our best OL at RT his rookie year.
Stop making shit up. The internet is a beautiful thing- it allows you to research shit so you don't sound like an idiot.
of just letting the rookies get out there and figure it out, even if it means you'll have some bumps along the way. Love that McAdoo is throwing Shepard and Thompson out there immediately, and basically Apple as well. Just love it.
"I told you it wasn't sexy, but I love the pick. He can play left tackle. He can play right tackle. He can play left guard. He can play right guard." -- Mike Mayock
There is a little revisionist history going on on this thread Â
Here are Jerry Reese's words. The way he phrases it doesn't sound too confident to me that the Giants are counting on this guy becoming the LT of the future. He thinks he could play LT but also sounds like he's deferring to the coaches. I agree though Beatty's torn pec took the decision away.
Quote:
Q: Do you project him as a possible left tackle?
A: Yeah, you would think so. You would think he can play left tackle. He could play right tackle. We project him as a really good football player, first, and where he ends up, that’s up to our coaches.
And here are Tom Coughlin's words. Neither seem emphatic he has to be a left tackle.
Quote:
Q: Is he a right tackle or a left tackle?
A: He can be either side. He [was] a left tackle last year, but he has the size and so on and so forth to play a lot of spots if you so desire. We think he is a tackle.
Here are Marc Ross's words.
Quote:
Q: Where do you see him position-wise?
A: Tackle, for sure. He can play [either side]. He has done that. He played right tackle as a freshman. He played left tackle the last two years, so wherever the coaches want to play him and feel most comfortable right now, but I feel he can do either tackle spot.
Sounds like the front office and HC left open the possibility for him to play RT.
He was drafted to be the LT at some point in the future, they projected his talent level at #9 overall to be franchise cornerstone worthy, and they would've been happy with him at RT in the interim.
Injuries forced their hand, and the future became 2015.
He was drafted to be the LT at some point in the future, they projected his talent level at #9 overall to be franchise cornerstone worthy, and they would've been happy with him at RT in the interim.
Injuries forced their hand, and the future became 2015.
I think his stance is a bit wide prior to his kick step. But I took that as a result of his ankle issues and his compensation to kick that leg out and back in order to gain ground on an oncoming speed rusher. However, that works against him too because he's immediately off balance and can be easily beaten inside on a little skinny power step or inside rip.
Looked to me that he really struggled against the speedy, smaller speed rusher with a quick first step. But keep in mind, a lot of these guys will set him up over and over and over again - then either bull rush him or use speed.
He plays high at times, his hips are up, and he loses leverage on his heels and sometimes in his bucket step. That's why we've seen smaller DEs attack him with power - not only speed.
But when he gets his hands inside the rusher and uses his strength and unbelieveable power from his long arms there is no chance for the defender - play over. But it's all in his feet.
He wasn't coached up properly in Miami and relied solely on his size and strength to dominate. That's not going to work in the pro game. If anyone will get him right, it's a guy like Solari and hopefully the new S&C staff.
He's a guy thrusted into the LT position as a very young rookie. I think at times he showed out really, really well - other times, not so well. But you can't NOT be excited and impressed by his toughness, strength and potential. He was a #9 for a reason - to be the cornerstone LT - and he still has a great chance to be just that.
about Flowers being out of position were because of how much he struggled at LT. Just my perception.
It's been a long time since the Giants had a rookie LT. Beatty broke in at RT and excelled there before moving to LT the end of year 2 where he also did well early on (after breaking his leg).
People probably unfairly expected Flowers to be better.
And of course there were a variety of reasons for Flowers' struggles, his HAS, he was a rookie and started from day 1, he had a LG playing next to him who was new to LG, etc.
but those who deny Flowers struggled are equally as wrong as those who say he's a natural RT playing out of position.
Just my opinion, but Flaherty took the fall here and probably rightfully so, not just for Flowers but for the lack of a single development OL being effectively developed, so the coaching change was a good time to jettison Flaherty, but if Flowers struggles like last year under Solari, I do think he could be moved off LT.
He was going to play right tackle but be moved to left tackle in the future, we all know this, we also all know that he played left tackle because of Beatty, and I am not knocking his play at left tackle at all, that is not why I think he should play right tackle. I do not see a player with great feet and I see a player that is just too stiff, not fluid at all, to me he looks more like a mauler, a smashmouth player, not that you can't have that type at left tackle, but when you are not natural at the position, which stiff and not great feet mean, then I do not see him as ever being a very good left tackle, maybe a decent left tackle or a good player, above average, not great. I see a great right tackle.
With a well thought of OL coach, a full NFL year under his belt and after a full NFL offseason and now 2 weeks into his 2nd training camp, one has to question if he NYG took an OT at 9 who will struggle with technique his entire career....
I have no doubt Flowers was drafted to play the LT position. Like B in A wrote just above, the kid was the 9th pick in the draft and that isn't usually where you'd pick a RT. The post pick comments by Ross, TC and JR are interesting but they were probably trying to be vague b/c we still had Beatty as a starter at LT.
I also thought the most interesting thing about this article was the mention that Flowers and Flaherty didn't get along. I don't remember hearing anything about that...
I'm optimistic about Flowers. The kid needs coaching but the talent and desire and attitude seem to be there.
People probably unfairly expected Flowers to be better.
This seems to be the pattern; fans have the patience of preschoolers, abd expect way too much out of the rookies. When the rookies don't immediately perform to those inflated expectations they are labelled busts, or they are playing out of position. We saw this with Flowers, Odi, and Collins last year, and I guarantee everyone will jump all over this year's class if they don't immediately set the NFL on fire.
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart."{/quote]
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart."{/quote]
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
Snee Scouts Flowers - ( New Window )
But where did he say "scary bad?" Did I miss that?
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart."{/quote]
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
Snee Scouts Flowers - ( New Window )
But where did he say "scary bad?" Did I miss that?
Most likely more hyperbole and made up bullshit from our resident fraud.
reading the quote? pick your term. Scary bad. Stinks. Not nearly good enough for the pro level.
That's just from 1 article too. Theres also plenty of criticism from O'Hara and Snee in other articles if you care to research. Again, the fact he has shitty technique is plain as day. Not exactly a debatable point.
Some hyperbole but Snee's scouting report of Flowers below Â
.....“I think he’s a big, obviously a large man,” Snee said. “Just from watching the tape early on I was impressed.”
Impressed, but not blown away. Snee sees some real technical flaws that Flowers must clean up if he is to excel at the next level.
Pat Flaherty, the Giants’ offensive line coach, suggested Snee might enjoy studying tape of players in this year’s NFL draft. Snee was intrigued. Flaherty gave him a list of a dozen offensive-line prospects, ranging from surefire first-round picks all the way down to possible undrafted free agents. Snee quietly hunkered down in a room at the team facility, evaluated the tapes and wrote a report according to the Giants’ guidelines. Flaherty graded the reports.
Flaherty did not instruct Snee to look at Flowers, but Snee did it anyway, breaking down the tape of two Miami games, at Nebraska on Sept. 20 (a 41-31 Miami loss) and Dec. 27 against South Carolina in the Independence Bowl (a 24-21 Miami loss). Flowers started at left tackle in both games.
Snee’s findings:
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart.
“This is one thing I definitely noticed, he was a different player at the end of the year than he was in the beginning, in a good way. The Nebraska game, he didn’t have a good game, to be honest with you. At the end of the year, the false steps that I saw early on were eliminated, which was good. Hand placement had improved.
“There were a couple of times where one of the South Carolina guys tried to cheap-shot his teammate and he ran over. As a lineman, you want to know your teammates have your back. I’m not asking a guy to get in a fight, but there are times when your buddy’s in need, you want to see the guy run over there, as opposed to him just standing there, watching. That part was nice to see.’’
The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’.....
Yeah. Nowhere in the article does he use the term "scary bad".. it's more of your made up bullshit.
Quote:
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart.
“This is one thing I definitely noticed, he was a different player at the end of the year than he was in the beginning, in a good way. The Nebraska game, he didn’t have a good game, to be honest with you. At the end of the year, the false steps that I saw early on were eliminated, which was good. Hand placement had improved.
“There were a couple of times where one of the South Carolina guys tried to cheap-shot his teammate and he ran over. As a lineman, you want to know your teammates have your back. I’m not asking a guy to get in a fight, but there are times when your buddy’s in need, you want to see the guy run over there, as opposed to him just standing there, watching. That part was nice to see.’’
Nowhere did he say anything about him being "scary bad" - not even close. If anything, he intimated that it's typical of the college OL entering the pros to have similar issues with technique.
Your "scary bad" statement reeks of having an agenda.
Do during their rookie seasons? Either one make All-Pro? I don't think so. Give him another year at LT.. we have no other option right now anyway. And please stop with the sprained ankle bullshit, he doesn't need any excuses, he got his ass kicked by the speed of the game last year, he could have had a three healthy ankles and he would've gotten his ass kicked last year. He's the no.9 overall pick, he better improve this season and I believe he will, let's not call him a bust without allowing him the proper opportunity, like I said, how many rookies dominate the starting left tackle spot? Probably the hardest position to step into as a rookie. I wouldn't be so endorsing as BB'56 is but if anything, he has displayed some much need toughness and nastiness to this team.
Do during their rookie seasons? Either one make All-Pro? I don't think so. Give him another year at LT.. we have no other option right now anyway. And please stop with the sprained ankle bullshit, he doesn't need any excuses, he got his ass kicked by the speed of the game last year, he could have had a three healthy ankles and he would've gotten his ass kicked last year. He's the no.9 overall pick, he better improve this season and I believe he will, let's not call him a bust without allowing him the proper opportunity, like I said, how many rookies dominate the starting left tackle spot? Probably the hardest position to step into as a rookie. I wouldn't be so endorsing as BB'56 is but if anything, he has displayed some much need toughness and nastiness to this team.
Never saw him in college; couldn't make a definitive (fan-wise) opinion because of his year long HAS..My endorsement is with, as you put it, his nastiness and toughness as well as what appears to be a non-stop work ethic...
Will he move over to RT some day? Maybe. There are a bunch of scenarios you can work up in your imagination for the 2017 season.
This is 2016, and he has to perform at a high level as a left tackle.
Erek Flowers is likely the best LT on the roster, Pugh is a very close second best followed by Newhouse and Stingley (I'd guess).
LT's are usually not found in the UFA market. Usually, they are developed by the OL coach & team, OR they are 1st or 2nd round picks. Yes, you get an occasional late round pick that makes good, but most NFL LT's (percentage majority) are first round picks.
Since we'll be picking 32nd and last in round 1 in 2017 (sarcastic smile...on me....), maybe we take a LT? A small school guy who you know is BOOM or BUST? We will see, but my thinking is Flowers is a superb RT but only adequate LT when it comes to overall pass protection.
With the ability to become Kareem McKenzie two if he fails at LT. His size, power and natural ability are ideal for a dominant LT, his technique and improvement so far are not. It takes some cats longer to get it. It's not an apples to apples comparison but Kevin Boothe was cut from a putrid Raiders team and was a starter on a Super Bowl champion here. Guys can improve by leaps and bounds and Flowers is still a young, very raw kid at 22. We shall see.
He played 15 games as a rookie LT and through an injury and still played better than all of the so called can't miss LT of the last 5 years. I am not worried about him
He played 15 games as a rookie LT and through an injury and still played better than all of the so called can't miss LT of the last 5 years. I am not worried about him
Based on last year's performance; off-season OTA reports and the first week's consolidated camp report(s) plus today's readings, I am taking it that LT Flowers should be improved in his "directly ahead run blocking" and pass protection against bull rushers.
However, he will continue to struggle against speed rusher's.
and he was a TE for a couple years, but...was developed by mouse mcnally.
I don't see how he compares to Flowers.
Point is no one steps in day 1 at Left Tackle and displays dominance. All Pro OT's like Trent Williams, Jason Peters and Tyron Smith had their share of struggles year one as well. It takes more than one season because it's the hardest position to play for a rookie other than QB without a doubt. Now what does the Round in which the starting LT's in the past 10 SB's have to do with anything? Does it mean we should wait until Round 3 to select a tackle??
Before making any firm judgments of his future position. He was such a young kid which was one of the reason they drafted him at 9. They new his technique needed work but that was outweighed by his youth and upside. I am willing to bet by the end of the year he will have begun to translate some of these lessons learned to the playing field and this discussion will be moot. Plus you can teach technique but you can't teach toughness
Before making any firm judgments of his future position. He was such a young kid which was one of the reason they drafted him at 9. They new his technique needed work but that was outweighed by his youth and upside. I am willing to bet by the end of the year he will have begun to translate some of these lessons learned to the playing field and this discussion will be moot. Plus you can teach technique but you can't teach toughness
Reb8thVA, yep, you can't teach toughness and desire. Erek Flowers is a guy with upside, no doubt. He came out of college and it was noted in scouting reports he'd need technique work.
I think he'll get better as the season moves along. I think of David Diehl, our 5th round pick who started at OG. Well, it took him time to work his way up to being a legit LT. I do believe Erek Flowers will definitely be a better run blocker this year along with J. Pugh, W. Richburg, J. Jerry, the TE's, the Hback and the FB (Johnson).
Simply put, going against Olivier Vernon day in and day out in camp will only make Erek Flowers better. I truly believe that.
Go Erek, Go Giants!
Reb8thVA: was it you that I met at a Giants game a decade or so ago with HopeJ (God bless her soul...)?
and he was a TE for a couple years, but...was developed by mouse mcnally.
I don't see how he compares to Flowers.
Point is no one steps in day 1 at Left Tackle and displays dominance. All Pro OT's like Trent Williams, Jason Peters and Tyron Smith had their share of struggles year one as well. It takes more than one season because it's the hardest position to play for a rookie other than QB without a doubt. Now what does the Round in which the starting LT's in the past 10 SB's have to do with anything? Does it mean we should wait until Round 3 to select a tackle??
I posted the draft round of the left tackles in the past 10 SB's because someone (SGmen?) said left tackles are not typically obtained as free agents and most commonly are 1st or 2nd round draft picks.
I was only showing some data from successful teams the past 10 years to illustrate that assumption is not necessarily true.
partly from improved health and partly from experience and coaching. But I hope the improvement is more than slight.
I think Friday night will be telling. If we don't hear his name for 15 or so snaps that starters get that is good news for us.
My concern is that quick edge rushers may be the "thorn in his side" all year. Going against Vernon is the best training camp work you can get and he should be the better for that experience.
I also look forward to reading InsideFootball's camp report, hopefully by Sunday night it goes out, to assess his progress more.
Like Tyron Smith did, for two years before he moved to LT. Like Will Beatty did, subbing in at RT (and TE) during his rookie season. Trent Williams began his career at LT, but he had the benefit of playing with many more seasoned veterans on his O-Line, particularly at LG and C, and it still took him two years to really elevate his game.
I'd give Flowers at least another year to see if he's the goods at LT.
RE: Flowers did not have the luxury of beginning his career at RT... Â
Like Tyron Smith did, for two years before he moved to LT. Like Will Beatty did, subbing in at RT (and TE) during his rookie season. Trent Williams began his career at LT, but he had the benefit of playing with many more seasoned veterans on his O-Line, particularly at LG and C, and it still took him two years to really elevate his game.
I'd give Flowers at least another year to see if he's the goods at LT.
Yes, we should not judge LT E. Flowers just yet, especially because pre-season is far from over and he may just "get it" as time goes along.
I think it was our old OC K. Gillbride who noted that when LT W. Beatty tore his pec, the Giants plans were tossed into the garbage. I still honestly believe that if both W. Beatty and JPP had been HEALTHY throughout last year we'd have made the playoffs. Not saying we'd have been very good but if we had nipped Dallas, ATL to start the season and won 2 other close games later we are a bad team with a 10-6 record. Ah, the possibilities lost due to injury and by having young players thrust into roles they aren't ready for yet.
I have never seen an OL get in a stance the way he is. His feet are a mile apart, he is bending at his waist, amd he looked very much out of breath.
You can check this out in Em's video posted below. I will get the link and the time you can focus on it.
I have no doubt that Flowers will improve with time, coaching, and working against OV.
Link - ( New Window )
News to me!
Flowers has questionable technique. It's known, and it was pointed out multiple times over his rookie year by former Giants linemen. He didn't have a particularly good year in protection, and injuries played a role in that, but also his game needed work.
Yet he's getting a firm benefit of the doubt by many, perhaps because of his size and strength and personality.
I have no problem with it, but I compare it to a guy like Will Beatty, who I don't believe was singled out to such a degree, and was generally known as a 'good technician' at the position, and people soured on him almost immediately because he doesn't "look" like a lineman.
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Based on what? Him being mediocre last year?
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Wrong. They drafted him before Beatty's shit happened and they said on the night they drafted him that they want and think he can be a cornerstone LT.
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Exactly. And, I would like to see what he has (when the games begin again) with two healthy legs...Technique or not, that High ankle sprain most likely made him a shell of what he could be..Imo
This is 2016, and he has to perform at a high level as a left tackle.
He starts the paragraph with looking at three running plays and talks about his first step, then drifting laterally. He then closes with Vernon pushing Flowers into the backfield with regularity, which I would assume was on pass plays, not run plays as the DE will be finding a ball carrier and not walking back OTs. So, he has a good first step in the run game, then "drifts laterally"? This is a WCO zone scheme, it requires movement, how else would Flowers move in a scheme that requires it?
If his hands got too far out in front of him and he was leaning, OK, I get that, but drifting laterally? That's part and parcel to his job on a running play so that critique shows a hole in Ranaan's understanding of what he's watching in the scheme of a play. You can focus on a player, ignore the play and make an incorrect assumption because "drifting laterally" or moving laterally is what this OL will do often in this offense, even on passing downs as we've seen the waggles and rollout passes. It's not his lateral movement, it's his feet being squared up under his shoulder pads and his hands staying inside that are the issue. Ranaan points that out correctly but his overall assessment in that paragraph is all over the place and quite frankly flawed.
That said, I thought he played well for a rookie and I would not categorize his play as below average as Raanan did. Once they moved him there, I think the commitment has to be there to develop him as their LT for the next decade. They are having enough trouble finding a RT, so I fail to see how moving him to RT is a better option. Who plays LT in that scenario?
As for the attitude, that was news to me. From day one, I was impressed with his attitude. He was one of their hardest workers last summer and he said all of the right things.
Richburg is now a borderline elite interior lineman in my eyes. Flowers still has a chance to make a similar jump.
He's a big mean mofo, the last guy on the team I'd want to fight.
Richburg is now a borderline elite interior lineman in my eyes. Flowers still has a chance to make a similar jump.
He's a big mean mofo, the last guy on the team I'd want to fight.
Richburg was forced to play OG as a rookie, though.. moving to his natural position had a lot to do with the major jump he made from year 1 to year 2.
I'd like to see Flowers stay at LT for now because I still think he can play there but needs more experience. It could certainly turn out that he's just much better suited to play RT, though. Time will tell.
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Flowers would be at RT, as was the plan before Beatty shit the crib.
They see Flowers as a LT. They said that all along.
It makes zero sense to move him back and forth (BBI would be bitching about that).
Let him grow at LT.
Wrong. They drafted him before Beatty's shit happened and they said on the night they drafted him that they want and think he can be a cornerstone LT.
As I said- They drafted him #9 overall to be the LT of the future. The "future" turned into starting at LT as a rookie because of Beatty's injuries. He was supposed to be the RT in 2015.
BBI bitches that he's not at RT, while ignoring fact they lost their LT last year (Beatty), pushing the timeline up.
Got it?
The experts can address his overall technique and what needs to change. No problem with that at all. But if he's flawed and STILL learning AND on top of that has to deal with a HAS as well, I think what he accomplished last year was rather remarkable, all things considered..Imo
Hopefully this year, with reasonable health, we can see the full extent of his improvement and production. I'd like to see what he does when he does not start out behind the injury 8 ball
That said, I thought he played well for a rookie and I would not categorize his play as below average as Raanan did. Once they moved him there, I think the commitment has to be there to develop him as their LT for the next decade. They are having enough trouble finding a RT, so I fail to see how moving him to RT is a better option. Who plays LT in that scenario?
As for the attitude, that was news to me. From day one, I was impressed with his attitude. He was one of their hardest workers last summer and he said all of the right things.
They said on draft day he was a LT. Stop with the "revisionist" tin foil hat stuff.
I'll try again:
-The Giants drafted Flowers as the LT of the future.
-The 2015 line was supposed to be:
-Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Flowers
-Beatty got hurt and is no longer on the team (or on a NFL team)
-Flowers' timeline was pushed up, forcing him to LT early.
It made zero sense to bring in a washed-up LT, hindering Flowers' development.
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He can man OLT for me anytime, flaws and all..He'll never stop working..
Based on what? Him being mediocre last year?
Honestly, LT is a difficult position. "Mediocre" is likely an accomplishment for a rookie thrust into the LT role.
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
Quote:
In comment 13064508 Big Blue '56 said:
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He can man OLT for me anytime, flaws and all..He'll never stop working..
Based on what? Him being mediocre last year?
Honestly, LT is a difficult position. "Mediocre" is likely an accomplishment for a rookie thrust into the LT role.
It's also an accomplishment for a chris r post, usually reserved for one that doesn't end in a question mark.
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
Let's be fair and not lump all of us lamenting Pugh's second year..I and others on here saw it for what WE THINK it was; a man playing most of the year with one arm..
The revisionist part is that somewhere along the way, he's now a RT playing out of position at LT.
For revisionist draft history you need to look at Pugh. At draft time, he was drafted to be a right tackle. after year one, where he did OK at RT, we were crowing about having settled the RT spot. After he didn't do so well in his sophomore year, suddenly the chant was that we had drafted him to be a guard all along.
How is Flowers playing "out of position" exactly? The team drafted him to be a LT, the position he played in college.
As for Pugh- It was long speculated that his best position may be G, and scouts indicated he could play all along the OL. He was our best OL at RT his rookie year.
Stop making shit up. The internet is a beautiful thing- it allows you to research shit so you don't sound like an idiot.
I've linked Pugh's draft profile.
Pugh - ( New Window )
Here are Jerry Reese's words. The way he phrases it doesn't sound too confident to me that the Giants are counting on this guy becoming the LT of the future. He thinks he could play LT but also sounds like he's deferring to the coaches. I agree though Beatty's torn pec took the decision away.
Q: Do you project him as a possible left tackle?
A: Yeah, you would think so. You would think he can play left tackle. He could play right tackle. We project him as a really good football player, first, and where he ends up, that’s up to our coaches.
And here are Tom Coughlin's words. Neither seem emphatic he has to be a left tackle.
Q: Is he a right tackle or a left tackle?
A: He can be either side. He [was] a left tackle last year, but he has the size and so on and so forth to play a lot of spots if you so desire. We think he is a tackle.
Here are Marc Ross's words.
Q: Where do you see him position-wise?
A: Tackle, for sure. He can play [either side]. He has done that. He played right tackle as a freshman. He played left tackle the last two years, so wherever the coaches want to play him and feel most comfortable right now, but I feel he can do either tackle spot.
Sounds like the front office and HC left open the possibility for him to play RT.
Injuries forced their hand, and the future became 2015.
Injuries forced their hand, and the future became 2015.
Thanks Jon. Exactly what I was getting at.
Looked to me that he really struggled against the speedy, smaller speed rusher with a quick first step. But keep in mind, a lot of these guys will set him up over and over and over again - then either bull rush him or use speed.
He plays high at times, his hips are up, and he loses leverage on his heels and sometimes in his bucket step. That's why we've seen smaller DEs attack him with power - not only speed.
But when he gets his hands inside the rusher and uses his strength and unbelieveable power from his long arms there is no chance for the defender - play over. But it's all in his feet.
He wasn't coached up properly in Miami and relied solely on his size and strength to dominate. That's not going to work in the pro game. If anyone will get him right, it's a guy like Solari and hopefully the new S&C staff.
He's a guy thrusted into the LT position as a very young rookie. I think at times he showed out really, really well - other times, not so well. But you can't NOT be excited and impressed by his toughness, strength and potential. He was a #9 for a reason - to be the cornerstone LT - and he still has a great chance to be just that.
Of course I see a lot of posts on BBI that he's a RT.
But the team doesn't seem to agree with that. They drafted him to be the LT at some point.
It's been a long time since the Giants had a rookie LT. Beatty broke in at RT and excelled there before moving to LT the end of year 2 where he also did well early on (after breaking his leg).
People probably unfairly expected Flowers to be better.
And of course there were a variety of reasons for Flowers' struggles, his HAS, he was a rookie and started from day 1, he had a LG playing next to him who was new to LG, etc.
but those who deny Flowers struggled are equally as wrong as those who say he's a natural RT playing out of position.
Just my opinion, but Flaherty took the fall here and probably rightfully so, not just for Flowers but for the lack of a single development OL being effectively developed, so the coaching change was a good time to jettison Flaherty, but if Flowers struggles like last year under Solari, I do think he could be moved off LT.
I also thought the most interesting thing about this article was the mention that Flowers and Flaherty didn't get along. I don't remember hearing anything about that...
I'm optimistic about Flowers. The kid needs coaching but the talent and desire and attitude seem to be there.
i'm see what PaulN sees, and if it was up to me we would've either signed a LT in free agency or played Pugh there
i'm see what PaulN sees, and if it was up to me we would've either signed a LT in free agency or played Pugh there
Liar.....fraud
Get lost piss boy
This seems to be the pattern; fans have the patience of preschoolers, abd expect way too much out of the rookies. When the rookies don't immediately perform to those inflated expectations they are labelled busts, or they are playing out of position. We saw this with Flowers, Odi, and Collins last year, and I guarantee everyone will jump all over this year's class if they don't immediately set the NFL on fire.
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when we drafted him/he scouted him: his technique is scary bad. he was a big time project. and it appears he may not have the coachability to improve
i'm see what PaulN sees, and if it was up to me we would've either signed a LT in free agency or played Pugh there
Liar.....fraud
Get lost piss boy
You're full of shit phillygiant. Every post by you is an unsolicited insult. Typical philly trash.
Chris Snee did say that and if you didn't hear about it, I don't care.
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
Snee Scouts Flowers - ( New Window )
(You shouldn't need to hear it from Snee.)
Quote:
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart."{/quote]
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
Snee Scouts Flowers - ( New Window )
But where did he say "scary bad?" Did I miss that?
Quote:
Quote:
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart."{/quote]
If that isn't nicely saying the guy has shitty technque......He also goes onto say he - and the Giants - envision him at RT which I and PaulN have stated above:
[quote]The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’
So we initially envision Flowers at RT, he goes thru a year of stinking up the joint at LT and we are now refusing to move him? Makes a lot of sense.....
Snee Scouts Flowers - ( New Window )
But where did he say "scary bad?" Did I miss that?
Most likely more hyperbole and made up bullshit from our resident fraud.
That's just from 1 article too. Theres also plenty of criticism from O'Hara and Snee in other articles if you care to research. Again, the fact he has shitty technique is plain as day. Not exactly a debatable point.
Impressed, but not blown away. Snee sees some real technical flaws that Flowers must clean up if he is to excel at the next level.
Pat Flaherty, the Giants’ offensive line coach, suggested Snee might enjoy studying tape of players in this year’s NFL draft. Snee was intrigued. Flaherty gave him a list of a dozen offensive-line prospects, ranging from surefire first-round picks all the way down to possible undrafted free agents. Snee quietly hunkered down in a room at the team facility, evaluated the tapes and wrote a report according to the Giants’ guidelines. Flaherty graded the reports.
Flaherty did not instruct Snee to look at Flowers, but Snee did it anyway, breaking down the tape of two Miami games, at Nebraska on Sept. 20 (a 41-31 Miami loss) and Dec. 27 against South Carolina in the Independence Bowl (a 24-21 Miami loss). Flowers started at left tackle in both games.
Snee’s findings:
“Technically, he’s got work to do, which a lot of these college kids do,’’ Snee said. “With hand placement, his hands are often outside. I remember distinctly writing I was impressed with how he could anchor and hold his own with his hand placement being so poor. Physically, he’s strong up top because he was able to get away with the technical errors. I read an article where he said he knows he has work to do, too. That’s half the battle, he knows he’s got to clean that up because you’re not going to be able to get away with technique errors at this level, the defensive line will eat you apart.
“This is one thing I definitely noticed, he was a different player at the end of the year than he was in the beginning, in a good way. The Nebraska game, he didn’t have a good game, to be honest with you. At the end of the year, the false steps that I saw early on were eliminated, which was good. Hand placement had improved.
“There were a couple of times where one of the South Carolina guys tried to cheap-shot his teammate and he ran over. As a lineman, you want to know your teammates have your back. I’m not asking a guy to get in a fight, but there are times when your buddy’s in need, you want to see the guy run over there, as opposed to him just standing there, watching. That part was nice to see.’’
The Giants envision Flowers as a right tackle. Snee concurs.
“In my opinion, yes, especially when I speak of the technique things,’’ Snee said. “Left tackle is a position where you play, you can’t have these rocker steps or false steps, you have to be very quick and fluid out of your set.’’.....
Link - ( New Window )
“This is one thing I definitely noticed, he was a different player at the end of the year than he was in the beginning, in a good way. The Nebraska game, he didn’t have a good game, to be honest with you. At the end of the year, the false steps that I saw early on were eliminated, which was good. Hand placement had improved.
“There were a couple of times where one of the South Carolina guys tried to cheap-shot his teammate and he ran over. As a lineman, you want to know your teammates have your back. I’m not asking a guy to get in a fight, but there are times when your buddy’s in need, you want to see the guy run over there, as opposed to him just standing there, watching. That part was nice to see.’’
"Scary bad."
Get lost, you suck.
Nowhere did he say anything about him being "scary bad" - not even close. If anything, he intimated that it's typical of the college OL entering the pros to have similar issues with technique.
Your "scary bad" statement reeks of having an agenda.
I've never seen a bbi'ers reputation, fall this far from grace, as fast as area junc has.
What an abomination.
Can we focus on 2016 & 2017 first?
Quote:
In comment 13064826 area junc said:
Quote:
when we drafted him/he scouted him: his technique is scary bad. he was a big time project. and it appears he may not have the coachability to improve
i'm see what PaulN sees, and if it was up to me we would've either signed a LT in free agency or played Pugh there
Liar.....fraud
Get lost piss boy
You're full of shit phillygiant. Every post by you is an unsolicited insult. Typical philly trash.
Chris Snee did say that and if you didn't hear about it, I don't care.
Because you are a liar and a fraud
You lied about the Davis situation....PERIOD
You are a joke and the majority of this board feels the exact same way about you
Never saw him in college; couldn't make a definitive (fan-wise) opinion because of his year long HAS..My endorsement is with, as you put it, his nastiness and toughness as well as what appears to be a non-stop work ethic...
I don't see how he compares to Flowers.
This is 2016, and he has to perform at a high level as a left tackle.
LT's are usually not found in the UFA market. Usually, they are developed by the OL coach & team, OR they are 1st or 2nd round picks. Yes, you get an occasional late round pick that makes good, but most NFL LT's (percentage majority) are first round picks.
Since we'll be picking 32nd and last in round 1 in 2017 (sarcastic smile...on me....), maybe we take a LT? A small school guy who you know is BOOM or BUST? We will see, but my thinking is Flowers is a superb RT but only adequate LT when it comes to overall pass protection.
DEN (W): Chris Harris (3rd round)
CAR (L): Michael Oher (UFA)
SB XLIX
NE (W) Nate Solder (1st)
SEA (L) Russell Okung (1st)
SBXLVIII
SEA (W) Russell Okung (1st)
DEN (L) Chris Clark (UDFA)
SBXLVII
BAL (W) Bryant McKinnie (UFA)
SF (L) Joe Staley (1st)
SBXLVI
NYG (W) David Diehl (5th)
NE (L) Matt Light (2nd)
SBXLV
GB (W) Chad Clifton (2nd)
PIT (L) John Scott (UFA)
SBXLIV
NO (W) Jermon Bushrod (5th)
IND (L) Charlie Johnson (6th)
SBXLIII
PIT (W) Max Starks (3rd)
AZ (L) Mike Gandy (3rd)
SBXLII
NYG (W) David Diehl (5th)
NE (L) Matt Light (2nd)
SBXLI
IND (W) Tarik Glenn (1st)
CHI (L) John Tait (UFA)
Seems like very strong reach if anyone tries to make one to team success and having to get a LT in the 1st or 2nd round.
8 out of 20 potential SB left tackles came directly to their team in the first or second round.
60% did not.
I believe if you expand to playoff teams that 60% gets higher. but I'm not doing that, don't have time.
However, he will continue to struggle against speed rusher's.
I don't see how he compares to Flowers.
Point is no one steps in day 1 at Left Tackle and displays dominance. All Pro OT's like Trent Williams, Jason Peters and Tyron Smith had their share of struggles year one as well. It takes more than one season because it's the hardest position to play for a rookie other than QB without a doubt. Now what does the Round in which the starting LT's in the past 10 SB's have to do with anything? Does it mean we should wait until Round 3 to select a tackle??
So you're predicting 2 very unspectacular years for him? Will he at least be a very good RT?
I think he'll get better as the season moves along. I think of David Diehl, our 5th round pick who started at OG. Well, it took him time to work his way up to being a legit LT. I do believe Erek Flowers will definitely be a better run blocker this year along with J. Pugh, W. Richburg, J. Jerry, the TE's, the Hback and the FB (Johnson).
Simply put, going against Olivier Vernon day in and day out in camp will only make Erek Flowers better. I truly believe that.
Go Erek, Go Giants!
Reb8thVA: was it you that I met at a Giants game a decade or so ago with HopeJ (God bless her soul...)?
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and he was a TE for a couple years, but...was developed by mouse mcnally.
I don't see how he compares to Flowers.
Point is no one steps in day 1 at Left Tackle and displays dominance. All Pro OT's like Trent Williams, Jason Peters and Tyron Smith had their share of struggles year one as well. It takes more than one season because it's the hardest position to play for a rookie other than QB without a doubt. Now what does the Round in which the starting LT's in the past 10 SB's have to do with anything? Does it mean we should wait until Round 3 to select a tackle??
I posted the draft round of the left tackles in the past 10 SB's because someone (SGmen?) said left tackles are not typically obtained as free agents and most commonly are 1st or 2nd round draft picks.
I was only showing some data from successful teams the past 10 years to illustrate that assumption is not necessarily true.
Bottom line is Snee was pretty negative about Flowers.
My concern is that quick edge rushers may be the "thorn in his side" all year. Going against Vernon is the best training camp work you can get and he should be the better for that experience.
I also look forward to reading InsideFootball's camp report, hopefully by Sunday night it goes out, to assess his progress more.
...right tackle in the NFL one day.
...right tackle in the NFL one day.
Perhaps, but in the meantime I will see how good of an OLT he can be with two healthy legs
I'd give Flowers at least another year to see if he's the goods at LT.
I'd give Flowers at least another year to see if he's the goods at LT.
I think it was our old OC K. Gillbride who noted that when LT W. Beatty tore his pec, the Giants plans were tossed into the garbage. I still honestly believe that if both W. Beatty and JPP had been HEALTHY throughout last year we'd have made the playoffs. Not saying we'd have been very good but if we had nipped Dallas, ATL to start the season and won 2 other close games later we are a bad team with a 10-6 record. Ah, the possibilities lost due to injury and by having young players thrust into roles they aren't ready for yet.