I think Cruz has 2 weeks left to prove he can hack it and play through a full game. August 27th vs the Jets is going to be a very VERY big game for Victor and quite possibly his last chance to prove he can make the team.
I think Cruz has 2 weeks left to prove he can hack it and play through a full game. August 27th vs the Jets is going to be a very VERY big game for Victor and quite possibly his last chance to prove he can make the team.
which is ironic, cuz his break out game was against the jets...
cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
Not necessarily true. If the Giants were up against the cap right now it would make some sense to wait but they aren't up against the cap. They cut Cruz now they aren't kicking the can down the road. They can move on quicker than later.
You cut Cruz if he can't play anymore. Period. You don't IR a guy if you know he isn't playing anymore.
cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
You're missing the significance of the $3M in weekly roster bonuses that Cruz is due in 2016. That is $3M more out of Giants pocket. It boosts his "live" cap hit a million over his dead cap hit and is $3M they can't carry over to 2017.
It's not that simple. If his $2.4MM salary is guaranteed, and he only gets his per-game bonuses if he dresses (two assumptions, but not huge ones), then keeping him costs nothing until he can play.
Yep and as Giants2012 said...Pats will sign him the next
cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
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Actually I was wrong, and I'm no capologist like Optimus so this is my understanding since now it's a post 6/1 cut.
The Giants save 100k on the cap by cutting Cruz, but will have 4.3M dead this year and 1.9M dead next year (but save 7.5M next year).
if they want until next year. it's the same. (1.9M dead - his pro-rated signing bonus) and 7.5M saved.
there is little financial incentive to cut him this year, but as noted, IR means 3 years on IR and unlikely to come back, but selfishly it keeps him off another roster in case he tries a comeback and if you're paying for him anyway, makes sense IMO to keep him this year and IR him if he can't play.
It would make ZERO sense to IR him. That would make it 3 years
There is nothing unusual about a groin injury early in camp. If it was OBJ or Roger Lewis, people would think nothing of it. It has nothing to do with his knee injury or his calf injury. And the fact that he hasn't picked up where he left off in terms of burst is also not so unusual and it doesn't mean it won't come back. How often have we heard that it can take two years to come back from an ACL: one year rehabbing it and one year playing on it.
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
RE: It would make ZERO sense to IR him. That would make it 3 years
since he last played a game by 2017. He may as well retire.
I was only suggesting financially it would make more sense. If you're not going to save money, why cut him unless it's the roster spot, in which case IR does the same thing.
djm...no they don't but I think they would take a chance on this one.
"Per-game bonus" money can be contingent on making the active list, not just being on the 53-man roster.
I was about to reply. Your first assumption (that he already has 2.4M guaranteed in new money) is correct.
I cannot say 100% on the character of the roster bonus. But I would be very surprised if VC agreed to a contract that would allow the Giants to trap him on IR without having to pay him. And I don't see any great motivation for the Giants to seek that concession.
There is nothing unusual about a groin injury early in camp. If it was OBJ or Roger Lewis, people would think nothing of it. It has nothing to do with his knee injury or his calf injury. And the fact that he hasn't picked up where he left off in terms of burst is also not so unusual and it doesn't mean it won't come back. How often have we heard that it can take two years to come back from an ACL: one year rehabbing it and one year playing on it.
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
That's what was said about his "tweaked" calf last year. He's getting hurt without getting hit.
He's probably going to get every opportunity to succeed or fail
But at the end of the day, if he can't go, or has lost his ability, yes, he will get cut for someone younger.
But it won't be because he has a sore groin right now. If it drags and drags, and gets reaggravated and he can't play in the preseason, sure. But a normal, tight/sore groin isn't a big deal right now.
There is nothing unusual about a groin injury early in camp. If it was OBJ or Roger Lewis, people would think nothing of it.
What's interesting is that beat writers were complaining about fans jumping off the Cruz band wagon when he strained his groin. But as time has gone on, he missed the Miami preseason game, couldnt do much of anything yesterday, the tone of beat writers has dramatically changed. Anita is the first to go out on a limb and be so explicit about it.
There is nothing unusual about a groin injury early in camp. If it was OBJ or Roger Lewis, people would think nothing of it. It has nothing to do with his knee injury or his calf injury. And the fact that he hasn't picked up where he left off in terms of burst is also not so unusual and it doesn't mean it won't come back. How often have we heard that it can take two years to come back from an ACL: one year rehabbing it and one year playing on it.
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
It's different when it comes after a bad knee injury which sidelined him for 2/3 of the 2014 season, which was followed up by a calf issue that was supposed to be "minor" and wound up sidelining him for all of 2015 and now in 2016, he still can't get healthy enough to run full speed and actually play in a game.
cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
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Actually I was wrong, and I'm no capologist like Optimus so this is my understanding since now it's a post 6/1 cut.
The Giants save 100k on the cap by cutting Cruz, but will have 4.3M dead this year and 1.9M dead next year (but save 7.5M next year).
if they want until next year. it's the same. (1.9M dead - his pro-rated signing bonus) and 7.5M saved.
there is little financial incentive to cut him this year, but as noted, IR means 3 years on IR and unlikely to come back, but selfishly it keeps him off another roster in case he tries a comeback and if you're paying for him anyway, makes sense IMO to keep him this year and IR him if he can't play.
What you're saying makes sense, but I too would defer to Optimus on this.
IMHO, if he can't play this year odds are he won't ever be able to play. If this is the case, wouldn't they IR him, negotiate an injury settlement and allow him to retire, (a la David Wilson)?
RE: RE: Shyster: Are you sure he gets that money if he doesn't dress?
"Per-game bonus" money can be contingent on making the active list, not just being on the 53-man roster.
I was about to reply. Your first assumption (that he already has 2.4M guaranteed in new money) is correct.
I cannot say 100% on the character of the roster bonus. But I would be very surprised if VC agreed to a contract that would allow the Giants to trap him on IR without having to pay him. And I don't see any great motivation for the Giants to seek that concession.
That's the IR issue. As for the "dressing" issue, I have the same take. I'd be surprised if he agreed and I don't see any real motivation for the team to put that in. It's not as though the Giants want to keep him around if he can help in 2016.
I assume if they cut him he will hope to catch on with someone else after the start of the season I never thought he could come back 100% but figured he'd at least contribute thjsnysar. Now this groin thing just seems bit too much. He cant be relied upon at this point. Shame but they cant keep praying he can play when hes always hurt
IR makes very little sense if they think he might contribute this year
Assuming Cruz doesn't get paid his per-game bonus if inactive due to injury, there's only one problem with carrying him as the sixth WR: it means possibly exposing a promising young player to waivers and practice-squad poaching who could otherwise be protected on the roster. Is that a big deal? I dunno. How do the Giants see Lewis, Powe, LaCosse, Adams, etc.? Equally important, how does the rest of the NFL see them?
RE: RE: RE: Shyster: Are you sure he gets that money if he doesn't dress?
But at the end of the day, if he can't go, or has lost his ability, yes, he will get cut for someone younger.
But it won't be because he has a sore groin right now. If it drags and drags, and gets reaggravated and he can't play in the preseason, sure. But a normal, tight/sore groin isn't a big deal right now.
every opportunity up to and including the Jets game.
RE: Yep and as Giants2012 said...Pats will sign him the next
He'll turn 30 in November. Aging on top of the injuries and being on the shelf for two years? It's going to take a miracle. It sucks, but that's reality.
'Split salaries' of one sort or another are common in the NFL:
The player gets one pay rate if he is active; a much lower rate if he's on the sideline in street clothes.
Why would Cruz have accepted an arrangement that cut his pay and put more than half his remaining 2016 comp at the discretion of the team? Well, he wouldn't, in a vacuum; but remember, he also got a $2.4MM guarantee, so he got something from the negotiation too. Plus, he can trust the Giants not to sideline him for meaningful games just to save money. If he's able to contribute, he knows he will dress and get the extra ~$190K per game.
Beat writers and observers are down based on 2013 to present
said until he proves that he can run, cut, catch and take a hit in preseason games "how can you keep him?". Thinks he need to play in 2 straight games, show something and "come out clean".
I think this has as much to do with him regressing than just injuries. When playing, he wasn't doing much anyways.
He had the one terrible game against Arizona in Week 2, with the three costly drops. But he bounced back with 100-yard-plus games against Houston and Washington. He got hurt two weeks later.
After the insane breakout year in 2011, Cruz was basically a 70-yard-per-game receiver, with normal week-to-week variation. That's not gaudy, but I don't think he ever fell off a cliff. He was just never going to reproduce that ridiculous run that began in Philly in 2011.
RE: 'Split salaries' of one sort or another are common in the NFL:
The player gets one pay rate if he is active; a much lower rate if he's on the sideline in street clothes.
Why would Cruz have accepted an arrangement that cut his pay and put more than half his remaining 2016 comp at the discretion of the team? Well, he wouldn't, in a vacuum; but remember, he also got a $2.4MM guarantee, so he got something from the negotiation too. Plus, he can trust the Giants not to sideline him for meaningful games just to save money. If he's able to contribute, he knows he will dress and get the extra ~$190K per game.
For what it's worth, spotrac calls it a "per game" bonus not a roster bonus. And no indication of a split rate.
I can't prove it but I doubt there is any way Giants avoid the 187.5K per game obligation (from the get go) other than to flat cut him.
The idea that Cruz' knee injury ended such a great longshot career
Against atlanta, hardly earth shattering. He led the league in drops before getting hurt. And as I stress again..... he wasn't that good in 2013 either. He has been regressing every year he has been in the league and has had 2 major injuries now a third injury. It is not far fetch to think that he is simply not that good anymore. It sucks, but it may be true.
I know the Jets would jump at the opportunity to get Cruz back.
I wouldn't think he'd need the motivation, but this is just so bizarre. Was the groin the final straw? Because up until then, things have been positive on both sides.
We have about 2 weeks left to play out this Cruz drama for the last time. I do not believe for a second Mac will let Cruz be a distraction beyond the next few weeks. And I do not care where he goes after he is cut. I wish him the best moving forward.
We've got some young guys who are going to be hard to keep off of the final 53.. If you don't get healthy fast and start competing... We're going to have to IR you...
We've got some young guys who are going to be hard to keep off of the final 53.. If you don't get healthy fast and start competing... We're going to have to IR you...
He's got a groin, so why would he be put on notice? Is it like, "Get back on the field even if your groin worsens in doing so?"
He's been out for 2 years... I would imagine that whatever heart to heart McAdoo chose to keep private wasn't... "Hey Vic, let's get this groin healed up because you're running with the 1s"...
Not saying that Cruz is being a puss... But if the groin lingers... He's likely going to the IR... again...
it makes sense considering they've spent all off season giving him extra rest and holding him out of workouts from time to time. What they're going to do is "light a fire" under him so he can turn a pull or strain into a tear. That will clearly help the situation.
Or it doesn't make sense at all.
RE: I know the Jets would jump at the opportunity to get Cruz back.
but he's due an awful lot next year and the year after. Even if he comes back a good but not great player, that's a lot to spend on a #3 that doesn't really contribute to specials. You have to consider the future outlook and maybe using the money to lock up Pugh and Hank.
"Vic- we love you man, but we can't carry dead weight based on nonstalgia and loyalty. Maybe Tom Coughlin would do that but that isn't how thing are now. We want you out there catching those short passes from Eli and making those great cuts you used to make. Either do that starting like now, or we can't have you as part of the team anymore. If you are injured, we both will do what we have to do. If you are hurt, I suggest that you do whatever you can to get out there."
Are there options to give him time to return later in the season?
PUP is off the table because he practiced. IR with designation is possible, but his situation doesn't really fit and the Giants have tended to keep that card in their pockets for an injury that fits the ~8-week timeframe.
I've been hearing "he's back" for so long...and then he doesn't play for one of a hundred new reasons. Personally, I can't take the teasing. Put him on the field in a game and see what he can still do. If he can't get on the field and stay on the field, then it's time to move on regardless of the financial aspects of the decision.
I love the guy, but I also have become impatient with Giants' injuries and believe in cutting our losses and moving on with healthy alternatives
isn't a good choice for Cruz IMO, because his contribution is uncertain.
He's been out for almost 2 years and no guarantee he can come back and you get only 1 player to use that on.
the Giants might need to save that for someone who is a surer bet to be able to return and contribute at some point.
I would elaborate by adding that, to the extent Cruz can contribute in 2016, it's as likely to happen in Week 4 as in Week 10. The player designated for return should be somebody with basically no chance of contributing in September and October, but, as pjcas18 says, a high likelihood of contributing later. That points toward injuries with a fairly long but specific recovery timeframe, like a broken fibula.
Are there options to give him time to return later in the season?
PUP is off the table because he practiced. IR with designation is possible, but his situation doesn't really fit and the Giants have tended to keep that card in their pockets for an injury that fits the ~8-week timeframe.
IR with Designation is not an option, either. The premise of this discussion is whether Cruz makes the 53 man roster. In order to be placed on the IR with designation to return, he must make the 53 man roster first. The only options are Make the 53/IR/Cut.
Cruz either has it or doesn't have it. I don't think Cruz has shown anything this camp other than poor exceleration and cutting ability. I thought he would be able to come back and play well but wide receivers and runners age fast in the modern day NFL. Hopefully Cruz can recover but it doesn't look like he will.
It's hilarious how some people run with her prediction
Thank you! Its Anita Fucking Marks...Does anyone actually listen to what she says on a day-to-day basis? Does anyone really think that the Giant FO is sending a message through Anita Marks?
She may be the worst of the worst of local sports reporters in this area. Three quarters of the posters on this site know more about this team than she does. Have you ever seen her reporting? Yeah, let's ask Landon Collins what his favorite color is? ... She's an embarrassment to good woman reporters like Kim Jones. I'm actually surprised she knew who Roger Lewis. Wow - Victor Cruz might get cut if he doesn't recover from his groin injury! That's breaking news?
Like AP said, consider the source.
Anita Marks isn't the reporter the Giants use to send messages
Anita Marks spent the whole off-season harping on and on about Myles Jack. Why? Well only she knows, but my guess it's because most of the nfl world was too so she knew she couldn't fail with that one. She provided no analysis of why Myles Jack would fit the Giants, just said his name with some superlatives thrown in.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
Anita Marks spent the whole off-season harping on and on about Myles Jack. Why? Well only she knows, but my guess it's because most of the nfl world was too so she knew she couldn't fail with that one. She provided no analysis of why Myles Jack would fit the Giants, just said his name with some superlatives thrown in.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
Anita Marks spent the whole off-season harping on and on about Myles Jack. Why? Well only she knows, but my guess it's because most of the nfl world was too so she knew she couldn't fail with that one. She provided no analysis of why Myles Jack would fit the Giants, just said his name with some superlatives thrown in.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
Cruz has to play in the preseason games and show something
Last year was more understandable with the calf as a compensation injury. But a groin injury? C'mon. Does this guy stretch?
Groin injuries are very common in all major sports...I venture to say most, if not all of those affected, stretched that and other areas. That's what they do
but some of you need to step back and look at this objectively. She's not making some absurd prediction to drum up clicks. So far he has not been able to showcase his ability, if that continues through week 3 or 4 in preseason how can you justify keeping me? I love me some Victor Cruz, but being out of action for 2 years, we all knew he has a tremendous uphill battle ahead of him to make the team.
and makes the team. If the injury is unrelated to his previous injury and he's expected to return by Dallas he will be on the team. He's been practicing and the coaches know what he can and can't do.
How would the coaches know what he can or cannot do?
We haven't seen him let it rip on the practice field in quite some time, and don't know how he's lost. How do you justify holding a roster spot for him when you have nothing to go off of to evaluate? You can't be rewarding guys for past accomplishments.
I think this has as much to do with him regressing than just injuries. When playing, he wasn't doing much anyways. It's a cutthroat league.
The Giants brass would do cartwheels if Cruz brought his 2013-2014 talents to this team. Everyone knows 2011 was a comet. It's gone never to return. But Cruz was a solid WR early on 2014. He had some nice plays (home against Houston) early on that year.
we're talking about the last spot for a WR who will never see a snap. Unless the guy is a stud special teamer there's no way he beats out Cruz.
By all accounts no one has seen him flash his speed and explosion in practice. We know OBJ and Shepard are shoo ins to make it. Geremy Davis has been making the most out of his opportunities, and we know Dwayne Harris can fill in a pinch if we need him. Those last few guys on the roster are going to have to contribute to special teams, but they've given the coaches more to work with than Cruz running 3/4 speed from an evaluation standpoint.
but can anyone find a link that quotes exactly what she said? Not doubting the OP, but i can't find anything that confirms what she supposedly said. Is it possible she couched her remarks with "in my opinion"?
if the Giants are trying to steer clear of injury prone players
Last year he wasn't officially IR'd until week 10. Randle's knees were shot and he needed a rest. Harris was getting beat up and pulling double duty as slot and return man. They absolutely got burned holding that roster spot. If he can't get in the preseason, I'm guessing he's gone.
name a wide receiver who was out for as long a time as Victor, and made it back to even three-quarters of what he was, pre-Injury? I can't. I like Cruz but it's time for McAdoo to play the Stones' "Baby, Baby you're out of time."
If true this will be one prediction I wish I had been wrong about
Brutal league, brutal business. But of course the Giants will cut Cruz if he doesn't get on the field for two preseason games. This isn't a surprise. The real question is what the Giants do if Vic gets on the field and doesn't do much. And that's an even more interesting question because of the work Shep and the other rooks are doing at WR position in camp.
Banks has been talking for years about "scholarship players", guys that were drafted or signed and stuck around through injury and lack of production. I'm not sure he has Cruz in mind when he talks of these scholarship players, but then again, maybe he does. Banks played for a guy who was notorious for cutting a big name in camp. It's a tough tough business.
When the Giants line up for game #3 and WR Victor Cruz isn't out there and performing well, we'll likely have our answer for his future.
I think the media may be "over-reading" things here a bit but not by much. I think the media and observers are looking at Victor Cruz's "body of work" since his injuries in 2013 to current. He simply hasn't been super productive.
I would not be shocked to see a youth movement this year:
TE Lacosse for TE Donnell?
LB Bars for LB Herzlich?
CB Deayon for CB Wade?
DT Millhouse for DT Nix or Hughes (big body vets?)?
I think Lacosse and Mallek could make it to the PS, but TE J. Adams would not.
I think DT Millhouse could make it to the PS, but I would not risk it given his play to date. I just wouldn't want him starting or taking major time as he is still raw and small.
Cruz missed almost the full year prior to his breakout season.
So really, the total is
2 full seasons
2 completely missed seasons
1 year with 2/3s of the year missed.
So that's more than 1/2 his career over 5 seasons spent injured. And that's "play a game, miss a game, play a game, miss a game." That's season ending injuries in for 3 of the 5 years.
It's very, very fair to be concerned at this point.
Cruz missed almost the full year prior to his breakout season.
So really, the total is
2 full seasons
2 completely missed seasons
1 year with 2/3s of the year missed.
So that's more than 1/2 his career over 5 seasons spent injured. And that's "play a game, miss a game, play a game, miss a game." That's season ending injuries in for 3 of the 5 years.
It's very, very fair to be concerned at this point.
Well said, very well said. If a few veterans are cut including Cruz, well, the only thing we can say is thanks for your service to date. Victor Cruz, Eli, DL and Nicks gave us the SB in 2011 and I'll never forget that season. I'll cherish it as a miracle on par with the 1980 Olympic Hockey Team Gold over the Russians!
Cruz, JT Thomas, Larry Donnell, T. Wade, C. Taylor are all on the bubble.
Look, I get it, the best ability is availability and Cruz has been MIA for quite some time. Lets give him past week 1 of the pre-season before we start writing his obituary.
The guy was a key component to a SUPER BOWL, yes I know it was half a decade ago but give him his time.....the Giants guaranteed his $2.4 this season so I doubt they cut him, even if he cant perform. They may ask him to retire or offer him a special assistant type of role but i doubt they cut bait.
Its upsetting to see so many people so eager to move on from a guy who was as explosive and impact-full over a short period of time as any...yea i know sheppard looks good and lewis is performing well but do you remember sinorice moss or corey washington. both played real well in the pre-season and were worthless in the regular season......( i doubt sheppard performs poorly but you know what i mean here)
If we get 30 receptions and 400 yards out of cruz this year, im pretty happy with that..he doesnt need to be big play victor anymore, he just needs to catch a few balls to open up room for beckham, sheppard, tye, vereen, jennings, or donnell( hope he doesnt make the final roster)...
lets give him a shot to be the 4th or 5th wideout before we write him off....will he be 1,500 yard, huge play cruz again, unfortunately not. but he may have somehting left and if he does lets use it. after all ill take 60-75 victor cruz over a lot of receiver in the nfl and i know numerous teams would as well.
All I know is Anita Marks is the worst radio show host I've ever heard and it's not even close, she was filling in for Rothenberg tonight. She's basically a glorified fantasy football "expert". I know she's connected with the Giants and I know things aren't going particularly well right now with Cruz but this prediction couldn't mean less to me.
I would not be shocked to see a youth movement this year:
TE Lacosse for TE Donnell?
Why not? Donnell is in the last year of his contract and can't block. I'm not saying it will happen but I am saying if it did I wouldn't be totally shocked.
I think WR G. Davis is ahead of WR Lewis on the depth chart.
Personally, I'm hoping Cruz has a nice game #2 Saturday 4pm vs Bills and all this "cut Cruz" talk goes to the toilet. He better get heatlhy quick! We really do need him this year!
I am still holding out a shade of hope that he's traded along with a conditional pick for a RT. It would have to be a quality guy, someone you don't think will ever be waived. I'd rather get a guy in NOW then next week but obviously these types of trades are rare. One can only wish!
I am still holding out a shade of hope that he's traded along with a conditional pick for a RT. It would have to be a quality guy, someone you don't think will ever be waived. I'd rather get a guy in NOW then next week but obviously these types of trades are rare. One can only wish!
No one wants Donnell. I wish we didnt either.
This may be more of an indictment on me as a Giants fan...
is his health but once he is healthy he is a top level threat i had no problem with letting the likes of randle, amukamara,manningham leave as they were less than stellar players even when fit
but you have to keep cruz incase another team in the division gets him, its a nothing injury anyway its a strain due to the lack of real game time, due to the past serious injuries
there was plenty of talk when beckham missed the start of his rookie year with various muscle strains and hamstring problems people wanting him cut he already took a paycut he will make the 53 roster and when he gives them the 3 headed monster at WR they want this discussion will look very silly
cutting Cruz saves $100K with $4.3mill in dead money...yikes.
If he's close to making it, he'll make it at that money.
Not the case. Note the comment in fine print above the OTC chart:
"According to Jordan Raanan, Cruz reduced his cap number by $5.5 million and can earn $3 million of that back in weekly roster bonuses."
As kicked around at beginning of thread, that $3 million is what the Giants save by cutting VC before week 1. If they put him on the roster, the $3M fritters away 1/16th (or 1/17th) at a clip. It is money out of pocket; it is money against 2016 cap; and it is money that can't be carried over to 2017.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
reading this list makes me wince. I think RB Wilson would be dynamic in this offense.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
reading this list makes me wince. I think RB Wilson would be dynamic in this offense.
Again?? based on what. He didn't understand the playbook, couldn't be relied on to be where he belonged. Couldn't block. Fumbler. HE would have been a dynamic KO returner and 5-7 touch situational player
RE: This may be more of an indictment on me as a Giants fan...
But I hadn't even heard of Anita Marks until this thread. Podcasts?
Not really an indictment. She does some TV work for the team and has a radio show on the weekends, but she's not an information source. She's just a fan. Her area of any expertise is fantasy sports.
But I hadn't even heard of Anita Marks until this thread. Podcasts?
Not really an indictment. She does some TV work for the team and has a radio show on the weekends, but she's not an information source. She's just a fan. Her area of any expertise is fantasy sports.
Cruz has basically 2 weeks plus a few quarters of 2 pre-season games to show he can be a WR in the NFL again.
If he somehow can play versus Buffalo, don't be surprised to see him start with Eli and have one of the first plays called in his direction...as I imagine the coaches will give him every last chance to prove himself.
You know everybody wants him to make it, but the odds are seemingly getting worse. Even if he makes the final 53...tough to see any material contributions.
but I'm not holding my breath that we will see the 2011 version of victor cruz ever again. the guy who made the incredible catch and runs against the eagles, jets and cowboys and who had the monster first half in the nfcc against san Francisco. I'm not sure he has the quickness and speed to evade pro cornerbacks given his injuries and father time.
Man, he'll just be another to add onto the pile in recent years:
Nicks
Phillips
T2
Steve Smith
Manningham
David Wilson
Sheesh. Lot of talent right there that had to retire prematurely. Sad.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
except for Wilson ..I think all these players were victims of our terrible S & C program
Obviously the NFL is a brutal sport but look at this year so far compared to last year .. it is night and day in terms of injuries to our team.
I am amazed that Giants went on so long with their S & C program , when it was obvious to just about everyone how bad it was.
So the Giants S&C program can be attributed to Steve Smith's knee exploding and T2's knee exploding and the wheels falling off Nicks and Mario? Really?
And after one-two months of practice it's safe to proclaim that the new and improved S&C program is going to keep all our beloved Giants players healthy and safe? No more injuries? The big bad Coughlin regime won't be ruining any more NYG seasons...is that it?
I totally get going with the new conditioning program. It was time for a change. There were an insane amount of injuries here lately and maybe, MAYBE, things were as bad as some want to believe but more than likely it falls somewhere in the middle. Cmon. Don't tell me that some state of the art facility and bright new ideas was going to keep all those older and broken down players from getting hurt the last few years. It's never THAT easy or simple. If it was, every team going wouldn't suffer injuries year in year out. There is no science to this. The system is broken because the players are too big and too ripped. Their bodies can't handle the rigors and stress that they are dealing with.
that the new S&C regime might reduce injuries. Just by the sheer fact that it is damn hard to duplicate what happened before will give them a bump.
My biggest beef is with that above list of players. Really, not a single one of them had nagging injuries. If you wanted to choose guys like that, go with Schwartz, Baas, Beason, Cooper, etc.
The poster above picked guys who had a significant or catastrophic injury and tried to blame it on the trainers as being ones that led to "nagging injuries". I don't even know anyone on that list who had nagging injuries.
RE: This may be more of an indictment on me as a Giants fan...
that the new S&C regime might reduce injuries. Just by the sheer fact that it is damn hard to duplicate what happened before will give them a bump.
My biggest beef is with that above list of players. Really, not a single one of them had nagging injuries. If you wanted to choose guys like that, go with Schwartz, Baas, Beason, Cooper, etc.
The poster above picked guys who had a significant or catastrophic injury and tried to blame it on the trainers as being ones that led to "nagging injuries". I don't even know anyone on that list who had nagging injuries.
Agreed. What's the saying? Correlation does not imply causation? I pray the Giants go through this season injury free and I can sit here and bitch and moan come January that Correlation does not imply causation...please let that happen...
Anyone expecting the 2011-2012 Cruz is going to be sadly disappointed. That player does not exist anymore. Tearing an ACL is 1 thing, the Patella is a different world. Who has had that injury and come back
The truth is he really has not participated in even a full contact practice since his injury.
How could there be anything but doubt at this point. You are healthy or not. He has 2-3 weeks to show he can even get on the field. if not, the Giants have to move on. It is the nature of the game
Anyone expecting the 2011-2012 Cruz is going to be sadly disappointed. That player does not exist anymore. Tearing an ACL is 1 thing, the Patella is a different world. Who has had that injury and come back
Jimmy Graham was cleared to return to practice this week, that I know.
The most interesting article on this subject reviewed NFL players with ruptured patellar tendons from 1994 to 20041. A total of 24 NFL players sustained a ruptured patellar tendon in that interval of time. Of those players, 19 of 24 returned to play (79%). Those who returned had been taken earlier in the NFL Draft, and that is not surprising given players drafted in later rounds are not likely to get as many opportunities to return from injury. Those players who did return played an average number of 45 games (range 1 to 145 games), and the total number of games played pre and post-injury exceeded the career average for NFL players (76 games vs 57 games), suggesting these players had a longer NFL career despite ruptured patellar tendons. All but two players missed the remainder of the season, but all were able to return the following year. The two players who returned the same season either had a partial rupture or sustained the injury in the off-season and had more time to recover. Only one player had a re-rupture of his patellar tendon (4%), and he was able to play another 60 games after his second surgery.
Some soccer players have come back, and this was noted just before camp started. They say it takes about 2 years to come back from the patella fully so Cruz is "healed all the way" now.
My hope is he practices no later than Thursday and plays on Saturday FULL SPEED. By 4:30pm, we may know if Cruz is for real or just a body trying to hang on for one more paycheck.
If he is now a body without the required separation burst, well, cutting him and saving money makes sense.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
which is ironic, cuz his break out game was against the jets...
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
The next week or so is huge for Cruz. No other way to put it.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
Not necessarily true. If the Giants were up against the cap right now it would make some sense to wait but they aren't up against the cap. They cut Cruz now they aren't kicking the can down the road. They can move on quicker than later.
You cut Cruz if he can't play anymore. Period. You don't IR a guy if you know he isn't playing anymore.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
You're missing the significance of the $3M in weekly roster bonuses that Cruz is due in 2016. That is $3M more out of Giants pocket. It boosts his "live" cap hit a million over his dead cap hit and is $3M they can't carry over to 2017.
It's not that simple. If his $2.4MM salary is guaranteed, and he only gets his per-game bonuses if he dresses (two assumptions, but not huge ones), then keeping him costs nothing until he can play.
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cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
Actually I was wrong, and I'm no capologist like Optimus so this is my understanding since now it's a post 6/1 cut.
The Giants save 100k on the cap by cutting Cruz, but will have 4.3M dead this year and 1.9M dead next year (but save 7.5M next year).
if they want until next year. it's the same. (1.9M dead - his pro-rated signing bonus) and 7.5M saved.
there is little financial incentive to cut him this year, but as noted, IR means 3 years on IR and unlikely to come back, but selfishly it keeps him off another roster in case he tries a comeback and if you're paying for him anyway, makes sense IMO to keep him this year and IR him if he can't play.
Because the Pats always sign oft injured players?
Wah?
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
I was only suggesting financially it would make more sense. If you're not going to save money, why cut him unless it's the roster spot, in which case IR does the same thing.
I was about to reply. Your first assumption (that he already has 2.4M guaranteed in new money) is correct.
I cannot say 100% on the character of the roster bonus. But I would be very surprised if VC agreed to a contract that would allow the Giants to trap him on IR without having to pay him. And I don't see any great motivation for the Giants to seek that concession.
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
That's what was said about his "tweaked" calf last year. He's getting hurt without getting hit.
But it won't be because he has a sore groin right now. If it drags and drags, and gets reaggravated and he can't play in the preseason, sure. But a normal, tight/sore groin isn't a big deal right now.
What's interesting is that beat writers were complaining about fans jumping off the Cruz band wagon when he strained his groin. But as time has gone on, he missed the Miami preseason game, couldnt do much of anything yesterday, the tone of beat writers has dramatically changed. Anita is the first to go out on a limb and be so explicit about it.
Cruz's fate is still to be determined and could go either way or somewhere inbetween. I don't see what is gained by being pessimistic.
It's different when it comes after a bad knee injury which sidelined him for 2/3 of the 2014 season, which was followed up by a calf issue that was supposed to be "minor" and wound up sidelining him for all of 2015 and now in 2016, he still can't get healthy enough to run full speed and actually play in a game.
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pjcas18 said:
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cannot get on the field I don't see him being cut.
It just makes terrible financial sense. he'd be IR'd before cut IMO.
The Giants lose 1.8M on the cap, not save it, by cutting him this year.
next year it would make a lot more financial sense to cut him.
How much is he actually guaranteed this year? It's not just a matter of current-year cap space. There's also the issue of throwing good money after bad.
I basically agree with your reasoning, and I think they'll give Cruz every possible chance before cutting bait. I'm just not certain of the financial facts.
\
Actually I was wrong, and I'm no capologist like Optimus so this is my understanding since now it's a post 6/1 cut.
The Giants save 100k on the cap by cutting Cruz, but will have 4.3M dead this year and 1.9M dead next year (but save 7.5M next year).
if they want until next year. it's the same. (1.9M dead - his pro-rated signing bonus) and 7.5M saved.
there is little financial incentive to cut him this year, but as noted, IR means 3 years on IR and unlikely to come back, but selfishly it keeps him off another roster in case he tries a comeback and if you're paying for him anyway, makes sense IMO to keep him this year and IR him if he can't play.
What you're saying makes sense, but I too would defer to Optimus on this.
IMHO, if he can't play this year odds are he won't ever be able to play. If this is the case, wouldn't they IR him, negotiate an injury settlement and allow him to retire, (a la David Wilson)?
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"Per-game bonus" money can be contingent on making the active list, not just being on the 53-man roster.
I was about to reply. Your first assumption (that he already has 2.4M guaranteed in new money) is correct.
I cannot say 100% on the character of the roster bonus. But I would be very surprised if VC agreed to a contract that would allow the Giants to trap him on IR without having to pay him. And I don't see any great motivation for the Giants to seek that concession.
That's the IR issue. As for the "dressing" issue, I have the same take. I'd be surprised if he agreed and I don't see any real motivation for the team to put that in. It's not as though the Giants want to keep him around if he can help in 2016.
Assuming Cruz doesn't get paid his per-game bonus if inactive due to injury, there's only one problem with carrying him as the sixth WR: it means possibly exposing a promising young player to waivers and practice-squad poaching who could otherwise be protected on the roster. Is that a big deal? I dunno. How do the Giants see Lewis, Powe, LaCosse, Adams, etc.? Equally important, how does the rest of the NFL see them?
if he can't help
But it won't be because he has a sore groin right now. If it drags and drags, and gets reaggravated and he can't play in the preseason, sure. But a normal, tight/sore groin isn't a big deal right now.
every opportunity up to and including the Jets game.
More likely the Pats would keep him on speed dial in case they have WR injuries.
Why would Cruz have accepted an arrangement that cut his pay and put more than half his remaining 2016 comp at the discretion of the team? Well, he wouldn't, in a vacuum; but remember, he also got a $2.4MM guarantee, so he got something from the negotiation too. Plus, he can trust the Giants not to sideline him for meaningful games just to save money. If he's able to contribute, he knows he will dress and get the extra ~$190K per game.
Really? Did you happen to watch the Houston, Washington or Atlanta games in 2014?
Your post makes about makes absolutely no sense
He had the one terrible game against Arizona in Week 2, with the three costly drops. But he bounced back with 100-yard-plus games against Houston and Washington. He got hurt two weeks later.
After the insane breakout year in 2011, Cruz was basically a 70-yard-per-game receiver, with normal week-to-week variation. That's not gaudy, but I don't think he ever fell off a cliff. He was just never going to reproduce that ridiculous run that began in Philly in 2011.
Why would Cruz have accepted an arrangement that cut his pay and put more than half his remaining 2016 comp at the discretion of the team? Well, he wouldn't, in a vacuum; but remember, he also got a $2.4MM guarantee, so he got something from the negotiation too. Plus, he can trust the Giants not to sideline him for meaningful games just to save money. If he's able to contribute, he knows he will dress and get the extra ~$190K per game.
For what it's worth, spotrac calls it a "per game" bonus not a roster bonus. And no indication of a split rate.
I can't prove it but I doubt there is any way Giants avoid the 187.5K per game obligation (from the get go) other than to flat cut him.
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I think this has as much to do with him regressing than just injuries. When playing, he wasn't doing much anyways. It's a cutthroat league.
Really? Did you happen to watch the Houston, Washington or Atlanta games in 2014?
Your post makes about makes absolutely no sense
Houston & Washington were 100 yard+ games. Against Atlanta Cruz was targeted 6 times, caught 3 for a total of 22 yards. Not a good outing at all.
It's not like he's keeping the WR camp battle from happening. These guys are getting reps.
We have 3 games to decide, anyone in a rush is dodo.
He's got a groin, so why would he be put on notice? Is it like, "Get back on the field even if your groin worsens in doing so?"
OBJ.
Shepard.
Davis.
Harris.
King.
Lewis.
Powe to PS.
The money is so large now there can be no loyalty to players that can no longer produce. They are here today and gone tomorrow.
I never thought Cruz could make it back but I will NEVER forget his 99 yard TD that ignited our Super Bowl run.
Thanks Victor!
Not saying that Cruz is being a puss... But if the groin lingers... He's likely going to the IR... again...
Or it doesn't make sense at all.
Haha, you beat me to it.
"Vic- we love you man, but we can't carry dead weight based on nonstalgia and loyalty. Maybe Tom Coughlin would do that but that isn't how thing are now. We want you out there catching those short passes from Eli and making those great cuts you used to make. Either do that starting like now, or we can't have you as part of the team anymore. If you are injured, we both will do what we have to do. If you are hurt, I suggest that you do whatever you can to get out there."
It's just a tight groin. I think everyone needs to relax.
Said (paraphrasing) he had a conversation with Victor Cruz and the contents of the conversation are private unless Victor decides to reveal them.
he didn't rule Cruz out of the Buffalo game.
PUP is off the table because he practiced. IR with designation is possible, but his situation doesn't really fit and the Giants have tended to keep that card in their pockets for an injury that fits the ~8-week timeframe.
He's been out for almost 2 years and no guarantee he can come back and you get only 1 player to use that on.
the Giants might need to save that for someone who is a surer bet to be able to return and contribute at some point.
I've been hearing "he's back" for so long...and then he doesn't play for one of a hundred new reasons. Personally, I can't take the teasing. Put him on the field in a game and see what he can still do. If he can't get on the field and stay on the field, then it's time to move on regardless of the financial aspects of the decision.
I love the guy, but I also have become impatient with Giants' injuries and believe in cutting our losses and moving on with healthy alternatives
He's been out for almost 2 years and no guarantee he can come back and you get only 1 player to use that on.
the Giants might need to save that for someone who is a surer bet to be able to return and contribute at some point.
I would elaborate by adding that, to the extent Cruz can contribute in 2016, it's as likely to happen in Week 4 as in Week 10. The player designated for return should be somebody with basically no chance of contributing in September and October, but, as pjcas18 says, a high likelihood of contributing later. That points toward injuries with a fairly long but specific recovery timeframe, like a broken fibula.
Man, he'll just be another to add onto the pile in recent years:
Nicks
Phillips
T2
Steve Smith
Manningham
David Wilson
Sheesh. Lot of talent right there that had to retire prematurely. Sad.
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Are there options to give him time to return later in the season?
PUP is off the table because he practiced. IR with designation is possible, but his situation doesn't really fit and the Giants have tended to keep that card in their pockets for an injury that fits the ~8-week timeframe.
IR with Designation is not an option, either. The premise of this discussion is whether Cruz makes the 53 man roster. In order to be placed on the IR with designation to return, he must make the 53 man roster first. The only options are Make the 53/IR/Cut.
Prove them wrong
Even if they drag it out through this season, we're not discussing Cruz next year.
Thank you! Its Anita Fucking Marks...Does anyone actually listen to what she says on a day-to-day basis? Does anyone really think that the Giant FO is sending a message through Anita Marks?
She may be the worst of the worst of local sports reporters in this area. Three quarters of the posters on this site know more about this team than she does. Have you ever seen her reporting? Yeah, let's ask Landon Collins what his favorite color is? ... She's an embarrassment to good woman reporters like Kim Jones. I'm actually surprised she knew who Roger Lewis. Wow - Victor Cruz might get cut if he doesn't recover from his groin injury! That's breaking news?
Like AP said, consider the source.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
The last month or so, she has harped on and on about Ryan Nassib being an NFL starting QB and how the Giants were lucky to have him. Again no analysis, just meaningless words. Now I don't know if Nassib is NFL starter level, and I'm not going to be swayed by one poor pre season game, but if I were to come out with that sort of statement then I'd make sure I could back it up. She doesn't. Probably cos she can't.
Now, we're onto Cruz. And again, no analysis on why the Giants would select Roger Lewis in the 53 man roster. Just cause apparently.
Summary: She's full of shit, how she has a gig on the otherwise very good BBKO I have no idea. I'm relatively new to NFL so I listen to a lot of podcasts trying to learn as much as possible. When Anita is on BBKO, I delete the podcast. It's pointless listening to it.
Last year was more understandable with the calf as a compensation injury. But a groin injury? C'mon. Does this guy stretch?
If that occurs, which is not out of the realm of possibilities then all bets are off.
Last year was more understandable with the calf as a compensation injury. But a groin injury? C'mon. Does this guy stretch?
Groin injuries are very common in all major sports...I venture to say most, if not all of those affected, stretched that and other areas. That's what they do
The Giants brass would do cartwheels if Cruz brought his 2013-2014 talents to this team. Everyone knows 2011 was a comet. It's gone never to return. But Cruz was a solid WR early on 2014. He had some nice plays (home against Houston) early on that year.
However, I think another year of waiting for him to come back will be a bad idea.
She looks like an aging pornstar who will do any kind of scene just to stay in the industry.
By all accounts no one has seen him flash his speed and explosion in practice. We know OBJ and Shepard are shoo ins to make it. Geremy Davis has been making the most out of his opportunities, and we know Dwayne Harris can fill in a pinch if we need him. Those last few guys on the roster are going to have to contribute to special teams, but they've given the coaches more to work with than Cruz running 3/4 speed from an evaluation standpoint.
She does not show enough cleavage to be taken seriously on BBI
Banks has been talking for years about "scholarship players", guys that were drafted or signed and stuck around through injury and lack of production. I'm not sure he has Cruz in mind when he talks of these scholarship players, but then again, maybe he does. Banks played for a guy who was notorious for cutting a big name in camp. It's a tough tough business.
I think the media may be "over-reading" things here a bit but not by much. I think the media and observers are looking at Victor Cruz's "body of work" since his injuries in 2013 to current. He simply hasn't been super productive.
I would not be shocked to see a youth movement this year:
TE Lacosse for TE Donnell?
LB Bars for LB Herzlich?
CB Deayon for CB Wade?
DT Millhouse for DT Nix or Hughes (big body vets?)?
I think Lacosse and Mallek could make it to the PS, but TE J. Adams would not.
I think DT Millhouse could make it to the PS, but I would not risk it given his play to date. I just wouldn't want him starting or taking major time as he is still raw and small.
So really, the total is
2 full seasons
2 completely missed seasons
1 year with 2/3s of the year missed.
So that's more than 1/2 his career over 5 seasons spent injured. And that's "play a game, miss a game, play a game, miss a game." That's season ending injuries in for 3 of the 5 years.
It's very, very fair to be concerned at this point.
So really, the total is
2 full seasons
2 completely missed seasons
1 year with 2/3s of the year missed.
So that's more than 1/2 his career over 5 seasons spent injured. And that's "play a game, miss a game, play a game, miss a game." That's season ending injuries in for 3 of the 5 years.
It's very, very fair to be concerned at this point.
Cruz, JT Thomas, Larry Donnell, T. Wade, C. Taylor are all on the bubble.
I would not be shocked to see a youth movement this year:
TE Lacosse for TE Donnell?
The guy was a key component to a SUPER BOWL, yes I know it was half a decade ago but give him his time.....the Giants guaranteed his $2.4 this season so I doubt they cut him, even if he cant perform. They may ask him to retire or offer him a special assistant type of role but i doubt they cut bait.
Its upsetting to see so many people so eager to move on from a guy who was as explosive and impact-full over a short period of time as any...yea i know sheppard looks good and lewis is performing well but do you remember sinorice moss or corey washington. both played real well in the pre-season and were worthless in the regular season......( i doubt sheppard performs poorly but you know what i mean here)
If we get 30 receptions and 400 yards out of cruz this year, im pretty happy with that..he doesnt need to be big play victor anymore, he just needs to catch a few balls to open up room for beckham, sheppard, tye, vereen, jennings, or donnell( hope he doesnt make the final roster)...
lets give him a shot to be the 4th or 5th wideout before we write him off....will he be 1,500 yard, huge play cruz again, unfortunately not. but he may have somehting left and if he does lets use it. after all ill take 60-75 victor cruz over a lot of receiver in the nfl and i know numerous teams would as well.
I would not be shocked to see a youth movement this year:
TE Lacosse for TE Donnell?
Personally, I'm hoping Cruz has a nice game #2 Saturday 4pm vs Bills and all this "cut Cruz" talk goes to the toilet. He better get heatlhy quick! We really do need him this year!
If he's close to making it, he'll make it at that money.
No one wants Donnell. I wish we didnt either.
but you have to keep cruz incase another team in the division gets him, its a nothing injury anyway its a strain due to the lack of real game time, due to the past serious injuries
there was plenty of talk when beckham missed the start of his rookie year with various muscle strains and hamstring problems people wanting him cut he already took a paycut he will make the 53 roster and when he gives them the 3 headed monster at WR they want this discussion will look very silly
If he's close to making it, he'll make it at that money.
Not the case. Note the comment in fine print above the OTC chart:
"According to Jordan Raanan, Cruz reduced his cap number by $5.5 million and can earn $3 million of that back in weekly roster bonuses."
As kicked around at beginning of thread, that $3 million is what the Giants save by cutting VC before week 1. If they put him on the roster, the $3M fritters away 1/16th (or 1/17th) at a clip. It is money out of pocket; it is money against 2016 cap; and it is money that can't be carried over to 2017.
that flushing sound - ( New Window )
Nicks
Phillips
T2
Steve Smith
Manningham
David Wilson
Sheesh. Lot of talent right there that had to retire prematurely. Sad.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
except for Wilson ..I think all these players were victims of our terrible S & C program
Obviously the NFL is a brutal sport but look at this year so far compared to last year .. it is night and day in terms of injuries to our team.
I am amazed that Giants went on so long with their S & C program , when it was obvious to just about everyone how bad it was.
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
Quote:
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
Quote:
Quote:
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
This isn't true even at all:
Nicks - compartment syndrome has caused irreversable nerve damage that left him without feeling in his lower leg, causing a dramatric drop in speed and ability to cut
Phillips - Knee injury that required microfracture surgery, still one of the lowest success rates for procedures
T2 - Don't believe he had injuries other than his torn ACL and then to his surgically repaired ACL.
Steve Smith - Had one devastating injury he never recovered from and never saw the field as a Giant again. Was signed by the Eagles and totaled 11 catches
Manningham - main injury cams AFTER he left the Giants. Strange example here
David Wilson - Had one major injury - the neck.
Actually, if you look at that list, they are all really shitty examples of players who had nagging injuries. Most of them either were impacted severely by the main injury or never even came back from that injury.
reading this list makes me wince. I think RB Wilson would be dynamic in this offense.
Again?? based on what. He didn't understand the playbook, couldn't be relied on to be where he belonged. Couldn't block. Fumbler. HE would have been a dynamic KO returner and 5-7 touch situational player
Not really an indictment. She does some TV work for the team and has a radio show on the weekends, but she's not an information source. She's just a fan. Her area of any expertise is fantasy sports.
Quote:
But I hadn't even heard of Anita Marks until this thread. Podcasts?
Not really an indictment. She does some TV work for the team and has a radio show on the weekends, but she's not an information source. She's just a fan. Her area of any expertise is fantasy sports.
Her "expertise" is having those bolt ons.
Diehl and O'Hara also made mention on the radio during the weather delay, which suggests there's at least some smoke out there.
Diehl and O'Hara also made mention on the radio during the weather delay, which suggests there's at least some smoke out there.
Dottino called him a 50/50 shot on the Francesa show yesterday, and he didn't sound too confident in that prediction.
If he somehow can play versus Buffalo, don't be surprised to see him start with Eli and have one of the first plays called in his direction...as I imagine the coaches will give him every last chance to prove himself.
You know everybody wants him to make it, but the odds are seemingly getting worse. Even if he makes the final 53...tough to see any material contributions.
I think all you need to know about Dottino is how he's moved away from being a reporter, and now works in play by play and TV analyst.
Quote:
Man, he'll just be another to add onto the pile in recent years:
Nicks
Phillips
T2
Steve Smith
Manningham
David Wilson
Sheesh. Lot of talent right there that had to retire prematurely. Sad.
if you look at all these players (except Wilson) they all started to have nagging injuries that never quite healed and lead to OTHER injuries
except for Wilson ..I think all these players were victims of our terrible S & C program
Obviously the NFL is a brutal sport but look at this year so far compared to last year .. it is night and day in terms of injuries to our team.
I am amazed that Giants went on so long with their S & C program , when it was obvious to just about everyone how bad it was.
So the Giants S&C program can be attributed to Steve Smith's knee exploding and T2's knee exploding and the wheels falling off Nicks and Mario? Really?
And after one-two months of practice it's safe to proclaim that the new and improved S&C program is going to keep all our beloved Giants players healthy and safe? No more injuries? The big bad Coughlin regime won't be ruining any more NYG seasons...is that it?
Cmon man.
Quote:
She looks like an aging pornstar who will do any kind of scene just to stay in the industry.
She's just not into you....IYKWIMAIKYD
My biggest beef is with that above list of players. Really, not a single one of them had nagging injuries. If you wanted to choose guys like that, go with Schwartz, Baas, Beason, Cooper, etc.
The poster above picked guys who had a significant or catastrophic injury and tried to blame it on the trainers as being ones that led to "nagging injuries". I don't even know anyone on that list who had nagging injuries.
She has that awesome WFAN time slot at midnight Sunday night.
My biggest beef is with that above list of players. Really, not a single one of them had nagging injuries. If you wanted to choose guys like that, go with Schwartz, Baas, Beason, Cooper, etc.
The poster above picked guys who had a significant or catastrophic injury and tried to blame it on the trainers as being ones that led to "nagging injuries". I don't even know anyone on that list who had nagging injuries.
Agreed. What's the saying? Correlation does not imply causation? I pray the Giants go through this season injury free and I can sit here and bitch and moan come January that Correlation does not imply causation...please let that happen...
The truth is he really has not participated in even a full contact practice since his injury.
How could there be anything but doubt at this point. You are healthy or not. He has 2-3 weeks to show he can even get on the field. if not, the Giants have to move on. It is the nature of the game
Jimmy Graham was cleared to return to practice this week, that I know.
There's a ten-year sample from 94-04 cited in this article here. https://dynastyleaguefootball.com/2013/06/01/the-dynasty-doctor-6/
The most interesting article on this subject reviewed NFL players with ruptured patellar tendons from 1994 to 20041. A total of 24 NFL players sustained a ruptured patellar tendon in that interval of time. Of those players, 19 of 24 returned to play (79%). Those who returned had been taken earlier in the NFL Draft, and that is not surprising given players drafted in later rounds are not likely to get as many opportunities to return from injury. Those players who did return played an average number of 45 games (range 1 to 145 games), and the total number of games played pre and post-injury exceeded the career average for NFL players (76 games vs 57 games), suggesting these players had a longer NFL career despite ruptured patellar tendons. All but two players missed the remainder of the season, but all were able to return the following year. The two players who returned the same season either had a partial rupture or sustained the injury in the off-season and had more time to recover. Only one player had a re-rupture of his patellar tendon (4%), and he was able to play another 60 games after his second surgery.
Still, it's a hard pass on anything she writes and I've never heard anything of substance from her on the radio. She's pretty much useless.
Diehl and O'Hara also made mention on the radio during the weather delay, which suggests there's at least some smoke out there.
Bingo
My hope is he practices no later than Thursday and plays on Saturday FULL SPEED. By 4:30pm, we may know if Cruz is for real or just a body trying to hang on for one more paycheck.
If he is now a body without the required separation burst, well, cutting him and saving money makes sense.