But for the Giants, the O would have been complete shit the last two seasons had OBJ not been on the team. I think he means more to the O right now than Miller would mean to the D if he was on the team.
If you have a good QB WR are easy to come by. Yes, OBJ is a rare talent but so is Von Miller and there are less pass rushers then there are WR.
+1
Think of the the amount of high quality/stud wide receivers in the NFL. There are many. The gap between the best WR and the 10th best is not that high.
Then think of the amount of elite pass rushers. You won't find as many roaming around the NFL.
Just when you thought you couldn't get any worse than Sheridan's defense, come the 2015 Giants. It's shit, brutally un-entertaining football to watch unless you're a fantasy stats drone. So tired of just knowing that the opposing team is going to effortlessly march down the field, of Witten chewing up the flat like he's playing against 3rd stringers. It's fucked. I can't stand bad defense football.
Moreover, the Giants have proven much, much more adept at drafting WRs vs any defensive position other than perhaps DT.
That said, it's Beckham. But again not an easy call for me. It's not a coincidence that these teams with elite pass rush and pass defense linebackers tend to be around in January. Disrupt the QB, disrupt the short passing game = competitive games.
All things being equal, I take OBJ. While defense is important, you absolutely have to score points to win. And like another poster wrote above, OBJ scores more points than Miller stops.
I think most fans would take the stud DE/LB over the stud WR.
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
but NYG runs a 4-3 built around its DEs though, a MIKE is more important in this scheme than a WILL who can cover. The modern WILL is going the way of the dodo bird, it seems, few 4-3 OLBs are consistently impactful these days unless teams figure out how to deploy them with their hand in the dirt on the LOS.
because of contract and age.. but if you tell me I am getting Von Miller at the same age then I am taking a the pass rushers.. there is a reason why top pass rushers are paid way more than top WR..
OBJ, because the Broncos actually still look good defensively
without Von Miller in games the last two years. I..um... really can't say the same about the Giants offensively without OBJ. That Vikings game is still stuck in my memory.
I think most fans would take the stud DE/LB over the stud WR.
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
PJ, let's think of it this way...
If you replaced Beckham with an average replacement level receiver and you replaced Miller with an average replacement level defender, what would the results of said team be?
In the context of the Giants, if they had Eli, average receivers and an elite defender, would they be a better team?
I'm trying to think of in the free agency era how many times a team with an uber elite receiver has even made the Super Bowl much less won it. There was a writer a few years ago who described these type of players as "shiny hood ornaments." They are nice to have, but in the grand scheme don't help win as many games as one might believe.
If the Giants were picking in the first round of the 2017 draft
and the next OBJ and the next Von Miller were BOTH on the board, I'd take Von Miller.
But at this point of time, I don't think I'd trade Von Miller for OBJ due to cap figures.
Von Miller is a shade more valuable as an overall player than OBJ because there are fewer dominant pure pass rushers than there are good wideouts. I mean, OBJ is GREAT and our offense is average without him. Add Von Miller to this defense as we are top 5 in every defensive category. I believe that.
I think most fans would take the stud DE/LB over the stud WR.
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
PJ, let's think of it this way...
If you replaced Beckham with an average replacement level receiver and you replaced Miller with an average replacement level defender, what would the results of said team be?
In the context of the Giants, if they had Eli, average receivers and an elite defender, would they be a better team?
I'm trying to think of in the free agency era how many times a team with an uber elite receiver has even made the Super Bowl much less won it. There was a writer a few years ago who described these type of players as "shiny hood ornaments." They are nice to have, but in the grand scheme don't help win as many games as one might believe.
I get it, I said I felt like most people would take the elite defender over the elite WR.
The question I think most people get hung up on this specific case is would Von Miller be elite on the Giants or elite enough to make more of an in-game impact than Beckham.
I know there are lot of "easily" and "by a lot" comments on here, and I just don't think it's that lopsided either way.
I think Randy Moss or Terrell Owens are examples elite WR's in the FA era making a SB (though they were both old(er) by that time) and both lost (maybe Steve Smith who won one, but not sure he qualifies as elite enough), and maybe Reggie White is an example of an elite defender switching teams and making a SB from the defensive side (though he was old by the time GB went to the SB too)
He's breaking records held by all time greats like Jerry Rice, Randy Moss etc etc.
Von Miller had a great playoff run, but only had 11 sacks in 2015. That's noting special. He has 60 sacks in his career which is solid, but it's only 12 sacks a year. If he was averaging 16-18 sacks a year the case for Von Miller would be much stronger. I do like Miller a lot though. He's a very good player, but I have to take the guy who is shattering records.
The best defensive player in his own draft class. JJ Watt is. M Watt is a way better run stopper. He's also a better pass rusher. Watt averages 3 more sacks a year.
He's right there with any non-QB including Beckham.
The 4-3 knock isn't legit. He would thrive in any defense as long as the coach is willing to adapt for a once in a lifetime player (and he is one).
He's taller and longer than Vernon. He can play in a 4-3 in a number of ways and any coach wouldn't have a problem putting him in the best spot to get to the QB.
Its a good question. Beckham lit up the league in is first 2 year but Miller has also dominated vs any NFL talent(on an LT-type level!).
If you think Beckham is the guy, then who is next? Miller is certainly on the short list of non-QBs. It isn't a landslide in either direction.
Von Miller
Beckham still has 2 years remaining on rookie deal (plus relative bargain of his option year).
+1
Think of the the amount of high quality/stud wide receivers in the NFL. There are many. The gap between the best WR and the 10th best is not that high.
Then think of the amount of elite pass rushers. You won't find as many roaming around the NFL.
Give me Miller.
Easily?
Von Miller just had a better playoff run than LT ever had
Moreover, the Giants have proven much, much more adept at drafting WRs vs any defensive position other than perhaps DT.
That said, it's Beckham. But again not an easy call for me. It's not a coincidence that these teams with elite pass rush and pass defense linebackers tend to be around in January. Disrupt the QB, disrupt the short passing game = competitive games.
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
I know, I was just using it as an example.
Id take Odell but it's a discussion.
Unlike Khalil Mack, Miller would be a very good 43 LB too because he can cover.
Id take Odell but it's a discussion.
Unlike Khalil Mack, Miller would be a very good 43 LB too because he can cover.
No it's not...Lawrence Taylor was the single greatest defensive player of all time
Quote:
Easily is going overboard.
Id take Odell but it's a discussion.
Unlike Khalil Mack, Miller would be a very good 43 LB too because he can cover.
No it's not...Lawrence Taylor was the single greatest defensive player of all time
Right and Odell Beckham, as good as he is, and as much potential as he has, isn't likely to be the single best offensive player of all time.
Von Miller
100%
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
PJ, let's think of it this way...
If you replaced Beckham with an average replacement level receiver and you replaced Miller with an average replacement level defender, what would the results of said team be?
In the context of the Giants, if they had Eli, average receivers and an elite defender, would they be a better team?
I'm trying to think of in the free agency era how many times a team with an uber elite receiver has even made the Super Bowl much less won it. There was a writer a few years ago who described these type of players as "shiny hood ornaments." They are nice to have, but in the grand scheme don't help win as many games as one might believe.
But at this point of time, I don't think I'd trade Von Miller for OBJ due to cap figures.
Von Miller is a shade more valuable as an overall player than OBJ because there are fewer dominant pure pass rushers than there are good wideouts. I mean, OBJ is GREAT and our offense is average without him. Add Von Miller to this defense as we are top 5 in every defensive category. I believe that.
Quote:
I think most fans would take the stud DE/LB over the stud WR.
It's kind of like asking who you'd rather have LT or Jerry Rice.
I think almost no one takes Jerry Rice in that contest, but Jerry Rice is among the GOAT WR's.
plus there's state of your team to consider too. if you don't have Beckham, who do you have at WR and if you don't have Miller who replaces him.
Beckham was on the Giants last year and they went 6 - 10. Take away Beckham and add Miller what's the team like? Still 6 - 10? worse? better? Who knows.
I know this is more complicated than you intended but when people say things like "easy" or "by a wide margin" it makes me think they're not thinking it through fully or I'm taking the fun out of it. LOL.
PJ, let's think of it this way...
If you replaced Beckham with an average replacement level receiver and you replaced Miller with an average replacement level defender, what would the results of said team be?
In the context of the Giants, if they had Eli, average receivers and an elite defender, would they be a better team?
I'm trying to think of in the free agency era how many times a team with an uber elite receiver has even made the Super Bowl much less won it. There was a writer a few years ago who described these type of players as "shiny hood ornaments." They are nice to have, but in the grand scheme don't help win as many games as one might believe.
I get it, I said I felt like most people would take the elite defender over the elite WR.
The question I think most people get hung up on this specific case is would Von Miller be elite on the Giants or elite enough to make more of an in-game impact than Beckham.
I know there are lot of "easily" and "by a lot" comments on here, and I just don't think it's that lopsided either way.
I think Randy Moss or Terrell Owens are examples elite WR's in the FA era making a SB (though they were both old(er) by that time) and both lost (maybe Steve Smith who won one, but not sure he qualifies as elite enough), and maybe Reggie White is an example of an elite defender switching teams and making a SB from the defensive side (though he was old by the time GB went to the SB too)
Von Miller had a great playoff run, but only had 11 sacks in 2015. That's noting special. He has 60 sacks in his career which is solid, but it's only 12 sacks a year. If he was averaging 16-18 sacks a year the case for Von Miller would be much stronger. I do like Miller a lot though. He's a very good player, but I have to take the guy who is shattering records.
He's right there with any non-QB including Beckham.
The 4-3 knock isn't legit. He would thrive in any defense as long as the coach is willing to adapt for a once in a lifetime player (and he is one).
He's taller and longer than Vernon. He can play in a 4-3 in a number of ways and any coach wouldn't have a problem putting him in the best spot to get to the QB.
Its a good question. Beckham lit up the league in is first 2 year but Miller has also dominated vs any NFL talent(on an LT-type level!).
If you think Beckham is the guy, then who is next? Miller is certainly on the short list of non-QBs. It isn't a landslide in either direction.