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Offensive Line - and TEs -

B in ALB : 8/20/2016 10:54 pm
I was debating whether to weigh in on this tonight but here goes. And granted - I did not watch the second half of today's game - I recorded it - so any spoilers left out are appreciated. Having played against and with some household names and coached both sides of the line I'd like to add some brief points if you'll bear with me.

It was not a good first half performance from the OL. That's easy to see. But I'm going to maintain some semblance of optimism for now (very little, holy shit) - especially considering it's the 2nd preseason game and honestly, they haven't really practiced as a cohesive unit...at all yet.

Line play - especially on the OL - is about the unit. It's not as easy as saying - "Flowers sucks!" "Hart got steamrolled!" "Richburg is garbage!" The whole is definitely, without question, no doubt about it greater than the sum of its parts - and the forest is greater than just its trees. It's about synergy and trust. Tonight we saw a unit that was at worst shape than the Giants' OL ending the 2015 season. And I can be somewhat optimistic because we will not see this unit comprised of its parts like today's game to start Game 1 in 2016. (pretty fucked up was to view it right? ugggh)

Flowers - the first thing I noticed was how stiff in the hips he was and how he seems to lack flexibility right from his first step. I was surprised to see this. He was reaching rather than establishing his base and punching through the defender. His bucket and kick step was short, forced, slow off the snap and oddly tentative. His kick step was so slow and short that the defender had no choice but to skinny either shoulder, rip low and surge. There was absolutely no reason to engage with Flowers tonight. He was a statue. And when his feet worked a bit, he failed with his hands and arms. Holding. He played really high in the torso and seemed to lunge at times - almost as if his legs, butt and hips were in complete disarray with his upper body. He seemed unsure in both stance and start. A really poor performance today. However, he was on a fast track, he's had limited snaps so far in a live environment, he played with a new LG and two TEs who had no fucking clue what they were doing. I didn't see a two-back set shaded strong where they allowed a back to chip or fit an oncoming rusher (are the Giants really going to do this without a FB at this point? - I'd be surprised if that doesn't change and something else is installed). Flowers was on an island in the truest sense of the term and he struggled. A good blocking TE (or one who knows what the fuck he's doing - we'll get to that in a bit) and his LG will help a ton.

Hart - he looked overmatched on the strong side and really had issues with his footwork and protection calls. Again, a lack of familiarity with his linemates, against a well-coached and hungry DLine foaming at the mouth to replace some knuckleheads - he was bad. The jury is definitely still out and I'll hold judgement until he proves otherwise at RG.

The right side of the line is a huge concern of mine. Cohesion, reps as a unit and honestly - talent and ability - along with the complete lack of any help from a blocking TE - and it's hard to see how this could possibly be a passable unit over a 16 game season. One of the posters - EricJ perhaps - mentioned his concerns about the right side of the line and how they should have signed three new players to augment a crew that struggled mightily over the last two seasons. I don't think he's wrong, folks.

Look - I wish I could come on here and say - Flowers lacked his linemate Pugh - as did Richburg and that's why they struggled. The weak side is a work in progress and it's only the second preseason game. Stay tuned.

BUT - when I see players like Will Tye not checking his protection and chopping his route - Nassib failing to call out a blitz and adjust the protection and the ensuing sack fumble...something ain't right. What is going on? How are they getting better in practice?

Donnell can't block a lick. Teams know this. They'll zone it, blitz, stunt, delay and roll all day long

This stuff from the TEs is easy. You learn this in JV and HS football. You don't just put your head in the dirt and run a stop route without checking your protection.

You don't lunge like a pop warner kid and hope you make contact in a space of 18 inches. Donnell looked like he's never played football before - he thought he was blocking a Jpad or a sled. Did he forget the count? Was he hung over? What the fuck was he doing out there? If I graded him tonight out I'd discuss cutting him. Awful.

So yes - I'm disappointed in tonight's performance and I'm starting to get concerned that the OL wasn't addressed with more vehemence and attention in the offseason - especially with the money available.

All that said, we have to rely on the experts in the room. The player personnel folks constructing the team. The scouts watching the film. The coaches evaluating the players. And the players performing.

It's early fellow Giants fans. Too early to call it a day. But it's getting fucking close. I hope that this was the wakeup call needed to right this ship. Just remember - it's only preseason.

Sorry for the length. It's all I can come up with at this late hour. I'll watch the game again and focus on some keys. Thanks for reading if you got all the way through.
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Newhouse, Jerry, Hart and Donnell stink...  
Torrag : 8/21/2016 1:08 am : link
...the right side of the line will keep this offense from capitalizing on the explosiveness of our skill players and failure to reach it's dominating potential.

It was obvious after last season and they didn't address it in the offseason. There are reasons for this. the primary one being the roster had so many problem areas that one draft and potent free agent class couldn't fill them all.

I said all along this was a two year rebuild to contention. At best this team is a playoff pretender to a title and that would be progress.

I'll sit back and enjoy the season. Live and die with every down as most of us do. In the end it's all about building toward 2017.
Donnell is not a football player...he plays scared.  
SHO'NUFF : 8/21/2016 2:58 am : link
The biggest apology I owe is to Pat Flaherty. He couldn't do anything with this shit line, and neither can Solari, apparently. To think, I've been blaming Flaherty this whole time.
Great post B thanks.  
BlueLou : 8/21/2016 6:53 am : link
Re Flowers from stuff I have seen of him blocking in the open field I think he has the requisite athleticism to play LT, but for now he's simply a train wreck vis a vis technique - which really shouldn't surprise anyone given his scouting reports coming out. What I fear is that he's still a 2+ year project to learn how to use his physical gifts. One question I have is do you think he might be overly "weight room strong" and bulky and if he shout be given a training program that addresses that?

My only other comment isn't for you so much as for anyone who might have knowledge about Pugh's shoulder... is the problem the same shoulder he had surgery on before his senior season at Syracuse? I fear bad news now and going forward if this current problem is a resurgence of his prior one...
Thanks, B  
CT Charlie : 8/21/2016 7:42 am : link
I'd read your report after every game, as I know so little about line play. I agree that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I'd love to hear you analyze what creates good run blocking, collectively, because last year we were decent in pass protection but lousy in run blocking.
We don't need a star TE..  
Sarcastic Sam : 8/21/2016 7:48 am : link
We won Superbowls with Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard. I have confidence that our staff can get serviceable TE play from UDFAs.

Oh, except our TE coach back then is now working for the Cowboys.

Well... that's not ideal.
One thing that boggled my mind last year.....  
Doomster : 8/21/2016 8:18 am : link
Why didn't our TE's chip block on the right side to help Newhouse, before going out for a pass?

I finally figured it out.....they did chip block a lot last season....they just whiffed a lot...
Thanks B...one of the bests posts I've ever seen on BBI  
Blue21 : 8/21/2016 8:40 am : link
Definitely written by someone who knows the game and had played the game at a high level yet explained for everyone of us to understand regardless of experience. Please keep doing these. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the second half which got even worse
Flower should be a great RT  
Csonka : 8/21/2016 8:49 am : link
The reason we have him at LT is because we're paying him like one.
Thanks, B  
Moondawg : 8/21/2016 9:09 am : link
.
Great post B  
SomeFan : 8/21/2016 9:13 am : link
but damn Flowers' performance is a concern
Thanks for this B  
JCin332 : 8/21/2016 9:32 am : link
and please keep them coming...
Great post B  
RobCarpenter : 8/21/2016 9:44 am : link
I'm a fan, I can't pretend to understand techique. Very helpful discussion of the O line.

But what was glaring to anyone was the TE play, I can't believe how awful
they were. The Giants aren't going to find a great OT off the waiver wire but they sure as hell can find a competent blocking TE.
Flowers  
XBRONX : 8/21/2016 9:45 am : link
had Art Kehoe at UM for three years. One year in the pros and this season under Solari. What you see now, is it.
RE: Flower should be a great RT  
section125 : 8/21/2016 9:46 am : link
In comment 13079868 Csonka said:
Quote:
The reason we have him at LT is because we're paying him like one.


He's on a rookie contract that has more to do with draft slot, not RT or LT..
So you are quite wrong.
B  
Joey in VA : 8/21/2016 9:58 am : link
The entire OL, every single one who played a snap was moving in quicksand. I have never seen so many people get out quicked and out hit for such an extended period of time. Feet were the culprit, I saw what you did, lunging, grabbing, reaching, losing the power base and ending up in precarious positions.

Blocking comes down to keeping your feet under your shoulders and seeing what you're hitting. You create the biggest path to your QB or to the RB that you can and it's done by staying low and wide and striking the DL first. We seem, as a team, an entire unit to be sitting back and waiting to see what the DL does instead of moving as a unit and attacking. I've never seen a DE pass rush to stop the run but I saw it last night around Newhouse and Flowers and it was beyond frustrating. I saw no aggression, no anger, no composure and a lot of hang dog looks out there. SOMETHING wasn't right, whether it was the timing of recovery days, who ate what when or something but unless every OL on this team is total crap something was off.
RE: Good stuff B...  
Coach Mason : 8/21/2016 9:59 am : link
In comment 13079725 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
wondering what effect Solari's coaching might be having here on everyone. Are they being taught new/different techniques? Are the protection schemes more difficult, making it a cognitive challenge and players look stiff/slow as a result?

Remember, often when you build something up you must first break the old/bad habits. Perhaps what we're seeing here is the result of Solari pushing for something new. Regular growing pains that will ultimately result in an improved OL?

I'm hoping that it's the combination of instability (no Pugh, Hart's first attempt at LG) and new information/technique that are producing these forgettable results.


Lets hope this is the case here.
RE: RE: Good stuff B...  
Watson : 8/21/2016 10:17 am : link
In comment 13079929 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 13079725 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


wondering what effect Solari's coaching might be having here on everyone. Are they being taught new/different techniques? Are the protection schemes more difficult, making it a cognitive challenge and players look stiff/slow as a result?

Remember, often when you build something up you must first break the old/bad habits. Perhaps what we're seeing here is the result of Solari pushing for something new. Regular growing pains that will ultimately result in an improved OL?

I'm hoping that it's the combination of instability (no Pugh, Hart's first attempt at LG) and new information/technique that are producing these forgettable results.



Lets hope this is the case here.


Yes, sure hope Dan is right. I don't think you can expect a unit to start off exactly where they left off, but the 1st two season games look worse than where they started last year. Maybe it's just my memory.



Thanks B in ALB for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Coach  
XBRONX : 8/21/2016 10:20 am : link
on another post someone commented that Flowers keeps his hands too wide. This is only the fifth straight year of him doing that.(including UM under Kehoe)
Well, I think I disagree with most of the compliments here.  
baadbill : 8/21/2016 10:26 am : link
I don't think it was a great post B. I, like many fans, have been worried about the OL not being addressed. And then yesterday happens. The LAST thing I needed was someone who obviously knows what he's talking about, validating all of my worries! Thanks for nothing B.
good stuff B  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/21/2016 10:39 am : link
!!!
Larry Donnell - do the math  
Bob in Newburgh : 8/21/2016 10:44 am : link
Been with this organization a relatively long time. Probably what you see now as a blocker is what you are going to get.

Personally, I feel we should be shopping him for whatever we can get, maybe a conditional 7 possibly escalating to a 5. TEs are a somewhat rare species.

Stingily is an upper echelon athlete with the requisite size and strength to start as an NFL LT. I assume he has even more significant issues than players like Newhouse.
Yes - great point Joey  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 11:43 am : link
they were definitely letting the play dictate their effectiveness. There was no aggression, no confidence and no sureness to their performance. The tentative level that they were playing was disturbing.
Great writeup, B  
Rich in L.A. : 8/21/2016 12:12 pm : link
By the way, there are many of us who have been clamoring for OL help for years, not just this past off-season. We got caught behind the curve on that when we counted on ailing vets like Snee and Diehl at the end of their careers instead of having some foresight and fortifying those spots for the future. We drafted a rotational DT in Bromley a couple years ago instead of wrecking-ball guards like Trai Turner. These decisions have come home to roost and we're a bit screwed at the moment.

The other scary thing to think about is we may very well have lost out on signing a veteran LT like Clady earlier this year because we were confident Flowers was the LT of the future. But if he's actually the RT of the future, then we're set back yet again.

In short, this has been a frustrating area of concern for some time now.
We brought no one in to add to a O-line  
est1986 : 8/21/2016 12:17 pm : link
Unit that was mediocre at best and now three weeks before week 1 you are just now noticing we didn't properly adress the O-Line? Your a fucking genius B in ALB, a cry baby who can't take a joke but a genius. Thanks.
See?  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 12:39 pm : link
This is exactly why the football people on this board have stopped posting much over the years.

Shit stains like est1986 who pollute the board.
We're  
Jon in NYC : 8/21/2016 12:42 pm : link
treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....
RE: We're  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....


Haha. Right?
RE: We're  
Jon in NYC : 8/21/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....


And before you get your panties in a twist, that was a joke.

As I mentioned in another thread, not sure why we cut bait with Pope out of nowhere. Our TE blocking has gone to shit since then. Shockey, Boss, Marty B, all strong blockers.
RE: RE: We're  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13080108 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....



And before you get your panties in a twist, that was a joke.

As I mentioned in another thread, not sure why we cut bait with Pope out of nowhere. Our TE blocking has gone to shit since then. Shockey, Boss, Marty B, all strong blockers.


I know bud.

That film session last night must've been a fuckin hoot. That may have been the worst I've ever seen from a TE group.

RE: RE: RE: We're  
Jon in NYC : 8/21/2016 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13080109 B in ALB said:
Quote:
In comment 13080108 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....



And before you get your panties in a twist, that was a joke.

As I mentioned in another thread, not sure why we cut bait with Pope out of nowhere. Our TE blocking has gone to shit since then. Shockey, Boss, Marty B, all strong blockers.



I know bud.

That film session last night must've been a fuckin hoot. That may have been the worst I've ever seen from a TE group.


Any thoughts on Scolari so far?
Solari has been coaching for 40 years  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 12:59 pm : link
I mean at this point it's a talent and learning curve and health game for the players.

Id be more concerned with Gilbride.
Yea my thoughts are  
NikkiMac : 8/21/2016 1:05 pm : link
Maybe it's time to cut the fuckin music in practice concentrate and whenever this screwed up CBA allows pads on don't come out in shells oh and this week I would cut JPP send a message he's playing paddy cake all day.

Then I would cut Andre Williams and Larry Donnel Marshall Newhouse Cruz and a couple of loser defensive backs ...

Why wait for cutdown commit to some of the others and move on and Macadoo take off the sunglasses will ya !
B, excellent job  
pganut : 8/21/2016 1:49 pm : link
Thanks for the insight.

My fear is that we will wind up picking up an/possible multiple OLs from other teams' cutdowns - which is what we should do - because this also extends the conundrum. If the cohesiveness is what's lacking, it surely will extend into (at least) a few weeks into the season with new pieces learning Solari/Mac's system. I don't think this team can afford to stumble out of the gate. Sad, because this could/should have been addressed long ago, but that's just preaching to the choir.
Great post, B.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:50 pm : link
But according to someone, you're just a 'panty-waist!!!111"
RE: Thanks B.  
njm : 8/21/2016 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13079750 section125 said:
Quote:
Guys might be right about LaCosse being the best TE.


Lacosse's blocking yesterday can be described in a single word: "Ole'" He's definitely up for the Jonas Seawright Award this year. The only decent block I saw out of a TE yesterday was the block by Adams playing H-Back that Banks pointed out.

The OL had cohesion issues due to Pugh's absence and has little depth. The thought of in season injuries is very concerning.
B in ALB  
est1986 : 8/21/2016 6:47 pm : link
You mad bro? I don't know why that picture of Sil and Adriana really did it to you but your a cry baby. You can't take a joke.
But keep bashing me if you want..  
est1986 : 8/21/2016 6:49 pm : link
Or we could leave it alone if you jut stop crying
RE: RE: We're  
est1986 : 8/21/2016 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13080108 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....



And before you get your panties in a twist, that was a joke.

As I mentioned in another thread, not sure why we cut bait with Pope out of nowhere. Our TE blocking has gone to shit since then. Shockey, Boss, Marty B, all strong blockers.


As long as I'm not the only one that knows B in ALB wears panties and they tend to get easily twisted lol
resign Bear Pascoe  
Paulie Walnuts : 8/21/2016 7:22 pm : link
as a blocker when NEW England cuts him
RE: RE: RE: We're  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 7:31 pm : link
In comment 13080536 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080108 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 13080104 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


treating B in ALB like a fucking O-Line connoisseur at this point?

How fall we've fallen....



And before you get your panties in a twist, that was a joke.

As I mentioned in another thread, not sure why we cut bait with Pope out of nowhere. Our TE blocking has gone to shit since then. Shockey, Boss, Marty B, all strong blockers.



As long as I'm not the only one that knows B in ALB wears panties and they tend to get easily twisted lol


Haha. Only on my head est.
Nate Chandler - LT  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 7:37 pm : link
is available but recovering from injury. I'd look into that.
Austin Wentworth - RT  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 7:39 pm : link
but is he still injured?
Tyler Polumbus - LT  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 7:41 pm : link
I wonder if he's injured?

There are a bunch to look into.
est  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 7:45 pm : link
I'll be honest with you here. I grew up in a home filled with violence. I didnt take your joke well and I didn't appreciate it.
Honestly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2016 7:47 pm : link
this is the type of post I want to shove in people's faces when they claim that everyone is a pollyanna or people are loathe to criticize the players or coaches.

If every negative post was written with thought and insight, ther'd be a heck of a lot less complaining because there is a lot of meat in the OP to discuss instead of trying to dissect - McAdoo sucks!

Even radar would have a hard time taking contrarian stands on threads like this.

Bang up job and great insight!
RE: RE: Thanks B.  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 7:58 pm : link
In comment 13080222 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13079750 section125 said:


Quote:


Guys might be right about LaCosse being the best TE.




Lacosse's blocking yesterday can be described in a single word: "Ole'" He's definitely up for the Jonas Seawright Award this year. The only decent block I saw out of a TE yesterday was the block by Adams playing H-Back that Banks pointed out.

The OL had cohesion issues due to Pugh's absence and has little depth. The thought of in season injuries is very concerning.
It iis funny but TE Lacosse has done well in camp but only "so so" in the pre-season games. He needs to shine this week in all areas else it is the PS again.
Donnell isn't just a complete failure as a blocker.  
Mr. Bungle : 8/21/2016 8:30 pm : link
He inexplicably does forward rolls into tacklers in the open field, which is so fundamentally unsound, it boggles the mind that he ever made it to the pros with such a lack of basic running instincts.

And not only that, he's pulled up in routes and he's run many weak routes, causing interceptions and near-interceptions. So, he's not a superb (one-dimensional) receiving option, either.

That 3-TD first half in D.C. was nice and all. But outside of that unusual game, there are probably 40-50 tight ends in the NFL who offer more than Donnell does. He absolutely should not be the Giants' starting tight end. I'm not convinced he even deserves a roster spot.
I had to assume that  
SwirlingEddie : 8/21/2016 8:54 pm : link
the team was/is trying something new, scheme-wise and/or technique-wise. It was the only way I could process the blocking performance. Not only was it obviously bad, but players seemed to regress from last year.
Last year  
skifaster : 8/22/2016 9:57 am : link
I think one of the issues with the defense last year was the amount of time they had to play because the offense couldn't run the ball and control the clock.

Maybe this coming off season we can improve the offensive line so that we can keep the defense off the field.
Here's a telling still from the Buffalo game film  
Bluenatic : 8/22/2016 10:03 am : link
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