I thought the "pushing the chips to the middle of the table" line took alot of guts and was a pretty cool moment for him.
I loved the way he ran his offenses, always seemed creative and aggressive.
Unfortunately he could not overcome the team's lack of preparation in SB 35. Maybe the Ravens were so good that year (at least defensively) that it wouldnt have made a difference in the outcome, but I thought we could have put up a better fight than we did. Amani Toomer has talked about this several times as the years have gone by.
He may have also overplayed his hand in subsequent HC interviews and his tenure in Baltimore with Billick was odd to say the least.
Seems like a great guy though and his son is a very bight special teams coach with LA.
My soft spot for Fassel stems from where I was in my life when he was here. I was too young to appreciate the 86-90 teams. We fuckin blew my entire childhood. That sucked bad. He brought us some sustained success. I appreciate that.
I always felt the team won in spite of him, and was elated when he left. Evidently the league viewed him similarly, as he has never been a HC anywhere else.
I always felt the team won in spite of him, and was elated when he left. Evidently the league viewed him similarly, as he has never been a HC anywhere else.
I always felt the team won in spite of him, and was elated when he left. Evidently the league viewed him similarly, as he has never been a HC anywhere else.
How does a team win in spite of the coach?
Some teams have enough talent that they can overcome poor coaching.
I always felt the team won in spite of him, and was elated when he left. Evidently the league viewed him similarly, as he has never been a HC anywhere else.
You can not be serious with that comment. The HC does alot more then play calling and roster setting. for fucks sake take it back
You have your opinion, I have mine. Evidently, I'm not the only one with my opinion. At his young age, with a SB appearance on his resume, you would think if he was viewed as such a great coach, teams would be lining up for him to talk the helm. But here we are 15 years later, and not one offer to be an HC for another NFL team. And his good buddy, Brian Billick, who hired him as the OC of the Ravens sent him packing after just two seasons.
that the Giants won "in spite of" Fassel. Those teams weren't exactly world-beaters in terms of talent. Strahan, Armstead, Sehorn, some other guys, sure. But Lomas Brown as your starting LT in a Super Bowl? Chris Calloway your leading WR in a playoff run? Danny Kanell? Dave Brown? I think Fassel got just about everything he could out of those guys.
with the Giants was alot better than what some other head coaches have taken into 2nd and 3rd coaching opportunities.
Agreed - there's definitely something to all the chatter that Fassel screwed up when he had the chance to interview, bc plenty of worse coaches have had no trouble staying in the league a long time. If a bum like Jeff Fisher can coach for life, it's weird Fassel could never get another job
he was such an outstanding coach that since being fired by the Giants, his phone has been ringing off the hook and teams have been lining up for his services.
you can really go by him not getting hired again as to his aptitude.
From most accounts, it has been because of his attitude and some personal ethics. I mean is Josh McDaniels a shitty coach? He hasn't gotten another HC gig. What about Jim Mora Jr. or Mike Nolan? Bobby Petrino is a good example - he wasn't a disaster as a coach, but he had some personal judgment issues. George O'Leary never even took the field as coach because of poor decisions.
A guy like Jim Harbaugh was run out of the NFL because of his jackassery. Who is to say if he'll coach at this level again?
Mike Smith went to a Championship game and made the playoffs several years. His phone isn't ringing off the hook. That doesn't mean these guys are bad coaches, but they all certainly have flaws that may keep them from being hired.
I thought that he had some drinking issues and was a bit
abrasive with his superiors ....
He kind of got black balled in the NFL just a guess .
I didn't mind him as a coach though I think he did fine
with what he had as a team .
And relied heavily on his coordinators Payton and Fox. Both, oddly enough, are better head coaches than he was. That Super Bowl was a coaching shit show and it seemed the Giants Staff had the team poorly prepared. A huge contrast to their next two Super Bowl appearances. This is only my opinion
Other than losing two Super Bowls instead of one? Fassel's career winning% is .522. Fox's is .558, but that's goosed quite a bit by having the good fortune of Peyton Manning deciding to play in Denver. In a similar situation to the Fassel era Giants, he actually had a worse winning% than Fassel and had the same pattern of mediocre years with an occasional good season sprinkled in here and there.
Had success with 2 different teams and we will see how he does in chicago, but I bet he will have success there too. Yes, he had peyton in denver, but who exactly did he have in carolina? Jake delhomme? John fox also got the Broncos into the playoffs with Tim Tebow as his quarterback. I will repeat it again.....Tim Tebow.
Had success with 2 different teams and we will see how he does in chicago, but I bet he will have success there too. Yes, he had peyton in denver, but who exactly did he have in carolina? Jake delhomme? John fox also got the Broncos into the playoffs with Tim Tebow as his quarterback. I will repeat it again.....Tim Tebow.
And Fassel got the Giants into the playoffs with Danny Kanell, who was a demonstrably worse NFL quarterback than Tim Tebow.
The argument can be made that Kanell sucked but after that he had some of the all-time Giants greats playing for him.
Strahan
Barber
Toomer
Way
Cross
Armstead
Hamilton
Sehorn
If we could fill holes in this team with players like that, I'd expect a playoff appearance...
The argument can be made that Kanell sucked but after that he had some of the all-time Giants greats playing for him.
Strahan
Barber
Toomer
Way
Cross
Armstead
Hamilton
Sehorn
If we could fill holes in this team with players like that, I'd expect a playoff appearance...
You could argue TC had much more talent in Jacksonville and didn't make the Super Bowl.
Strahan, Jesse, and Tiki were truly great players. Beyond them, and you're reaching. You've got a bunch of good players, but hardly great players. Howard Cross was a blocking TE who couldn't catch a cold. Charles Way was healthy for a season and a half under Fassel. Toomer did nothing until his fourth season. Sehorn was never close to the same player after his knee injury. Cmon.
How about OL? Remember any of those guys? Greg Bishop, for crissakes.
not a Fassel fan. Average. It was always too much about him.
but I don't think Fassel was assertive enough here. I think he was more or less a yes man who didn't have the strongest personality or will needed to truly build any kind of team with staying power. He was a solid Xs and Os guy who had some warts and he was a good teacher. He could take a bad QB and make him serviceable but outside of that I think he left a lot to be desired. Eventually those weaknesses showed. They always do.
but I don't think Fassel was assertive enough here. I think he was more or less a yes man who didn't have the strongest personality or will needed to truly build any kind of team with staying power. He was a solid Xs and Os guy who had some warts and he was a good teacher. He could take a bad QB and make him serviceable but outside of that I think he left a lot to be desired. Eventually those weaknesses showed. They always do.
So when he told the press to fuck off that "this team is going to the playoffs", that wasn't assertive enough?
but I don't think Fassel was assertive enough here. I think he was more or less a yes man who didn't have the strongest personality or will needed to truly build any kind of team with staying power. He was a solid Xs and Os guy who had some warts and he was a good teacher. He could take a bad QB and make him serviceable but outside of that I think he left a lot to be desired. Eventually those weaknesses showed. They always do.
So when he told the press to fuck off that "this team is going to the playoffs", that wasn't assertive enough?
Not at all my point. WTF does his media relations and lip service crap have to do with team building? Cmon Peter...
I should have added that another one of Fassel's strengths was his media relations and speaking. He did a masterful job of dealing with the media which is one of the biggest reasons why the media went soft on him even in his darkest hour here.
to go over Fassel's tenure here. the proof is in the pudding. You can question the talent but the HC was here long enough to take some of that blame in my book. Fassel was ok. He also coached this team when the division was pretty manageable and when the door opened for the Giants they didn't close. Defend him kill him whichever you want...all I know is the guy's record was pretty good. But no title. He was a PRO. He was OK. If I could go back in time and hire someone else? I would have. That's my take.
to go over Fassel's tenure here. the proof is in the pudding. You can question the talent but the HC was here long enough to take some of that blame in my book. Fassel was ok. He also coached this team when the division was pretty manageable and when the door opened for the Giants they didn't close. Defend him kill him whichever you want...all I know is the guy's record was pretty good. But no title. He was a PRO. He was OK. If I could go back in time and hire someone else? I would have. That's my take.
Has the division been more manageable than it has been over the last 15 years?
the Giants always played hard for Fassel. I never said otherwise. I think his shortcomings manifested in the team building aspects of the paradigm. Fans got on him for some play calling but that was never my beef. I just never trusted his overall eye for team building. Again, I can't prove anything I just go by what my eyes tell me. The fact that he flunked every HC interview the last ten years confirms my beliefs that the guy just didn't have a concrete plan.
But I've come to the conclusion that he wasn't as bad as some fans believed him to be nor as good as others believed.
He was a serviceable coach but nothing special which would also explain why he never got another job as a HC in a league which recycles managers like paper.
to go over Fassel's tenure here. the proof is in the pudding. You can question the talent but the HC was here long enough to take some of that blame in my book. Fassel was ok. He also coached this team when the division was pretty manageable and when the door opened for the Giants they didn't close. Defend him kill him whichever you want...all I know is the guy's record was pretty good. But no title. He was a PRO. He was OK. If I could go back in time and hire someone else? I would have. That's my take.
Has the division been more manageable than it has been over the last 15 years?
You're kidding right? Tell radar to get off your PC.
Here's a snap shot of qbs that fassel's Giants had to deal with
donovon Mcnabb (ascending)
Brad Johnson (for a minute or two)
Jeff George
The corpse of Troy aikman
Quincy carter
Those are the best. And fassel didn't even deal with mcnabb at his best. Even in 2002 fassel was fortunate that mcnabb didn't play that week 17 finale.
Coughlin had to contend with romo in his prime. Vick. Mcnabb in his prime.
The NFC east was much better these last 15 years. And the Giants won two Super Bowls -- the hard way. They beat great teams. Legendary teams. Jesus h Christ.
How many fassel led teams actually defeated a team
I don't want to kill the guy but the Giants never really earned shit under fassel. Everything they got came with some kind of * next to it. The Giants rarely stepped up against the elites of the NFL. It was a stigma they could never shake. I hated the running narrative back then but it be truth even if we all tried to defend them. I know I did.
Owners want to win. They wouldn't ignore a good HC unless the guy carried some serious concerns with him. Don't over think this. There's a reason the guy never got another HC gig.
Fassel was clearly nothing special. And I do think that
but I do fault him on two counts. One, failure to find a decent long snapper in 2003 which became apparent well before the SF game, and his refusal to play Jason Garrett in the SB when Collins got his bell rung in the 1st quarter and played "scared" the rest of the game, consistently missing wide open receivers. With the Giants offense, they should have won that game, and would have won it with Garrett, IMO.
RE: He should have never left that field in San Fran
On the other hand, can you think of a single time that has ever gotten an official to change a call? Particularly when changing the call could cost the home team a game right then and there?
were too easily satisfied. Also Amani Toomer's comments about the lack of prep for that Super Bowl were pretty condemning.
Toomer said something similar about the Giants entering the game against Tampa Bay and not only did they win that game but they went on to win the Super Bowl a few weeks later. You can't always go by what players say or think, especially after a loss. They love to make excuses. Bubba Smith said he was convinced that Don Shula threw Super Bowl III against the Jets.
p.s.-- There is nothing that can be said about Fassel that hasn't also happened under Coughlin, but for Fassel it happened in the playoffs. There have been games under Coughlin in which they've looked woefully unprepared, undisciplined, etc, they've blown big leads in big games. And Coughlin had a lot more talent to work with than Fassel ever had. Until the 2004 season, Fassel's teams had always finished strong, kicking ass in December. Can Coughlin's teams say the same thing? How many times under Coughlin did the team start out 5-2 or 6-2 and then finish out of the playoffs? Even in 2007 and 2011, they almost missed the playoffs because they lost winnable games down the stretch.
p.s.-- And in 2003 the Giants had a starting OL featuring three rookies, David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round), Jeff Roehl (undrafted). There is no comparison between the talent Coughlin had to work with and that which Fassel had to work with.
Since it didn't happen you don't know and
Jimmy Googs : 9:37 pm : link : reply
will never know.
And I am not looking to debate or argue the point.
It didn't happen on the field, but less than 5 minutes after the game, Fassel and the Giants demanded an explanation on the call. Fassel confronted the officials with a couple other coaches before they went to the locker room.
People who say Fassel just accepted the call have been dead wrong, even though this has been pointed out early on.
I think he was decent, and did a pretty good job with some really flawed teams. Like I said, I don't see any substantive difference between him and Fox, only Fox got a second and then a third chance, and Fassel didn't. Look and Fox's Carolina record and then Fassel's Giants record, and they're mostly the same. And far, far less accomplished coaches have gotten multiple opportunities. Rich freaking Kotite got two HC jobs. Ray Rhodes. Mike Mularkey, for God's sake.
He didn't get the correct explanation and said there
Consisted of Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Dusty Zigler, Ron Stone, Luke Pettigout (only Stone was worthy of wearing the uniform) coached the forgettable Mouse McNally. That loss destroyed Jim.
I've always liked him and think all the "country club" crap that BBI accused him of was just that, crap. The players liked him and played hard for him
came out later and apologized regarding the call and the way it was handled. In the postgame rush, the refs dismissed the PI because they thought it happened on the ineligible man downfield. It was actually after the Giants wanted to know what happened in the moments they left the field where the refs got back to the locker room and realized the mistake.
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
came out later and apologized regarding the call and the way it was handled. In the postgame rush, the refs dismissed the PI because they thought it happened on the ineligible man downfield. It was actually after the Giants wanted to know what happened in the moments they left the field where the refs got back to the locker room and realized the mistake.
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
Thanks Fats. It was a correctable error, and my view is they should have always stayed on that field, gotten it rectified and played another untimed down.
came out later and apologized regarding the call and the way it was handled. In the postgame rush, the refs dismissed the PI because they thought it happened on the ineligible man downfield. It was actually after the Giants wanted to know what happened in the moments they left the field where the refs got back to the locker room and realized the mistake.
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
Thanks Fats. It was a correctable error, and my view is they should have always stayed on that field, gotten it rectified and played another untimed down.
I agree that it was a horrible call and that it should have been rectified. But I don't think that any argument would have gotten them to do so in that moment.
Thanks Fats. It was a correctable error, and my view is they should have always stayed on that field, gotten it rectified and played another untimed down
The only explanation I've ever heard on why this didn't happen is that the refs told the Giants sideline that the penalty was on the illegal man downfield and they ran to the tunnel. The Giants on the field headed to the locker room while those that had been in the booth were trying to review what happened. The coaches then gathered off the field and went for the explanation.
what's ridiculous is that it was a completely reversable situation, and while it would've set a precedent, there have been other games that have been affected by a call or an appeal and the outcome altered (see the pine tar game).
but I'd like to address one thing and it would be applicable to any HC in potential trouble.
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
a lot of BBI didn't like him because of his looks. He looked like a librarian instead of a coach. He didn't have a tough looking stache or a jutting chin. He didn't scream and growl. They loved John Fox for being a little round and for giving an enthusiastic thumbs-up after good plays. Now THAT's a football coach!
Fassel deserved to go, and he's no one of the best guys to patrol a giants sideline, but the venom directed at him was just weird at times.
a lot of BBI didn't like him because of his looks. He looked like a librarian instead of a coach. He didn't have a tough looking stache or a jutting chin. He didn't scream and growl. They loved John Fox for being a little round and for giving an enthusiastic thumbs-up after good plays. Now THAT's a football coach!
Fassel deserved to go, and he's no one of the best guys to patrol a giants sideline, but the venom directed at him was just weird at times.
An incomplete post! You forgot the sideline gum-chewing..
but I'd like to address one thing and it would be applicable to any HC in potential trouble.
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
My honest take
Your take or rt's take?
You weren't the target of the speech; the players were and it worked.
RE: RE: I've purposely stayed away from this thread,
but I'd like to address one thing and it would be applicable to any HC in potential trouble.
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
My honest take
Your take or rt's take?
You weren't the target of the speech; the players were and it worked.
My take at the time. I was not on BBI until after that SB..It is my opinion that he was on the hot seat and was gone if we didn't make the playoffs. He had nothing to lose with that speech imho..That the players responded was great. Nothing to do with my feeling at the time..Not understanding why you're finding fault with an opinion I held at the time. You can disagree with it of course, but that's what I felt re his job situation. Nothing to do with how the players responded to it. Two different things
was an amazing teacher of quarterbacks and he was a very smart playcaller. he was able to get his team to play well against better opponents (like the broncos in 98 and many teams in the 97 season). his performance is 1997 in his first year as head coach with danny kannel as his Qb was just awesome. I had high hopes.
however, his teams frequently lost to inferior opponents as the years went on. it was jeckyll and hyde. I have never seen a team go from such a high as the beatdown of the Vikings in the championship game, 41-0, to the 34-7 beatdown received in the super bowl. the meltdown against the niners was the beginning of the end. 2003 was an injury plagued season where everything just fell apart.
ultimately, his legacy is a poor man's sean payton. in retrospect, there is a good argument that after the SF debacle, payton should have been promoted to head coach.
I loved the way he ran his offenses, always seemed creative and aggressive.
Unfortunately he could not overcome the team's lack of preparation in SB 35. Maybe the Ravens were so good that year (at least defensively) that it wouldnt have made a difference in the outcome, but I thought we could have put up a better fight than we did. Amani Toomer has talked about this several times as the years have gone by.
He may have also overplayed his hand in subsequent HC interviews and his tenure in Baltimore with Billick was odd to say the least.
Seems like a great guy though and his son is a very bight special teams coach with LA.
How does a team win in spite of the coach?
Quote:
I always felt the team won in spite of him, and was elated when he left. Evidently the league viewed him similarly, as he has never been a HC anywhere else.
How does a team win in spite of the coach?
You can not be serious with that comment. The HC does alot more then play calling and roster setting. for fucks sake take it back
Getting to a SB with a retread like Collins happens all the time.
Agreed - there's definitely something to all the chatter that Fassel screwed up when he had the chance to interview, bc plenty of worse coaches have had no trouble staying in the league a long time. If a bum like Jeff Fisher can coach for life, it's weird Fassel could never get another job
From most accounts, it has been because of his attitude and some personal ethics. I mean is Josh McDaniels a shitty coach? He hasn't gotten another HC gig. What about Jim Mora Jr. or Mike Nolan? Bobby Petrino is a good example - he wasn't a disaster as a coach, but he had some personal judgment issues. George O'Leary never even took the field as coach because of poor decisions.
A guy like Jim Harbaugh was run out of the NFL because of his jackassery. Who is to say if he'll coach at this level again?
Mike Smith went to a Championship game and made the playoffs several years. His phone isn't ringing off the hook. That doesn't mean these guys are bad coaches, but they all certainly have flaws that may keep them from being hired.
abrasive with his superiors ....
He kind of got black balled in the NFL just a guess .
I didn't mind him as a coach though I think he did fine
with what he had as a team .
And Fassel got the Giants into the playoffs with Danny Kanell, who was a demonstrably worse NFL quarterback than Tim Tebow.
Strahan
Barber
Toomer
Way
Cross
Armstead
Hamilton
Sehorn
If we could fill holes in this team with players like that, I'd expect a playoff appearance...
Strahan
Barber
Toomer
Way
Cross
Armstead
Hamilton
Sehorn
If we could fill holes in this team with players like that, I'd expect a playoff appearance...
You could argue TC had much more talent in Jacksonville and didn't make the Super Bowl.
How about OL? Remember any of those guys? Greg Bishop, for crissakes.
But I agree that a lot worse guys have been given 2 and 3 chances
So when he told the press to fuck off that "this team is going to the playoffs", that wasn't assertive enough?
Quote:
but I don't think Fassel was assertive enough here. I think he was more or less a yes man who didn't have the strongest personality or will needed to truly build any kind of team with staying power. He was a solid Xs and Os guy who had some warts and he was a good teacher. He could take a bad QB and make him serviceable but outside of that I think he left a lot to be desired. Eventually those weaknesses showed. They always do.
So when he told the press to fuck off that "this team is going to the playoffs", that wasn't assertive enough?
Not at all my point. WTF does his media relations and lip service crap have to do with team building? Cmon Peter...
I should have added that another one of Fassel's strengths was his media relations and speaking. He did a masterful job of dealing with the media which is one of the biggest reasons why the media went soft on him even in his darkest hour here.
Has the division been more manageable than it has been over the last 15 years?
He was a serviceable coach but nothing special which would also explain why he never got another job as a HC in a league which recycles managers like paper.
Quote:
to go over Fassel's tenure here. the proof is in the pudding. You can question the talent but the HC was here long enough to take some of that blame in my book. Fassel was ok. He also coached this team when the division was pretty manageable and when the door opened for the Giants they didn't close. Defend him kill him whichever you want...all I know is the guy's record was pretty good. But no title. He was a PRO. He was OK. If I could go back in time and hire someone else? I would have. That's my take.
Has the division been more manageable than it has been over the last 15 years?
You're kidding right? Tell radar to get off your PC.
donovon Mcnabb (ascending)
Brad Johnson (for a minute or two)
Jeff George
The corpse of Troy aikman
Quincy carter
Those are the best. And fassel didn't even deal with mcnabb at his best. Even in 2002 fassel was fortunate that mcnabb didn't play that week 17 finale.
Coughlin had to contend with romo in his prime. Vick. Mcnabb in his prime.
The NFC east was much better these last 15 years. And the Giants won two Super Bowls -- the hard way. They beat great teams. Legendary teams. Jesus h Christ.
I would guess it's around 5. I'm not kidding.
Owners want to win. They wouldn't ignore a good HC unless the guy carried some serious concerns with him. Don't over think this. There's a reason the guy never got another HC gig.
38 points against the 49ers was anemic too
This was always the dumbest criticism. Him throwing a tantrum on the field wouldn't have changed a thing. Not a goddamned thing.
Quote:
until he got a proper explanation of that call. He was embarrassed from the collapse.
This was always the dumbest criticism. Him throwing a tantrum on the field wouldn't have changed a thing. Not a goddamned thing.
Knowing the rules and communicating them when everybody is losing their minds is not a tantrum. Yelling goddamn is...
Quote:
In comment 13066887 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
until he got a proper explanation of that call. He was embarrassed from the collapse.
This was always the dumbest criticism. Him throwing a tantrum on the field wouldn't have changed a thing. Not a goddamned thing.
Knowing the rules and communicating them when everybody is losing their minds is not a tantrum. Yelling goddamn is...
It wouldn't have made a difference. Just like the time Cowher shoved the picture into the ref's pocket.
Who is doing that?
And I am not looking to debate or argue the point.
The EA story about Fassel rocking his NFC title ring around after Super Bowl XXXV didn't exactly endear him to me.
And I am not looking to debate or argue the point.
Again, Cowher had photographic proof that the refs were wrong. He jammed it into the ref's pocket and it did not matter.
Fassel would have had the same result.
But our guys wanted to just take a shower as soon as possible....
But our guys wanted to just take a shower as soon as possible....
There was no chance. They never would have changed the play at the time. The call is the call. There was no review.
Have you EVER seen a call changed that didn't involve replay? Are you serious?
They NEVER change the call. NEVER!
Now you're just being a fucking idiot. It NEVER would have happened.
You're the dumbfuck who thinks they would have changed the call. You're the one who wants to keep going.
If you just admit you're wrong and walk away, this would be over.
p.s.-- There is nothing that can be said about Fassel that hasn't also happened under Coughlin, but for Fassel it happened in the playoffs. There have been games under Coughlin in which they've looked woefully unprepared, undisciplined, etc, they've blown big leads in big games. And Coughlin had a lot more talent to work with than Fassel ever had. Until the 2004 season, Fassel's teams had always finished strong, kicking ass in December. Can Coughlin's teams say the same thing? How many times under Coughlin did the team start out 5-2 or 6-2 and then finish out of the playoffs? Even in 2007 and 2011, they almost missed the playoffs because they lost winnable games down the stretch.
p.s.-- And in 2003 the Giants had a starting OL featuring three rookies, David Diehl (5th round), Wayne Lucier (7th round), Jeff Roehl (undrafted). There is no comparison between the talent Coughlin had to work with and that which Fassel had to work with.
Jimmy Googs : 9:37 pm : link : reply
will never know.
And I am not looking to debate or argue the point.
It didn't happen on the field, but less than 5 minutes after the game, Fassel and the Giants demanded an explanation on the call. Fassel confronted the officials with a couple other coaches before they went to the locker room.
People who say Fassel just accepted the call have been dead wrong, even though this has been pointed out early on.
Consisted of Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker, Dusty Zigler, Ron Stone, Luke Pettigout (only Stone was worthy of wearing the uniform) coached the forgettable Mouse McNally. That loss destroyed Jim.
I've always liked him and think all the "country club" crap that BBI accused him of was just that, crap. The players liked him and played hard for him
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
Thanks Fats. It was a correctable error, and my view is they should have always stayed on that field, gotten it rectified and played another untimed down.
The Armstead fumble return that got called back was bullshit and changed the momentum of the game.
We may still have lost but 17-13 would have been a lot better of a loss!
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came out later and apologized regarding the call and the way it was handled. In the postgame rush, the refs dismissed the PI because they thought it happened on the ineligible man downfield. It was actually after the Giants wanted to know what happened in the moments they left the field where the refs got back to the locker room and realized the mistake.
Green (who was only a back judge then), admitted that they realized the error, but didn't feel they could correct it.
Giant Mike doesn't post much anymore, but he can attest that I was adamant that because it was a correctable error that I thought 100% they would bring the teams back out of the locker room, and when they didn't, I even floated out crazy talk that they'd replay the down prior to the game in TB the following week.
Thanks Fats. It was a correctable error, and my view is they should have always stayed on that field, gotten it rectified and played another untimed down.
I agree that it was a horrible call and that it should have been rectified. But I don't think that any argument would have gotten them to do so in that moment.
It is surprising he hasn't landed a job. Granted, there are only 32 jobs (and 32 OCs) but it seems strange to me he's not involved at some level.
The only explanation I've ever heard on why this didn't happen is that the refs told the Giants sideline that the penalty was on the illegal man downfield and they ran to the tunnel. The Giants on the field headed to the locker room while those that had been in the booth were trying to review what happened. The coaches then gathered off the field and went for the explanation.
what's ridiculous is that it was a completely reversable situation, and while it would've set a precedent, there have been other games that have been affected by a call or an appeal and the outcome altered (see the pine tar game).
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
My honest take
Fassel deserved to go, and he's no one of the best guys to patrol a giants sideline, but the venom directed at him was just weird at times.
Fassel deserved to go, and he's no one of the best guys to patrol a giants sideline, but the venom directed at him was just weird at times.
An incomplete post! You forgot the sideline gum-chewing..
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
My honest take
You weren't the target of the speech; the players were and it worked.
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but I'd like to address one thing and it would be applicable to any HC in potential trouble.
Even when it occurred, I was never moved by his table chips speech. To me, he absolutely had NOTHING TO LOSE. If we fucked up down the stretch he was gone. I believe he was absolutely on the hot seat. I would have said/done what he did as he had ZERO to pose, imo.
My honest take
Your take or rt's take?
You weren't the target of the speech; the players were and it worked.
My take at the time. I was not on BBI until after that SB..It is my opinion that he was on the hot seat and was gone if we didn't make the playoffs. He had nothing to lose with that speech imho..That the players responded was great. Nothing to do with my feeling at the time..Not understanding why you're finding fault with an opinion I held at the time. You can disagree with it of course, but that's what I felt re his job situation. Nothing to do with how the players responded to it. Two different things
however, his teams frequently lost to inferior opponents as the years went on. it was jeckyll and hyde. I have never seen a team go from such a high as the beatdown of the Vikings in the championship game, 41-0, to the 34-7 beatdown received in the super bowl. the meltdown against the niners was the beginning of the end. 2003 was an injury plagued season where everything just fell apart.
ultimately, his legacy is a poor man's sean payton. in retrospect, there is a good argument that after the SF debacle, payton should have been promoted to head coach.
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