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Re-watching game -- a few notes

g-baby : 8/21/2016 10:02 am
Just re-watched until the 1st team came out:

- We'd be feeling better about the giants o-line today if the TEs had managed to block anyone. The giants had a few outside runs blocked up nicely except for the TE assignment. On one, Tye failed to recognize a LB coming underneath and switch assignments with Newhouse. On a few others, Donnell just completely whiffed. Donnell looked like a rookie out there.

- I don't think Flowers is the disaster many here do. He just really needs to work on technique. His punch and pass set are never synced and he keeps his hands wayyy too wide. Parts of his technique look good, just never at the same time. He also looks tentative at times -- which i attribute to not trusting his technique and maybe not having Pugh next to him yesterday. He can still win matchups on strength and physicality alone -- if his technique can catch up, i do believe he can be a really good player for us.

- Damon Harrison is an animal. People hear a DT is good against the run and think he's just an immovable object. But he was really nimble and extremely active moving within the tackle box and making plays happen.

- If you noticed the LBs making some plays (incl. Collins when he was near the LOS) i attribute that a lot to the revamped DL. We have some guys who can run and hit, and as long as the DL can keep opposing OLs from getting cleanly to the next level, the LB unit should not be the deficiency it's been for years.

- Not putting too much stock into bad performance of offense as a whole yesterday. Seemed pretty conservative (had a good screen for Vereen set up on 3rd and long but Eli did a quick dump off to Tye) and at least the starters didn't turn it over. I'd say look to the 3rd preseason game for some indicator of where we're at, but the offense has looked dismal all 3 preseasons under Mcadoo but we know it's capable of performing.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/21/2016 10:07 am : link
Nice feedback!
Honestly  
Jay on the Island : 8/21/2016 10:12 am : link
I wouldn't be the least bit upset if Donnell doesn't make the team. This offense needs TE's who can block and Donnell is obviously never going to be a good blocker especially if he is still this bad after all this time. Go with Tye, LaCosse or FA, and Adams with Will Johnson at FB/Hback,TE and cut Whitlock.
Good post . For some more perspective  
Coach Mason : 8/21/2016 10:14 am : link
Eli in 4 preseason games was 20 for 38 for 159 yds, 0tds and 1 int for a 55.2 passer rating. We finished 8th in total offense last year, 6th in pts.

They are evaluating and trying new stuff and have a new OL coach reteaching mechanics and techniques. It should improve quite a bit from what we saw today.
This is going to be a very good defense  
BillT : 8/21/2016 10:21 am : link
And they are going to be good all around. Against the pass and run, sacks, turnovers. Along with the DL and CBs guys like Collins, Thompson, Casillas and Kennard are going to be solid contributors. It's going to be fun to watch.
I think  
Fish : 8/21/2016 10:24 am : link
Flowers missing Pugh next to him hurts hurts flowers play.
Good  
Jon in NYC : 8/21/2016 10:24 am : link
post. The TE blocking has been a serious issue. I'm not quite sure what they see in Donnell at this point.
Some of the more egregious issues...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/21/2016 10:26 am : link
- Right side of the O-line is pretty bad. Slow, bad technique and not very physical which is a tough combination.
- TE blocking is awful. Donnell really has to be considered a potential cut because he is simply an awful blocker.
- Williams continues to turn his back into the LOS or a would be tackler. This problem is not going away unless he does.
- LBs continue to be exposed in pass coverage to TEs and RBs
- Nassib is really struggling...almost train-wreck like.
Good post on the TE's issues  
PatersonPlank : 8/21/2016 10:28 am : link
I believe that most people don't understand the line play and schemes, and when they see a defensive player break free they just assign blame to the nearest OL player. Thanks for pointing out that its the TE responsibility also, and that switches are happening constantly.
The TEs' blocking was embarrassing.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 8/21/2016 10:28 am : link
So it didn't help that the Giants ran quite a few plays with BOTH of them on the field at the same time (on Eli's first and last drives). That's what I meant when I said in another thread that it looked like they were "trying some new things".
good post g-baby  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/21/2016 10:32 am : link
I think you are right -- Donnell was a key factor in a lot of the offensive woes last night --

Also there were some sloppy miscues/untimely penalties - a couple of times Donnell and Newhouse seemed to let a player slip between them -- I'm not sure that was a Newhouse problem. Flowers and Richburg may have been uncomfortable a little because Pugh wasn't in between them - and Hart hasn't played a lot of Left Guard.

it occurred to me that this was also the first preseason travel game -- so the vanilla game combined with a new routine, a hot evening, Pugh being out, and Eli's first outing may have had everyone a little "off-kilter"

Here's some other notes:

Tavares King is looking very "Cruz-like" on the field. He has a lot of good first steps/moves out there and great release off the line, and he seems to be making plays.

Owa is looking really strong in pre-season and that bodes well for the Giants.

Collins looks a lot beefier to me and still very energetic and very disruptive.

Darius Thompson might have had a sure interception up the center but DRC leaped in and took it away from him.

Thompson and Collins are looking like a good pair of Safeties.

OV - getting sacks -- and Harrison Snacking on the ball -- me likey


I wouldn't get too down about this game - it's way to early to panic --

the problem on the offensive line is a depth issue - it's not with the starters in my opinion

There is concern with the TE's blocking - but Williams might be the cure for that one

the other thing I want to note is that the other Williams is still not demonstrating good hands and that is a concern I picked up when I was with Marty at practice -- he did look good pounding into the line last night - so it's not all bad

Nassib also did not improve from the first to the second outing - that may be a cause for concern

Good  
AcidTest : 8/21/2016 10:46 am : link
post. I would move on from Donnell. He'd have to be a phenomenal talent in the passing game to compensate for his total ineffectiveness as a blocker. And he isn't. His lack of blocking is particularly problematic given the woeful nature of our OL.
Yes  
BleedBlue : 8/21/2016 10:47 am : link
I'm glad you mentioned the TEs, their inability to block made the oline look as if they weren't blocking for those outside runs but Donnell literally whiffed 2-3 times so they are a part of the shit show. That being said I still think we need some oline help but I'm not panicking as much as some
More excuses for Flowers  
HomerJones45 : 8/21/2016 10:51 am : link
guy came from a major college program, had a year as a starter and his technique is still bad? Last year, his excuse was a bad ankle, this year it's bad technique. Maybe the guy isn't cut out to be a LT.
I didn't watch the game...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/21/2016 10:52 am : link
but jeez, Donnell must have been terrible.

I wouldn't mind Adams getting a look.
homer  
BleedBlue : 8/21/2016 11:00 am : link
technique is teachable. the thing i like about flowers is his toughness, that you cannot teach. he played hurt and he handled playing LT in the NFL as a rookie pretty well all things considered. I think he is going to be a fine player for us once he cleans up his technique issues. also not having pugh clearly hurt yesterday but its no excuse. we have to be prepared to be without one of the starters as injuries happen. I expect a few additions as well as the subtractions along that OL
not having a blocking tight end really hurts this offensive line  
nygiants16 : 8/21/2016 11:05 am : link
bills did it yesterday they moved Hughes to whatever side the tight end was on and basically destroyed that matchup..

Donnell looked like garbage, the Giants really need to find a blocking tight end or hope Hart can be that 6th lineman that comes in and blocks..
Casillas truly stood out among the LBers  
TheMick7 : 8/21/2016 11:07 am : link
Was excellent in coverage & made a good number of tackles.
Donnell wasn't even getting a hand on some of the rushers.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 11:08 am : link
It was embarrassing. He looked like he was drunk.
RE: More excuses for Flowers  
Giantology : 8/21/2016 11:09 am : link
In comment 13080002 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
guy came from a major college program, had a year as a starter and his technique is still bad? Last year, his excuse was a bad ankle, this year it's bad technique. Maybe the guy isn't cut out to be a LT.


Yeah, Miami is really bursting with NFL talent these days. Just unbelievable that a kid with raw strength and talent would need to work on his technique to make it to the NFL after playing for such a prestigious football school. This literally never happens.
All I hear about is how tough Flowers is  
Bill in UT : 8/21/2016 11:11 am : link
Petrus and Hermann were tough also, but still sucked. Toughness is nice on top of ability, it's not a substitute for it
Somebody is going to cut...  
manh george : 8/21/2016 11:11 am : link
an OL who is too small for OL but has some speed and quickness. It looks as if we need one of those to shore up the TE position.
RE: Good  
TheMick7 : 8/21/2016 11:11 am : link
In comment 13079990 AcidTest said:
Quote:
post. I would move on from Donnell. He'd have to be a phenomenal talent in the passing game to compensate for his total ineffectiveness as a blocker. And he isn't. His lack of blocking is particularly problematic given the woeful nature of our OL.


Donnell's blocking may have been the worst I have ever seen from a pro TE. Couple that with the fear that every time he is tackled after a catch,we cringe hoping he won't fumble is a good reason to give Tye & the 3 kids extended work on Saturday! And if they do well, try to move him for a draft pick (Lots of teams looking for a TE) or at worst,cut him!
Good post G  
Dave on the UWS : 8/21/2016 11:15 am : link
With the way everyone was wining last night I expected to see nail breaks on every play. Not he case. The effort and energy was fine. Execution was very poor especially by the 3 Stooges on the right - Jerry, Newhouse and whoever the TE was. Whoever is the best blocking TE is have to start -period I watched Flowers and Hart. I thought Hart was OK he seemed like a tackle playing guard not enough power in the run game inside. Flowers balance and feet are strong points. For a man as strong as he is, he doesn't use his hands well at all. He's got a lot of bad habits that go back to his Miami days. He seems to be thinking about hand placement instead of just playing. He's not aggressive at all right now. My got says this will improve largely from going against OV in practice.

Oh and I think the defense is going to be a LOT better than people think
Technique may be teachable  
BestFeature : 8/21/2016 12:19 pm : link
But there's no guarantee he'll learn it either.
RE: not having a blocking tight end really hurts this offensive line  
phillygiant : 8/21/2016 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13080024 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
bills did it yesterday they moved Hughes to whatever side the tight end was on and basically destroyed that matchup..

Donnell looked like garbage, the Giants really need to find a blocking tight end or hope Hart can be that 6th lineman that comes in and blocks..


Ummm...Will Johnson
RE: Good post . For some more perspective  
RetroJint : 8/21/2016 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13079948 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
Eli in 4 preseason games was 20 for 38 for 159 yds, 0tds and 1 int for a 55.2 passer rating. We finished 8th in total offense last year, 6th in pts.

They are evaluating and trying new stuff and have a new OL coach reteaching mechanics and techniques. It should improve quite a bit from what we saw today.


Coach, you must know that mechanics and techniques are universal, right? You are coach, it seems from your handle. So am I. I've been a damn good one for years. What separates coaches is the ability to instill those techniques. Solari was hired in January. He has had plenty of time. It goes back to the coaching axiom that I'm sure you adhere to, Coach: you cannot make chicken salad from chicken shit. Corollary: a poor coach with excellent talent will get a better finished product than will an excellent coach with poor talent. Do you doubt that?

Perhaps the problem with Flowers is that he stinks? I'm hardly ready to render that verdict but the performance yesterday was putrid.

General comment about tight ends: most don't block anymore. Ertz, Witten and Reed are large wide receivers. The second tight end might be a blocker, true. However, the dink-pass, WCO offense has subverted just about everybody's running game save for the Vikings, who are still trying to get it done the old-fashioned way. You can include Dallas with them, to a degree, but for everything gained in the dink-pass game that you see, something is lost in the run game.

Did you see Twelve Gauge yesterday, stumbling through when he came in for the Bills? They looked as bad as the Giants did.
Thompson is taking on a LOT of responsibility very quickly.  
BlueLou : 8/21/2016 12:28 pm : link
Banks and/or Papa said at one point when the 2nd team D was largely in (but Thompson and Collins together logged many more snaps than most of the 1st team players) that Thompson as calling out the alignments and adjustments for the entire defensive 11.

I guess sometimes it really pays off to draft real seniors instead of junior early eligible guys.

Although Apple looks like he's a fast study as well.
Good initial post g-baby  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 12:36 pm : link
Overall, I'm happy we got out of the game with no major injuries. We are quite healthy overall this camp and that is great news.

I do want to see how we hold up to the Jets front 7.

These are the things I want to see this week:

-Good week of practice, no injuries.
-WR V. Cruz back and going full speed all week in practice. I still believe he is very "key" to this offense as a veteran #2/#3. If WR D. Harris forced into the #3 WR role we lose his special teams roles and I don't want that to happen. I like WR G. Davis and his upside but is he ready to be a #3? Is Lewis ready to be a #3 or #4? I'm holding out hope and many prayers that WR Cruz bounces back this week.
-TE's play well and freaking block who they are supposed to block and such. TE Tye is our best TE; R. Mallek may be the best blocker at TE. FB W. Johnson is a solid blocker and I think he'll practice and play.
-Starting OL must pass protect and run block vs a strong front 7. I think most of the problems are due to a combination of learning new techniques from Solari and well just being an overall average group. I do believe Pugh and Richburg are probowl capable.
-Can MLB Keenan Robinson stand out and showcase his speed so he is on the field more?
-Want to watch the secondary, these guys on paper are looking good and on the field they have played well. I thought little guy CB Deayon was pretty good yesterday.
-DT Millhouse - is he the #4 DT or a PS guy?
RE: RE: Good post . For some more perspective  
Coach Mason : 8/21/2016 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13080097 RetroJint said:
Quote:
In comment 13079948 Coach Mason said:


Quote:


Eli in 4 preseason games was 20 for 38 for 159 yds, 0tds and 1 int for a 55.2 passer rating. We finished 8th in total offense last year, 6th in pts.

They are evaluating and trying new stuff and have a new OL coach reteaching mechanics and techniques. It should improve quite a bit from what we saw today.



Coach, you must know that mechanics and techniques are universal, right? You are coach, it seems from your handle. So am I. I've been a damn good one for years. What separates coaches is the ability to instill those techniques. Solari was hired in January. He has had plenty of time. It goes back to the coaching axiom that I'm sure you adhere to, Coach: you cannot make chicken salad from chicken shit. Corollary: a poor coach with excellent talent will get a better finished product than will an excellent coach with poor talent. Do you doubt that?

Perhaps the problem with Flowers is that he stinks? I'm hardly ready to render that verdict but the performance yesterday was putrid.

General comment about tight ends: most don't block anymore. Ertz, Witten and Reed are large wide receivers. The second tight end might be a blocker, true. However, the dink-pass, WCO offense has subverted just about everybody's running game save for the Vikings, who are still trying to get it done the old-fashioned way. You can include Dallas with them, to a degree, but for everything gained in the dink-pass game that you see, something is lost in the run game.

Did you see Twelve Gauge yesterday, stumbling through when he came in for the Bills? They looked as bad as the Giants did.


Flowers does worry me a bit. And while I generally applaud Reese as a GM, I think they are really tying their wagon to Flowers as an LT b/c of where he was picked. He has tremendous talent but he might to be the type that simply struggles with picking up proper technique. Tyron Smith for perspective made huge strides in his second year. It's
still early but we've already heard a few reports with Flowers and his potential trouble picking up technique.

We shall see but this could be a big miss on Reese's part to not pick up another tackle.
Tunsil....  
grizz299 : 8/21/2016 12:52 pm : link
whaat were we thinking?
RE: Tunsil....  
phillygiant : 8/21/2016 12:53 pm : link
In comment 13080114 grizz299 said:
Quote:
whaat were we thinking?


You must have a severe stuttering problem
Did anyone notice JPP?  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 1:11 pm : link
Looked as fast as a cougar. Oddly, I saw JPP laying on the ground several plays. Seemed like the right tackle somehow got him down and out of the play.
RE: Tunsil....  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13080114 grizz299 said:
Quote:
whaat were we thinking?
Tunsil had two marks against him: a bad ankle issue (arthritis I believe) and a reputation for maybe not being the hardest worker.

I believe Eli Apple will be a top corner and an excellent pick. You need 3 corners to be great on defense and for this year we have 4 guys that are very good.
RE: Tunsil....  
TheMick7 : 8/21/2016 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13080114 grizz299 said:
Quote:
whaat were we thinking?


Didn't the Dolphins move him to OG because he couldn't handle OT?
He was moved to guard  
XBRONX : 8/21/2016 2:17 pm : link
because the Dolphins were set at tackle with Brandon Albert and Ja Wuan James.
RE: Good post . For some more perspective  
joe48 : 8/21/2016 3:25 pm : link
In comment 13079948 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
Eli in 4 preseason games was 20 for 38 for 159 yds, 0tds and 1 int for a 55.2 passer rating. We finished 8th in total offense last year, 6th in pts.

They are evaluating and trying new stuff and have a new OL coach reteaching mechanics and techniques. It should improve quite a bit from what we saw today.

That is a very misleading statistic. The team started slow each game trying to establish the run in the first half. Playing from behind in the 2nd half all we did was pass. If you take out a lot of the garbage yardage we were closer to 20th ranked. The offense was Eli to Odell.
RE: Did anyone notice JPP?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/21/2016 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13080133 mrvax said:
Quote:
Looked as fast as a cougar. Oddly, I saw JPP laying on the ground several plays. Seemed like the right tackle somehow got him down and out of the play.


I thought he provided little. Was able to be pushed to the outside or to the ground far too often.

just sayin'...
RE: More excuses for Flowers  
Milton : 8/21/2016 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13080002 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
guy came from a major college program, had a year as a starter and his technique is still bad? Last year, his excuse was a bad ankle, this year it's bad technique. Maybe the guy isn't cut out to be a LT.
I think it's his name that's been holding him back. Flowers is a girl's name. Once he changes his name to something more manly like Bricks or Trooper he is going to be an All-Pro. It's really quite surprising and a testament to his hard work that he's played as well as he has with a name like Flowers.
Great points made  
Bleedin Blue : 8/21/2016 7:48 pm : link
But let's not leave out Tye and his ineptitude at blocking! Both Donnell and Tye were BAD! I would like to see LaCosse and possibly Adams get their shot if the coaching staff believes they're ready to get some reps with the first team. Both LaCosse and Adams are supposed to be the better blockers and we already know that Donnell and Tue aren't going to improve over the next two games; they are what they are, let's see what we have in the other two. JMHO
Another excellent..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/21/2016 8:02 pm : link
perspective laying out the areas of concern with reasonable comments.

There have been a few threads today like this that aren't gushing with positives, but at least give an excellent analysis to feed discussion.

I don't think I've seen so many missed blocks by the TE's. I wasn't keying on them and still noticed a few straight-out whiffs, both by Donnell and Tye.
RE: Honestly  
Craigg619 : 8/21/2016 9:39 pm : link
In comment 13079944 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
I wouldn't be the least bit upset if Donnell doesn't make the team. This offense needs TE's who can block and Donnell is obviously never going to be a good blocker especially if he is still this bad after all this time. Go with Tye, LaCosse or FA, and Adams with Will Johnson at FB/Hback,TE and cut Whitlock.


Couldn't agree more.
I've seen enough of donnell also  
EJV79 : 8/21/2016 10:02 pm : link
shitty blocking, acrobatics causing fumbles, slow as all hell. Enough with this guy.
Do..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 8:18 am : link
you post anything other than a variation of this drivel?

Quote:
Tunsil....
grizz299 : 8/21/2016 12:52 pm : link : reply
whaat were we thinking?


You are the same moron that uses post after post to call tunsil the best player in this draft. I hate to break it to you, but fretting over who was picked is not making or breaking the team this year. If we need to rely on a rookie T (or G) to win, this league is in pretyy shitty shape.
Game  
stretch234 : 8/22/2016 8:19 am : link
The offense in preseason wants to try and run to the right. The strength of the OL is the other side. Come regular season, i think we will see runs to that side.

Everyone knows defense begins with the DL - pressure helps the back 7. Stopping the run puts offenses in tougher situations. If healthy, this defense can pose problems for offenses.

The real improvement on the D is up the middle. Snacks for Kuhn, Unga out, Collins in his natural position and a S next to him that is not over 30 and can run. Unga was painfully slow. Collins looked slow due to playing out of position. Dahl & Merriweather were the slowest S in the NFL. This has been corrected
RE: Good initial post g-baby  
Milton : 8/22/2016 9:12 am : link
In comment 13080099 SGMen said:
Quote:
Can MLB Keenan Robinson stand out and showcase his speed so he is on the field more?

Based on the official/unofficial depth chart and more importantly McAdoo's recent comments, it appears Robinson is no longer in the competition at MLB and is competing at WLB.
Quote:
Q: Are you any closer to deciding who your middle linebacker is going to be?

A: There is a good competition going on right now. B.J. (Goodson) made a good push yesterday, but Kelvin (Sheppard) and Jasper (Brinkley) are battling it out.
If Robinson and Casillas get through camp healthy, J.T. Thomas and his $3M salary could find himself on the outside looking in. Either that or he stays on PUP into the season.

Quote:
DT Millhouse - is he the #4 DT or a PS guy?
Unless another team gets hit with a bunch of injuries at DT, I think he will be safe on the practice squad. No need to spend a roster spot on him. They can activate him if/when needed.
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