Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
Beatty is going to get a job eventually. Him and Schwartz are light years better than anyone that's a backup on the OL.
Is what it is. With the amount of money leftover in the cap I dont see how both Jerry and Newhouse are still starting.
are ever forced to play two backups for an extender period of time I dont see any way this team can win enough games to have a good season.
Understandable to be nervous about lack of OL depth - but this comment is just a little crazy to me. We won the SB in 2011 with a below average OL. The OL was fine last year, actually pretty good. We had the worst defense in NFL history - which is why we lost 10 games.
can we stop asking why the Giants cut Will Beatty and saying that Will Beatty should be on this team still. He's soft, he's not that good, and he wasn't in the plans to build a new identity for this team.
are ever forced to play two backups for an extender period of time I dont see any way this team can win enough games to have a good season.
Understandable to be nervous about lack of OL depth - but this comment is just a little crazy to me. We won the SB in 2011 with a below average OL. The OL was fine last year, actually pretty good. We had the worst defense in NFL history - which is why we lost 10 games.
The giants starting OL is good enough but there is zero depth.
Also cant underestimate that 3/5 of the line in 2011 was battle tested superbowl champions.
Which is one of the reasons that a guy like Charles Brown still has a job. There are some teams that are better off in that department than others, like the Bills, as I mentioned in another thread, but they are few and far between.
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Which is one of the reasons that a guy like Charles Brown still has a job. There are some teams that are better off in that department than others, like the Bills, as I mentioned in another thread, but they are few and far between.
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
I agree with depth being a league wide problem. For their warts Beatty and Schwartz would arguably the 4th and 5th best linemen on this team. You can even argue both are possibly better than flowers as it stands today.
It didnt make sense to cut BOTH players. Keeping Schwartz made more sense to me. Keeps Jerry and Hart as capable backups. Yes, schwartz would probably get hurt but isnt ten games of him better than zero?
Which is one of the reasons that a guy like Charles Brown still has a job. There are some teams that are better off in that department than others, like the Bills, as I mentioned in another thread, but they are few and far between.
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
Exactly. People here think we should have 7 pro bowlers on the OL. In reality, having 2-3 excellent linemen is a plus. 3-4 good linemen with some journeymen veterans is usually the case.
Sorry to say it, but Cruz it's time to make a decision on Cruz
Both Reese and McAdoo have said that he needs to be on the field in preseason games. I agree. They have to see what if anything he can do before the season starts or they should cut him. He can even make it through practices without getting hurt and he hasn't played a down in almost 2 years. It's sad, but it's the reality of the situation.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo? Did they play a good game against the panthers or turn it around after getting down 35-7. This was an offense that couldnt get a first down when it needed one to close out a game.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
I sure did. I saw them score 7 points of a turnover and run the ball 25x for 94 yards.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
I sure did. I saw them score 7 points of a turnover and run the ball 25x for 94 yards.
Dude, we're just going to agree to disagree here. The 24-10 score wasn't even that close honestly.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I mentioned 7 other games. You can nitpick if you want to.
How well did they play at home vs atlanta? Vs the jets? Both games they had ten points leads and turned the ball over inside the opponents 10 when they had chances to put the game away. Dig deeper. They never scored again in either game and lost.
Beatty and Schwartz? Gimme a fucking break. Schwartz can't stay health
and didn't look great the few times he was. Beatty was soft, and pissed of the organization when he made his business decision last year. Doesn't seem like too many other teams agree with your assessment ODB. Week 2 of preseason and he's just getting some tepid interest.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo? Did they play a good game against the panthers or turn it around after getting down 35-7. This was an offense that couldnt get a first down when it needed one to close out a game.
Weird post.
The Giants got the football in the 4th quarter only up 23-18 in TB with 5 minutes to go. That drive consisted of three first downs, lasted 4 and a half minutes and resulted in a FG which put us up 8 and left the Bucs less than 30 seconds to go all the way down the field. They wound up fumbling on the KR on a botched lateral anyway and Wade returned it for a TD to seal it.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
not only was Schwartz constantly injured and almost never on the field for the Giants, but when he actually got in there, he sucked. He got pushed around and beaten constantly. What are you watching?
not only was Schwartz constantly injured and almost never on the field for the Giants, but when he actually got in there, he sucked. He got pushed around and beaten constantly. What are you watching?
Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry. With 17 million left in cap space what exactly did the Giants gain by cutting him?
and Jerry all you want, but those guys are battling every practice and never injured, and honestly weren't that bad last season. Were they badly beaten at times? Sure, they absolutely were. But overall they held up well and play every down.
and Jerry all you want, but those guys are battling every practice and never injured, and honestly weren't that bad last season. Were they badly beaten at times? Sure, they absolutely were. But overall they held up well and play every down.
OK. So start those two guys. And if one of them gets hurt instead of putting in stingly at G we can put in Schwartz. Isnt that a better scenario?
Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry.
So you're saying Schwartz is better than 2nd and 3rd string NFL players? No shit. The dude had like 11 injuries in less than 2 years with the Giants, and he wasn't good on the field. That's why they cut him.
and Jerry all you want, but those guys are battling every practice and never injured, and honestly weren't that bad last season. Were they badly beaten at times? Sure, they absolutely were. But overall they held up well and play every down.
OK. So start those two guys. And if one of them gets hurt instead of putting in stingly at G we can put in Schwartz. Isnt that a better scenario?
No, it's honestly not. Paying Schwartz decent money to be a backup would not be a good use of the cap, IMO. And honestly, he'd get hurt anyways - so the odds of him being available if Jerry or Newhouse were to get injured would be very small.
I actually don't even think Schwartz is better than John Jerry. Nothing he did here proved that. And I'm certainly not in the same stratosphere as our resident John Jerry cheerleader.
but we just disagree. Schwartz and Beatty have no place on an OL that wants to re build their identity with toughness in the trenches and the ability to break a team's will throughout a game.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry.
So you're saying Schwartz is better than 2nd and 3rd string NFL players? No shit. The dude had like 11 injuries in less than 2 years with the Giants, and he wasn't good on the field. That's why they cut him.
Considering the low contract number of Jerry and how little the Giants saved by cutting Schwartz and the 17 million left in cap space I would have kept schwartz and been deeper at guard.
That's really all I'm saying. I'm not like the johnjerry guy trying to tell you schwartz didnt suck. He does. But so does Jerry. They replaced schwartz with an equally bad player and now have an even worse player behind their starting RG.
Newhouse and Jerry were signed to be backups. Look at their contracts. Now they're starting. We have 17 million in cap space yet we dont have starting caliber players on the right side of the line or capable backups at 4/5 spots.
I would have kept one of the two guys to have better depth. It wouldnt have effected any of the moves the Giants tried to make this summer.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
that we don't have excellent options at RG and RT - but the draft didn't fall that way the past 2 seasons, we had much more glaring needs on defense and WR, and the FA pool at tackle was filled with injury plagued veterans that wanted 10M+ per year. I think Reese did a good job of not overpaying for the OL.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
I feel like i'm just being trolled...this isn't madden.
just zero evidence that your OL has to be amazing to go far into the playoffs. Yes, it can't suck. But it just has to be good. The fact that we hit on Richburg, Pugh, and possibly Flowers is a good thing.
I don't think you understand that the Giants specifically identified players who they didn't feel could stay on the field enough to contribute and cut bait with them on purpose.
We're trying to get away from being the team that leads the league in injuries here and create a new environment here.
What good is depth when that depth is constantly hurt or not very good anyway? Maybe it looks better on paper but it doesn't do a whole lot for the football team.
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
I feel like i'm just being trolled...this isn't madden.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
Ryan, we will agree to disagree. Good debate. Appreciate it.
I don't think you understand that the Giants specifically identified players who they didn't feel could stay on the field enough to contribute and cut bait with them on purpose.
We're trying to get away from being the team that leads the league in injuries here and create a new environment here.
What good is depth when that depth is constantly hurt or not very good anyway? Maybe it looks better on paper but it doesn't do a whole lot for the football team.
So we are better off with Stingly? We saved just under $3 million by cutting Schwartz. We have 17 million left in cap space. Wouldnt you feel better having schwartz playing backup RG right now?
If they needed the money at some point in free agency they could have always cut him. Cutting him before free agency and the draft and seeing what they could acquire made no fucking sense. Savings for Schwartz - ( New Window )
not wanting a player back because of your own ingrown dislike
seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
...at least we aren't *hoping* for Schwartz or Beatty to either a) not suck or b) not get injured. I like that there's continuity on the line. I think it helps a lot.
RE: not wanting a player back because of your own ingrown dislike
seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
I agree with that notion but not when that specific player is Geoff Schwartz. He was injured 24/7 - he literally stole money from the Giants. They don't want him back, or around the team.
dislike" for Schwartz - he seemed like a good guy. But he spent his entire tenure with the Giants injured and on twitter. Just not my kinda player, that's all.
RE: not wanting a player back because of your own ingrown dislike
seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
Thank you. Beggers cant be choosers. You take the best players you can as long as they're not ruining your cap and chances of getting other players.
The Gianst cut schwartz before seeing if they actually needed the space and/or they could replace him. Assuming him and Jerry are equals they did not replace him on the roster. They got worse with that transaction and have nothing to show for the saved money.
I really wouldn't feel a whole lot better, to be honest. One, Geoff Schwartz did not play well here and two, he couldn't stay on the field. How much does that really help the Giants?
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
to have consistent positions. A few of the people on this thread ripping the Giants for not signing Beatty or Schwartz railed on Reese the entire time Beason couldn't get on the field, even strangely going on about a lost 7th rounder.
And LB is in a more dire position of need than the OL (or at least has been).
If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
You're missing the point and failing the see the big picture.
Except for Keenan Robinson, what's the one thing all of the Giants' free agent signings have in common? Durability. They don't miss games. For a team that's led the league in injuries for the past three years, that has to be an imperative. Geoff Schwartz is not a guy you can count on to say healthy, so even if he is a better player than, say, Shane McDermott, the odds are that McDermott will be there when you need him. You can't say the same about Geoff Schwartz. Money doesn't factor into it.
Will Beatty is not the type of player the Giants want on their team anymore. Ereck Flowers is, even if he is not as technically sound as Beatty at this point in time. You have to shoot Flowers with a bazooka to get him off the field. There's no reason to think that Flowers has anything on his mind other than playing good football. You can't say the same things about Beatty. The Giants are pushing for a cultural change, talking about "family," and depending on players whose commitment is unquestioned.
As for the backup LT, it's not going to be Pugh. You're not going to weaken two spots on the O-Line by moving Pugh. And whoever fills in - Stingilly, Hart, Rodgers - will need all the help he can get from his LG.
I really wouldn't feel a whole lot better, to be honest. One, Geoff Schwartz did not play well here and two, he couldn't stay on the field. How much does that really help the Giants?
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
Cutting BOTH Beatty and Schwartz (projected starters going into last season) before seeing if they needed the space and/or replaced them made no sense. Someone tell me what the benefit was? More money in cap space that's going unused?
I really wouldn't feel a whole lot better, to be honest. One, Geoff Schwartz did not play well here and two, he couldn't stay on the field. How much does that really help the Giants?
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
Cutting BOTH Beatty and Schwartz (projected starters going into last season) before seeing if they needed the space and/or replaced them made no sense. Someone tell me what the benefit was? More money in cap space that's going unused?
For the millionth time, the Giants no longer felt those players were assets here and wanted to cut ties.
Same with Randle and Amukamara. They didn't want these guys back. They are trying to change the culture here whether you agree with it or not.
to have consistent positions. A few of the people on this thread ripping the Giants for not signing Beatty or Schwartz railed on Reese the entire time Beason couldn't get on the field, even strangely going on about a lost 7th rounder.
And LB is in a more dire position of need than the OL (or at least has been).
They could have started Newhouse and Jerry and had schwartz and/or Beatty as backups. This solves your consistent problem and leaves the Giants with better depth then they currently have. Being that the team has 17 million in cap space left nothing about our free agency would have been effected by keeping/restructuring the contracts of both players.
Beatty. Is he better than a 4th or 5th WR? Sure, he probably is. While he was sometimes productive, he just isn't that committed and showed almost no fire to improve. The Eagles are starting to see that already.
That they wanted DEPENDABLE backups and also wanted to move a different direction in health. It is a reason Beason is gone. It is a reason Prince is gone.
You make it sound like you just take former starters and put them as backups without:
a) Any pushback from those players who might want to start
b) Or, that they will be physically able to play if called upon.
has a lot more to do with very serious lower body injuries to a lineman, and not about him about him "stealing money".
You don't "steal money" by having a plate grafted to your broken ankle, and then fracturing the same leg less than a year later.
You don't need to take what I said THAT literally. Obviously, Schwartz didn't plan on getting injured. The reality was, he woke up almost every day on this roster hurt.
if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
Beatty. Is he better than a 4th or 5th WR? Sure, he probably is. While he was sometimes productive, he just isn't that committed and showed almost no fire to improve. The Eagles are starting to see that already.
Randle just drained me of football life and I'm sure he did the same with the team.
no malice in my thoughts but I guess I'm just confused that some fans still think Schwartz should have any place on this team. That signing was an utter disaster.
if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
is a good comp to a player who even when healthy exhibited some of the same traits as Beatty.
There are probably some people who would want Randle as a 4th WR, but you still have mistakes to deal with. Christ, people wanted to run Preston Parker out of town and the guy worked his ass off, but couldn't catch the ball consistently, yet they'd be happy with a guy in a similar position who has brain fart after brain fart that kills drives?
no malice in my thoughts but I guess I'm just confused that some fans still think Schwartz should have any place on this team. That signing was an utter disaster.
schwartz,Beatty, Beason and Cruz all did not work out for us. A shame.
no malice in my thoughts but I guess I'm just confused that some fans still think Schwartz should have any place on this team. That signing was an utter disaster.
schwartz,Beatty, Beason and Cruz all did not work out for us. A shame.
Cruz did not work out for us? Do you think before you post?
sort of sucks. You should be signing players based on their contributions and talent level, not on the budget. By that mode of thinking, just sign any warm body - you have cash to do it.
And that's with ignoring the fact that you need to keep a 53 man roster and injured players have a way of fucking that up a bit.
and with the knowledge that internal team culture was probably what dictated the moves, I still must say that the Beatty and Schwartz releases are hurting this team.
I get that they will be hurt, I get that continuity is important, and frankly Schwartz's release doesn't bother me AS much - but you cannot tell me that a line with Beatty at LT and Flowers at RT (or even vice versa for fuck's sake) would be better than having Newhouse on this line.
Having Newhouse and Jerry as backups to a line of Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers would be so so so much better than what we have now.
Flowers better blossom (lol) into a great player, otherwise this will be looked at as a huge miscalculation IMO. I really hope we do not have an offense that is on the verge of breaking out but is held back by the O-line. The O-line has consistently been an issue since 2011, it's mind boggling that they made so many moves to sure it up but refused to finish the job by adding the last piece of the puzzle (another tackle)
if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
I get the position on Schwartz, and as I posted above, I don't think he was all that egregious of a cut... but I don't get why people think releasing Beatty was a good move.
He must have REALLY pissed off the Giants last year. But man, he makes this line MUCH better, cause as soft as he is, he is lightyears better than Newhouse.
I get that they will be hurt, I get that continuity is important, and frankly Schwartz's release doesn't bother me AS much - but you cannot tell me that a line with Beatty at LT and Flowers at RT (or even vice versa for fuck's sake) would be better than having Newhouse on this line.
Which Beatty are you discussing? The good Beatty from 5 years ago? Or the present Beatty - who isn't good - and always hurt?
that Beatty is lightyears better than Newhouse currently. Newhouse got beat a few times last season and made for a few funny twitter clips, but he mostly help up well. To me, they are pretty much equal.
Does everyone recall the Beatty from 2013? He was literally dreadful.
if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
I can't answer that question because I dont have a job that budgets over 100 million for employees. I can't compare an insurance agency to an offensive lineman.
had resigned Beatty or Schwartz it would basically be a slap in the fans to fans - essentially saying they hadn't learned anything at all from previous years and wanted to keep guys on the roster that were just dragging the overall team/morale/health down and they were gonna keep the status quo of guys that were roster eaters.
I was ecstatic when they let go of both of these guys, and Prince as well. By all accounts good people - but unreliable football players who aren't that great anyway.
I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
Why the hell didn't Flowers and Newhouse attend Bentley's camp for Oline? They both desperately need it. They must be encouraged to attend next spring by the team.
I'm actually impressed by John Jerry. He took that huge step on his own and is likely a better player for it. I'm now looking forward to seeing just how much JJ has improved. I know he had a key run block perfectly executed in Friday's game.
I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
I can't answer that question because I dont have a job that budgets over 100 million for employees. I can't compare an insurance agency to an offensive lineman.
The guy who has that job wants nothing to do with either player. I get fans critiquing roster moves, its part of being a fan, but we didn't cut a couple above average players who may or may not be on the downturn of their careers. Both weren't good when they left, and were hurt constantly. Why do you want them back, just to say we have bodies? Because that's really all Shwartz was and likely Beatty as well.
Why the hell didn't Flowers and Newhouse attend Bentley's camp for Oline? They both desperately need it. They must be encouraged to attend next spring by the team.
I'm actually impressed by John Jerry. He took that huge step on his own and is likely a better player for it. I'm now looking forward to seeing just how much JJ has improved. I know he had a key run block perfectly executed in Friday's game.
You don't just show up. It's invitation-based. Bentley meets with people who want to go to work with him, and he doesn't take everyone. Richburg had to vouch for Jerry that he was serious about it.
I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
Couldnt he have cut these guys after he found their replacements or capable backsups? Why do it before the draft, free agency or until you need the money?
I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
Couldnt he have cut these guys after he found their replacements or capable backsups? Why do it before the draft, free agency or until you need the money?
Because once again, the Giants did not want these players back. No circumstance was going to change that.
but reading between the lines the Giants weren't happy with Beatty's effort and attitude. Why wait to cut him when you already have zero plans for him in the future? And why wouldn't you free up cap as soon as possible to be in play for a targeted FA?
but reading between the lines the Giants weren't happy with Beatty's effort and attitude. Why wait to cut him when you already have zero plans for him in the future? And why wouldn't you free up cap as soon as possible to be in play for a targeted FA?
Because they already had a ton of cap space and if needed could have cut him in a moments notice to make additional room if they needed it which they wound up not needing.
its also good business to get it done day 1 and let the players plan their next move with as much time as possible.
We clearly won't agree on this issue and that's fine, but you can't keep questioning every single thing about a player or players that weren't very good here. Its not like we cut Strahan after 2007 with gas clearly left in the tank.
its also good business to get it done day 1 and let the players plan their next move with as much time as possible.
We clearly won't agree on this issue and that's fine, but you can't keep questioning every single thing about a player or players that weren't very good here. Its not like we cut Strahan after 2007 with gas clearly left in the tank.
Fair enough. I dont care about losing a guy like Randle because he was replaced with an asset. Just think the line has been such a problem here we should have kept every decent player possible as long as it didnt effect the cap.
the line will be better than last year outside of a really big injury. How much better is anyone's guess but if we can convert on 3rd down and short at a slightly higher rate, run better routes out of the 2nd WR slot (this is almost a virtual lock), and get more athletic at RB (I think we accomplished this, but we will see how much Perkins is used), than our OLine won't need to be all Pro.
What's the difference if Beatty and Schwartz are light years better. Neither one can stay on the field due to their health
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In comment 13070942 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
Beatty is going to get a job eventually. Him and Schwartz are light years better than anyone that's a backup on the OL.
Is what it is. With the amount of money leftover in the cap I dont see how both Jerry and Newhouse are still starting.
Desperate for a tackle we by pass the best player in the draft for a project at a position where we have an all pro and just tied up money in Janoris.
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
Desperate for a tackle we by pass the best player in the draft for a project at a position where we have an all pro and just tied up money in Janoris.
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
Speaking of redundancy, do you ever get tired of posting the same thing over and over again?
isn't even playing tackle with the Dolphins and not only did he come with a lot of off the field concerns he didn't have the total package. According to many takes he got by with power and size and didn't use good technique. That is not the best player in the draft. Not by a long shot.
Desperate for a tackle we by pass the best player in the draft for a project at a position where we have an all pro and just tied up money in Janoris.
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
They needed to draft a good replacement corner immediately. From what I hear, this is DRC's last year with the Giants. So at least they will have Jenkins & Apple at CB in 2017.
Beatty and Schwartz were cut then you really just don't understand how OLine play works or the direction this FO wants this team to go in.
Well, it's good to cut guys to move in a different direction, but then you've got to come up with the guys to go in that direction, and we haven't. I understand the problems with Beatty, but he's still probably in the top 4-5 OL on this team, and arguably better than Flowers at this point.
I understand the problems with Beatty, but he's still probably in the top 4-5 OL on this team, and arguably better than Flowers at this point.
People can't scream "Kuhn shouldn't be on the team" but clamor for Beatty to stay here, because realistically, they serve the same utility. Both are JAG's who make the team weaker if they are forced to play.
If you are going to have a JAG around, you have to have it be somebody who wants to play. Kuhn had heart and when he left, people would've paid his bus ticket out. Beatty could care less and people act like not signing him is a mistake.
Beatty and Schwartz were cut then you really just don't understand how OLine play works or the direction this FO wants this team to go in.
Well, it's good to cut guys to move in a different direction, but then you've got to come up with the guys to go in that direction, and we haven't. I understand the problems with Beatty, but he's still probably in the top 4-5 OL on this team, and arguably better than Flowers at this point.
I have no idea how you can drawn that conclusion. What are you basing your assessment of Beatty on? And no, that isn't how it works. In this scenario the Giants didn't want Beatty under any circumstances, which is obvious by how quickly he was cut and all the rumblings leading up to it.
It's beating a dead horse. If you weren't on board with Beattys exit, you never will be.
But the disconnect is fans filling in the blanks with their own mind reading narratives.
You don't get to this level by "not caring". And you certainly don't stay in the league for 5+ years as an offensive lineman by not caring. The nature of the job weeds out the people who want to do it for a living a lot earlier than this.
may be a little harsh, and this is coming from a guy who defends a lot of players.
But that was the perception of Beatty - not my perception - the team's. I have n o clue what Beatty's enthusiasm level is. Like I stated way up above, he was viewed as mercurial even in pre-draft interviews. My opinion of him is the same I took with a lot of players - his injuries put him in a position where he simply isn't that good of a player anymore.
Couple injuries with the perception he's more interested in things other than football, and you have a recipe for how not to stick around too long.
Ranaan's take on ten '1st team' offensive snaps...
Beatty had a damn good '12, fell off in '13 and rebounded in '14. The Giants didn't draft Flowers so that they could cut Beatty. They planned to keep Beatty at LT and play Flowers at RT a year or two and then move Flowers to LT, probably when Beatty's contract expired. In the short term, the Giants were looking to improve RT by replacing Newhouse, not LT by replacing Beatty. In the medium term, yeah, Flowers would push Beatty out. Whatever happened between the FO and Beatty last year was not part of the Giants' plan, and while they came to feel they had to dump Beatty, they didn't and don't have a good replacement for him. Had their plans gone through, Newhouse would have been a backup. As it turned out, they've got no one as a backup.
...in his tenure with the Giants and parts of a couple functional seasons between injuries. For which he was paid a lot of money.
He repaid that by bowing out with a questionable injury last season which the team felt he should have at least tried to get something done with. Result is he was adiosed.
But the disconnect is fans filling in the blanks with their own mind reading narratives.
You don't get to this level by "not caring". And you certainly don't stay in the league for 5+ years as an offensive lineman by not caring. The nature of the job weeds out the people who want to do it for a living a lot earlier than this.
I think this is a very level headed post. One thing I'll add that avoids the issue of mind reading Will Beatty is that as good or serviceable as he was during his best stretches of play - it was NEVER as good as the Giants' FO and coaches expected of Will, given his AA, strength, and size.
No way I am going to bother to dig up the specific quotes over the years that led me to this conclusion, but I can paraphrase two from memory.
Once Flaherty said of Beatty, early in his career as a starter, that Will "spent too much time (or mental energy) focusing on countering what opponents would throw at him, rather than focusing on himself and what HE could do to dominate his opponents."
The other was a comment by Reese justifying Will's second contract. He said the large value $$ of the contact (many in the press and on BBI questioned if Reese "overpaid" to retain Will's services) was based on what they expected of Will GOING FORWARD.
In short, the team ALWAYS EXPECTED Beatty to become a better player than he ever became. His AA was outstanding, he had prototypical height, arm length, girth, weight room strength, really good feet... it just never came together for Will like many on the team (including the guy who cut his paychecks) thought it would.
The deal of taking up a roster spot last year was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I don't know that Will's off field interests or dedication to playing football was so important as him simply not performing to the level they expected from him was.
Simply put there are already enough questions about the starting OL. If they have to start playing some of these backups they're in deep shit.
Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
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Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
Beatty is going to get a job eventually. Him and Schwartz are light years better than anyone that's a backup on the OL.
Is what it is. With the amount of money leftover in the cap I dont see how both Jerry and Newhouse are still starting.
Understandable to be nervous about lack of OL depth - but this comment is just a little crazy to me. We won the SB in 2011 with a below average OL. The OL was fine last year, actually pretty good. We had the worst defense in NFL history - which is why we lost 10 games.
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are ever forced to play two backups for an extender period of time I dont see any way this team can win enough games to have a good season.
Understandable to be nervous about lack of OL depth - but this comment is just a little crazy to me. We won the SB in 2011 with a below average OL. The OL was fine last year, actually pretty good. We had the worst defense in NFL history - which is why we lost 10 games.
The giants starting OL is good enough but there is zero depth.
Also cant underestimate that 3/5 of the line in 2011 was battle tested superbowl champions.
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
I agree with depth being a league wide problem. For their warts Beatty and Schwartz would arguably the 4th and 5th best linemen on this team. You can even argue both are possibly better than flowers as it stands today.
It didnt make sense to cut BOTH players. Keeping Schwartz made more sense to me. Keeps Jerry and Hart as capable backups. Yes, schwartz would probably get hurt but isnt ten games of him better than zero?
Still, there are two things to keep in mind. One, an O-Line doesn't get subbed in en masse during the regular season as it does in the preseason. Two, two of the guys that went in with the second team probably won't make the final 53 - Bret Jones and Adam Gettis.
Exactly. People here think we should have 7 pro bowlers on the OL. In reality, having 2-3 excellent linemen is a plus. 3-4 good linemen with some journeymen veterans is usually the case.
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I wouldn't say they were either one. Adequate.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo? Did they play a good game against the panthers or turn it around after getting down 35-7. This was an offense that couldnt get a first down when it needed one to close out a game.
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In comment 13070983 jeff57 said:
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I wouldn't say they were either one. Adequate.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
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In comment 13070999 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 13070983 jeff57 said:
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I wouldn't say they were either one. Adequate.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
I sure did. I saw them score 7 points of a turnover and run the ball 25x for 94 yards.
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In comment 13071011 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13070999 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 13070983 jeff57 said:
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I wouldn't say they were either one. Adequate.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo?
Again, did you even watch this game? I was at the Buffalo game, and the Giants OL completely handled Buffalo's front - Eli had a clean pocket the entire game (save for a sack on the last drive when the game was in hand) and they ran the ball well.
I sure did. I saw them score 7 points of a turnover and run the ball 25x for 94 yards.
Dude, we're just going to agree to disagree here. The 24-10 score wasn't even that close honestly.
Bingo.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
How well did they play at home vs atlanta? Vs the jets? Both games they had ten points leads and turned the ball over inside the opponents 10 when they had chances to put the game away. Dig deeper. They never scored again in either game and lost.
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In comment 13070983 jeff57 said:
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I wouldn't say they were either one. Adequate.
Adequate is a good word to describe it. But Eli was the 4th least sacked QB in the league and they had a top 10 offense. The running game obviously struggled, but dominated the point of attack many times throughout the season. I'd say the running game was up and down - the rest was pretty good to good all year long.
Stats dont tell the whole story. How did the offense fair in divisional games? Did they play a good game at tampa bay? At buffallo? Did they play a good game against the panthers or turn it around after getting down 35-7. This was an offense that couldnt get a first down when it needed one to close out a game.
Weird post.
The Giants got the football in the 4th quarter only up 23-18 in TB with 5 minutes to go. That drive consisted of three first downs, lasted 4 and a half minutes and resulted in a FG which put us up 8 and left the Bucs less than 30 seconds to go all the way down the field. They wound up fumbling on the KR on a botched lateral anyway and Wade returned it for a TD to seal it.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
The OL was fine last year. Really, they were.
Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry. With 17 million left in cap space what exactly did the Giants gain by cutting him?
OK. So start those two guys. And if one of them gets hurt instead of putting in stingly at G we can put in Schwartz. Isnt that a better scenario?
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Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry.
So you're saying Schwartz is better than 2nd and 3rd string NFL players? No shit. The dude had like 11 injuries in less than 2 years with the Giants, and he wasn't good on the field. That's why they cut him.
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and Jerry all you want, but those guys are battling every practice and never injured, and honestly weren't that bad last season. Were they badly beaten at times? Sure, they absolutely were. But overall they held up well and play every down.
OK. So start those two guys. And if one of them gets hurt instead of putting in stingly at G we can put in Schwartz. Isnt that a better scenario?
No, it's honestly not. Paying Schwartz decent money to be a backup would not be a good use of the cap, IMO. And honestly, he'd get hurt anyways - so the odds of him being available if Jerry or Newhouse were to get injured would be very small.
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If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
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In comment 13071061 ryanmkeane said:
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Again, I dont think Schwartz is good. I just think he's better than John Jerry and he's certainly better than the guys behind Jerry.
So you're saying Schwartz is better than 2nd and 3rd string NFL players? No shit. The dude had like 11 injuries in less than 2 years with the Giants, and he wasn't good on the field. That's why they cut him.
Considering the low contract number of Jerry and how little the Giants saved by cutting Schwartz and the 17 million left in cap space I would have kept schwartz and been deeper at guard.
That's really all I'm saying. I'm not like the johnjerry guy trying to tell you schwartz didnt suck. He does. But so does Jerry. They replaced schwartz with an equally bad player and now have an even worse player behind their starting RG.
Newhouse and Jerry were signed to be backups. Look at their contracts. Now they're starting. We have 17 million in cap space yet we dont have starting caliber players on the right side of the line or capable backups at 4/5 spots.
I would have kept one of the two guys to have better depth. It wouldnt have effected any of the moves the Giants tried to make this summer.
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In comment 13071038 Klaatu said:
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If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
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In comment 13071047 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13071038 Klaatu said:
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If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
I feel like i'm just being trolled...this isn't madden.
We're trying to get away from being the team that leads the league in injuries here and create a new environment here.
What good is depth when that depth is constantly hurt or not very good anyway? Maybe it looks better on paper but it doesn't do a whole lot for the football team.
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In comment 13071077 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 13071047 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13071038 Klaatu said:
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If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
No not really. If/when they get hurt, then what? We already wasted several years dealing with both players injuries, why waste more? At what point to you put cohesion above being slightly more "talented". Do you value 8 games from Beatty or 16 games from a slightly lesser player?
If this was a WR we are talking about maybe i say its worth it, but not the Oline. No GM or coach will ever say 8 games from a solid Olinemen will help their season. It can take the better part of a full season for an Oline to click, having injury prone, average players doesn't fit the bill.
If/when they get hurt the players who are starting now would just become the starters!!!!!!!!!! What's the downside??
I feel like i'm just being trolled...this isn't madden.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
Ryan, we will agree to disagree. Good debate. Appreciate it.
We're trying to get away from being the team that leads the league in injuries here and create a new environment here.
What good is depth when that depth is constantly hurt or not very good anyway? Maybe it looks better on paper but it doesn't do a whole lot for the football team.
So we are better off with Stingly? We saved just under $3 million by cutting Schwartz. We have 17 million left in cap space. Wouldnt you feel better having schwartz playing backup RG right now?
If they needed the money at some point in free agency they could have always cut him. Cutting him before free agency and the draft and seeing what they could acquire made no fucking sense.
Savings for Schwartz - ( New Window )
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
I agree with that notion but not when that specific player is Geoff Schwartz. He was injured 24/7 - he literally stole money from the Giants. They don't want him back, or around the team.
Geoff Schwartz would be a much better backup for this team than Gettis or whatever the hell is behind Jerry and Pugh. I'm not convinced we have an NFL player on the 2nd team OL other than Hart.
Thank you. Beggers cant be choosers. You take the best players you can as long as they're not ruining your cap and chances of getting other players.
The Gianst cut schwartz before seeing if they actually needed the space and/or they could replace him. Assuming him and Jerry are equals they did not replace him on the roster. They got worse with that transaction and have nothing to show for the saved money.
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
And LB is in a more dire position of need than the OL (or at least has been).
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If you're looking for consistency and continuity on your offensive line, then Geoff Schwartz is not your guy. I applauded his signing at the time, but he could not stay healthy.
As for Will Beatty, his commitment to football in general, and his team in particular is questionable. He's the type of player the Giants need to say away from as they attempt to change the culture of the team.
I dont think schwartz and beatty are good players. I think they're better than newhouse and jerry and all of the backups. Considering the amount of money the Giants have left under the salary cap they didnt need the space they used to cut these players. Schwartz in particular.
Keeping 1 or both the Giants are a better team today, right? They're deeper with more competition along the offensive line.
Will Beatty would be an excellent backup LT. Instead if Flowers gets hurt we have to move Pugh to LT and then throw in a bag of shit at LG.
You're missing the point and failing the see the big picture.
Except for Keenan Robinson, what's the one thing all of the Giants' free agent signings have in common? Durability. They don't miss games. For a team that's led the league in injuries for the past three years, that has to be an imperative. Geoff Schwartz is not a guy you can count on to say healthy, so even if he is a better player than, say, Shane McDermott, the odds are that McDermott will be there when you need him. You can't say the same about Geoff Schwartz. Money doesn't factor into it.
Will Beatty is not the type of player the Giants want on their team anymore. Ereck Flowers is, even if he is not as technically sound as Beatty at this point in time. You have to shoot Flowers with a bazooka to get him off the field. There's no reason to think that Flowers has anything on his mind other than playing good football. You can't say the same things about Beatty. The Giants are pushing for a cultural change, talking about "family," and depending on players whose commitment is unquestioned.
As for the backup LT, it's not going to be Pugh. You're not going to weaken two spots on the O-Line by moving Pugh. And whoever fills in - Stingilly, Hart, Rodgers - will need all the help he can get from his LG.
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
Cutting BOTH Beatty and Schwartz (projected starters going into last season) before seeing if they needed the space and/or replaced them made no sense. Someone tell me what the benefit was? More money in cap space that's going unused?
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I really wouldn't feel a whole lot better, to be honest. One, Geoff Schwartz did not play well here and two, he couldn't stay on the field. How much does that really help the Giants?
They obviously didn't feel he was an asset to the team.
And again.. not to sound like a John Jerry fan but the guy hasn't missed a game in like 5 years. I'm really not that worried about the backup RG.
LT is a bigger concern if Flowers underperforms or is injured again. But again.. the relationship with Beatty obviously deteriorated to the point where they didn't want him back.
Cutting BOTH Beatty and Schwartz (projected starters going into last season) before seeing if they needed the space and/or replaced them made no sense. Someone tell me what the benefit was? More money in cap space that's going unused?
For the millionth time, the Giants no longer felt those players were assets here and wanted to cut ties.
Same with Randle and Amukamara. They didn't want these guys back. They are trying to change the culture here whether you agree with it or not.
And LB is in a more dire position of need than the OL (or at least has been).
They could have started Newhouse and Jerry and had schwartz and/or Beatty as backups. This solves your consistent problem and leaves the Giants with better depth then they currently have. Being that the team has 17 million in cap space left nothing about our free agency would have been effected by keeping/restructuring the contracts of both players.
What is so hard to understand about this concept?
You don't "steal money" by having a plate grafted to your broken ankle, and then fracturing the same leg less than a year later.
That they wanted DEPENDABLE backups and also wanted to move a different direction in health. It is a reason Beason is gone. It is a reason Prince is gone.
You make it sound like you just take former starters and put them as backups without:
a) Any pushback from those players who might want to start
b) Or, that they will be physically able to play if called upon.
You don't "steal money" by having a plate grafted to your broken ankle, and then fracturing the same leg less than a year later.
You don't need to take what I said THAT literally. Obviously, Schwartz didn't plan on getting injured. The reality was, he woke up almost every day on this roster hurt.
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
There are probably some people who would want Randle as a 4th WR, but you still have mistakes to deal with. Christ, people wanted to run Preston Parker out of town and the guy worked his ass off, but couldn't catch the ball consistently, yet they'd be happy with a guy in a similar position who has brain fart after brain fart that kills drives?
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no malice in my thoughts but I guess I'm just confused that some fans still think Schwartz should have any place on this team. That signing was an utter disaster.
schwartz,Beatty, Beason and Cruz all did not work out for us. A shame.
Cruz did not work out for us? Do you think before you post?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
Well that seals it - I'm not voting for you to be GM fella
And that's with ignoring the fact that you need to keep a 53 man roster and injured players have a way of fucking that up a bit.
But sticking to Beatty, what makes you think he would want to be a Giant in 2016 and beyond after being cut?
I get that they will be hurt, I get that continuity is important, and frankly Schwartz's release doesn't bother me AS much - but you cannot tell me that a line with Beatty at LT and Flowers at RT (or even vice versa for fuck's sake) would be better than having Newhouse on this line.
Having Newhouse and Jerry as backups to a line of Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers would be so so so much better than what we have now.
Flowers better blossom (lol) into a great player, otherwise this will be looked at as a huge miscalculation IMO. I really hope we do not have an offense that is on the verge of breaking out but is held back by the O-line. The O-line has consistently been an issue since 2011, it's mind boggling that they made so many moves to sure it up but refused to finish the job by adding the last piece of the puzzle (another tackle)
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if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
He must have REALLY pissed off the Giants last year. But man, he makes this line MUCH better, cause as soft as he is, he is lightyears better than Newhouse.
I get that they will be hurt, I get that continuity is important, and frankly Schwartz's release doesn't bother me AS much - but you cannot tell me that a line with Beatty at LT and Flowers at RT (or even vice versa for fuck's sake) would be better than having Newhouse on this line.
Which Beatty are you discussing? The good Beatty from 5 years ago? Or the present Beatty - who isn't good - and always hurt?
Does everyone recall the Beatty from 2013? He was literally dreadful.
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In comment 13071165 ryanmkeane said:
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if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
I can't answer that question because I dont have a job that budgets over 100 million for employees. I can't compare an insurance agency to an offensive lineman.
I was ecstatic when they let go of both of these guys, and Prince as well. By all accounts good people - but unreliable football players who aren't that great anyway.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I'm actually impressed by John Jerry. He took that huge step on his own and is likely a better player for it. I'm now looking forward to seeing just how much JJ has improved. I know he had a key run block perfectly executed in Friday's game.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
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I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
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In comment 13071169 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13071165 ryanmkeane said:
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if you owned a business and had to hire 2 people to complete your team - would you choose the guys that were talented but pretty much knew weren't going to show up to work more than half the time? Or would you go with the 2 that you knew weren't high performers but were going to show up every day and work hard?
If I had 17 million in my budget I'd have all four.
By not realistically answering the question you are kinda making the point for us. The answer is no, you don't hire the better (arguably even) players if they don't show up or care about their job. And since you can't prove Beatty is a changed man, has a new found love for football, and won't get injured anymore, it really is a moot point. He isn't and shouldn't be an option for this team.
I can't answer that question because I dont have a job that budgets over 100 million for employees. I can't compare an insurance agency to an offensive lineman.
The guy who has that job wants nothing to do with either player. I get fans critiquing roster moves, its part of being a fan, but we didn't cut a couple above average players who may or may not be on the downturn of their careers. Both weren't good when they left, and were hurt constantly. Why do you want them back, just to say we have bodies? Because that's really all Shwartz was and likely Beatty as well.
I'm actually impressed by John Jerry. He took that huge step on his own and is likely a better player for it. I'm now looking forward to seeing just how much JJ has improved. I know he had a key run block perfectly executed in Friday's game.
You don't just show up. It's invitation-based. Bentley meets with people who want to go to work with him, and he doesn't take everyone. Richburg had to vouch for Jerry that he was serious about it.
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In comment 13071247 arcarsenal said:
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I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
Couldnt he have cut these guys after he found their replacements or capable backsups? Why do it before the draft, free agency or until you need the money?
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In comment 13071262 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 13071247 arcarsenal said:
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I guess just don't really understand the clamoring for 2 players who were both a part of the worst teams we've fielded in the last decade.
Beatty was a decent player for us but he didn't even play during the Super Bowl run in 2011 or the last month of that season. After the injuries and mileage and the questions surrounding his commitment to football, the Giants just got to a point where they wanted to move on. They had plenty of reason to.
I agree they had reasons to move on from him and schwartz. not replacing either with capable backups despite having money to do tells me that despite those reason the team would be better off with them, warts and all. That's all I'm saying.
Well, it's not like Reese sat on his hands all spring... we did bring Okung in here who had injury issues of his own and ultimately chose to go to Denver.. we also had interest in Monroe who chose to retire.
I don't think the FO was neglecting the position or not trying to find better depth but they made the decision that Schwartz and Beatty were two players they no longer wanted. Can't really blame them.
Couldnt he have cut these guys after he found their replacements or capable backsups? Why do it before the draft, free agency or until you need the money?
Because once again, the Giants did not want these players back. No circumstance was going to change that.
Because they already had a ton of cap space and if needed could have cut him in a moments notice to make additional room if they needed it which they wound up not needing.
We clearly won't agree on this issue and that's fine, but you can't keep questioning every single thing about a player or players that weren't very good here. Its not like we cut Strahan after 2007 with gas clearly left in the tank.
We clearly won't agree on this issue and that's fine, but you can't keep questioning every single thing about a player or players that weren't very good here. Its not like we cut Strahan after 2007 with gas clearly left in the tank.
Fair enough. I dont care about losing a guy like Randle because he was replaced with an asset. Just think the line has been such a problem here we should have kept every decent player possible as long as it didnt effect the cap.
Hopefully Hart can make a push.
Move the hell on.
Move the hell on.
Amen brother
What's the difference if Beatty and Schwartz are light years better. Neither one can stay on the field due to their health
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In comment 13070942 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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Still dont get why they cut both Beatty and Schwartz. They didnt need the cap space and both would be valuable depth.
Beatty was injured and remains unemployed. I thought the same about Schwartz but Reese got killed around here for signing him in the first place and then killed even more when he couldn't stay healthy. He'll play 16 games for Detroit this year. That's a lock. Ugh.
Beatty is going to get a job eventually. Him and Schwartz are light years better than anyone that's a backup on the OL.
Is what it is. With the amount of money leftover in the cap I dont see how both Jerry and Newhouse are still starting.
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
Speaking of redundancy, do you ever get tired of posting the same thing over and over again?
Figuring "more of the same" is a formula, we pass up free agent tackles and use free agency to secure another corner - or, shall we say - another redundancy.
Well I suppose you can never have enough pass rushers or cornerback, still it is puzzling.
I know I know ..."nutting", I have faith in JR and don't think he'll let Newsome hold a team that I think is capable of dominating from beginning to end.
But inquring minds would love to see it.
They needed to draft a good replacement corner immediately. From what I hear, this is DRC's last year with the Giants. So at least they will have Jenkins & Apple at CB in 2017.
Well, it's good to cut guys to move in a different direction, but then you've got to come up with the guys to go in that direction, and we haven't. I understand the problems with Beatty, but he's still probably in the top 4-5 OL on this team, and arguably better than Flowers at this point.
People can't scream "Kuhn shouldn't be on the team" but clamor for Beatty to stay here, because realistically, they serve the same utility. Both are JAG's who make the team weaker if they are forced to play.
If you are going to have a JAG around, you have to have it be somebody who wants to play. Kuhn had heart and when he left, people would've paid his bus ticket out. Beatty could care less and people act like not signing him is a mistake.
I don't get the disconnect here sometimes.
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Beatty and Schwartz were cut then you really just don't understand how OLine play works or the direction this FO wants this team to go in.
Well, it's good to cut guys to move in a different direction, but then you've got to come up with the guys to go in that direction, and we haven't. I understand the problems with Beatty, but he's still probably in the top 4-5 OL on this team, and arguably better than Flowers at this point.
I have no idea how you can drawn that conclusion. What are you basing your assessment of Beatty on? And no, that isn't how it works. In this scenario the Giants didn't want Beatty under any circumstances, which is obvious by how quickly he was cut and all the rumblings leading up to it.
It's beating a dead horse. If you weren't on board with Beattys exit, you never will be.
You don't get to this level by "not caring". And you certainly don't stay in the league for 5+ years as an offensive lineman by not caring. The nature of the job weeds out the people who want to do it for a living a lot earlier than this.
But that was the perception of Beatty - not my perception - the team's. I have n o clue what Beatty's enthusiasm level is. Like I stated way up above, he was viewed as mercurial even in pre-draft interviews. My opinion of him is the same I took with a lot of players - his injuries put him in a position where he simply isn't that good of a player anymore.
Couple injuries with the perception he's more interested in things other than football, and you have a recipe for how not to stick around too long.
He repaid that by bowing out with a questionable injury last season which the team felt he should have at least tried to get something done with. Result is he was adiosed.
You don't get to this level by "not caring". And you certainly don't stay in the league for 5+ years as an offensive lineman by not caring. The nature of the job weeds out the people who want to do it for a living a lot earlier than this.
I think this is a very level headed post. One thing I'll add that avoids the issue of mind reading Will Beatty is that as good or serviceable as he was during his best stretches of play - it was NEVER as good as the Giants' FO and coaches expected of Will, given his AA, strength, and size.
No way I am going to bother to dig up the specific quotes over the years that led me to this conclusion, but I can paraphrase two from memory.
Once Flaherty said of Beatty, early in his career as a starter, that Will "spent too much time (or mental energy) focusing on countering what opponents would throw at him, rather than focusing on himself and what HE could do to dominate his opponents."
The other was a comment by Reese justifying Will's second contract. He said the large value $$ of the contact (many in the press and on BBI questioned if Reese "overpaid" to retain Will's services) was based on what they expected of Will GOING FORWARD.
In short, the team ALWAYS EXPECTED Beatty to become a better player than he ever became. His AA was outstanding, he had prototypical height, arm length, girth, weight room strength, really good feet... it just never came together for Will like many on the team (including the guy who cut his paychecks) thought it would.
The deal of taking up a roster spot last year was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I don't know that Will's off field interests or dedication to playing football was so important as him simply not performing to the level they expected from him was.