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OL: What would you have done as GM?

drkenneth : 8/21/2016 12:49 pm
Lots of panties in a bunch this morning after preseason game #2.

So what should have been done? 2015 is over, what would have been your plan going into 2016 to improve the OL.

Please provide specifics.

Draft: Conklin & Stanley were gone. Tunsil had issues.

I have provided a link to 2015 Free agents.




Free agents - ( New Window )
Tunsil had issues?  
grizz299 : 8/21/2016 12:56 pm : link
Never an arrest, never a failed drug test.
The best player at a position of extreme need falls to us unexpectadly and all the room could think of is plqy it safe, remember!
So they froze.
Then they sign a significant free agent..at cornerback.
What I envisioned  
TyFromQueens : 8/21/2016 12:56 pm : link
Was Beatty coming back and Flowers playing RT for his first few years.

Once we cut Beatty I figured we would,sign a LT and move Flowers to RT for the next 1-2 seasons.

The OLine  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 12:57 pm : link
has had issues for far longer than the pre-season. But yeah, panty waists!!!!111
RE: Tunsil had issues?  
TyFromQueens : 8/21/2016 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13080117 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Never an arrest, never a failed drug test.
The best player at a position of extreme need falls to us unexpectadly and all the room could think of is plqy it safe, remember!
So they froze.
Then they sign a significant free agent..at cornerback.


Tunsil was too much of a liability. We made the right choice.

You simply do,not draft a player in the top 10 with any issues.

Yeah it was only weed but who has time to,take a chance?
Easy answer.  
Jerz44 : 8/21/2016 1:01 pm : link
Draft Tunsil, put Flowers at RT (which is his more natural position).
signed Osemele  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:02 pm : link
or maybe offer Eugene Monroe the LT spot.

Never mind the countless offensive linemen I wanted in the draft.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 1:02 pm : link
I'm fine with passing on Tunsil.. Apple was impressive last week and I think he'll prove to be a good pick.

We made a push for Okung and Monroe... Okung went to DEN and Monroe retred.

I would have liked to sign Mitchell Schwartz but he's a RT.. so for everyone who is terribly displeased with Flowers so far, that would not have alleviated the issue.
I would have recruited the best OL possible  
George from PA : 8/21/2016 1:04 pm : link
And not pre-determine their position....but allow the coaches to determine the best 5 OL and where they would play.

There were several LTs .....that wanted to stay as LT....I would have said to them....no promises but do your best....the coaches will determine it
panties in a bunch?  
chris r : 8/21/2016 1:08 pm : link
that's what you call concerns that the team still hasn't fixed the OL after about 5 straight years of bad OL performance (including 3 straight losing seasons) and with an aging franchise QB?


I can understand the Giants not signing any O-Linemen in free agency,  
Klaatu : 8/21/2016 1:11 pm : link
Other than the underwhelming crop of journeymen they brought in just prior to the draft. Pickings were slim, and the vast majority came with age or injury concerns. Mitchell Schwartz would have been a nice get, but he was gone pretty quickly. I don't know if we even made him an offer, or if he would've signed with us if we did.

I can also understand the Giants passing any O-Lineman in the draft. It's no secret that I was all about Jack Conklin, but the Titans had the juice to move ahead of us and draft him and, honestly, I don't know if the Giants would've taken him anyway. I would have drafted Apple over Tunsil or Decker, too, and for the next five rounds, I can't fault the Giants for any of their choices vs. the O-Linemen who were still on the board.

What really bugs me, though, and I've said it repeatedly, is how they could fail to bring in even one "Big Ugly" UDFAs. There were several available after the draft - I've posted the list before - that I believe would have, at the very least, improved the quality of our depth.
RE: I would have recruited the best OL possible  
MBavaro : 8/21/2016 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13080126 George from PA said:
Quote:
And not pre-determine their position....but allow the coaches to determine the best 5 OL and where they would play.

There were several LTs .....that wanted to stay as LT....I would have said to them....no promises but do your best....the coaches will determine it


Ok, so which one of those LTs would have signed here, for less than LT money, to compete for the LT spot?
RE: panties in a bunch?  
MBavaro : 8/21/2016 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13080130 chris r said:
Quote:
that's what you call concerns that the team still hasn't fixed the OL after about 5 straight years of bad OL performance (including 3 straight losing seasons) and with an aging franchise QB?



You're basing this all after drafting Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers (who is BEGINNING his 2ND year), and two preseason games??????? You can't fix all this shit overnight.
I wish they  
bluepepper : 8/21/2016 1:14 pm : link
had taken Tunsil but I believe ownership took him off the board. Same thing with Collins last year. GM doesn't have a totally free hand. The owners want to protect the image of the franchise.
RE: RE: Tunsil had issues?  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13080120 TyFromQueens said:
Quote:

Tunsil was too much of a liability. We made the right choice.

You simply do,not draft a player in the top 10 with any issues.

Yeah it was only weed but who has time to,take a chance?


Ty, stop putting commas in your posts immediately! They are placed almost as if random.
Thanks.
Yes, a lot of you have your  
MBavaro : 8/21/2016 1:15 pm : link
panties in a bunch. Jesus tap dancing Christ........
Overnight.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:16 pm : link
That's hilarious.
I would have tried to negotiate with Beatty instead of cutting him.  
j_rud : 8/21/2016 1:16 pm : link
As for free agents, I think Mitchell Schwartz would have been a great signing and I would have pursued him hard. He didn't exactly sign for cheap but it was well below the deals that Okung and Osemele signed. His cap number never goes over 6 and that's not until the back end of a 5 yr contract. With the Giants cap situation it wouldn't have prohibited them down the road. He's an ascending player and a prototypical RT, so the team could have stuck by their plan to develop Flowers as the LT of the future. 5 years/33 mill isn't a lot when it means you have your starting tackles for the rest of Eli's career.

The FA crop was pretty bare for RTs, but signing Schwartz and retaining Beatty would make the roster a lot deeper at a position of absolute weakness. Even just keeping Beatty would be an improvement. Who knows, maybe he fell off a cliff. I just have a hard time believing he's any worse than Newhouse.
You can't answer this in a vacuum  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:18 pm : link
If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.
RE: RE: panties in a bunch?  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:21 pm : link
In comment 13080137 MBavaro said:
Quote:
In comment 13080130 chris r said:


Quote:


that's what you call concerns that the team still hasn't fixed the OL after about 5 straight years of bad OL performance (including 3 straight losing seasons) and with an aging franchise QB?





You're basing this all after drafting Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers (who is BEGINNING his 2ND year), and two preseason games??????? You can't fix all this shit overnight.


How many year would you like? 10?

The last gasp from last good OL was the Super Bowl in 2011. Since then, they've added three starters. One of which is young yet struggling. Three starters since 2011? A comical right side and literally no backups besides Hart who can't win a starting position on a line with issues.

Com'on, it's hardly been overnight.
RE: signed Osemele  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13080124 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
or maybe offer Eugene Monroe the LT spot.

Never mind the countless offensive linemen I wanted in the draft.


Osemele got $60 million to play guard. Monroes retired.

Try again.
RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13080147 BillT said:
Quote:
If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.


Bill, the Jenkins contract was insane. He's a "decent" CB, no more. If necessary the Giants could have signed a solid cheaper CB nd saved the coin for for the horrific Oline. Maybe even a TE that could block.
RE: Overnight.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:25 pm : link
In comment 13080143 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
That's hilarious.


Thanks for the specfic insight Dave.
Bengals  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:26 pm : link
Appears they have a lot of players.

Maybe we keep an eye on them
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: panties in a bunch?  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13080148 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080137 MBavaro said:


Quote:



How many year would you like? 10?


Com'on, it's hardly been overnight.

Remember, they are also still catching up from losing two starters in Beatty and Schwartz. That was just last year. We'd all have liked to see more done but given what they got done elsewhere (like on D) is understandable.
You're very welcome.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:27 pm : link
It's what you deserve, obviously.

Not very hard to decipher, anyway. This has been far from 'overnight.' You're very welcome, nonetheless. This is all TC's fault! *holds in laughter*
RE: Easy answer.  
Mason : 8/21/2016 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13080123 Jerz44 said:
Quote:
Draft Tunsil, put Flowers at RT (which is his more natural position).


Tunsil isn't even starting let alone playing tackle. He is now a 2nd string guard on the Dolphins. And had a so so showing against an UDFA last week.
RE: RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:27 pm : link
In comment 13080153 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13080147 BillT said:


Quote:


If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.



Bill, the Jenkins contract was insane. He's a "decent" CB, no more. If necessary the Giants could have signed a solid cheaper CB nd saved the coin for for the horrific Oline. Maybe even a TE that could block.


What OL would you have signed with the extra "coin"?
RE: RE: Easy answer.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13080160 Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 13080123 Jerz44 said:


Quote:


Draft Tunsil, put Flowers at RT (which is his more natural position).



Tunsil isn't even starting let alone playing tackle. He is now a 2nd string guard on the Dolphins. And had a so so showing against an UDFA last week.


'so-so' is better than what we've seen from this OLine recently.
RE: RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13080153 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13080147 BillT said:


Quote:


If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.



Bill, the Jenkins contract was insane. He's a "decent" CB, no more. If necessary the Giants could have signed a solid cheaper CB nd saved the coin for for the horrific Oline. Maybe even a TE that could block.

Ok, that's fine. If you're not going to sign Jenkins then an OL and/or TE would have been something that he could have gotten done. That's just what I was saying. I'm 50/50 on that solution. It's ok but I think when we see how good this D is we'll be pretty happy with the choices he made.
RE: RE: RE: RE: panties in a bunch?  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13080158 BillT said:
Quote:
Remember, they are also still catching up from losing two starters in Beatty and Schwartz. That was just last year. We'd all have liked to see more done but given what they got done elsewhere (like on D) is understandable.


but even if they had those two starters today they still wouldn't have any backups. Now they have three starters with one struggling. They have drafted miserably.

Imagine if Flowers, who is struggling, goes down. Now the team has no offensive tackles. That's pathetic
RE: You're very welcome.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13080159 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
It's what you deserve, obviously.

Not very hard to decipher, anyway. This has been far from 'overnight.' You're very welcome, nonetheless. This is all TC's fault! *holds in laughter*


Do you ever actually contribute? You're like a yappy dog.

This thread is one of those BBI IQ tests.

The decent BBI posters usually contribute, and I enjoy the discussion. Those posters have actual insight, opinions, facts...

Then you have the folks like you and chris r. And the guy who thinks we should have spent $60mil on a G, and have our starting LT be someone who was cut, and now is retired.

BBI would just bitch about something else.
Oh and mrvax  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:33 pm : link
As drkenneth said what OL would you have signed. There is the reality of what's available. Schwatz's brother was the only fit I remembered and I'm not sure that was realistic given his preferences.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: panties in a bunch?  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13080167 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080158 BillT said:


Quote:


Remember, they are also still catching up from losing two starters in Beatty and Schwartz. That was just last year. We'd all have liked to see more done but given what they got done elsewhere (like on D) is understandable.



but even if they had those two starters today they still wouldn't have any backups.

That's not true, they would have had Jerry and Newhouse.
Who cares about the OL  
slickwilly : 8/21/2016 1:34 pm : link
What would you have done as GM when you found out Josh Brown was an abuser?
As I've argued on this board for years, I've disagreed with every OL m  
twostepgiants : 8/21/2016 1:35 pm : link
Move to rebuild this OL.

It's been the #1 problem since 2013 season.

We have had a franchise QB this whole time and needed to rebuild in free agency and not by the draft.

OL take several years to come into own and a line takes some time to gel. Put it together and it doesn't add up to way to rebuild OL with a QB who has won SBs already in his 30s.

On top of it the Giants have dropped cash like drunken sailors in 2 of these free agency periods.

We should have signed veteran free agent OL from the beginning and used our draft picks on skill positions.

The free agents we did sign, we had gambles at bargain prices.

About the only call that was decent was Geoff Schwartz and unfortunately got injured.

I can remember wanted Evan Dietrich Smith over JD Walton, a signing I never understood in 2014.

I can remember really wanting Mike Iupati in 2015

In terms of this free agency, I wanted Mitchell Schwartz.

We could have gotten Okung and Schwartz for the same price as Vernon and locked the bookend tackles for the rest of Eli career.

What I'm saying though is that the fundamental theory of rebuilding this OL was wrong from the beginning. We should have signed quality free agents as our top priority and not drafted rookie OL in first rounds. It would have changed everything we did.
And let's just ignore the fact that with average defense last year,  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:35 pm : link
this team wins 8 games. More if Coughlin didn't shit his pants.

Shit, they should have won 8 LAST YEAR, with a god awful defense.

But the OL is a disaster. (Not saying it's good)
RE: RE: You're very welcome.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13080170 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13080159 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


It's what you deserve, obviously.

Not very hard to decipher, anyway. This has been far from 'overnight.' You're very welcome, nonetheless. This is all TC's fault! *holds in laughter*



Do you ever actually contribute? You're like a yappy dog.

This thread is one of those BBI IQ tests.

The decent BBI posters usually contribute, and I enjoy the discussion. Those posters have actual insight, opinions, facts...

Then you have the folks like you and chris r. And the guy who thinks we should have spent $60mil on a G, and have our starting LT be someone who was cut, and now is retired.

BBI would just bitch about something else.


This coming from an idiotic fanboy who did nothing but blame all of the Giants' failures, including the players we drafted and signed, all on the coach. Now, the coach isn't here, and we still major issues on the OLine, TE, and depth ALL over the team.

This isn't "bitching", you moron. This is realistic concern that anyone with a functioning brain would have. Not a surprise that a blind fanboy such as yourself can't see that. You're an embarrassment. But let me guess, this is all TC's fault, right? Lel.
RE: Tunsil had issues?  
Klaatu : 8/21/2016 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13080117 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Never an arrest, never a failed drug test.
The best player at a position of extreme need falls to us unexpectadly and all the room could think of is plqy it safe, remember!
So they froze.
Then they sign a significant free agent..at cornerback.


I guess you really don't get tired of posting the same thing over and over again, so I will post a reply...again.

Tunsil had more issues than weed. Durability was one. And now he's locked in mortal combat with one of the worst Guards in the league for the starting LG spot in Miami. The idea that he would have been our O-Line savior is, at the very least, debatable.

In case you hadn't noticed, we had the worst (or second worst) pass defense in the league last year. Part of that was due to our lack of a pass-rush, but the woeful play of our CBs (other than DRC), along with their inability to stay healthy (including DRC, who's also getting up there in age) was a big factor, too.

In case you also hadn't noticed, teams are trotting out 3 WR sets about two thirds of the time, 4 WRs about a quarter of the time. Your third CB is essentially a starter. Our third CB, prior to the draft, was Trevin Wade. Not as bad as some made out, but eminently upgradeabe (sic). So, instead of "freezing," as you allege without any evidence to back it up, the Giants drafted the CB who was obviously the one they had ranked highest on their board. The one with the size and speed they've always coveted, and the one with the most proverbial upside. And when they had the chance to sign an additional CB - an accomplished veteran - they did. I don't see where the problem is. You can never have enough good CBs.
Coulda kept Beatty and Schwartz  
aquidneck : 8/21/2016 1:35 pm : link
There's your alternatives for Jerry and Newhouse and there's your depth.

Coulda done nothing at all.

Must still be betting on (besides Hart) one or more of the young guys to mature.

RE: RE: signed Osemele  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13080152 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13080124 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


or maybe offer Eugene Monroe the LT spot.

Never mind the countless offensive linemen I wanted in the draft.



Osemele got $60 million to play guard. Monroes retired.

Try again.


Hey, I wanted the Giants to draft Osemele and Marcus Cannon years ago. Monroe wanted to be a LT and the Giants told him no apparently.

Try again? You think it takes 10 years to build an OL b/c the Giants have built 2.5 players for the OL in five years. Overnight? Try again.
RE: RE: RE: signed Osemele  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:38 pm : link
In comment 13080183 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080152 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13080124 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


or maybe offer Eugene Monroe the LT spot.

Never mind the countless offensive linemen I wanted in the draft.



Osemele got $60 million to play guard. Monroes retired.

Try again.



Hey, I wanted the Giants to draft Osemele and Marcus Cannon years ago. Monroe wanted to be a LT and the Giants told him no apparently.

Try again? You think it takes 10 years to build an OL b/c the Giants have built 2.5 players for the OL in five years. Overnight? Try again.


Meh. Give 'em another 5 years. They'll get it right, eventually. Right...?
Would have drafted  
Phil in LA : 8/21/2016 1:38 pm : link
Taylor Decker. Though Apple was my favorite CB.
RE: As I've argued on this board for years, I've disagreed with every OL m  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13080177 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Move to rebuild this OL.

It's been the #1 problem since 2013 season.

We have had a franchise QB this whole time and needed to rebuild in free agency and not by the draft.

OL take several years to come into own and a line takes some time to gel. Put it together and it doesn't add up to way to rebuild OL with a QB who has won SBs already in his 30s.

On top of it the Giants have dropped cash like drunken sailors in 2 of these free agency periods.

We should have signed veteran free agent OL from the beginning and used our draft picks on skill positions.

The free agents we did sign, we had gambles at bargain prices.

About the only call that was decent was Geoff Schwartz and unfortunately got injured.

I can remember wanted Evan Dietrich Smith over JD Walton, a signing I never understood in 2014.

I can remember really wanting Mike Iupati in 2015

In terms of this free agency, I wanted Mitchell Schwartz.

We could have gotten Okung and Schwartz for the same price as Vernon and locked the bookend tackles for the rest of Eli career.

What I'm saying though is that the fundamental theory of rebuilding this OL was wrong from the beginning. We should have signed quality free agents as our top priority and not drafted rookie OL in first rounds. It would have changed everything we did.


So you wanted Okung and Schwartz over Vernon?

That is crazy talk.
RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
j_rud : 8/21/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13080147 BillT said:
Quote:
If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.


That's simply not true, at least not in this case. They had several OL in for visits. If the stars aligned they would have signed. It's not like those guys didn't come here because the FO didn't have enough "time and resources".

I really think signing Schwartz is hard to argue with. Not cheap but wouldn't have broken the bank or hamstrung them in the future. Above average starter. Giants have their OTs for the rest of Eli's career.
RE: RE: RE: signed Osemele  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13080183 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080152 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13080124 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


or maybe offer Eugene Monroe the LT spot.

Never mind the countless offensive linemen I wanted in the draft.



Osemele got $60 million to play guard. Monroes retired.

Try again.



Hey, I wanted the Giants to draft Osemele and Marcus Cannon years ago. Monroe wanted to be a LT and the Giants told him no apparently.

Try again? You think it takes 10 years to build an OL b/c the Giants have built 2.5 players for the OL in five years. Overnight? Try again.


How has it been 10 years? I never said it should take 10 years.

This OL needs at least one more solid starter. Every fucking team in the NFL can say that about some position.

RE: RE: RE: RE: signed Osemele  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13080185 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
Try again? You think it takes 10 years to build an OL b/c the Giants have built 2.5 players for the OL in five years. Overnight? Try again.



Meh. Give 'em another 5 years. They'll get it right, eventually. Right...?


I hope so. We're sporting 19 wins over three years and still need 2.5 players to complete the starting five. Never mind the backups which are non-existent.
RE: As I've argued on this board for years, I've disagreed with every OL m  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13080177 twostepgiants said:
Quote:


What I'm saying though is that the fundamental theory of rebuilding this OL was wrong from the beginning. We should have signed quality free agents as our top priority and not drafted rookie OL in first rounds. It would have changed everything we did.

This I'd disagree with. In any team in today's pass happy NFL that is playing a 4-3 defense the top signing and drafting priorities have to be (in no particular order) WR, DL, DB. You can't be good everywhere and you can't sacrifice talent in these positions for OLs.
It's as if 45% of BBI thinks it's 1986.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:45 pm : link
45% is 16 years old, and thinks its Madden.

The other 10% is reasonable.
RE: It's as if 45% of BBI thinks it's 1986.  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13080196 drkenneth said:
Quote:
45% is 16 years old, and thinks its Madden.

The other 10% is reasonable.


Let's hear your solution since your perception is others have some panty issue while sporting that bra on your head.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: signed Osemele  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13080194 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080185 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


Try again? You think it takes 10 years to build an OL b/c the Giants have built 2.5 players for the OL in five years. Overnight? Try again.



Meh. Give 'em another 5 years. They'll get it right, eventually. Right...?



I hope so. We're sporting 19 wins over three years and still need 2.5 players to complete the starting five. Never mind the backups which are non-existent.


Right? Oh well. At least we're not blind fanboys unlike some on here. So much for the issues magically going away..
I would have fixed it.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/21/2016 1:50 pm : link
YW.
RE: RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
BillT : 8/21/2016 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13080192 j_rud said:
Quote:
In comment 13080147 BillT said:


Quote:


If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.



That's simply not true, at least not in this case. They had several OL in for visits. If the stars aligned they would have signed. It's not like those guys didn't come here because the FO didn't have enough "time and resources".

I really think signing Schwartz is hard to argue with. Not cheap but wouldn't have broken the bank or hamstrung them in the future. Above average starter. Giants have their OTs for the rest of Eli's career.

He would have been a good signing but I never thought he gave the Giants much chance to sign him. He wasted to play elsewhere and was going to get his money from someone and he did. Just not sure how realistic he was especially with his brother's history here.
Mitchell Schwartz and Osemele  
micky : 8/21/2016 1:52 pm : link
I would've given hard look to..Since draft didn't produce one. Although, I don't know what their asking price were at time and interests (player)..then fill some depth possible with upcoming cuts. Basically would've helped imo since this off season other areas, defense, drew most need. Next off season, vital to address the OL and poss. TE
Jason Spriggs  
shyster : 8/21/2016 1:52 pm : link
was there in the second and Packers moved up to get him shortly after we passed. I would have taken him as projected LT and planned to move Flowers to RT.

Relying on a rookie is not what you want but that's better than standing pat after the way FA worked out (or didn't). And Spriggs is significantly more athletic than Flowers.

In the larger picture, I would have taken the Jets up on the offer of their 2nd round pick to move up in the first.
They need to move Flowers to RT  
jeff57 : 8/21/2016 1:55 pm : link
.
RE: RE: It's as if 45% of BBI thinks it's 1986.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13080197 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080196 drkenneth said:


Quote:


45% is 16 years old, and thinks its Madden.

The other 10% is reasonable.



Let's hear your solution since your perception is others have some panty issue while sporting that bra on your head.


I did not see an available upgrade at OT.

Mitchell Schwartz would have been nice, but we just cut his brother, and he may not have been an option.

Not sure how anyone can bitch about our off-season- If you want to say that not going hard after Schwartz was a mistake, I think that's reasonable, but it's a two-way street. Maybe he never wanted to play here (something BBI struggles with)

I was a fan of Conklin, but that didn't happen.

This team isn't perfect. But no team in today's NFL is (another something BBI can wrap their head around).

This is going to be the OL for 2016.
Some veteran cut will make it to our roster, watch.....  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 1:58 pm : link
But it has to be someone that "fits" and such. I know we haven't looked good but I have faith in coach Solari to coach these guys up.

I thought OC Brett Jones played well yesterday. I didn't think he'd make the final 53 but now as thinking he may be the backup OC / OG after Hart.
If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
jeff57 : 8/21/2016 1:59 pm : link
They should have traded up to 8 to take him.
RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
BillT : 8/21/2016 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:
Quote:
They should have traded up to 8 to take him.

And lost Shepard to do so. So you want Conklin over Apple and Shepard. No thanks.
Signed someone, but I also would've taken LT Le'Raven Clark  
Anakim : 8/21/2016 2:04 pm : link
With our third rounder, even though he's a project.
RE: Signed someone, but I also would've taken LT Le'Raven Clark  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:06 pm : link
In comment 13080224 Anakim said:
Quote:
With our third rounder, even though he's a project.


So you'd take a project LT over our starting, rookie FS?
Apparently it's easier to speak about panties  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 2:06 pm : link
than recognize the draft both this past year and historically which has led to this mess.
RE: RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
jeff57 : 8/21/2016 2:07 pm : link
In comment 13080219 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:


Quote:


They should have traded up to 8 to take him.


And lost Shepard to do so. So you want Conklin over Apple and Shepard. No thanks.

Wouldn't have cost them a 2.
Our top 3 2016 draft picks are starters.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:08 pm : link
Apple essentially will be, Shepperd, and Thompson.

Saying you'd throw back one of them is a but much.
RE: Apparently it's easier to speak about panties  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13080226 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
than recognize the draft both this past year and historically which has led to this mess.


This past year? You mean 2016? or 2015?
Both of which produced multiple starters.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:10 pm : link
You take your pill today?
RE: RE: Apparently it's easier to speak about panties  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13080231 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13080226 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


than recognize the draft both this past year and historically which has led to this mess.



This past year? You mean 2016? or 2015?


The line has stunk for four years which you apparently dismiss as overnight.
RE: RE: RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
Klaatu : 8/21/2016 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13080229 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080219 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:


Quote:


They should have traded up to 8 to take him.


And lost Shepard to do so. So you want Conklin over Apple and Shepard. No thanks.


Wouldn't have cost them a 2.


It would have next year, because the Browns also got the Titans' 2017 2nd round pick in addition to their 2016 3rd rounder.

But to rephrase Bill's post, so you would want Conklin over Apple and Darian Thompson? No thanks. And I'm the guy who started a thread that said, "Give me Jack Conklin or give me death."
RE: RE: RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
BillT : 8/21/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13080229 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080219 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:


Quote:


They should have traded up to 8 to take him.


And lost Shepard to do so. So you want Conklin over Apple and Shepard. No thanks.


Wouldn't have cost them a 2.

Ok, a 3 then. Apple and Thompson for Conklin. Better but still no thanks.
RE: RE: RE: You can't answer this in a vacuum  
j_rud : 8/21/2016 2:20 pm : link
In comment 13080204 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13080192 j_rud said:


Quote:


In comment 13080147 BillT said:


Quote:


If you're going to go get a major FA OL tell me what major defensive FA you aren't going to get. And it's not just a money factor. You can only sign so many players. There just isn't the time and resources to sign everyone you like. Reese said even he was pleased he got all of his top FA choices to sign. So make a choice but it should be realistic in terms of overall FA acquisitions.



That's simply not true, at least not in this case. They had several OL in for visits. If the stars aligned they would have signed. It's not like those guys didn't come here because the FO didn't have enough "time and resources".

I really think signing Schwartz is hard to argue with. Not cheap but wouldn't have broken the bank or hamstrung them in the future. Above average starter. Giants have their OTs for the rest of Eli's career.


He would have been a good signing but I never thought he gave the Giants much chance to sign him. He wasted to play elsewhere and was going to get his money from someone and he did. Just not sure how realistic he was especially with his brother's history here.


Its certainly a possibility that Geoff could have tried to steer Mitchell away from the Giants. But if they showed legitimate interest you've gotta think any agent worth his salt would get him in for a visit. And from there it's pretty much all about the money. If the Giants offered the best deal, which wouldn't have been prohibitive going forward, he likely would have signed here. You've gotta think playing for this offense, with a franchise QB and one of the top WRs in the game, in the NY market, would have been an easy sell.

And if not, the point on Beatty remains. It would be tough to convince me he'd be worse than Newhouse. And while he's still currently a FA, does anyone think Newhouse would be scooped up quickly if he were suddenly cut loose? His phone might ring mid season when someone goes down to replace the depth that would theoretically step up. Might.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
jeff57 : 8/21/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13080238 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13080229 jeff57 said:


Quote:


In comment 13080219 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:


Quote:


They should have traded up to 8 to take him.


And lost Shepard to do so. So you want Conklin over Apple and Shepard. No thanks.


Wouldn't have cost them a 2.



It would have next year, because the Browns also got the Titans' 2017 2nd round pick in addition to their 2016 3rd rounder.

But to rephrase Bill's post, so you would want Conklin over Apple and Darian Thompson? No thanks. And I'm the guy who started a thread that said, "Give me Jack Conklin or give me death."

Titans moved up 7 spots, not 2.
I'm  
AcidTest : 8/21/2016 2:23 pm : link
not sure what they could have done recently.

Osemele was much too expensive, and Monroe retired.

Passing on Tunsil was also correct. That picture of him with the bong was lethal to any discussion of our drafting him. I won't fault Reese for not taking Tunsil, even if he ends up in the HOF. After Will Hill, we weren't getting involved with any more dope smokers, certainly not with a top ten pick. The problem is that Tunsil falling eliminated our chance to take Conklin. Clark is a project. I'm not sure how much he could help us this year. Going back further, I would have taken Cordy Glenn over David Wilson.

Reese also absolutely had to fix the defense, which was historically bad. The Giants offense was effective last year with this OL. Flowers was a rookie LT playing on a bum ankle, and it was the first year for Richburg at center. Reese probably thought the OL would improve this year just for those reasons, an that still might happen. We have to hope that the current problems are more from a lack of chemistry than talent.

The question though is what the Giants can do now. It won't happen, but I hope they contact Beatty. I do think they will add a few OL from other teams after cuts, and there is an increasing chance that Donnell is gone because of his poor blocking.
My top 3 picks in the 2016 draft would have been two WR and an OL  
baadbill : 8/21/2016 2:23 pm : link
It's what I wanted draft day and what I wish today, more than ever, they had done.
RE: RE: RE: Apparently it's easier to speak about panties  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13080237 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080231 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13080226 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


than recognize the draft both this past year and historically which has led to this mess.



This past year? You mean 2016? or 2015?



The line has stunk for four years which you apparently dismiss as overnight.


That's not an answer.
Jeff57, you're still giving up Apple and Thompson to draft Conklin.  
Klaatu : 8/21/2016 2:25 pm : link
And I still wouldn't make that trade.
I wouldn't have relied on Newhouse jerry or hart to win starting jobs  
Patrick77 : 8/21/2016 2:27 pm : link
I wouldn't have insisted Flowers is the LT no matter what. I would have spent money like a drunken sailor for a final run while Eli is still in his "prime". Osemele or Clady for a heavy price and an open competition on the offensive line. I might even have kept the soft Will Beatty in conjunction with them sadly. When they got injured we'd be in the same potential wreck we are now.

This would very very likely put the team in a position where they can't afford to even try to keep JPP and lead to eventual cap hell.

After that crashed and burned or the team imploded after a Super Bowl run I would be fired and never hired again. But my panties wouldn't be in a bunch so there's that.
Sign  
PaulN : 8/21/2016 2:31 pm : link
One of the free agent left tackles. Could have had a few as I recall, Penn was one. Reese is a stubborn fuck. I hope his arrogance proves he knows something we all don't, otherwise it is another wasted year with a franchise QB, just imagine what this shitshow would look like without one, and is this guy capable of bringing one in? He hasn't brought one in yet, I know we have one but he drafted Nassib, that looks pretty bad right now also. I am not in a good mood today and Reese is a bad subject, best I sign off.
I don't know what you could have done  
SHO'NUFF : 8/21/2016 2:33 pm : link
but I do know what you absolutely cannot do, and that is to go into the season with both Jerry and Newhouse penciled in as starters on the right side. Either one or the other can start, not preferable, but at most, one of the guys. Not both!
Question..  
Modus Operandi : 8/21/2016 2:35 pm : link
Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?
RE: Sign  
Klaatu : 8/21/2016 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13080253 PaulN said:
Quote:
One of the free agent left tackles. Could have had a few as I recall, Penn was one. Reese is a stubborn fuck. I hope his arrogance proves he knows something we all don't, otherwise it is another wasted year with a franchise QB, just imagine what this shitshow would look like without one, and is this guy capable of bringing one in? He hasn't brought one in yet, I know we have one but he drafted Nassib, that looks pretty bad right now also. I am not in a good mood today and Reese is a bad subject, best I sign off.


The Giants invited Penn for a visit, but he decided to re-sign with Oakland and blew us off. Try again.

Oh, and when are you ever in a good mood? You're about the most miserable SOB I've ever encountered.
You move Flowers to RT for a season or two  
Vanzetti : 8/21/2016 2:38 pm : link
and you sign one of the numerous LTs that were available in free agency.

Making an "absolute" commitment to Flowers at LT, regardless of circumstances, is a textbook example of an inflexible approach. Even putting aside the question of moving him to RT, what are the Giants plans if Flowers gets injured? Reshuffle the entire line? Or put Stingily at LT? If so, that's a bad plan.

The fact is they are a tackle short. Hart has yet to prove he is at all capable of playing tackle. Newhouse should be a backup at this point in his career. So really, Giants only have one starting caliber tackle on the roster. That's not good when you are in win-now mode and looking for the offense to be a powerhouse.

When you factor in the Giants remaining cap space, not addressing this problem was a major blunder. I'm a Reese supporter. I think he took a lot more heat than he deserved. However, there is just no denying the tackle situation is a fuck up. How big a fuck up remains to be seen.



how do you improve the O-line?  
SHO'NUFF : 8/21/2016 2:39 pm : link
by re-signing Martellus Bennett.
I Dont understand why people continue to  
djm : 8/21/2016 2:41 pm : link
Say that the oline needs to be fixed. It wasn't broken last year it just wasn't excellent.

The oline played well enough to win 10-11 games last season. The D was in dire need of being fixed. But hey... Gotta bash something carry on.
In order to move Flowers to RT (which I am not against)-  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 2:41 pm : link
You need a viable, LONG TERM alternative at LT (See Ronnie Stanley).

You can't fuck up Flowers' development by shifting him back to RT for a washed up Donald Penn or Okung.

Issue # 137 BBI struggles to comprehend.

This isn't just "Reese being stubborn"

RE: Question..  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 2:46 pm : link
In comment 13080258 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?


You might want to look up the term 'passive aggressive.' I was pretty direct in my disagreement. Stay obsessed, though.
RE: Question..  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 2:49 pm : link
In comment 13080258 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?


"lel"
Marcellus is a very good blocker  
OldPolack : 8/21/2016 2:50 pm : link
and also a weapon as a receiver.
Wait till you see New England's running game this year.
.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 2:52 pm : link
I can type 'lol' if it makes people feel better..

My apologies. Now all of a sudden BBI is sensitive..
RE: You move Flowers to RT for a season or two  
BillT : 8/21/2016 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13080261 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
and you sign one of the numerous LTs that were available in free agency.


Could you name the "numerous LTs that were available in free agency."?
Okung is perennially injured, isn't he?  
section125 : 8/21/2016 2:52 pm : link
They dumped Schwartz and Beatty because they were perennially injured, no? Okung was offered a contract and he declined. Had he signed and went to LT, in a few weeks Flowers would have been back at LT when Okung got hurt and then the same group would be screaming about signing injured players.

The defense needed the most help and got it.

As for the cap - need money for Odell, Pugh, Hankins, Richburg and maybe JPP. They would have spent another $8 mill or so IF (BIG IF) the right guy was there. He wasn't.

What would I have done? Probably like Jerry - fix the defense and live with the offense.


.  
Go Terps : 8/21/2016 2:54 pm : link
I'm not going to go nuts over a couple preseason games, but I was worried back in April about the direction of the team. Specifically, the reactive nature of the free agency acquisitions signifies a lack of an overall plan.

My top concern entering the off-season was depth at wide receiver and offensive line. The strength of this team is the offense, and little was done to reinforce that side of the ball. This team as a Beckham knee sprain away from major problems.

The plan seems to continue to be to patch holes rather than reinforce strengths.

RE: Marcellus is a very good blocker  
B in ALB : 8/21/2016 2:57 pm : link
In comment 13080274 OldPolack said:
Quote:
and also a weapon as a receiver.
Wait till you see New England's running game this year.


Pffft. Not with Dion Lewis out for most of the season.
I would have done everything exactly the same  
ghost718 : 8/21/2016 2:57 pm : link
Only difference is I would have bought a ticket to Tibet,Jerry's going to Belize.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Apparently it's easier to speak about panties  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13080247 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13080237 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 13080231 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13080226 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


than recognize the draft both this past year and historically which has led to this mess.



This past year? You mean 2016? or 2015?



The line has stunk for four years which you apparently dismiss as overnight.



That's not an answer.


Dismissing the other answers and praising panties isn't a solution either. The Giants have stunk in the draft for years and have failed to build a quality offensive line. They didn't even draft an offensive lineman this year and have drafted so few offensive linemen over the years they've accumulated approx 2.5 starters and nothing else. This build has had enough time for more than this. Preaching panties and overnight indicates you haven't paid close attention at all. Oh, and with approx $20 million in cap space they could have signed Osemele with or without all the defensive signings.
RE: I Dont understand why people continue to  
micky : 8/21/2016 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13080264 djm said:
Quote:
Say that the oline needs to be fixed. It wasn't broken last year it just wasn't excellent.

The oline played well enough to win 10-11 games last season. The D was in dire need of being fixed. But hey... Gotta bash something carry on.


granted, the defense needed fixing first and foremost. With that being said, quite a few of those games lost be defense at end of games, could've been nil if the OL could run block within 5 mins at end of those games which would've turned those L's to W's..even if it was 3 games or so. run game has hindered this team and efficiency of the offense and it's because of OL and TE's not doing the basics..run block..that's the problem
RE: And let's just ignore the fact that with average defense last year,  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/21/2016 3:03 pm : link
In comment 13080178 drkenneth said:
Quote:
this team wins 8 games. More if Coughlin didn't shit his pants.

Shit, they should have won 8 LAST YEAR, with a god awful defense.

But the OL is a disaster. (Not saying it's good)


This team may not have have won 3 games if Coughlin wasn't coaching.
As for what I would have done  
Go Terps : 8/21/2016 3:04 pm : link
I would have prioritized signing Osemele and Schwartz. I'd have signed Boldin.

I guess we'll see how things go.
RE: As for what I would have done  
BillT : 8/21/2016 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13080296 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I would have prioritized signing Osemele and Schwartz. I'd have signed Boldin.

I guess we'll see how things go.

And not signed Harrison, or Vernon or Jenkins? Ok then.
RE: What I envisioned  
djstat : 8/21/2016 3:13 pm : link
In comment 13080118 TyFromQueens said:
Quote:
Was Beatty coming back and Flowers playing RT for his first few years.

Once we cut Beatty I figured we would,sign a LT and move Flowers to RT for the next 1-2 seasons.
If you thought we were moving Flowers to RT after last season you are not that smart
RE: I would have tried to negotiate with Beatty instead of cutting him.  
djstat : 8/21/2016 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13080145 j_rud said:
Quote:
As for free agents, I think Mitchell Schwartz would have been a great signing and I would have pursued him hard. He didn't exactly sign for cheap but it was well below the deals that Okung and Osemele signed. His cap number never goes over 6 and that's not until the back end of a 5 yr contract. With the Giants cap situation it wouldn't have prohibited them down the road. He's an ascending player and a prototypical RT, so the team could have stuck by their plan to develop Flowers as the LT of the future. 5 years/33 mill isn't a lot when it means you have your starting tackles for the rest of Eli's career.

The FA crop was pretty bare for RTs, but signing Schwartz and retaining Beatty would make the roster a lot deeper at a position of absolute weakness. Even just keeping Beatty would be an improvement. Who knows, maybe he fell off a cliff. I just have a hard time believing he's any worse than Newhouse.
Beatty is still a free agent seems like no one wants him
RE: RE: And let's just ignore the fact that with average defense last year,  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13080294 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13080178 drkenneth said:


Quote:


this team wins 8 games. More if Coughlin didn't shit his pants.

Shit, they should have won 8 LAST YEAR, with a god awful defense.

But the OL is a disaster. (Not saying it's good)



This team may not have have won 3 games if Coughlin wasn't coaching.


You're right. Coughlin did such a great job last year, he is no longer is a NFL coach.
I'd have certainly been open to moving Flowers to RT  
yatqb : 8/21/2016 3:17 pm : link
so that I could sign one of the available LTs or traded for Clady.

I might also have tried to trade up for Conklin (although a 3 and a 2017 2 was a lot to give up) OR trade down to a place where we could take Decker or Kelly comfortably.

But we've also been unlucky. I think Schwartz would have been excellent for us, but he was injured all the time he was here.
Would have given Osemele a blank check  
jlukes : 8/21/2016 3:19 pm : link
.
Calm Down  
djstat : 8/21/2016 3:20 pm : link
This is pre season football. No game planning. No scheming and players trying not to get hurt. Pugh didn't play. Hart has never played left guard. The play call was meh. Its the 2nd PRE SEASON game.

The offense you are seeing is so vanilla. The offensive line looked like it ran two protections. A traditional cup protection and a Big on Big protection. Bth of these are as pop warner as it gets.
RE: .  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/21/2016 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13080278 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not going to go nuts over a couple preseason games, but I was worried back in April about the direction of the team. Specifically, the reactive nature of the free agency acquisitions signifies a lack of an overall plan.

My top concern entering the off-season was depth at wide receiver and offensive line. The strength of this team is the offense, and little was done to reinforce that side of the ball. This team as a Beckham knee sprain away from major problems.

The plan seems to continue to be to patch holes rather than reinforce strengths.


You have no clue if it was reactive or not. You also no idea what the plan was or wasn't. You're just making crap up.
move pugh out to RT  
msh : 8/21/2016 3:24 pm : link
leave flowers at RT,move pugh to RT and just cut newhouse now (he is a complete liability virtually anyone available post cuts would be better)

flower hart richburg jerry pugh becomes the line to start at this point

i have no problem with the way draft panned out and the guys they got,ai i think they picked solid with every single pick and got some out and out steals, but there was cap space and free agents better than jerry and newhouse available post draft and doing the nothing which they did wasnt an option
draft an OT high next offseason  
msh : 8/21/2016 3:27 pm : link
move pugh back beside flowers again and start the OT at RT,if hart doesnt cut it at OG you also look for an OG in first 4 picks (which i would be inclined to do regardless to safeguard the depth on the OL)
RE: .  
j_rud : 8/21/2016 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13080278 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm not going to go nuts over a couple preseason games, but I was worried back in April about the direction of the team. Specifically, the reactive nature of the free agency acquisitions signifies a lack of an overall plan.

My top concern entering the off-season was depth at wide receiver and offensive line. The strength of this team is the offense, and little was done to reinforce that side of the ball. This team as a Beckham knee sprain away from major problems.

The plan seems to continue to be to patch holes rather than reinforce strengths.


There's a difference between not having "an overall plan" and not following the plan You want. You also characterize the FA signings as patching holes, but what would signing a FA OL have been?

Man, it must get lonely being the smartest guy in the room all the time...
RE: RE: Signed someone, but I also would've taken LT Le'Raven Clark  
Anakim : 8/21/2016 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13080225 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13080224 Anakim said:


Quote:


With our third rounder, even though he's a project.



So you'd take a project LT over our starting, rookie FS?


Considering I had Clark ranked ahead of Thompson? Yes, I would have.
RE: RE: Question..  
Modus Operandi : 8/21/2016 4:03 pm : link
In comment 13080270 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13080258 Modus Operandi said:


Quote:


Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?



You might want to look up the term 'passive aggressive.' I was pretty direct in my disagreement. Stay obsessed, though.


Propping up straw men and arguing against comments no one has made isn't exactly direct. But that appears to you your preferred method of discourse.

But you do still have the patented Dave in Hoboken "you mad, bro?" to fall back on.

Chris r, Giants2012 and Dave in Hoboken. BBI's pillars of intellect.

lel
Modus preaching  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 4:07 pm : link
a Staten Island hubcap trailer
RE: RE: RE: Question..  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 4:11 pm : link
In comment 13080378 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
In comment 13080270 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13080258 Modus Operandi said:


Quote:


Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?



You might want to look up the term 'passive aggressive.' I was pretty direct in my disagreement. Stay obsessed, though.



Propping up straw men and arguing against comments no one has made isn't exactly direct. But that appears to you your preferred method of discourse.

But you do still have the patented Dave in Hoboken "you mad, bro?" to fall back on.

Chris r, Giants2012 and Dave in Hoboken. BBI's pillars of intellect.

lel


Propping up strawmen, aka pointing out that the OLine is an area of concern? Yikes. If only we can all have the logic and intellect of you. Continue to follow me around, though. It's cute.
Might have to move to Staten Island  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 4:14 pm : link
to hang out at the Modus hubcap stand.
RE: If they liked Conklin as much as it appeared  
chopperhatch : 8/21/2016 4:22 pm : link
In comment 13080213 jeff57 said:
Quote:
They should have traded up to 8 to take him.



You're just not a good poster. Im not mad at you, it's not your fault your dumb.
Poor way to start a thread  
Overseer : 8/21/2016 4:25 pm : link
Especially when you simultaneously lament the (perceived) non-contributions of other posters. Both frustration and unease are warranted and don't necessarily constitute bunched up panties.

That said:

You know your QB is by far your most important player.
You know he is 35 and has a ton of mileage on that body.
You know he is fairly immobile and there are great pass rushers on opposing teams, most worryingly on the biggest thorn in your side with Fletcher Cox (even fucking Conner Barwin manages to look like an All-Pro against the Giants).
You know that with even decent pass protection he and your star WR are going to score points.

So you choose to spend 60M on Jenkins and 85M on Vernon. Not necessarily bad signings since the D was sensationally awful in 2015. But the least bad course IMV would have been to sign Snacks to secure the Run D, hope that JPP bounces back (likely), and hope that Odighizuwa can start. Then dump the Vernon/Jenkins - or at least the Jenkins - money into the FAs, like Okung, mentioned above.

Short-version: no Jenkins, sign Okung instead. Flowers over to RT. Hope a serviceable RG shakes loose. Holes would have remained. That what happens when you are a bad football team. But going into 2016 with not 1, not 2, but 3 Oline positions fully uncertain and horrendous depth is a recipe for disaster.

Last point: the Giants haven't of course haven't neglected the Oline...they've just addressed it poorly (and had some bad luck with injuries). A lot is riding on Flowers, a 9th overall pick. It is really a problem if he busts.
Tunsil  
DennyInDenville : 8/21/2016 4:26 pm : link
Tunsil
The OL is an area of concern?  
Modus Operandi : 8/21/2016 4:27 pm : link
Nice scoop.

The question everyone keeps asking you, and the subject of the OP is, "What would you have done as GM?" And instead contributing a response, you keep whining and misrepresenting others' comments as saying all is well. Color me unsurprised.

And obsession is a mischaracterization. It implies I think about you. But kicking you around these threads is certainly a favorite hobby. I'll admit that much.
I can't comment on the draft, but I think  
Big Blue '56 : 8/21/2016 4:34 pm : link
we did our best do-diligence-wise..The only one (that we know of) that we never had a chance to sign was Penn. He wanted back with Oakland..Otherwise we looked at who we could and most likely passed on people who have either lost a step or two or were injury risks..Not sure what more can be done..There are still roster parings to happen, so we'll see what, if anything, shakes out..Reese is on it, imv, despite the hatred thrown around on here by some..
Bong joke,  
oldog : 8/21/2016 4:35 pm : link
young guys will joke and fool around. A young guy with #1 draft choice talent and a lively sense of humor. No, please give us a kid that kneels to say his prayers every night.
RE: Poor way to start a thread  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 4:36 pm : link
In comment 13080399 Overseer said:
Quote:
Especially when you simultaneously lament the (perceived) non-contributions of other posters. Both frustration and unease are warranted and don't necessarily constitute bunched up panties.

That said:

You know your QB is by far your most important player.
You know he is 35 and has a ton of mileage on that body.
You know he is fairly immobile and there are great pass rushers on opposing teams, most worryingly on the biggest thorn in your side with Fletcher Cox (even fucking Conner Barwin manages to look like an All-Pro against the Giants).
You know that with even decent pass protection he and your star WR are going to score points.

So you choose to spend 60M on Jenkins and 85M on Vernon. Not necessarily bad signings since the D was sensationally awful in 2015. But the least bad course IMV would have been to sign Snacks to secure the Run D, hope that JPP bounces back (likely), and hope that Odighizuwa can start. Then dump the Vernon/Jenkins - or at least the Jenkins - money into the FAs, like Okung, mentioned above.

Short-version: no Jenkins, sign Okung instead. Flowers over to RT. Hope a serviceable RG shakes loose. Holes would have remained. That what happens when you are a bad football team. But going into 2016 with not 1, not 2, but 3 Oline positions fully uncertain and horrendous depth is a recipe for disaster.

Last point: the Giants haven't of course haven't neglected the Oline...they've just addressed it poorly (and had some bad luck with injuries). A lot is riding on Flowers, a 9th overall pick. It is really a problem if he busts.


You're all over the place here:

"You know that with even decent pass protection he and your star WR are going to score points."

-Did they not do that last year? Or was the defense historically bad?

"Not necessarily bad signings since the D was sensationally awful in 2015."

-Saying the signings on D were ""Not necessarily bad signings" is the equivalent of saying it's not a bad idea to grab a fire extinguisher when a fire breaks out.

" But the least bad course IMV would have been to sign Snacks to secure the Run D, hope that JPP bounces back (likely), and hope that Odighizuwa can start. Then dump the Vernon/Jenkins - or at least the Jenkins - money into the FAs, like Okung, mentioned above."

-You use the word "hope" twice here. That's your strategy?

You rather spend $$ on a LT who has never played a 16 game season? Then "hope" for the best on defense?
RE: The OL is an area of concern?  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 4:38 pm : link
In comment 13080403 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Nice scoop.

The question everyone keeps asking you, and the subject of the OP is, "What would you have done as GM?" And instead contributing a response


You haven't addressed the OP question yet whine about others responses? Are you really that f'ed up?
RE: The OL is an area of concern?  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 4:39 pm : link
In comment 13080403 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Nice scoop.

The question everyone keeps asking you, and the subject of the OP is, "What would you have done as GM?" And instead contributing a response, you keep whining and misrepresenting others' comments as saying all is well. Color me unsurprised.

And obsession is a mischaracterization. It implies I think about you. But kicking you around these threads is certainly a favorite hobby. I'll admit that much.


I would've drafted Tunsil. Happy? What is the point of posting that it when it didn't happen, and when we are way past that as a possibility? And no one 'kept asking me' this question, either. I like how supposedly 'misrepresenting others' comments' is a problem, but the calling multiple posters 'panty-waists' in the OP is perfectly fine. More brilliant BBI logic at it's finest, though.

And bro, you're not kicking anyone around. You were butt-hurt that not everyone on the planet hates ARod, and you got shit on for it on that thread, and now you're only on this thread because I am posting on it.

Yeah, you have issues. And you're apparently from SI. Color me shocked.
Can't react either way yet  
Sy'56 : 8/21/2016 4:45 pm : link
I know its tough...but the black and white just isn't there in preseason. It never is.

Has the OL looked sub=par? Sure. But too many factors exist in preseason that can't let anyone decide if this is a solid-enough group or not.

I think Flowers ultimately ends up on the right side within his rookie contract, but he deserves the year to prove what he can do with two healthy ankles. Pugh and Richburg are more than good enough at LG and C. The question has been and still is the RG/RT combo. Both guys would likely be looked past by more than half the league if they were cut loose tomorrow. There is just one young talent behind them note talking about in Hart, and even he still appears not ready.

Cuts are coming...but is it wise to add a piece so close to the season and depend on him to start? There IS value chemistry among the OL...whether the talent is there or not.

To answer the question...what would I have done different? I liked Spencer Drango in round 5 this year...although RB Paul Perkins could end up being an important piece THIS year. Drango is currently the 6th OL/blocking TE for Cleveland and may win the starting RT job. He has had a very good 2 first weeks of preseason. Free agency wise...easy to say we should have bought the top FAs...but I take defensive signings over OL signings every day of the week.
Thanks Sy. Good post.  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 4:48 pm : link
.
There is a calculation here,  
oldog : 8/21/2016 4:52 pm : link
a calculated risk, OL depth can be acquired for less $$ after cuts than skill players or top defense. Second guess this calculation at your peril. But, if you're right, go for the I told you so. Problem is your posturing and posing will be missed in the traffic.
Tunsil has already been moved inside..  
Modus Operandi : 8/21/2016 4:55 pm : link
And had question marks about not only his character but also his work ethic. In any event, it's unlikely he'd be starting at OT for us anyhow. Other OL drafted in the same crop as Flowers have had issues. Open your eyes.

Cant comment on the rest of your tripe. I make it a point to ignore anything that starts off with, "and bro.."
RE: Tunsil has already been moved inside..  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13080431 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
And had question marks about not only his character but also his work ethic. In any event, it's unlikely he'd be starting at OT for us anyhow. Other OL drafted in the same crop as Flowers have had issues. Open your eyes.

Cant comment on the rest of your tripe. I make it a point to ignore anything that starts off with, "and bro.."


Oh no, a guy who follows me around on an internet message board and throws temper tantrums doesn't want to read my posts, even though he keeps quoting and responding to me.

Whatever will I do..
RE: RE: Poor way to start a thread  
Overseer : 8/21/2016 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13080413 drkenneth said:
Quote:
You're all over the place here:

"You know that with even decent pass protection he and your star WR are going to score points."

-Did they not do that last year? Or was the defense historically bad?

"Not necessarily bad signings since the D was sensationally awful in 2015."

-Saying the signings on D were ""Not necessarily bad signings" is the equivalent of saying it's not a bad idea to grab a fire extinguisher when a fire breaks out.

" But the least bad course IMV would have been to sign Snacks to secure the Run D, hope that JPP bounces back (likely), and hope that Odighizuwa can start. Then dump the Vernon/Jenkins - or at least the Jenkins - money into the FAs, like Okung, mentioned above."

-You use the word "hope" twice here. That's your strategy?

You rather spend $$ on a LT who has never played a 16 game season? Then "hope" for the best on defense?

The Giants are a bad football team...of course you have to hope some of your bets are going to pay off. Betting on JPP, for instance, is not a huge leap. I praised the Snacks signing. Fine with Vernon. So, no, I'm not just crossing my fingers on the defense. Action was warranted.

Here's your problem: you're acting like anyone is pretending there's an ideal. There's not. This is a bad football team with 2, maybe 3, great players and a 4th with half a hand. JAGs everywhere. And so much of the problem goes back years. You gamble with what you think the less bad course might be. Okung/Clady ideal? Nope. But there isn't an ideal and no one without a time machine is claiming as much.

Understanding that, and eschewing the snarky/dismissive tone in your OP, is recipe for a better thread.
Imo the release of Schwartz & Beatty was done in a vacuum without  
Watson : 8/21/2016 5:19 pm : link
consideration of FA replacement availability. I would have released Beatty since he couldn't pass his physical. Wouldn't have waited (been there before) and he doesn't have position flexibility. Would have restructured Schwartz (earns back $$$ based on playing time). Did not seem any attempt was made. Schwartz seemed genuinely surprised he was cut.

So prior to FA and the draft, you would have Schwartz completing with Newhouse for ROT and Jerry competing with Hart for ROG (think ROG better fit for Hart). Expectation/hope would be Schwartz and Hart winning out leaving you with two decent back-ups. Sure Schwartz has an injury history, but Okung or Clady's any better regarding injury? This wouldn't have prevented signing another OT; Schwartz competes for ROG instead.

It's clear NYG wanted to keep Flowers at LOT but I get the impression they are not 100% sure this is really his future. Imo, this was NYG dilemma. How do you make a long term commitment to another ROT if this is really Flowers best spot?




RE: RE: RE: Poor way to start a thread  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 5:24 pm : link
In comment 13080437 Overseer said:
Quote:
In comment 13080413 drkenneth said:


Quote:


You're all over the place here:

"You know that with even decent pass protection he and your star WR are going to score points."

-Did they not do that last year? Or was the defense historically bad?

"Not necessarily bad signings since the D was sensationally awful in 2015."

-Saying the signings on D were ""Not necessarily bad signings" is the equivalent of saying it's not a bad idea to grab a fire extinguisher when a fire breaks out.

" But the least bad course IMV would have been to sign Snacks to secure the Run D, hope that JPP bounces back (likely), and hope that Odighizuwa can start. Then dump the Vernon/Jenkins - or at least the Jenkins - money into the FAs, like Okung, mentioned above."

-You use the word "hope" twice here. That's your strategy?

You rather spend $$ on a LT who has never played a 16 game season? Then "hope" for the best on defense?


The Giants are a bad football team...of course you have to hope some of your bets are going to pay off. Betting on JPP, for instance, is not a huge leap. I praised the Snacks signing. Fine with Vernon. So, no, I'm not just crossing my fingers on the defense. Action was warranted.

Here's your problem: you're acting like anyone is pretending there's an ideal. There's not. This is a bad football team with 2, maybe 3, great players and a 4th with half a hand. JAGs everywhere. And so much of the problem goes back years. You gamble with what you think the less bad course might be. Okung/Clady ideal? Nope. But there isn't an ideal and no one without a time machine is claiming as much.

Understanding that, and eschewing the snarky/dismissive tone in your OP, is recipe for a better thread.


How many "great" players does the average NFL team have? 1? 2? 8? 10?

The defense is way better than it was a year ago. You can't have everything.

I just have a more big picture view than you. I don't think this is the dumpster fire BBI makes it out to be.

BBI's (and fans in general) have a hard time understanding that it isn't 1986 anymore. There is no such thing as "depth". Teams don't have tons of "great" players. There are no complete teams.
Overseer  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/21/2016 5:50 pm : link
The Giants are not a bad team. Do you expect pro bowlers at every position?
Agree about the defense  
Overseer : 8/21/2016 5:50 pm : link
I love the Snacks signing, like the Vernon one (tempered due to level of money), dislike Jenkins.

True enough about depth. I strongly support the cap and understand the limitations it necessarily instills. You indeed have to choose & prioritize. With a 35 y/o, immobile QB, IMV that should mean the LT virtually above all. Maybe the coaches are seeing something we are not in Flowers or have a backup plan. Vet LT & kicking Flowers over to RT to develop seems logical to me, but they obviously have different expectations.

At the very least they must be working on how to get some TE blocking help. LD is all but gone.
Giants had too many holes  
JohnVB : 8/21/2016 5:52 pm : link
I've been a proponent of addressing the OL but FA and the draft didn't unfold the way the Giants needed it to get value at OL.

The FA OL class was pretty weak with a lot of injury issues with the players. That's exactly what the Giants didn't need given their track record with injuries. Sure they could've overpaid for guys like Penn or Okung, but what position would that have put the team in down the road? Do we lose the ability to re-sign a core player? Would the FA even stay healthy to justify the investment?

The draft was pretty top heavy with OL talent and the Giants didn't have an opportunity to get value at the position with any of their picks. You can argue a late rounder here or there should've been the guy but we've been down that road many times and they haven't panned out.

The bottom line is the Giants had too many holes to fill in one offseason but did the best they could to improve the team with value in the draft and playmakers at Impact positions in FA. The plan seems pretty obvious and sensible but it just takes time. Hopefully some competition shakes loose the last round of cuts that can give us some depth and push for a starting role.
No one is exepcting 'great depth', though.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 5:53 pm : link
I mean there is a huge gap between 'great depth' and what our depth is right now. I think most would settle for serviceable depth, which isn't really what we have right now. Our backup OLine have been going up against back DLinemen these past two weeks, and they have had big problems with keeping the QB upright and run-blocking. That is not serviceable, nevermind 'great,' which no one is asking for or expecting.
RE: Question..  
David in LA : 8/21/2016 6:23 pm : link
In comment 13080258 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Will there ever be a BBI thread in which Dave in Hoboken doesn't act like a passive aggressive 13 year old?


At least he's doing it without homophobic comments, that's a refreshing start for him.
Oh my bad,  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 6:27 pm : link
this is my real stalker. Can't even imagine living a life, where you are apparently over the age of 15, and actively stalking people out on a football message board.
Don't flatter yourself pal  
David in LA : 8/21/2016 6:34 pm : link
your posts are just so boorish for the most part, you stick out as a dumb ass. You're in there with some great company.
You should talk..  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/21/2016 6:35 pm : link
If only everyone can be as brilliant and witty as yourself.
I wanted Joe Barksdale in Free Agency  
sjnyfan : 8/21/2016 7:10 pm : link
27 years old and has started 45 games the past three seasons including not missing a game for the past two straight. Hell I wanted him after the 2014 season when he signed with San Diego for a 1 year prove it deal. Instead he re-signed with the Chargers this offseason for four years, $22M. That's incredibly affordable for a guy who has experience on both sides of the O line, durable and entering his prime. We could have paid that and then some still.

I think the Giants draft was positive overall but there were lineman who I would've taken in the middle to late rounds. I think they would've won the starting job over Jerry and Newhouse by the start of week 1 too. Kyle Murphy, Joe Thuney, Isaac Seumalo, Graham Glasgow, Alex Lewis, Halapoulivaati Vaitai to name a few were O-lineman I liked at draft time.
#1 improve pre draft security  
Paulie Walnuts : 8/21/2016 7:21 pm : link
the last few drafts, the whole world knew who we wanted and jumped in front of us and we got fooked
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 8/21/2016 7:22 pm : link
In comment 13080355 j_rud said:
Quote:
In comment 13080278 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I'm not going to go nuts over a couple preseason games, but I was worried back in April about the direction of the team. Specifically, the reactive nature of the free agency acquisitions signifies a lack of an overall plan.

My top concern entering the off-season was depth at wide receiver and offensive line. The strength of this team is the offense, and little was done to reinforce that side of the ball. This team as a Beckham knee sprain away from major problems.

The plan seems to continue to be to patch holes rather than reinforce strengths.




There's a difference between not having "an overall plan" and not following the plan You want. You also characterize the FA signings as patching holes, but what would signing a FA OL have been?

Man, it must get lonely being the smartest guy in the room all the time...


Then what is the plan? From the outside it looks like "Defense sucks, so let's overspend on FA defensive players." Meanwhile, the side of the ball that carries the team is paper thin at WR and OL. How does that happen in an offseason where the team had huge cap space?

I've been a consistent Reese backer when a lot of people were calling for his head to roll last year, but the "let's patch holes in the hopes of building a 10-6 team that Eli can carry to another Super Bowl" approach is getting old.
.  
Go Terps : 8/21/2016 7:26 pm : link
The two best players on this team by miles are offensive players: Eli and Beckham. What was done this offseason to make their jobs easier? The WR spots opposite Beckham are being entrusted to a rookie and a guy that hasn't played in two years, and whose health was never a certainty.

And everyone knew the OL could be divided into two parts: three promising players on the left side and two questions on the right. Nothing done.
RE: .  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 7:31 pm : link
In comment 13080554 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The two best players on this team by miles are offensive players: Eli and Beckham. What was done this offseason to make their jobs easier? The WR spots opposite Beckham are being entrusted to a rookie and a guy that hasn't played in two years, and whose health was never a certainty.

And everyone knew the OL could be divided into two parts: three promising players on the left side and two questions on the right. Nothing done.
Fair post. I still think we could see a "trade" tomorrow for an OL'men. Not that it will happen but that Reese knows we need help. But there isn't much we can likely do right now except play with the guys we have.

I think the starting OL will be fine. I also think we can survive an injury to OG but if we lose Richburg, Flowers or Newhouse we are likely in trouble and that is sad. Now, will the Giants use their TE's to block more this year? I don't know. But I do like TE Will Tye and FB / HBack W. Johnson on the field at the same time, most of the time.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 7:33 pm : link
The defense was not just bad last year, it was historically bad. How could you possibly be ok with a GM going into this offseason and not immediately addressing that?

You have to be able to play defense to win a Super Bowl. It's a pretty common blueprint. We just watched Denver do it last year with Peyton's corpse.

I most certainly would have liked to have seen another OL addition but the strategy of neglecting the defense to try and build a top 5 offense would be a terrible one that would get this team nowhere. We'd be watching repeats of the game we just played in the Superdome last year every other week.

You have a better chance of winning football games in this league with an average-above average defense and a slightly above average offense than you do with an elite offense and horrendous defense.
RE: RE: RE: .  
j_rud : 8/21/2016 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13080551 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13080355 j_rud said:


Quote:


In comment 13080278 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I'm not going to go nuts over a couple preseason games, but I was worried back in April about the direction of the team. Specifically, the reactive nature of the free agency acquisitions signifies a lack of an overall plan.

My top concern entering the off-season was depth at wide receiver and offensive line. The strength of this team is the offense, and little was done to reinforce that side of the ball. This team as a Beckham knee sprain away from major problems.

The plan seems to continue to be to patch holes rather than reinforce strengths.




There's a difference between not having "an overall plan" and not following the plan You want. You also characterize the FA signings as patching holes, but what would signing a FA OL have been?

Man, it must get lonely being the smartest guy in the room all the time...



Then what is the plan? From the outside it looks like "Defense sucks, so let's overspend on FA defensive players." Meanwhile, the side of the ball that carries the team is paper thin at WR and OL. How does that happen in an offseason where the team had huge cap space?

I've been a consistent Reese backer when a lot of people were calling for his head to roll last year, but the "let's patch holes in the hopes of building a 10-6 team that Eli can carry to another Super Bowl" approach is getting old.


The plan was pretty obvious, I should think. They won two titles with an elite pass rush and a solid secondary. They wanted to get the pass rush back and add talent to the secondary. They tried to bring in a FA OL and it didn't work out. I agree that an OL should have been added but you act like they didn't even try. They likely felt WR wasn't as big a need, for better or worse. We'll see.

And by is it that signings you want are part of a plan while signings you don't endorse are "just filling holes". What would signing an OL or WR be but filling a hole? You're just playing a semantics game that fits your position on the subject that quite frankly is tired hat from you.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 7:34 pm : link
Also, the defensive additions were not "hole patchers". They are rookies like Apple and Thompson as well as young, ascending FA's such as Vernon, Harrison and Jenkins. These are long-term players not 1 year solutions.
As GM  
pjcas18 : 8/21/2016 7:40 pm : link
you have to question a couple things Reese has done:

1. Pugh. At pick 19, the Giants envisioned Pugh would be a tackle. he struggled at RT and is now a guard and that started the ball rolling downhill.

2. Flowers. Obviously it's early in his career and he could flourish, but it looks like he's going to struggle at LT and eventually have to be moved.

these two are the last two first round OL the Giants have taken since Luke Petitout, so 3 1st round OL in 17 years ago.

and I don't think they're playing like first round picks (yet), Pugh has been good at guard, but it's not the Giants MO (or other teams) to take a guard at 19.

So if those two panned out, the problem would be lessened, Flowers would be entrenched at LT, Pugh would be RT, and Richburg an elite OC.

signing two guards would have been a lot easier.

Second problem though isn't necessarily with the GM, it's with the coaching staff. There has been almost no OL development from the picks, so I guess you could argue it's on Reese too, but there is no Seubert, Diehl, etc. where the team didn't need to use a premium pick but still got starter quality.

Look around the NFL it's rare to see a line like Dallas or the recent SF line (2011 - 2013) with multiple premium picks.

Usually you see a premium pick or 2, but mostly development lineman.

So I don't know if any of us know enough to say why the Giants project linemen all fail, but that's definitely contributed to why the Giants OL is a liability right now.

And don't tell me they played well because the offense was #10 or whatever.

Watch the games. Eli was under pressure far too much, the OL struggled in the run game, and they didn't set the tone like the 2007 - 2011 lines.
RE: .  
SGMen : 8/21/2016 7:41 pm : link
In comment 13080560 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The defense was not just bad last year, it was historically bad. How could you possibly be ok with a GM going into this offseason and not immediately addressing that?

You have to be able to play defense to win a Super Bowl. It's a pretty common blueprint. We just watched Denver do it last year with Peyton's corpse.

I most certainly would have liked to have seen another OL addition but the strategy of neglecting the defense to try and build a top 5 offense would be a terrible one that would get this team nowhere. We'd be watching repeats of the game we just played in the Superdome last year every other week.

You have a better chance of winning football games in this league with an average-above average defense and a slightly above average offense than you do with an elite offense and horrendous defense.
I think of Dallas here: they have kept their OL, QB Romo, WR Bryant, TE Witten and now drafted rookied RB Elliott. They are building up their offense at the expense of their defense. Granted, they had suspensions with Gregory, Lawrence and McLain but their defense is going to give up a lot of yards.

Our defense will be superb.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 7:48 pm : link
In comment 13080571 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13080560 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The defense was not just bad last year, it was historically bad. How could you possibly be ok with a GM going into this offseason and not immediately addressing that?

You have to be able to play defense to win a Super Bowl. It's a pretty common blueprint. We just watched Denver do it last year with Peyton's corpse.

I most certainly would have liked to have seen another OL addition but the strategy of neglecting the defense to try and build a top 5 offense would be a terrible one that would get this team nowhere. We'd be watching repeats of the game we just played in the Superdome last year every other week.

You have a better chance of winning football games in this league with an average-above average defense and a slightly above average offense than you do with an elite offense and horrendous defense.

I think of Dallas here: they have kept their OL, QB Romo, WR Bryant, TE Witten and now drafted rookied RB Elliott. They are building up their offense at the expense of their defense. Granted, they had suspensions with Gregory, Lawrence and McLain but their defense is going to give up a lot of yards.

Our defense will be superb.


Their defense isn't good but it's nothing like what we rolled out there last season.
Our defense will be superb?  
Go Terps : 8/21/2016 7:49 pm : link
There are no superb players on it.

I also wouldn't use 2007 or 2011 as any sort of template. Neither of those teams was great, and in 2011 the defense flat out sucked. I agree though that that appears to be the model being pursued, and that's probably why the Giants only won 12 games once in the entire Coughlin era despite having the best quarterback in the history of the team - a guy who never misses a game.

We get the best pass rusher and run stuffer available  
David in LA : 8/21/2016 7:54 pm : link
and they're both under 30 and ascending players, how is that patching a hole? I swear Go Terps' dream team consists of a bunch of cost controlled choir boys.
RE: Our defense will be superb?  
BillT : 8/21/2016 8:01 pm : link
In comment 13080580 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There are no superb players on it.


WTF? Vernon, Harrison, JPP, DRC, Hankins, Jenkins, I think Collins is showing he's going to be a top SS, our FS is impressing as a rookie, Kennard. This defense has more talent than any in the division, easily. You want to be down on the OL, fine. Say all you want, no arguments. The defense doesn't have talent. You're clueless.
RE: #1 improve pre draft security  
BillT : 8/21/2016 8:06 pm : link
In comment 13080550 Paulie Walnuts said:
Quote:
the last few drafts, the whole world knew who we wanted and jumped in front of us and we got fooked

Complete BS. If you really think they were taking Floyd, you aren't paying attention very closely.
Superb? This optimism is confounding  
Overseer : 8/21/2016 8:07 pm : link
I'm 100% in "believe it when I see it" mode.

This team got embarrassed - not beaten - embarrassed by their biggest rival 2 years in a row in crucial prime time games. They're 1-5 vs Philly since 2013 with the 1 win coming vs Matt Barkley. They're probably not going back to the post-season if they can't even beat the Eagles.

One of the truest football cliches is "bad teams find ways to lose" and I'm not sure if any team exemplifies that more in recent years than the Giants. It's at times uncanny, like week 1 vs Dallas and week 10 vs New England.

The X factor that the Giants no doubt continually have front & center in their minds is Manning's age. 4 more years if they're lucky. No doubt they're gambling that once he's in the post-season...he, Beckham, and the Dline can win some games in January. Part of the reason I'm sure for the monster FA contracts.

That's if they can make the playoffs, belying what we've witnessed as of late.
RE: Superb? This optimism is confounding  
BillT : 8/21/2016 8:27 pm : link
In comment 13080596 Overseer said:
Quote:
I'm 100% in "believe it when I see it" mode.

This team got embarrassed - not beaten - embarrassed by their biggest rival 2 years in a row in crucial prime time games. They're 1-5 vs Philly since 2013 with the 1 win coming vs Matt Barkley. They're probably not going back to the post-season if they can't even beat the Eagles.

You mean the same teams that were the most injured teams in the NFL for those 3 years on top of having already lost TT and Phillips and Nicks and Wilson and others. Those teams were 1-5 vs Philly. Shocked.
Terps  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/21/2016 8:28 pm : link
Do you mean Jerry didn't give you the plan?
Easy  
Joey in VA : 8/21/2016 8:33 pm : link
Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job. Get used to this team being half assed somewhere until we get an actual evaluator of talent filling out the roster. EVERY SINGLE backup OL we have signed since Dave left has sucked hairy nuts. In fact, with the exception of Snacks, OV and Jenkins every free agent we have signed has been a huge fucking disaster save maybe Rashad Jennings who is good for 4 games a year.

We have a HUGE talent evaluation problem on the NFL level. We seemed to have fixed it in regards to the draft but our pro personnel is fucking abysmal.
RE: Easy  
BillT : 8/21/2016 8:40 pm : link
In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job.
"Chris Mara joined the Giants as Vice President of Player Evaluation on July 29, 2003. He was promoted to Senior Vice President of Player Personnel in 2011." (Giants.com) Gettleman left in 2013. He worked for Chris Mara.
RE: Easy  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 8:43 pm : link
In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job. ood for 4 games a year.

.


+1

Carolina loses their #1 receiver and goes to the Super Bowl b/c of their depth of talent.
RE: RE: Easy  
Joey in VA : 8/21/2016 8:44 pm : link
In comment 13080611 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job.

"Chris Mara joined the Giants as Vice President of Player Evaluation on July 29, 2003. He was promoted to Senior Vice President of Player Personnel in 2011." (Giants.com) Gettleman left in 2013. He worked for Chris Mara.
And Gettleman's team went 15-1 and has a bright future and we sign asswipes on the OL who can't block anyone in the NFL. Wonderful stuff. He worked for Chris Mara....I worked for several idiots who I out earn and have much higher positions than now because I earned it and was good and they sucked, just like Chris Mara.
RE: RE: Easy  
Big Blue '56 : 8/21/2016 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13080620 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job. ood for 4 games a year.

.



+1

Carolina loses their #1 receiver and goes to the Super Bowl b/c of their depth of talent.


They went to the SB with one of the best Ds in the NFL. If we had that D, we would have vied for it all...
So now we have a "huge" talent acquisition problem?  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 8:54 pm : link
Sigh.
RE: RE: RE: Easy  
BillT : 8/21/2016 9:09 pm : link
In comment 13080621 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13080611 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job.

"Chris Mara joined the Giants as Vice President of Player Evaluation on July 29, 2003. He was promoted to Senior Vice President of Player Personnel in 2011." (Giants.com) Gettleman left in 2013. He worked for Chris Mara.

And Gettleman's team went 15-1 and has a bright future and we sign asswipes on the OL who can't block anyone in the NFL. Wonderful stuff. He worked for Chris Mara....I worked for several idiots who I out earn and have much higher positions than now because I earned it and was good and they sucked, just like Chris Mara.

You keep missing the point. Mara didn't replace Gettleman nor did he hire who replaced him. We won two SB with Chris Mara in his job. He seemed to do ok then.
RE: So now we have a  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 9:12 pm : link
In comment 13080635 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Sigh.


Nah, 19 wins over three years indicates the team is loaded.
So now loss of Gettlemen is issue?  
drkenneth : 8/21/2016 9:31 pm : link
Really?
RE: Oh and mrvax  
mrvax : 8/21/2016 9:35 pm : link
In comment 13080172 BillT said:
Quote:
As drkenneth said what OL would you have signed. There is the reality of what's available. Schwatz's brother was the only fit I remembered and I'm not sure that was realistic given his preferences.


Here's a link to guys that could have been considered.

Linky - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Oh and mrvax  
BillT : 8/21/2016 10:05 pm : link
In comment 13080690 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 13080172 BillT said:


Quote:


As drkenneth said what OL would you have signed. There is the reality of what's available. Schwatz's brother was the only fit I remembered and I'm not sure that was realistic given his preferences.



Here's a link to guys that could have been considered. Linky - ( New Window )

And it's a pretty limited list. Glenn stayed put for 13m/per and Osemele got 12m/per from Oakland. Who weren't you going to sign to get one of them or even a Beachum or Schwartz.
RE: RE: Easy  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 10:09 pm : link
In comment 13080620 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080607 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Once Gettleman left, I'd have found myself a good Pro Personnel guy and not hired Chris fucking Mara who absolutely sucks at his job. ood for 4 games a year.

.



+1

Carolina loses their #1 receiver and goes to the Super Bowl b/c of their depth of talent.


The majority of the players who were vital in the Panthers success last year had nothing to do with Gettleman. They were there before he arrived.
Com'on  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 10:35 pm : link
He's had good drafts, signed good free agents, convinced players to stay and play for less, etc
Link - ( New Window )
.  
arcarsenal : 8/21/2016 10:43 pm : link
Convincing players to play for less has nothing to do with evaluating talent.

When you think about the players who had the most to do with the Panthers success last year, who do you think of? Newton, Olsen, Kuechly, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kalil, Stewart, Johnson... all of those players were there before Gettleman arrived.

Not saying he hasn't done a good job there or had nothing to do with their success last year but the vast majority of their impact players who had the most to do with their run last year were from the prior regime. There are 6 pro bowl/all-pro players on that list. That's a lot of talent and Gettleman had nothing to do with them being in Carolina.
The GIANTS Director of Pro Personnel is Ken Sternfeld  
Larry in Pencilvania : 8/21/2016 10:49 pm : link
He was assistant director to Gettleman. Mara Mara is his boss and has an extensive resume as a scout with the Giants and as an independent. What be actually does now who knows
Ealy and company  
Giants2012 : 8/21/2016 10:58 pm : link
have been solid draft picks, etc

He's been great and the loss of his football mind in the Giants war room had been felt. Mara hated losing him and he's made a huge impact in Carolina.
Reese and the FO did great these last three years IMO  
est1986 : 8/22/2016 12:31 am : link
But I would have took Gurley in a heartbeat. And it's hard to say wether I would have took Tunsil considering the 'mask pick' on draft night but if we took him I would have been pumped, he's a better prospect than Flowers. And with Gurley we wouldn't need Perkins, take Sy'56's guy Drango in the 5th or send that pick to Denver for Clady or get that deal for Okung done. But how can you say anything negative about Reese since nailing that 2014 1st round pick, that alone gives him another year or two of praise.
2 things  
hitdog42 : 8/22/2016 6:36 am : link
1) if tunsil isn't ripping bong hits then Conklin may be a giant- so they certainly had ol on their first round radar

2) whomever said resign the unicorn at te is spot on- our oline and run game has been garbage since the departure of a te that was a threat and a competent ( in mb case excellent) blocker. Teams don't scheme for the Giants te position they exploit it- and that kills our tackles who are either young or poor.
RE: 2 things  
Reb8thVA : 8/22/2016 7:07 am : link
In comment 13080841 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
1) if tunsil isn't ripping bong hits then Conklin may be a giant- so they certainly had ol on their first round radar

2) whomever said resign the unicorn at te is spot on- our oline and run game has been garbage since the departure of a te that was a threat and a competent ( in mb case excellent) blocker. Teams don't scheme for the Giants te position they exploit it- and that kills our tackles who are either young or poor.


Hitdog, you were spot on with all your info about the Giants FA plans. Was there any talk of addressing the OL in the first week? If I remember correctly, the focus was all on he defensive side, suggesting that there was a conscious plan that what we had on the OL was good enough.
I think in the long term, the OL will likely be good enoughq  
SGMen : 8/22/2016 7:11 am : link
The defense clearly had to be addressed.

Reb8thVA, we met at a Giants game with HopeJ a decade or so ago didn't we?
Yes, I believe so....  
Reb8thVA : 8/22/2016 7:13 am : link
I think around 2008 if I am not mistaken.
RE: Yes, I believe so....  
SGMen : 8/22/2016 7:19 am : link
In comment 13080852 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
I think around 2008 if I am not mistaken.
Cool. I just wanted to make sure I had the right person. If I buy tickets in a group again, I'll be sure to invite you. My brother and I and Kim S remember you. We met a lot of great folks that day but I truthfully lost touch.
OL  
stretch234 : 8/22/2016 7:28 am : link
Osemele got 60M to play G and while he is a good player, is not worth top 2 guard money

LT's who are available do not sign contracts to play RT.

Who was the long list of RT available

If we bitch about keeping players who are hurt, why would you keep Beatty and Schwartz. Beatty only got cleared a month ago or so. Schwartz is beat up - big guys with leg/foot injuries do not get healthier as they age

NFL OL depth is generally late round picks and UDFA - you have to make it work. NE got to the AFC Championship game with street FA on the OL. Coaches have to develop depth at some point

OL are hard to find - very few teams can field 5 guys. Watch the Packers and see how Rodgers is under duress every snap. Ben gets hit a ton behind his OL



The Giants were 13th and 6th in scoring the past two seasons...  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2016 7:41 am : link
while simultaneously having a god awful offensive line.

Conversely, they are trending the opposite direction on defense, going from 22nd in 2014 to 32nd in '15.

It's true that the defense needed to be addressed, because IMO it was the defense that was directly costing them games. How many times over the past two years did the offense, despite it's inability to run and pass protect, go down and score the go ahead TD in with 2 minutes to play only to let the other team march 80 yards in two minutes to win the game? Too many.

That said, the offensive line began to decline in 2009. Reese's inability to build a quality offensive line now going on 7 years should cost him his job, because it already cost Tom Coughlin his. And I've been saying that for 3 years, now. He failed again (in regards to the line).
I posted above  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 8:15 am : link
very clearly why the OL has problems.

Two questionable personnel decisions. Pugh at 19 (to be a guard) and Flowers (so far).

If those two panned out at their draft spot, you'd have RT and LT solidified. Richburg was a great pick at OC. Finding guards is a lot easier and cost-effective than finding tackles.

Second, is the fact there have been zero OL developed by the Giants coaches and it's hard to know if that is due to FO draft picks/UDFA signings or coaching since you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, but at the same time none, zero of the non-premium (1st 3 rounds - and in the Giants case it could be first 2 round) have provided ANY value.

I have done this exercise before. Just look at the 12 playoff teams each year and catalog where the OL came from. There are far more late round picks, UDFA's and UFA's than there are premium draft picks playing on their same team. It's too expensive and normally risky to build your line that way.

Very few exceptions, Dallas and maybe SF from their competitive years. It's risky because it means taking resources from other areas of the roster and using them only on OL.
Britt  
stretch234 : 8/22/2016 8:36 am : link
Reese now has 2 - 1sts and a 2nd on the line from drafts. He signed the best FA G who got hurt. His longer term LT got hurt.

The question is why can 31 other teams develop OL and plug them in and get by, but this team cant. The coaches finally were held accountable

The Pats went to the AFC Championship game with 3 street FA playing the interior.

Sea has issues protecting the passer, GB can't pass block, Chi can't, DET, TB, NO, ATL, Phi, Was. There are so few teams that can pass protect consistently

If Reese had just looked at BBI, he would have been  
Jimmy Googs : 8/22/2016 8:40 am : link
able to land Anthony Davis...
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2016 9:01 am : link
In comment 13080897 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Reese now has 2 - 1sts and a 2nd on the line from drafts. He signed the best FA G who got hurt. His longer term LT got hurt.

The question is why can 31 other teams develop OL and plug them in and get by, but this team cant. The coaches finally were held accountable

The Pats went to the AFC Championship game with 3 street FA playing the interior.

Sea has issues protecting the passer, GB can't pass block, Chi can't, DET, TB, NO, ATL, Phi, Was. There are so few teams that can pass protect consistently


Pat Flaherty coached a pretty strong offensive line between 2004 and 2011, even as it began to decline in 2009. To me, it was clear as day that as Diehl, Snee, Seubert, and O'hara began to decline, they weren't replaced.

Not for lack of trying. Will Beatty was a 2nd round pick. Didn't pan out. Baas was a high dollar FA, didn't pan out. It was these whifs in the draft and FA that directly led to our problem. Do you think Flaherty just automatically forgot how to coach guys up after 2008? The physical decline of the o-line was obvious and happened right in front of our eyes. I find it baffling that people want to blame the coaches for that. The popular argument here seemed to be that Coughlin, was as much if not more responsible for the choices on the O-line as Reese. I'm not sure why, if Reese doesn't choose the players then what does he do? Either way, Coughlin AND Flaherty are gone now, and Reese has 2 1sts and a 2nd, as you stated, invested in the O-line. If they suck again this year, which it's looking like they might, who gets the blame?

Let's look at the resume of our current guy:

Quote:
Forty-year coaching veteran Mike Solari is in his 28th season in the NFL and his first as the Giants’ offensive line coach. A line coach for most of his career, Solari has also coached tight ends and special teams, and been an offensive coordinator.

In Solari’s 17 seasons serving as an NFL team’s primary offensive line coach, his players combined for 25 Pro Bowl appearances and at least one of his players was selected to the Pro Bowl in 15 of those seasons.


If the line doesn't improve this year, are we going to put that on him?
And in regards to the op...  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2016 9:23 am : link
I don't have the solution or the answer. My opinion is based on the fact that I feel that there has been more than enough time to address the ailing line since 2009, and it does not appear to be getting better.
RE: And in regards to the op...  
BrettNYG10 : 8/22/2016 9:30 am : link
In comment 13080952 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't have the solution or the answer. My opinion is based on the fact that I feel that there has been more than enough time to address the ailing line since 2009, and it does not appear to be getting better.


I agree - and as you posted, it's not like they ignored it. They just whiffed. I think they got it right with Richburg and Pugh. Flowers is TBD (he flashed enough last year prior to his injury that I'm hopeful. But it's been years now. Might be a slight exaggeration, but if Flowers turns out to be a bad pick it may lead to Reese's firing here.

I do wonder whether the changes in training camp/practice have impaired the coaches ability to teach relatively raw players like Flowers, though.
RE: .  
Greg from LI : 8/22/2016 9:36 am : link
In comment 13080761 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
When you think about the players who had the most to do with the Panthers success last year, who do you think of? Newton, Olsen, Kuechly, Thomas Davis, Norman, Kalil, Stewart, Johnson... all of those players were there before Gettleman arrived.


Yup. Not to knock Gettleman, but claiming that he built a 15-1 team is more than a bit disingenuous. That team was dominated by talent he inherited.
RE: RE: And in regards to the op...  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 9:37 am : link
In comment 13080957 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 13080952 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't have the solution or the answer. My opinion is based on the fact that I feel that there has been more than enough time to address the ailing line since 2009, and it does not appear to be getting better.



I agree - and as you posted, it's not like they ignored it. They just whiffed. I think they got it right with Richburg and Pugh. Flowers is TBD (he flashed enough last year prior to his injury that I'm hopeful. But it's been years now. Might be a slight exaggeration, but if Flowers turns out to be a bad pick it may lead to Reese's firing here.

I do wonder whether the changes in training camp/practice have impaired the coaches ability to teach relatively raw players like Flowers, though.


I wouldn't exactly say they "got it right" with Pugh. He might be a good guard, but he was drafted to be a tackle. he wanted to play LT the team envisioned him as a RT. And that's mostly where he played initially.

He moved to guard not because Newhouse is so good you move Pugh for him, he moved because he struggled there and had enough versatility to play guard.

I think if you ask yourself if the Giants felt like Pugh would be a guard to they still take him at 19?

I'm not so sure they do. You have to go back 28 years to 1988 to the last time the Giants used a 1st round pick on a guard (Eric Moore). And in those 28 years I think they only even used a 2nd round pick on a guard once (Snee).
If I were GM..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 9:37 am : link
my first priority would be to try an upgrade the league's worst D, which is exactly what happened.

For the OL, I'm not sure what I'd do since evaluating line play is really tough as a fan. Telling you who I'd sign would just be an exercise in knowing names and basing it off of reputations others have graded.

what I would've done is continue to invest draft picks on the line like reese has done. About the only difference is that I'd have tried to bring in as many bodies as possible to compete for spots using a success in numbers type of model. But then again - that might take away from the plan to develop the talent they have. Not sure there is a right answer here and I'm not knowledgeable enough the OL players around the league to provide specific names.
RE: If I were GM..  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2016 9:40 am : link
In comment 13080971 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my first priority would be to try an upgrade the league's worst D, which is exactly what happened.

For the OL, I'm not sure what I'd do since evaluating line play is really tough as a fan. Telling you who I'd sign would just be an exercise in knowing names and basing it off of reputations others have graded.

what I would've done is continue to invest draft picks on the line like reese has done. About the only difference is that I'd have tried to bring in as many bodies as possible to compete for spots using a success in numbers type of model. But then again - that might take away from the plan to develop the talent they have. Not sure there is a right answer here and I'm not knowledgeable enough the OL players around the league to provide specific names.


Yeah, like I said in my first post on the subject, addressing the defense was the right move to win now, which is what we need.

The offense has improved from 13th to 6th in scoring the past two years, in spite of the state of flux on the offensive line.

It's not an excuse to not improve the line, but I understand why they went that direction.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 8/22/2016 9:41 am : link
pj, it depends on how good Pugh is at guard. I know B in ALB (who knows more about OL play than I do) thinks very highly of him. If Pugh turns into a Pro Bowler, it's a great pick. If he's only above average, then I agree.
RE: ....  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 9:47 am : link
In comment 13080977 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
pj, it depends on how good Pugh is at guard. I know B in ALB (who knows more about OL play than I do) thinks very highly of him. If Pugh turns into a Pro Bowler, it's a great pick. If he's only above average, then I agree.


I wasn't so much commenting on his merit as a guard, so much as value from the pick. It's just rare for the Giants to take a guard in the first round, and at 19, they probably hoped Pugh would be the right tackle of the future, not the guard of the future.

So, I like Pugh and think he's hopefully part of the line going forward, but if he was able to remain at RT I think the line would be in better shape.

that was my point, not that Pugh isn't good, only that he's not what the team envisioned when drafting him at 19.
Sure, that's fair.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/22/2016 9:50 am : link
I was a bit skeptical when I kept hearing about his versatility - it feels like when teams say that it means the guy's upside is limited.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 9:51 am : link
How could not addressing the defense even be an option? The unit wasn't just bad last year, it was all-time bad.

Reese's strategy this offseason made a lot of sense to me. He saw an offense that was pretty productive as it was, invested a 2nd rd pick on another young WR to pair with Beckham and brought in a few different OT's to try and add a player there. Unfortunately, the guys he brought in either went elsewhere or retired. Schwartz signed so quickly that I'm not sure we ever even got a chance to reach out.

The defense was so bad that he invested about 85% of our offseason resources into revamping the unit with rookies who are expected to step in and help from day 1 (Apple, Thompson) and ascending FA's who are in the middle of their best years or just hitting them now (Harrison, Vernon, Jenkins).. he also held onto JPP who looks primed to prove a lot of people wrong this year. Went a step further and added Leon Hall for CB depth.

The idea was to field a competitive defense this year that could actually get stops and help win football games while doing just enough to hope the offense could continue to be a top 10 point producing unit.

I 100% would have felt more comfortable if the OL had been better addressed but when you actually look at what the options were and what we tried to do, it's not exactly as if Reese was "asleep at the wheel"

You can also only do so much in one offseason. We've got to give this a little time. I think Solari will get this offensive line performing better as we go. Gotta give it a little time.
But in relative terms..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 9:51 am : link
if you get a steady starter at any position over several years from a round 1 pick, it is good value.

Sometimes you get a flash like Odell, sometimes you get a steady, productive player like Webster.
RE: But in relative terms..  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 9:54 am : link
In comment 13080993 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
if you get a steady starter at any position over several years from a round 1 pick, it is good value.

Sometimes you get a flash like Odell, sometimes you get a steady, productive player like Webster.


I agree, in general, but and I don't think it's a great analogy, but IMO drafting a tackle who winds up as a guard would be almost like drafting a starting RB who winds up as your starting FB.

If the FB is good, you don't think it's a bad pick and the better he plays the better the pick looks, but not the value you planned when picking the player.

anyway, it's semantics, I just think it had a domino effect, if Pugh was still the RT and excelling at RT the line would be in better shape.
RE: If I were GM..  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 9:57 am : link
In comment 13080971 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my first priority would be to try an upgrade the league's worst D, which is exactly what happened.

For the OL, I'm not sure what I'd do since evaluating line play is really tough as a fan. Telling you who I'd sign would just be an exercise in knowing names and basing it off of reputations others have graded.

what I would've done is continue to invest draft picks on the line like reese has done. About the only difference is that I'd have tried to bring in as many bodies as possible to compete for spots using a success in numbers type of model. But then again - that might take away from the plan to develop the talent they have. Not sure there is a right answer here and I'm not knowledgeable enough the OL players around the league to provide specific names.


Though I always look forward to my buddy Britt's well thought out, non knee-jerk opinions(a rarity here), I closely align with FMiC's post here.
The asleep at the wheel stuff is dumb.  
Britt in VA : 8/22/2016 9:58 am : link
Out of the options available, I'm not sure what he could have done different.

My concern isn't necessarily about this offseason, it's the cumulative product of the past four or five off seasons.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 10:03 am : link
I think mostly striking out on a couple of drafts can set a team back pretty far. I also think the OL rebuild took too long to start. We tried to milk too much out of the lines we won Championships with.

Reese does deserve some blame for both of those things but I thought he had a good offseason this year and did as much as he could to get this team back on track. I don't know how anyone could have watched the levels of embarrassing this defense was in 2015 and not have wanted significant assets spent on fixing it.
I would've signed a LT via UFA instead of signing Jenkins  
JonC : 8/22/2016 10:06 am : link
But, the reality was there was no clean LT to target in this respect. Overpaying Osemele to play OG wasn't a proper answer, and there was too many durability questions surrounding once great players like Clady and Okung.

When NYG was on the draft clock I was calling for Taylor Decker, but it's difficult to argue with grabbing the CB you felt was the best one in the draft.

The above highlights the moving parts in play, and when you factor in NYG is still playing catchup from multiple poor drafts, it's very difficult to fill every hole during each offseason.

There's definitely something going on inside NYG Central causing them to overvalue their own too often, and I'm not sold we're past the poor pro personnel decisions being made, as Joey pointed out.

RE: .  
BrettNYG10 : 8/22/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13081028 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I think mostly striking out on a couple of drafts can set a team back pretty far. I also think the OL rebuild took too long to start. We tried to milk too much out of the lines we won Championships with.

Reese does deserve some blame for both of those things but I thought he had a good offseason this year and did as much as he could to get this team back on track. I don't know how anyone could have watched the levels of embarrassing this defense was in 2015 and not have wanted significant assets spent on fixing it.


I think Reese did a bad job between 2010-2012 (yes, despite the Super Bowl), but a much better job in the 2014 and 2015 off-seasons. It usually takes 2-3 years for the work of a GM to shine through.

I wish we signed another OL, but I understand why Reese felt his high picks could make the line decent.
Gambling on the 2012 roster  
JonC : 8/22/2016 10:24 am : link
was a huge miscalculation, highlighted by the OL falling off a cliff. All compounded by the poor drafts piling up.
When the Giants drafted Pugh at #19 in the 2013 draft...  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 10:27 am : link
They were desperate for someone to play RT, having failed to address the position in free agency primarily because they didn't have the money/cap space to do so. With Fisher, Joeckel, Johnson, and Fluker gone, it's not that hard to see why they picked Pugh, even though most pundits projected him as a Guard in the pros (which is hardly an unusual thing), and even though they broke my heart by passing up Tyler Eifert.

It's also not that hard to see why they drafted Johnathan Hankins in the 2nd round. It looks like re-signing Linval Joseph was never in their plans - right or wrong - and they needed an infusion of youth to play alongside their aging, veteran DTs, Cullen Jenkins and Mike Patterson.

So, it's easy for me to say now, well, I would have drafted Eiftert in the first and, say, Terron Armstead or Menelik Watson, or David Bahktiari in the second, I can't really fault the Giants for going with Pugh and Hankins.

To me, the real tragedies of the 2013 draft were picking Damontre Moore in the third, and trading up for Ryan Nassib in the fourth.
Many good to great OLs  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 10:28 am : link
play well into their mid-30s..Some even longer..OL seem to really peak as they age in their 30s, imv..Had Snee not unexpectedly been hit with (virtual) career-ending injuries, he most likely would still be anchoring the right side at age 34 and few would be stressing over this..I bring this up because there's a lot of woulda, shoulda, couldas on the forum and yes, this is yet another one and no less salient imo
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 10:30 am : link
Yeah, the end of 2012 was when it became very clear that this team needed to be rebuilt in a few different spots but we tried to just patch some holes and keep going forward instead and we all know how that went.
RE: Gambling on the 2012 roster  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 10:46 am : link
In comment 13081079 JonC said:
Quote:
was a huge miscalculation, highlighted by the OL falling off a cliff. All compounded by the poor drafts piling up.


The failure to develop any mid-round OL draft picks was a killer. You would have hoped that even one of the Brewers, Mosleys, or Petruses (sic) of the world would have stuck, but that was obviously not the case. Add to that the inability of the free agent OLs that we did sign to stay healthy, like Baas and Schwartz, and we're left with Jerry and Newhouse at RG and RT, respectively.
Giants also signed DRC and Dwayne Harris  
djm : 8/22/2016 10:47 am : link
both good to great signings. Matter of fact, DRC might be the best FA signing the Giants ever made it's just a shame the guy's talents haven't been appreciated more due to the team's poor performance.

I'm going to wait until the next preseason game before I make blanket doom and gloom statements. I think 3 pre-season games is more than enough time to formulate a concrete opinion on the state of this franchise. God help everyone if they don't scrimmage well next week. Heads will fucking roll.
RE: Many good to great OLs  
JonC : 8/22/2016 10:48 am : link
In comment 13081091 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
play well into their mid-30s..Some even longer..OL seem to really peak as they age in their 30s, imv..Had Snee not unexpectedly been hit with (virtual) career-ending injuries, he most likely would still be anchoring the right side at age 34 and few would be stressing over this..I bring this up because there's a lot of woulda, shoulda, couldas on the forum and yes, this is yet another one and no less salient imo


BB, they banked on some aging players who had been battling injuries to find the fountain of youth. The guys had one run left in them, which resulted in a title, but pro's need to be able to identify when change is required.
can't deny the bad 3-4 year stretch (really 3)  
djm : 8/22/2016 10:59 am : link
last year was tough to take. If the Giants had just scratched and clawed their way to 9 wins I think the overall stink would be a lot easier to take. 3 straight losing years is pretty damn bad.

With that said, 9 wins last year doesn't ensure success this year. IT wouldn't give the Giants better odds of winning the east in 2016. They weren't going anywhere last year regardless, so it's best to just move on to 2016 and hope the ship is turning around. I can't put much stock in pre-season i'm sorry. I just can't do it. I've seen too many instances where these practice games yield little to no tangible evidence at all. Even just watching individuals perform should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure there are tell tale signs from year to year but they are impossible to gauge or quantify. One year the OL may look like crap in August only to play well throughout the season. One year the OL struggles early lead to struggles throughout the year. Who's to know what is or isn't for real? The OL was OK last year and has really only aged in a positive manner. Why would it collapse this coming season? Because of one or two shaky pre-season games we are going to panic? I aint buying it. I will never buy these games.

I'm all about the entire season. THis team definitely needs to win and soon. They are very very due. But I can't the entire franchise until the proof is in the pudding. Save your angst for when it really counts.

I think the D will play well and the O will be somewhat hit or miss but in the end, will score 400+.
Timing the decline..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 11:03 am : link
of an OL is a tough thing. We saw the same happen after the SB run in 200, where Ron Stone and Lomas Brown and Glenn Parker had one last hurrah.

You simply don't know when a Diehl or Snee is going to rapidly start to fail.
Snee wasn't even that old, though  
Greg from LI : 8/22/2016 11:06 am : link
He was basically finished at age 30. Top OLs usually last longer than that. It was a lousy break, kind of like having the excellent 2011 WR corps completely fall apart within a couple of years.
No one is saying that the defense shouldn't have been addressed  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 11:07 am : link
But whether it should have been addressed by overpaying the players they did is a different matter. I still don't expect the defense to be a strength, and it won't take much misfortune to make the offense significantly worse.

If everything aligns they can go 10-6. I guess I'm just tired of them being a team where we hope everything signs in order to scrape into the playoffs. It's been that way every year except one since 2004.
Aligns not signs  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 11:08 am : link
.
But Terps..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 11:10 am : link
that's the reality of today's NFL. There's probably only 3 teams each year who can withstand significant disruption to make the playoffs, and a lot of that is based on divisional strength, where the Colts or Pats can breeze in - heck the Colts without Luck came damn close last year.

Almost every team need chips to fall into place or the season will tank. Even the Panthers last year rode having a very healthy team on the lines in the regular season which enabled continuity and allowed them to lose a player like Benjamin with limited adverse effects.
RE: So now loss of Gettlemen is issue?  
Joey in VA : 8/22/2016 11:13 am : link
In comment 13080685 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Really?
He was the guy who finding and bringing in talent to keep the bottom of the roster competitive. He's now doing a great job of it in Carolina and you doubt his loss means anything? Brilliant deduction.
I think the D will be a strength  
djm : 8/22/2016 11:15 am : link
I think it's going to be better than the offense if everything shakes out in normal fashion. The front 4 is loaded if you believe Owa can be a legit body off the bench. The LBs are OK but the secondary looks pretty deep. Add it all up --that's a solid defense. The specials are solid. The O will be flaky at times but explosive. To me the key will be turnovers forced and lost. Keep that number at around +5 or so and the Giants should be playing for the East title in late December.
Gettleman..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 11:16 am : link
has made some tough decisions in Carolina and so far they've paid off. His drafts have been unspectacular, but is producing solid players, and he jettisoned some of the problem children like Hardy and Norman.

What I like about him is he's decisive in his decisions. He'll comment about Hardy or Norman immediately afterwards but if you ask him about that now, he'll tell you those guys are in the rearview mirror and he's preparing for 2016.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 11:19 am : link
I think all of Vernon, Harrison and JPP are going to be legitimate difference makers on the defensive side of the ball. If you're going to point to one guy and say they overpaid I guess you could mention Jenkins but it didn't really bother me that much.

If they didn't pay for these players, what else should they have done? He invested almost every draft pick he had into that side of the football as well.

You have no shot in this league if your defense is absolutely terrible. We needed a lot of help.
RE: But Terps..  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 11:27 am : link
In comment 13081175 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that's the reality of today's NFL. There's probably only 3 teams each year who can withstand significant disruption to make the playoffs, and a lot of that is based on divisional strength, where the Colts or Pats can breeze in - heck the Colts without Luck came damn close last year.

Almost every team need chips to fall into place or the season will tank. Even the Panthers last year rode having a very healthy team on the lines in the regular season which enabled continuity and allowed them to lose a player like Benjamin with limited adverse effects.


That's true, but a big reason that's the reality for so many teams is that the quarterback position is a problem. Some teams can't find one, others like Dallas, Pittsburgh, or Arizona have a hard time keeping theirs fully healthy year to year. We haven't had that problem and in that sense have had an enormous advantage over the majority of the league and certainly the teams in our division.

And a word about the division: it's been relatively weak for some time. There hasn't been a repeat division champ since the 2004 Eagles. And only three times since then has a team won 12 or more games. And it's been won by a 10-6 or 9-7 team 5 of the last 6 seasons, so it's not like we've been dealing with the Patriots in our division.

It just feels like some opportunities have been wasted, and the recent moves feel like spinning wheels.
How are the recent moves "spinning wheels"?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 11:29 am : link
?
GM  
stretch234 : 8/22/2016 11:35 am : link
I think last year proved, that with no defense and pass rush you lose games.

Not even 4th qtr, but last drives of games with lead/tied - Dal, NE, Jets, NO, Car

The defense had to be addressed.

I was one for shouting how much Vernon cost, but the reality is he is a 25 year old pass rusher. They do not grow on trees. They got 1 of the best run stopping DT in the game. They paid for a CB who has been healthy

The reality is that it is hard to have a good OL. Does Car have a good OL or does Cam make them much better. GB is bad, Chi is not good, Det, Atl, TB, NO, Phi, Was. Wilson was not sitting in the pocket with anytime. AZ OL was terrible at the end of the year. You have to develop OL.

Could Beatty help - maybe - is he really healthy
RE: GM  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 11:37 am : link
In comment 13081219 stretch234 said:
Quote:
I think last year proved, that with no defense and pass rush you lose games.

Not even 4th qtr, but last drives of games with lead/tied - Dal, NE, Jets, NO, Car

The defense had to be addressed.

I was one for shouting how much Vernon cost, but the reality is he is a 25 year old pass rusher. They do not grow on trees. They got 1 of the best run stopping DT in the game. They paid for a CB who has been healthy

The reality is that it is hard to have a good OL. Does Car have a good OL or does Cam make them much better. GB is bad, Chi is not good, Det, Atl, TB, NO, Phi, Was. Wilson was not sitting in the pocket with anytime. AZ OL was terrible at the end of the year. You have to develop OL.

Could Beatty help - maybe - is he really healthy


Good job
RE: How are the recent moves  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 11:41 am : link
In comment 13081215 drkenneth said:
Quote:
?


Because they are reactive and, to me, don't indicate that there is a larger plan in place to establish what type of team this is going to be both in the near term and the long term.

There's a difference between setting out to establish something, like say Dallas has done with their offensive line, and putting out fires.

What is this team trying to be?
They clearly wanted to upgarde the pass rush and  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 11:49 am : link
secondary, which they have.

They are tough, big, and fast on the DL, with a lot of talent in the secondary.

It's a passing league. You need to rush the passer, and take the ball away (see DRC, Jenkins, & Thompson)

All the additions on the D are young, rising players.

I'd agree if they signed washed up players like Mario Williams.



.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 11:51 am : link
They're trying to cover and rush the passer. The same defensive formula we used in the Super Bowl runs. Not saying it will certainly work but I think it's pretty obvious what they're trying to be.
And since when is Dallas the pillar of "establishing something"  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 11:53 am : link
Yes, they invested in their OL. Their defense is a fucking disaster.

Half their defense is suspended. How is that "establishing something"

Rolando McClain is addicted to Sizzurp for Christ sakes.

Randy Gregory is suspended again.

Their 2nd round pick won't play this year.

Romo is one hit away from being toast.

Sure, they have built a tremendous OL. But they have issues elsewhere.
Go Terps  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 11:56 am : link
Just because you don't see the plan doesn't mean there wasn't one in place, and, honestly, I think if Jerry Reese himself gave you a folder titled, "This is our plan," you'd still say they didn't have one. No offense.

To me, the plan was obvious once free agency began. Upgrade a historically bad defense by signing the best available players on the market - the best two-way DE, the best run-stuffing DT, and a dynamic, durable CB. All relatively young, too. No aging veterans looking for one final payday. No injury concerns (except for Keenan Robinson).

Continue this in the draft by picking your highest graded CB, an intelligent, playmaking FS, and a promising LB. If defense wins championships (which is something I don't necessarily adhere to, but many do), then upgrading their defense was paramount to the Giants.

Could the Giants have done more to, say, upgrade their offensive line? Maybe...maybe not, as I pondered in my first post in this thread.
RE: .  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 12:00 pm : link
In comment 13081249 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
They're trying to cover and rush the passer. The same defensive formula we used in the Super Bowl runs. Not saying it will certainly work but I think it's pretty obvious what they're trying to be.


If that is the case that would worry me too for a couple reasons:

1. It might be stale thinking that fails to keep up with changes in the league.

2. 2007 and 2011 were amazing and can't be taken away, but using them as models for future success seems deeply flawed. In 2007 they had an extremely rare assembly of talented pass rushers; not one of the guys today would start on that line. And in 2011 the defense was actually pretty poor. Wonderful runs both, but those teams shouldn't be templates.
RE: And since when is Dallas the pillar of  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 12:08 pm : link
In comment 13081252 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Yes, they invested in their OL. Their defense is a fucking disaster.

Half their defense is suspended. How is that "establishing something"

Rolando McClain is addicted to Sizzurp for Christ sakes.

Randy Gregory is suspended again.

Their 2nd round pick won't play this year.

Romo is one hit away from being toast.

Sure, they have built a tremendous OL. But they have issues elsewhere.


Yes they do, and despite those issues they are the best team in the division if their brittle quarterback can stay healthy.

Last year if we had their offensive line we would have won 10 games and the division because we would have been able to dominate the fourth quarter in those close games that we lost. Even with that shitty defense.

That's what a dominant unit can do for you. Denver won the whole thing even though they couldn't throw the ball because they were dominant on one side. Seattle was dominant on one side and should have won back to back if their head coach didn't melt down.

We're not going to build anything dominant because we're focused instead on putting out fires. Next off-season we'll be trying to put out the fires on the offensive side of the ball. And so on.

Who said the 2007/2011 teams were "templates"?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 12:08 pm : link
You're reaching there a bit.

When is having a strong DL and Secondary a bad idea?

What template would you follow? Some alternate-NFL universe?

You think getting after the QB will get "stale"?

You think taking the ball away is "stale"?
Dallas won 4 games last year.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 12:09 pm : link
4.
best team in the division?  
Greg from LI : 8/22/2016 12:09 pm : link
Talk about damning with faint praise
Dallas has a D..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 12:10 pm : link
that very well could be worse than ours last year. A healthy Romo or not, the Cowboys are favorites based on reputation alone.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13081273 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081249 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


They're trying to cover and rush the passer. The same defensive formula we used in the Super Bowl runs. Not saying it will certainly work but I think it's pretty obvious what they're trying to be.



If that is the case that would worry me too for a couple reasons:

1. It might be stale thinking that fails to keep up with changes in the league.

2. 2007 and 2011 were amazing and can't be taken away, but using them as models for future success seems deeply flawed. In 2007 they had an extremely rare assembly of talented pass rushers; not one of the guys today would start on that line. And in 2011 the defense was actually pretty poor. Wonderful runs both, but those teams shouldn't be templates.


Rushing the passer isn't something that becomes obsolete in the NFL. It is always paramount. It has always been paramount. You have to be able to put pressure on QB's otherwise they'll just sit back there and pick you apart.

The defense was poor during most of the 2011 regular season but it was a massive part of the Super Bowl run and we never win that championship without it. They shut out the Falcons, shut down a historically great GB offense that was the driving force between their 15-1 regular season and beat Tom Brady in the Super Bowl.

If you can get to the QB and cover in this league, your team is always going to have a chance. You really can't win in this league with shitty defense. Even the Pariot teams that won titles had good defenses.

I still can't really seem to figure out through your criticisms what it is you'd rather see the Giants do.
Go Terps, you keep talking about putting out fires...  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 12:13 pm : link
Which sounds nice, but is misleading in the extreme. Every team looks to upgrade in the offseason, and where and with whom they upgrade depends on the team. Were the Raiders just putting out fires when they signed Osemele? Were the Chiefs just putting out fires when they signed Mitchell Schwartz? Of course not. Would we have been just putting out fires if we had signed either of them? Somehow, I don't think you would have characterized us as putting out fires if we had.
I'll believe our defense is good when I see it  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 12:15 pm : link
It hasn't been good since 2008. A couple of overpriced free agents aren't going to convince me.
Fats, Greg, et al  
JonC : 8/22/2016 12:27 pm : link
While I agree no one has a crystal ball, Snee, for example, had been struggling terribly with the hip (and other injuries) for some time. He and the team knew prior to his final camp that it was his very last chance.

It's difficult to argue when your team shows tremendous loyalty to its players, especially those who've been part of something special on many occasions. But, it's the other side of the coin where many of their decisions and draft picks were washouts to a great degree, which ruined their chance to transition without enduring great pain.

I think we're all tired of watching the team rely on a Newhouse or Jerry or insert name here.

Terps  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/22/2016 12:28 pm : link
I give you an A+ on buzzwords and cliches
Jon..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 12:32 pm : link
I agree. But it is an inexact science. The probability of Cruz getting back to form that we know is slim. The probability of Nicks ever returning to form was unlikely.

Even with injuries, All Pro players are going to get the benefit of the doubt - whether that's correct or not.

To be sure - it has had an impact on us, but the injury situation has made things that are normally a slower decline at certain positions like OL or S (and even WR) and accelerated it to a critical need.
RE: I'll believe our defense is good when I see it  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13081311 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It hasn't been good since 2008. A couple of overpriced free agents aren't going to convince me.


Let's face it - you don't want to see it. You'd rather be right than have to admit you were wrong.

So, you dismiss the offseason acquistions as "a couple of overpriced free agents," conveniently ignoring their ages, pedigrees, the need to upgrade their positions, and the going market rate for UFAs. You also conveniently ignore the draft, where their first round pick will most likely play quite a bit, and their third round pick has started from the moment he stepped onto the field. I'm pretty sure, though, that if the Giants had signed Anquan Boldin, whatever the cost, all would be bright and shiny in Go Terps Land.
RE: RE: And since when is Dallas the pillar of  
djm : 8/22/2016 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13081289 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081252 drkenneth said:


Quote:


Yes, they invested in their OL. Their defense is a fucking disaster.

Half their defense is suspended. How is that "establishing something"

Rolando McClain is addicted to Sizzurp for Christ sakes.

Randy Gregory is suspended again.

Their 2nd round pick won't play this year.

Romo is one hit away from being toast.

Sure, they have built a tremendous OL. But they have issues elsewhere.



Yes they do, and despite those issues they are the best team in the division if their brittle quarterback can stay healthy.

Last year if we had their offensive line we would have won 10 games and the division because we would have been able to dominate the fourth quarter in those close games that we lost. Even with that shitty defense.

That's what a dominant unit can do for you. Denver won the whole thing even though they couldn't throw the ball because they were dominant on one side. Seattle was dominant on one side and should have won back to back if their head coach didn't melt down.

We're not going to build anything dominant because we're focused instead on putting out fires. Next off-season we'll be trying to put out the fires on the offensive side of the ball. And so on.


Wow. That's a stretch. Dallas is not the best team in the east until they prove it on the field. They are highly flawed. Dangerous yes, but highly flawed.
so if the Giants spent the same insane money  
djm : 8/22/2016 12:39 pm : link
on a FA GUARD. That would be ok because it's not putting out any fires and the Giants OL would become dominant as a result? Is that it?

WTF are you talking about....
Fats  
JonC : 8/22/2016 12:39 pm : link
I hear you and agree, especially how injuries have played a big role in the misfortunes since 2012. Interested to see if fortunes change with the new coaches and conditioning programs now in place.
I also believe luck plays a role  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/22/2016 12:44 pm : link
and the Giants are due for some good luck on the injury front.
RE: RE: I'll believe our defense is good when I see it  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13081356 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13081311 Go Terps said:


Quote:


It hasn't been good since 2008. A couple of overpriced free agents aren't going to convince me.



Let's face it - you don't want to see it. You'd rather be right than have to admit you were wrong.

So, you dismiss the offseason acquistions as "a couple of overpriced free agents," conveniently ignoring their ages, pedigrees, the need to upgrade their positions, and the going market rate for UFAs. You also conveniently ignore the draft, where their first round pick will most likely play quite a bit, and their third round pick has started from the moment he stepped onto the field. I'm pretty sure, though, that if the Giants had signed Anquan Boldin, whatever the cost, all would be bright and shiny in Go Terps Land.


That is such complete bullshit.

In all the years I have been posting here I have never been the guy that is always ripping the team for its personnel moves, nor have I been a bloodthirsty, reactionary idiot screaming for people to be fired left and right.

It is AMAZING how full of shit some of you are. This team has been dog shit for three years but I'm out of line pointing out that Dallas is better? We've got people saying that the defense is going to be superb (an actual quote), and invoking 2007 when our DEs are comprised of a guy still learning how to play with half a hand and a guy who had 7.5 sacks last year.

19-29 the last three years. This team is crap until proven otherwise. Winning the spring used to be something the Redskins did after we went to the playoffs. It's sad to see the roles reversed.
I don't view the Giants off-season like the Redskins  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 1:02 pm : link
of old or the Eagles dream team.

The Giants had a ton of cap space and used it to build out their core.

they signed the best available young free agents at positions of need to long-term deals.

the Redskins of old would sign Deion Sanders (33 years old) or Adam Archuletta (29 years old), or a lazy Albert Haynesworth (28 years old) or Antwan Randle El.

I don't see a ton of difference with this free agency period for the Giants than the one with Burress, Pierce, and McKenzie.

only thing is I'm not a huge Jenkins fan, but still get the signing.
RE: RE: RE: I'll believe our defense is good when I see it  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13081408 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081356 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 13081311 Go Terps said:


Quote:


It hasn't been good since 2008. A couple of overpriced free agents aren't going to convince me.



Let's face it - you don't want to see it. You'd rather be right than have to admit you were wrong.

So, you dismiss the offseason acquistions as "a couple of overpriced free agents," conveniently ignoring their ages, pedigrees, the need to upgrade their positions, and the going market rate for UFAs. You also conveniently ignore the draft, where their first round pick will most likely play quite a bit, and their third round pick has started from the moment he stepped onto the field. I'm pretty sure, though, that if the Giants had signed Anquan Boldin, whatever the cost, all would be bright and shiny in Go Terps Land.



That is such complete bullshit.

In all the years I have been posting here I have never been the guy that is always ripping the team for its personnel moves, nor have I been a bloodthirsty, reactionary idiot screaming for people to be fired left and right.

It is AMAZING how full of shit some of you are. This team has been dog shit for three years but I'm out of line pointing out that Dallas is better? We've got people saying that the defense is going to be superb (an actual quote), and invoking 2007 when our DEs are comprised of a guy still learning how to play with half a hand and a guy who had 7.5 sacks last year.

19-29 the last three years. This team is crap until proven otherwise. Winning the spring used to be something the Redskins did after we went to the playoffs. It's sad to see the roles reversed.


Except that we did not follow the Redskins' model of signing aging veterans in the twilight of their careers. We signed ascending players all under the age of 30. Anyone who compares what we did this spring to what the Redskins have done in the past - whether it's you, or Elliot Harrison, or whomever - is just plain wrong.

"19-29 the last three years. This team is crap until proven otherwise." I would point out that this team is much, much healthier than it has been in the last three years, and as long as it stays that way, it should - the operative word being "should" - play better than it has when it accrued that 19-29 record.

I don't know who said defense would be "superb," but it wouldn't surprise me if it came from someone like SGMen, who reaches JerseyJoe heights in his prognostications. No one who isn't constantly dreaming about trading Larry Donnell for a starting-caliber RT is comparing what the 2016 Giants defense could be to the '85 Bears. Conversely, very few are saying it will be "crap until proven otherwise," either. Most expect it to be better...somewhere in the middle of the pack, which would be a marked improvement over last year.

And no, I never said that you were "bloodthirsty, reactionary idiot screaming for people to be fired left and right." But what I have seen from you this year is an almost automatic dismissal of what the Giants have done to improve their team, while at the same time lambasting them for not making moves that you think will better serve them.
Terps..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 1:21 pm : link
in a way it is semantics, but this stance is one that happens a lot here:

Quote:
This team has been dog shit for three years but I'm out of line pointing out that Dallas is better?


BBI'ers tend to hold Dallas on a pedestal despite them really winning hardly anything of meaning for the past 21 years. Sean Lee is still feared as a great player, while his mirror image Jon Beason was a useless piece of shit.

Every one of their linemen are massive studs while we have complete crap, yet whose QB has been hurt three of the past 4 years?

Reese was asleep at the wheel for not signing McCain and really should have lowered his character concerns to take a look at Hardy.

I mean, Dallas was 3 games out of 1st when Romo came back last year and even Eric predicted that Dallas would win the division, despite the fact that the Giants were a self-destructing last drive away from winning the opener when Romo was healthy.

I know this next statement doesn't apply to you because you appreciate the SB wins, but a lot of people really tout Dallas as a powerhouse and even a model we should aspire to, yet they haven't won shit and last year we saw what happened when they have a Giants-like situation with injuries. This year, we'll see how they handle having an atrocious defense.
Easy  
skifaster : 8/22/2016 1:25 pm : link
I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)
...and...  
skifaster : 8/22/2016 1:29 pm : link
A running game is the best defense.
RE: Easy  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13081465 skifaster said:
Quote:
I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)


Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?
.  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 1:33 pm : link
pj - I'm not dismissing the moves, I'm critical of them. Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't. To me they appear to be the same type of moves that resulted in a team that tried to scrape by to make the playoffs.

FMiC - I'm hardly a Dallas admirer, I just can't get over the criticism of them while at the same time there is great optimism for our team. It doesn't make sense at all.
RE: RE: Easy  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13081488 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13081465 skifaster said:


Quote:


I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)



Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?


Who's our #2 WR if Shepard wasn't on the board? I agree he looks like the goods but counting on a rookie to carry such a heavy burden is a problem. Better prospects than him have failed or worn down physically and mentally under the added strain of the pro game.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 1:40 pm : link
You keep talking about the defensive players we signed as if they're over the hill, one year stopgaps in the twilight of their careers and we're just trying to squeeze one last good year out of them in order to make the playoffs this year in desperation mode.

Would you rather we had a 2013 type offseason where we signed Cullen Jenkins, Ryan Mundy, Aaron Ross' corpse, Dan Connor and an always injured Jon Beason?
RE: .  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:40 pm : link
In comment 13081490 Go Terps said:
Quote:
pj - I'm not dismissing the moves, I'm critical of them. Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't. To me they appear to be the same type of moves that resulted in a team that tried to scrape by to make the playoffs.

FMiC - I'm hardly a Dallas admirer, I just can't get over the criticism of them while at the same time there is great optimism for our team. It doesn't make sense at all.


"To me they appear to be the same type of moves that resulted in a team that tried to scrape by to make the playoffs."

Can you expand upon this a bit? What year are you referring to?

What year did the Giants spend $200mil to "scrape by"

You feel the best move(s) were Osemele @ $60m and a 35 year old Anquan Boldin?

Those moves will work, yet singing Vernon and Snacks, etc..."may work, may not"

Like someone said yesterday: It must be lonely being the smartest person in the room.

You come up with some weird shit.
RE: RE: RE: Easy  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13081502 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081488 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13081465 skifaster said:


Quote:


I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)



Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?



Who's our #2 WR if Shepard wasn't on the board? I agree he looks like the goods but counting on a rookie to carry such a heavy burden is a problem. Better prospects than him have failed or worn down physically and mentally under the added strain of the pro game.


Again, you're playing the "GoTerps smart, everyone else dumb" card over and over.

So pairing a reliable #2 WR next to Beckham isn't "Building Something"?
drkenneth  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 1:47 pm : link
The #2 WR is my point: we HAVEN'T paired a reliable guy with Beckham.

This is the bullshit I'm talking about. We're so wrapped up in wanting to be optimistic that we start calling rookies reliable before they have played a regular season snap. Utterly ridiculous.
RE: RE: RE: Easy  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13081502 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081488 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13081465 skifaster said:


Quote:


I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)



Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?



Who's our #2 WR if Shepard wasn't on the board? I agree he looks like the goods but counting on a rookie to carry such a heavy burden is a problem. Better prospects than him have failed or worn down physically and mentally under the added strain of the pro game.


Let's stay in reality here. Shepard WAS available and WE DID draft him.

You say counting on a rookie to "carry such a heavy burden" is a problem....But starting a rookie G is no big deal?

RE: drkenneth  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13081528 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The #2 WR is my point: we HAVEN'T paired a reliable guy with Beckham.

This is the bullshit I'm talking about. We're so wrapped up in wanting to be optimistic that we start calling rookies reliable before they have played a regular season snap. Utterly ridiculous.


But a rookie G would be reliable?

Are you really this arrogant in real life?
Where did I say that?  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 1:52 pm : link
I would have drafted Shepard. The point is that we are now counting on a rookie to be the WR opposite Beckham. That is unbelievably risky.
I would've kept Schwartz and Beatty...  
x meadowlander : 8/22/2016 1:54 pm : link
...until I had their positions covered by players of equal or greater value - not only as starters, but for depth.

I PRESUME this is what Reese/McAdoo believe they did. I just don't know who the equal or greater value are yet.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 1:55 pm : link
Who would have been a "reliable" WR2 that we could have signed via FA? We took a look at Marvin Jones.. he got 5 years and 40 M from DET. I think he will be excellent there but that's a lot of coin for a guy with a shoddy track record. Would you really say he's reliable right now?

LaFell, Sanu.... Benjamin.. Rishard Matthews..

Boldin is a slot guy now. We needed someone who could play on the outside opposite Beckham.

You complain when we "overspend" on FA's and then complain again when we draft a young, cost controlled WR.

There just seems to be no rhyme or reason to your critiques other than expressing disapproval at every turn.
RE: Where did I say that?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13081545 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I would have drafted Shepard. The point is that we are now counting on a rookie to be the WR opposite Beckham. That is unbelievably risky.


As is starting a rookie OL. Is it not?

Again, you're master plan yesterday was to sign Osemele (who got $60mil to play G, and sign a 35 year old Boldin.

You come around and act like everyone else is crazy.
Where did I complain about drafting Shepard  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 1:57 pm : link
?
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 2:02 pm : link
On one hand, you're saying you'd have drafted him, on the other you're saying you don't like that we're relying on him to be the #2 WR.

Teams expect premium draft choices to contribute in year one. We're not asking him to be our best WR. Why do you think teams spent high draft picks on these guys to begin with? So they they add to an embarrassment of riches at the position and further their luxury of depth?

Evans, Benjamin, Matthews, Cooper, Cooks, etc.. the teams that drafted these guys all relied on them to be top targets for their football teams in year one. We did the same thing with Beckham. But now it's not okay to take a WR in the 2nd rd and expect him to be your 2nd best WR?

Just not really understanding the logic.
This isn't a one year thing only though  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:07 pm : link
There were other players available last year who I think the Giants should have signed in order to address the OL.

It does suck that not only did we pass on Tunsil, but missed out on Conklin as well. Apple WILL be a very good player IMO, and in today's NFL you NEED to have a ton of CBs considering your nickel is a defacto starter. So I can't really hate on the pick much.

I will say this though - I think Jenkins contract is absolutely absurd, and even AFTER giving Jenkins that contract, I'd have resigned Prince as well (if he'd agree to it) considering he signed for peanuts compared to Jenkins. I do not think the difference between the two players is anywhere close to their salary differences.

If the reports about being unwilling to move Flowers to RT is true, I can say with confidence that's one difference I'd have made, and would have made a stronger run at Eugene Monroe. I'd have offered a pick as high as the 3rd round for Anthony Davis as well.

Lastly, while I can live with cutting Schwartz (but wouldn't have done it), there's 0 chance I'd have cut Beatty.

If this line was Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers, then it'd actually be a STRENGTH of the team. Even if you replace Schwartz with Jerry, that's a pretty damn good unit with potential to be great.

Fuck it man, if I was GM I'd be on the phone with Beatty as we speak.
Terps- You're all over the place.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:10 pm : link
You're zigging when people are zagging.

It's your BBI shtick.

Dallas is "building something" yet their QB gets the shit beat out of him, and they've won exactly 2 playoff games in 20 years.

You talk about the Giants spending on "high priced FAs", then suggest spending $60+ million on a G and sign a 35 year old WR.

Then you bitch about spending a #2 on a WR to pair with Beckham.

I'm having a hard tie understand what the fuck your stance is. It's like your just taking shots in the dark here.
It was a reasonably encouraging off-season  
Overseer : 8/22/2016 2:10 pm : link
The first thing I do any time the Giants sign a new player is look at their games started/played. The 3 big acquisitions all have a whole lot of 16s next to them. No guarantee that continues, but it's a welcome change from the broken down also-rans signed in recent years. The Snacks signing was money.

What would have made it better was Cordy Glenn in place of Jenkins...they landed almost identical contracts. Idk if Glenn could have been lured from Buffalo, but it would have been huge.

So it was a decent off-season, but I agree legit high expectations are so unfounded and perplexing. They've sucked. They blow games in unbelievable fashion. Injuries, yes. But 6-10 teams who continually miss the playoffs (in a mediocre division no less) despite having an always healthy franchise QB are fully in "prove it" mode. Perhaps beat the Eagles in a meaningful game...something they haven't done since 2011 (Cruz's coming out party).
RE: This isn't a one year thing only though  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13081585 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
There were other players available last year who I think the Giants should have signed in order to address the OL.

It does suck that not only did we pass on Tunsil, but missed out on Conklin as well. Apple WILL be a very good player IMO, and in today's NFL you NEED to have a ton of CBs considering your nickel is a defacto starter. So I can't really hate on the pick much.

I will say this though - I think Jenkins contract is absolutely absurd, and even AFTER giving Jenkins that contract, I'd have resigned Prince as well (if he'd agree to it) considering he signed for peanuts compared to Jenkins. I do not think the difference between the two players is anywhere close to their salary differences.

If the reports about being unwilling to move Flowers to RT is true, I can say with confidence that's one difference I'd have made, and would have made a stronger run at Eugene Monroe. I'd have offered a pick as high as the 3rd round for Anthony Davis as well.

Lastly, while I can live with cutting Schwartz (but wouldn't have done it), there's 0 chance I'd have cut Beatty.

If this line was Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers, then it'd actually be a STRENGTH of the team. Even if you replace Schwartz with Jerry, that's a pretty damn good unit with potential to be great.

Fuck it man, if I was GM I'd be on the phone with Beatty as we speak.


Don't you think if Will Beatty was actually a good LT that someone would have signed him by now? You don't think anyone else in this league needs help at OT?
RE: RE: This isn't a one year thing only though  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13081595 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13081585 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


There were other players available last year who I think the Giants should have signed in order to address the OL.

It does suck that not only did we pass on Tunsil, but missed out on Conklin as well. Apple WILL be a very good player IMO, and in today's NFL you NEED to have a ton of CBs considering your nickel is a defacto starter. So I can't really hate on the pick much.

I will say this though - I think Jenkins contract is absolutely absurd, and even AFTER giving Jenkins that contract, I'd have resigned Prince as well (if he'd agree to it) considering he signed for peanuts compared to Jenkins. I do not think the difference between the two players is anywhere close to their salary differences.

If the reports about being unwilling to move Flowers to RT is true, I can say with confidence that's one difference I'd have made, and would have made a stronger run at Eugene Monroe. I'd have offered a pick as high as the 3rd round for Anthony Davis as well.

Lastly, while I can live with cutting Schwartz (but wouldn't have done it), there's 0 chance I'd have cut Beatty.

If this line was Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers, then it'd actually be a STRENGTH of the team. Even if you replace Schwartz with Jerry, that's a pretty damn good unit with potential to be great.

Fuck it man, if I was GM I'd be on the phone with Beatty as we speak.



Don't you think if Will Beatty was actually a good LT that someone would have signed him by now? You don't think anyone else in this league needs help at OT?


Don't forget about the 3rd round pick for Anthony Davis!
RE: .  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13081550 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Who would have been a "reliable" WR2 that we could have signed via FA? We took a look at Marvin Jones.. he got 5 years and 40 M from DET. I think he will be excellent there but that's a lot of coin for a guy with a shoddy track record. Would you really say he's reliable right now?

LaFell, Sanu.... Benjamin.. Rishard Matthews..

Boldin is a slot guy now. We needed someone who could play on the outside opposite Beckham.

You complain when we "overspend" on FA's and then complain again when we draft a young, cost controlled WR.

There just seems to be no rhyme or reason to your critiques other than expressing disapproval at every turn.

Just to interject, and not for the purposes of taking either side in this debate you've having with Go Terps, I actually think all those WRs except for LaFell would have been EXCELLENT signings. Then again, if signing those players means we don't draft Shepard, I'm glad we didn't.

I'd love Matthews or Sanu in blue.
RE: RE: RE: This isn't a one year thing only though  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13081601 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13081595 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13081585 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


There were other players available last year who I think the Giants should have signed in order to address the OL.

It does suck that not only did we pass on Tunsil, but missed out on Conklin as well. Apple WILL be a very good player IMO, and in today's NFL you NEED to have a ton of CBs considering your nickel is a defacto starter. So I can't really hate on the pick much.

I will say this though - I think Jenkins contract is absolutely absurd, and even AFTER giving Jenkins that contract, I'd have resigned Prince as well (if he'd agree to it) considering he signed for peanuts compared to Jenkins. I do not think the difference between the two players is anywhere close to their salary differences.

If the reports about being unwilling to move Flowers to RT is true, I can say with confidence that's one difference I'd have made, and would have made a stronger run at Eugene Monroe. I'd have offered a pick as high as the 3rd round for Anthony Davis as well.

Lastly, while I can live with cutting Schwartz (but wouldn't have done it), there's 0 chance I'd have cut Beatty.

If this line was Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - Schwartz - Flowers, then it'd actually be a STRENGTH of the team. Even if you replace Schwartz with Jerry, that's a pretty damn good unit with potential to be great.

Fuck it man, if I was GM I'd be on the phone with Beatty as we speak.



Don't you think if Will Beatty was actually a good LT that someone would have signed him by now? You don't think anyone else in this league needs help at OT?



Don't forget about the 3rd round pick for Anthony Davis!
Yes, I'd definitely have traded next year's 3rd for Anthony Davis.

I know trading for Davis has become a BBI meme, but that's not based on him being a bad football player. He's a good to great tackle who has played RT extensively.

As for Beatty being signed already, who knows...but just because someone is currently a FA doesn't automatically mean they can't play, but rather that they are an injury risk nobody wants to take up.

Look at Ahmad Bradshaw. He definitely still has some gas in the tank, but he's an injury risk and nobody will touch him.

Besides, being that we cut Beatty, it's not like there would have been much to lose to hang on to him and see how he performed in camp first. The only thing I can think of is that something happened behind the scenes that we are not privy to.
While we're at it and talking about the offseason as a whole  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:21 pm : link
...is there anyone out there that would rather have Jenkins for the amount of money we paid him than Prince for what he got from JAX? I think he's making like $5 million or something obscenely low.

I really liked the Leon Hall signing, and maybe that doesn't happen if we re-sign Prince, but regardless, the overpay for Jenkins was apparent.
Hmm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 2:24 pm : link
Quote:
Look at Ahmad Bradshaw. He definitely still has some gas in the tank, but he's an injury risk and nobody will touch him.


Not sure he has any gas left in the tank, but I'm fairly certain that if the Giants signed him, that's a bad move.

Signing Beatty is a really bad move, not just because the guy is injured, but because he also doesn't want to play here.

It isn't Madden where you just sign players and then control them with the joystick or hit the A button to make them happy.
.  
Vin R : 8/22/2016 2:24 pm : link
Who gives a shit what we paid Jenkins?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:24 pm : link
It's not your money.

We have plenty of cap room.

And keep in mind..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 2:26 pm : link
the Giants consciously let Beatty, Randle and Prince walk. Not sure I'd rather have Prince at any price tag since moving on was less about the money.
None of Sonic's post is based in reality.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:27 pm : link
Only on BBI was Anthony Davis available. As Fats said, this isn't Madden.

You also suggested signing one player who is retired and one player we cut, and is still unsigned.

Holy shit.
drkenneth, what would YOU have done?  
yatqb : 8/22/2016 2:27 pm : link
I don't see you addressing that in your thread. You can't possibly be happy with the last three 6-10 records, or JR's draft record prior to the past few drafts.

It seems like your post is somewhat of an apologia for JR's performance, yet I can't believe that you really feel he's done an adequate job of addressing the OL in either FA or the draft over the years.

Is it our scouting of OL prospects? We certainly haven't hit on even one low round draft choice since DD. Is it an undervaluing of the position? Doesn't seem to me to be so, given the selections of Pugh and Flowers, some of our FA signings, and our likely pick of Conklin if he'd been there for us. So what exactly is it? Does it come back to scouting?

And, I can understand the cutting of Beatty, who didn't lay it on the line for the team last year. But why would you cut Schwartz, who is at least a relatively competent OG, and a guy who can at least fill in at OT?

Don't you think that something is wrong here?
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 2:28 pm : link
I would much rather have Jackrabbit than Prince right now. Prince has one 16 game season under his belt in his 5 as a pro. It was time to cut bait. Players are no good if they can't stay on the field.
RE: Who gives a shit what we paid Jenkins?  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13081625 drkenneth said:
Quote:
It's not your money.

We have plenty of cap room.

Who gives a shit if we have plenty of cap room? You still have a finite amount of resources that you can only allocate in certain ways. Beckham needs to be resigned soon. Hankins should be resigned as well. If JPP plays well this year, he's going to be resigned also.

And yeah, no shit it's not my money, thanks for pointing that out. Sorry, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people make that statement - literally nobody who makes a statement about overpaying for a player actually cares about how much it "costs" in terms of actually paying out the money. If it was an uncapped league and the Giants could spend whatever they wanted, nobody would give a shit.

Point is that you have a shitload of money tied into a player who isn't much better than Prince, who got peanuts.

Someone else said before that Jenkins and the tackle that went to Oakland got the same amount of money. I'd have rather re-signed Prince and used that money at the tackle spot.

I've been posting all offseason (and frankly for years) about the O-line. I think the o-line was the biggest miscalculation Reese has ever made, and I am generally a big Reese supporter. He fucked it up by not retooling it around 2012/2013. The rebuild of the line started way too late, and the Beatty cut had a feeling of "two step forwards, one step back".

If you give Eli time to throw the ball, he will tear it up. Shit, he's tearing it up in McAdoos offense with this line being garbage as is.

But dedicating resources to the line would have helped the ground game (and in turn, the defense). This is why I'd rather have allocated those resources to a tackle than a CB if Prince could have been resigned for a similar amount to what Jacksonville paid for him.

RE: None of Sonic's post is based in reality.  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13081632 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Only on BBI was Anthony Davis available. As Fats said, this isn't Madden.

You also suggested signing one player who is retired and one player we cut, and is still unsigned.

Holy shit.

No shit he wasn't publicly available, but we don't even know if the Giants inquired. I'd have inquired and I'd have offered up to a third round pick. I brought this up because I'd have traded a higher draft choice than most on this board were willing to trade.

And I would be willing to trade such a high pick because of the premium I place on the O-line.

As for the rest of my post "not being based in reality"... well, that's just a bullshit statement.

I went into the offseason wanting to resign Prince, an OT and potentially an OG, sign another DT and DE, and a WR. We addressed most of these positions but there is an absolute glaring hole at OT, and I'd have hedged my bets by signing Rishard Matthews, who didn't get as big of a contract as Jones and Sanu but would have been a fantastic addition to our WR corp.
RE: And keep in mind..  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13081629 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Giants consciously let Beatty, Randle and Prince walk. Not sure I'd rather have Prince at any price tag since moving on was less about the money.
To be honest, I think the main issue is that he didn't want to resign here.
We haven't gotten this kind of young, build with  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 2:36 pm : link
kind of talent since 2005(at least on paper)..The moves were made with the longer haul in mind. No patchwork, no stopgap, just pure young talent. I don't care about the cost because of our situation with the cap. Money-wise, I cannot see this ever biting us in the ass, even if the investments tank
If you resign Prince..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 2:38 pm : link
and he holds form of missing several games, is it worth it at any price?

As valuable as Bradshaw could be, he has to be on the field. The Colts didn't get that from him last year. In effect, any positive contributions were overshadowed by him missing time. That's the same with Prince - even if he's a blanket, if he only plays half a year that isn't good.
RE: .  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13081635 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I would much rather have Jackrabbit than Prince right now. Prince has one 16 game season under his belt in his 5 as a pro. It was time to cut bait. Players are no good if they can't stay on the field.
All things equal I'd agree with you. But he received a 1 year prove it deal (1 year/$6 mil).

The truth is that at that price, you could have signed Jackrabbit AND Prince (although granted, we probably wouldn't have signed Hall at that point)... but like I said to FMiC a minute ago, I think the larger issue is that Prince wasn't going to resign here regardless.

RE: If you resign Prince..  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:39 pm : link
In comment 13081663 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and he holds form of missing several games, is it worth it at any price?

As valuable as Bradshaw could be, he has to be on the field. The Colts didn't get that from him last year. In effect, any positive contributions were overshadowed by him missing time. That's the same with Prince - even if he's a blanket, if he only plays half a year that isn't good.


In my opinion... if singing Prince means you don't have Jenkins, then I agree with you and do not think he's worth ANY price.

If the Giants could have gotten Prince at 6 million for 1 year after giving Jenkins a contract, then yes, I think he'd be absolutely worth the risk.
RE: drkenneth, what would YOU have done?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:43 pm : link
In comment 13081633 yatqb said:
Quote:
I don't see you addressing that in your thread. You can't possibly be happy with the last three 6-10 records, or JR's draft record prior to the past few drafts.

It seems like your post is somewhat of an apologia for JR's performance, yet I can't believe that you really feel he's done an adequate job of addressing the OL in either FA or the draft over the years.

Is it our scouting of OL prospects? We certainly haven't hit on even one low round draft choice since DD. Is it an undervaluing of the position? Doesn't seem to me to be so, given the selections of Pugh and Flowers, some of our FA signings, and our likely pick of Conklin if he'd been there for us. So what exactly is it? Does it come back to scouting?

And, I can understand the cutting of Beatty, who didn't lay it on the line for the team last year. But why would you cut Schwartz, who is at least a relatively competent OG, and a guy who can at least fill in at OT?

Don't you think that something is wrong here?


Of course I'm not happy with the past few years. I've watched this team my whole life.

I just choose to take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at the big picture. I've seen this team win 4 Super Bowls, 2 in the past 10 years. Yet, we have posters fellating the Cowboys, who have won 2 playoff games in 20 years.

I just have a realistic view of things. Bad drafts happen, and they will happen in the future. Teams aren't built overnight.

The "past few drafts" (2014- Present..You know, after the messiah Gettlemen left) have resulted in 8 starters.

The off-season was a success. Of course we won't know until the games are real, but complaining about it seems like grasping at straws.

The OL simply isn't complete yet. Simple as that. It's easy to say "we should have drafted X player in x round".....The OL needs 2 more starters. We'll most likely have to wait until next year.

And if the OL was complete, the BBI twat-brigade would bitch about something else.

As I've stated before, it's as if 45% of BBI thinks it's 1986, 45% thinks it's Madden, 10% have a reasonable, big-picture view.

There are no complete teams in the NFL. Every team has issues.

If you can't see the drafting is trending upward, then you can't be helped.

Again, OL may have to wait another year. Unless of course, we trade for Anthony Davis, Sign a retired Monroe, and re-sign Beatty, who we cut, and is currently not playing on an NFL team. Brilliant.



.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 2:43 pm : link
We drafted Apple, signed Hall and already had DRC on top of signing Jenkins. Did we really need Prince? CB is the least of my concerns right now. We have good starters and good depth both young and veteran.
Lastly  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:49 pm : link
You can add Mitchell Schwartz to the list of players I'd have considered, provided the Giants could afford it. Also, I didn't realize that drkenneth was actually the OP who started this thread specifically to argue with people are ripping the GM.

The funny thing is I'm not even really ripping Reese that much. I think his moves were great this offseason, I just am not fully on board with Jenkins at that price, and more importantly think he hasn't finished the rebuild he started with the O-line.

He has mismanaged the O-line for years. As another poster said, it's been arguably the biggest problem with this team since 2013. We've had 3 offseasons, it should be rebuilt by now. I've been consistent in wanting to fix this for years. We only have a few more years of Eli left, and we need to do everything in our power to put the right pieces around him. I wanted Martin in 2014 (glad we got OBJ of course though), wanted them to sign Bualaga a year or two ago, wanted Alex Boone/Schwartz/Ouewhatever this year, and was happy they took a tackle when they took Flowers (the pundits said we reached by Reese nails his first round pick, so I have faith in him as a player).

It's just so strange to me that we spent 3 high draft picks on the OL in 2 years, but don't sign any FAs to "complete the set" so to speak.

Fixing the O-line should have been second priority this offseason (after bolstering the defense), and not one thing was done to address it.

It seems like drkenneth's statement is "well there was nothing they could have done to fix the O-line), and I don't think that's true.
Sonic..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/22/2016 2:53 pm : link
But let me ask a question. So many BBI'ers insulted Schwartz for not being healthy or Beatty for not being healthy (and appearing to be soft).

Why then when the team decides to agree with those perceptions that it is a wrong move to bring them back.

Personally, I think it is because the OL is a tough area to dissect and as a group, we aren't very knowledgeable on who could be good and who isn't. But it seems odd that posters that pretty much called for Schwartz and Beatty to be gone - now want to have them here as the missing pieces. Just seems like strange logic.

There's a Schwartz I'd take, but he'a a Panther.
RE: .  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13081677 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We drafted Apple, signed Hall and already had DRC on top of signing Jenkins. Did we really need Prince? CB is the least of my concerns right now. We have good starters and good depth both young and veteran.
I agree, I don't think we have a problem at CB. I was just making an offhand comment about how I'm not sure whether Jenkins will be worth the money.

But you also have to keep in mind that the Apple pick and the Hall signing were made after Prince was already on Jacksonville. If we resign Prince and Jenkins, we may not take Apple there, or may even still draft Apple but not sign Hall.

Personally, if I could swap Jenkins for Okung/Schwartz/Osemele, and have a starting tackle in addition to Prince+Hall+Apple, I'd go that route. Of course we don't know if things would have shaken out the same way, but that's just my personal opinion.

However, maybe there's something else going on with Prince that we don't know about. It's beyond strange to see the contract numbers for the players ranked around him in the link that the OP posted compared to Princes.

Oh, and while we're talking about potential moves we could have made this offseason, I would have made a very very strong run at Gipson. I am VERY excited to see what Thompson can do, but Gipson has the potential to be an absolute stud and part of our defensive core, and I'm sure we would have adjusted our draft strategy to benefit the team in some other way (maybe taking an interior lineman in the 3rd round, or picking up a RB there instead of in the 5th).


RE: Lastly  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 2:56 pm : link
In comment 13081696 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
You can add Mitchell Schwartz to the list of players I'd have considered, provided the Giants could afford it. Also, I didn't realize that drkenneth was actually the OP who started this thread specifically to argue with people are ripping the GM.

The funny thing is I'm not even really ripping Reese that much. I think his moves were great this offseason, I just am not fully on board with Jenkins at that price, and more importantly think he hasn't finished the rebuild he started with the O-line.

He has mismanaged the O-line for years. As another poster said, it's been arguably the biggest problem with this team since 2013. We've had 3 offseasons, it should be rebuilt by now. I've been consistent in wanting to fix this for years. We only have a few more years of Eli left, and we need to do everything in our power to put the right pieces around him. I wanted Martin in 2014 (glad we got OBJ of course though), wanted them to sign Bualaga a year or two ago, wanted Alex Boone/Schwartz/Ouewhatever this year, and was happy they took a tackle when they took Flowers (the pundits said we reached by Reese nails his first round pick, so I have faith in him as a player).

It's just so strange to me that we spent 3 high draft picks on the OL in 2 years, but don't sign any FAs to "complete the set" so to speak.

Fixing the O-line should have been second priority this offseason (after bolstering the defense), and not one thing was done to address it.

It seems like drkenneth's statement is "well there was nothing they could have done to fix the O-line), and I don't think that's true.


So let's say the GM spend all-available resources on fixing the OL.

What about S?
What about #2 WR?
What about the DL and the pass-rush/Run defense?
What about CB?

You're acting like this team had one hole that needed to be fixed, and it was ignored (which it wasn't).

The current OL has two first rounders, and a 2nd rounder (all 3 drafted since 2013)

I'm not saying the OL is complete, or nothing more could be done. But, you're acting like OL are built over night. They aren't.

Look around the league. Everyone needs OL help. And this isn't Madden. You don't just go to the OT store and pick up what you need. Not everyone wants to play here. There are 31 other teams that have OL needs.

Would have loved a guy like Cordy Glenn (we should have drafted him), but he was not available.
RE: RE: drkenneth, what would YOU have done?  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13081676 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13081633 yatqb said:


Quote:


I don't see you addressing that in your thread. You can't possibly be happy with the last three 6-10 records, or JR's draft record prior to the past few drafts.

It seems like your post is somewhat of an apologia for JR's performance, yet I can't believe that you really feel he's done an adequate job of addressing the OL in either FA or the draft over the years.

Is it our scouting of OL prospects? We certainly haven't hit on even one low round draft choice since DD. Is it an undervaluing of the position? Doesn't seem to me to be so, given the selections of Pugh and Flowers, some of our FA signings, and our likely pick of Conklin if he'd been there for us. So what exactly is it? Does it come back to scouting?

And, I can understand the cutting of Beatty, who didn't lay it on the line for the team last year. But why would you cut Schwartz, who is at least a relatively competent OG, and a guy who can at least fill in at OT?

Don't you think that something is wrong here?



Of course I'm not happy with the past few years. I've watched this team my whole life.

I just choose to take a step back, take a deep breath, and look at the big picture. I've seen this team win 4 Super Bowls, 2 in the past 10 years. Yet, we have posters fellating the Cowboys, who have won 2 playoff games in 20 years.

I just have a realistic view of things. Bad drafts happen, and they will happen in the future. Teams aren't built overnight.

The "past few drafts" (2014- Present..You know, after the messiah Gettlemen left) have resulted in 8 starters.

The off-season was a success. Of course we won't know until the games are real, but complaining about it seems like grasping at straws.

The OL simply isn't complete yet. Simple as that. It's easy to say "we should have drafted X player in x round".....The OL needs 2 more starters. We'll most likely have to wait until next year.

And if the OL was complete, the BBI twat-brigade would bitch about something else.

As I've stated before, it's as if 45% of BBI thinks it's 1986, 45% thinks it's Madden, 10% have a reasonable, big-picture view.

There are no complete teams in the NFL. Every team has issues.

If you can't see the drafting is trending upward, then you can't be helped.

Again, OL may have to wait another year. Unless of course, we trade for Anthony Davis, Sign a retired Monroe, and re-sign Beatty, who we cut, and is currently not playing on an NFL team. Brilliant.



Again, Davis probably wasn't available, but IF he was, are you trying to say it'd have been a bad move to get him on the team?

Can you justify that please? The only argument I can think of is questioning his commitment to football, but he did apply for reinstatement after a year (just like he said he did), and he immediately makes this team far more of a contender.

There were rumblings that Monroe retired because he couldn't find a team that would play him at LT. Would you rather have Flowers/Newhouse at tackle positions, or Monroe/Flowers? Monroe didn't retire right away - he was released.

Thirdly, stop trying to paint everyone with a broad brush. There are people, including myself, who are relatively happy with the GM and the moves the team has made that still think they have managed the offensive line horrendously. And many of us didn't just start talking about the O-line this last offseason, but since before the 2013 season.

You act as if this one offseason is in a bubble. Sure, circumstances change from season to season, but the O-line has been an issue for over 3 seasons now.

And to be honest, I do agree with you in one important way - the O-line IS one starter away from being decent to above average. And THAT is why it's so fucking maddening that Reese couldn't find a way to address it and finish the damn job off.

Jerry and Newhouse are not starters, and it's ridiculous for the Giants to go into the season with them penciled in.
Sonic. Davis is not (nor has ever been) available.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:06 pm : link
If Monroe could play LT in the NFL, he'd be playing LT in the NFL.

I get the frustration with the OL, I wish the OL was better.

We need a OT. They don't come easy. Just because you think a move should have/could have been made, doesn't make true.
RE: RE: Lastly  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13081709 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13081696 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


You can add Mitchell Schwartz to the list of players I'd have considered, provided the Giants could afford it. Also, I didn't realize that drkenneth was actually the OP who started this thread specifically to argue with people are ripping the GM.

The funny thing is I'm not even really ripping Reese that much. I think his moves were great this offseason, I just am not fully on board with Jenkins at that price, and more importantly think he hasn't finished the rebuild he started with the O-line.

He has mismanaged the O-line for years. As another poster said, it's been arguably the biggest problem with this team since 2013. We've had 3 offseasons, it should be rebuilt by now. I've been consistent in wanting to fix this for years. We only have a few more years of Eli left, and we need to do everything in our power to put the right pieces around him. I wanted Martin in 2014 (glad we got OBJ of course though), wanted them to sign Bualaga a year or two ago, wanted Alex Boone/Schwartz/Ouewhatever this year, and was happy they took a tackle when they took Flowers (the pundits said we reached by Reese nails his first round pick, so I have faith in him as a player).

It's just so strange to me that we spent 3 high draft picks on the OL in 2 years, but don't sign any FAs to "complete the set" so to speak.

Fixing the O-line should have been second priority this offseason (after bolstering the defense), and not one thing was done to address it.

It seems like drkenneth's statement is "well there was nothing they could have done to fix the O-line), and I don't think that's true.



So let's say the GM spend all-available resources on fixing the OL.

What about S?
What about #2 WR?
What about the DL and the pass-rush/Run defense?
What about CB?

You're acting like this team had one hole that needed to be fixed, and it was ignored (which it wasn't).

The current OL has two first rounders, and a 2nd rounder (all 3 drafted since 2013)

I'm not saying the OL is complete, or nothing more could be done. But, you're acting like OL are built over night. They aren't.

Look around the league. Everyone needs OL help. And this isn't Madden. You don't just go to the OT store and pick up what you need. Not everyone wants to play here. There are 31 other teams that have OL needs.

Would have loved a guy like Cordy Glenn (we should have drafted him), but he was not available.


Actually, no, that's NOT what I'm acting like. I'm acting like they didn't complete the job this year when they had an opportunity to.

And no, again, I'm not acting like there was one hole on the team (I literally said above there wasn't).

Your post is built on an unrealistic premise, because it would NOT take "all available resources" to fix the O-line. They needed one player, maybe two. They'd only need a guard if they at least hung on to Beatty to see what he could do. Besides, you said it yourself - there IS still cap room on this team, though a sizable portion needs to be earmarked for OBJ, JPP, and Hankins (in that order, IMO).

Basically these are the scenarios that I'd have mix and matched from to fill those holes (and keep in mind, the Giants actually DID do a lot of these moves).

S - My first choice would have been to sign Gipson, but if not, I'd have drafted a player (they did).

#2 WR - same as above, I'd have tried hard to sign Matthews, Sanu, Benjamin, or Kearse. Out of those players, I'd have targeted Sanu and Matthews because I think they are the best values. I'd probably still have drafted a WR in addition, so I wouldn't change the Sterling pick.

Defense - I like what they did on defense and have no qualms, but I've already gone over Prince vs Jenkins. My personal opinion is that I would have signed Hall and Prince, while still drafting Apple. I'd use the money that went to Jenkins to fix the OL. I'd aggressively explore a trade for Davis if I couldn't land an OL in FA. Did they? Was he even available? I have no idea, but I do know that Anthony Davis makes this team MUCH better, and IMO I'd rather have him than next year's 3rd round pick, which off the top of my head has actually historically been Reese's worst round.

So there you have it...I'd have probably made many of the same moves the Giants actually did make, but would have explored Gipson, Davis, and Sanu/Matthews to a much greater degree.

Personally, I'd rather have spent the money on Gipson than Jenkins considering it happened before the draft.
Thanks for responding, drkenneth.  
yatqb : 8/22/2016 3:10 pm : link
I agree with much of what you said there, but I find fault with our not having been able to hit on even one competent OL in the lower rounds since DD, and in letting Schwartz go without a backup plan. Whatever Solari told JR about Stingily and some of the other scrub offensive linemen he's coached elsewhere, I fault JR for not getting at least one more competent OL with whom to head into this season.

I suspect we'll add one or two more off waivers before the season starts (at least I hope so) but we're gonna be scrambling a lot all year to overcome a poor OL if we don't land someone who can play effectively. It's a shame to waste another year of Eli to a ineffective OL.
Ignoring the fact that someone who fancies himself  
Overseer : 8/22/2016 3:11 pm : link
part of the "reasonable 10%" employs phrases like "twat brigade", a reasonable/big picture perspective no doubt includes the understanding that Eli Manning is 35 1/2. So one can be forgiven for being less interested in the long term. Blake Bortles & Jags fans have 5+ years to wait while his team is built around him. It's conceivable that 2016 could be it for Manning. And likely that, say, 2018 will be.

Reese I'm sure knows this better than anyone. I simply can't imagine he's feeling good about the right side of the line or about the probable starting LT. Platitudes about there being no complete teams doesn't change that. Big difference on Sundays between serviceable players and bad ones. A bad LT can sink an entire season.
RE: Sonic. Davis is not (nor has ever been) available.  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 3:14 pm : link
In comment 13081729 drkenneth said:
Quote:
If Monroe could play LT in the NFL, he'd be playing LT in the NFL.

I get the frustration with the OL, I wish the OL was better.

We need a OT. They don't come easy. Just because you think a move should have/could have been made, doesn't make true.

And this is exactly why I'm saying the O-line woes aren't relegated to this offseason alone, and this is exactly why I'm saying I wouldn't have cut Beatty until training camp started.

Let's set aside the fact that there is probably some team chemistry related reason to cut Beatty (just for argument's sake)... what is the downside in bringing him back to try and sure up the ONE glaring hole we have on the line? What was the point of cutting him so early? It just doesn't make sense to me with the information we have available.

What's annoying about the tackle position is that this hole has been there for quite some time. When we had Beatty, we didn't have Flowers. We get Flowers, we cut Beatty.

In 2015, I'd have made a run at Bryan Bulaga, who can play both the guard and tackle spot. He's not a world beater per se, but he's versatile, and would not prevent the Giants from drafting Flowers. Signing Bulaga would give the Giants the flexibility to still build the line with the players they want, but at least cover their ass if they ended up with a hole at T or G.

While BBI has no shortage of reactionaries, it doesn't make sense to frame the critics of the O-line as being exclusively within that context.

it's been one of the weakest units on the team since 2013 and is arguably the most important unit on a football team. Are you really perplexed that people aren't satisfied that literally *nothing* was done to improve the unit?
You realize that there are 32 teams in the NFL, right?  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:16 pm : link
All 32 teams have $$$ to spend, and a lot of teams have OL issues.

I would have loved Cordy, Osemele, or Schwartz. Would have been great to add another upgrade on the OL. But it's clear those guys were never options, as there are 31 other teams vying for OL talent.

Below is a list of all FA OL signings for 2016.


OL FA 2016 - ( New Window )
RE: Thanks for responding, drkenneth.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13081736 yatqb said:
Quote:
I agree with much of what you said there, but I find fault with our not having been able to hit on even one competent OL in the lower rounds since DD, and in letting Schwartz go without a backup plan. Whatever Solari told JR about Stingily and some of the other scrub offensive linemen he's coached elsewhere, I fault JR for not getting at least one more competent OL with whom to head into this season.

I suspect we'll add one or two more off waivers before the season starts (at least I hope so) but we're gonna be scrambling a lot all year to overcome a poor OL if we don't land someone who can play effectively. It's a shame to waste another year of Eli to a ineffective OL.


No argument here! I would agree, it's frustrating that we haven't been able to find an OL in the middle rounds to star...(very frustrating)....not sure what the deal is there.
Given that we absolutely needed to upgrade a lot  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 3:20 pm : link
our pathetic D, the allocation of big bucks had to be earmarked to that side of the ball. Had to..

Besides, iirc, wasn't Mitchell Schwartz scooped up within hours?
RE: Terps- You're all over the place.  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13081592 drkenneth said:
Quote:
You're zigging when people are zagging.

It's your BBI shtick.

Dallas is "building something" yet their QB gets the shit beat out of him, and they've won exactly 2 playoff games in 20 years.

You talk about the Giants spending on "high priced FAs", then suggest spending $60+ million on a G and sign a 35 year old WR.

Then you bitch about spending a #2 on a WR to pair with Beckham.

I'm having a hard tie understand what the fuck your stance is. It's like your just taking shots in the dark here.


At no point did I bitch about drafting Shepard. I love the pick, and it's exactly what I would have done on draft day. Don't put words in my mouth and then whine that I have a shtick.

My concern is that we are leaving way too much on him right out of the gate.

The large point is this: we entered the off-season with enormous cap space. We are now concluding the off-season with enormous questions at wide receiver, offensive line, and tight end. These are the area that directly support the two players who will have the greatest say in the success or failure of this season.

How the hell does that happen?
RE: Ignoring the fact that someone who fancies himself  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:21 pm : link
In comment 13081738 Overseer said:
Quote:
part of the "reasonable 10%" employs phrases like "twat brigade", a reasonable/big picture perspective no doubt includes the understanding that Eli Manning is 35 1/2. So one can be forgiven for being less interested in the long term. Blake Bortles & Jags fans have 5+ years to wait while his team is built around him. It's conceivable that 2016 could be it for Manning. And likely that, say, 2018 will be.

Reese I'm sure knows this better than anyone. I simply can't imagine he's feeling good about the right side of the line or about the probable starting LT. Platitudes about there being no complete teams doesn't change that. Big difference on Sundays between serviceable players and bad ones. A bad LT can sink an entire season.


Agreed. I just think that if the D played AVERAGE last year, this team wins 8 games (they should have anyway)

You have to play the hand dealt. Let's hope a vet OL shakes loose.
RE: RE: Terps- You're all over the place.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13081763 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081592 drkenneth said:


Quote:


You're zigging when people are zagging.

It's your BBI shtick.

Dallas is "building something" yet their QB gets the shit beat out of him, and they've won exactly 2 playoff games in 20 years.

You talk about the Giants spending on "high priced FAs", then suggest spending $60+ million on a G and sign a 35 year old WR.

Then you bitch about spending a #2 on a WR to pair with Beckham.

I'm having a hard tie understand what the fuck your stance is. It's like your just taking shots in the dark here.



At no point did I bitch about drafting Shepard. I love the pick, and it's exactly what I would have done on draft day. Don't put words in my mouth and then whine that I have a shtick.

My concern is that we are leaving way too much on him right out of the gate.

The large point is this: we entered the off-season with enormous cap space. We are now concluding the off-season with enormous questions at wide receiver, offensive line, and tight end. These are the area that directly support the two players who will have the greatest say in the success or failure of this season.

How the hell does that happen?


No argument here. Best guess is another off-season draft/free agency, and the team makes a run at another SB with Eli in 2017/2018.

We're ignoring the injuries since 2011 as well (which BBI conveniently does). We have "enormous" questions at WR because our top trio (Nicks/Cruz/Manningham) are either out of the league (Nicks just cut again, career over at 28)

I've always said the biggest issue is the injuries. That's a big reason we haven't been able "to build something"
yatqb  
stretch234 : 8/22/2016 3:43 pm : link
How is it that 31 other NFL teams can develop 1 OL as a mid/late rd pick or UDFA. This team has not done it since Deihl.

That is a staff issue
RE: yatqb  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13081801 stretch234 said:
Quote:
How is it that 31 other NFL teams can develop 1 OL as a mid/late rd pick or UDFA. This team has not done it since Deihl.

That is a staff issue


We have a new staff.
Here's what I'd have done differently  
Modus Operandi : 8/22/2016 3:59 pm : link
a) Was not a fan Flowers as a prospect. I'm generally opposed to selecting OL in the first half of the first round who aren't balanced blockers - that is, skew heavily to either run or pass blocking but are raw the other way. Flowers was raw all around. I'm also not opposed to "reaching" for a player we like over who the draft shitheads say we should pick, but I thought Flowers was a first rounder based on potential only.

Alternate Decision: Trae Waynes, CB, Michigan St.

As this draft unfolded, it became clear that we missed out on some of the better prospects. It also doesn't appear as though we missed too badly here as there really isn't a guy drafted below our spot - with the exception of Gurley - who clearly outplayed Flowers in their rookie season. Gurley would not have been on my board. Even Waynes played little and had all of one start last season.

b) I would have let JPP walk. It isn't the $10M salary for 2016, which is actually quite reasonable for a starting DE. His run stopping was really the bread and butter, and I just don't see him being a two way DE anymore and don't understand the reason of kicking the can down the road another year. I dont want to hear about special gloves. No one is going to convince me that a guy missing two and a half fingers on his strong hand is going to generate the same kind of hand power and leverage.

[b]Alternate Decision: Let Odi start. It's a risky move considering his rookie campaign was a total loss due to injury, but he's a DE in the Tuck mold, capable of using his power to seal the edge. His pass rush would be a step back, perhaps, but I think it would be about a wash. It's time to see what he brings to the table.

c) Sign Osmele. I don't care that he's a guard. He's an ascending player who is only 27 y/o and a mauler in the run game and above avg. as a pass blocker. These types of guys just don't shake free.

d) Slide Pugh to LT. This isn't an ideal fit, but he's an adequate to better than avg. pass blocker. I do think he's better equipped to handle the edge against speed rushers and I feel better having him protect Eli's blind side.

e) Bring Prince back on a one-year deal. I think Prince gets a raw deal around here. He was a very solid CB when healthy. I get it, when was he healthy? But I'd bring him back for one more year and see whether he can play better healed and with a better S tandem.

f) With Waynes now entering his second year (2016) and Prince resigned for another year, I would have passed on Jenkins. I was not a fan of Jenkins coming out and nothing I've seen or heard about him since coming into the league has changed my mind. He's too risky a player for my liking - on and off the field. Five years, 62.5M for a guy who's among the most burned CBs in the league, and an immature shithead to boot? Pass.

g) I still go ahead and draft Apple, or William Jackson III (whom I preferred. Unfortunately, WJIII now has a torn pectoral and may be lost for the year...I like the Snacks and OV signings.

h) Sign Mitchell Schwartz.


Here's what team looks like:

OL: Pugh, Osemel, Richburg, Jerry, Schwartz

DL: Odi, Snacks, Hankins, Vernon

CB: DRC, Prince, Waynes, Apple (WJIII)

S: Collins, Thompson


Now this assumes the players coming in here want to come here. The money is just about a wash with what we actually did. Is this a better team? Know knows? Still lots of risks and question marks.
RE: You realize that there are 32 teams in the NFL, right?  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13081748 drkenneth said:
Quote:
All 32 teams have $$$ to spend, and a lot of teams have OL issues.

I would have loved Cordy, Osemele, or Schwartz. Would have been great to add another upgrade on the OL. But it's clear those guys were never options, as there are 31 other teams vying for OL talent.

Below is a list of all FA OL signings for 2016.
OL FA 2016 - ( New Window )

Yes, and if you offer more money than they were offered by those other teams, you can probably sign them.

You're implying that because there are other teams that also need OL help, we couldn't sign one?

You're all over the place here and literally saying anything to just argue with people who think our O-line should have been further addressed. Out of those three players, the only one who "wasn't an option" was Glenn because he was franchised. If the Giants offered a contract that was more than what other teams offered, they'd have a very good chance of signing them. I don't see how Schwartz and Osemele weren't options, I don't see why Bulaga last year wasn't an option, and the "31 other teams" excuse is really, really weak when you're talking about acquiring FA's. Nobody is saying every single FA in the world should be signed.
Check my previous post  
Modus Operandi : 8/22/2016 4:11 pm : link
Those moves would not be a wash. They'd add about $5M in salart - unless my math is off.
Re: Kelechi Osemele and Mitchell Schwartz.  
Klaatu : 8/22/2016 4:38 pm : link
It's easy to say we should have signed them, but you don't know if we reached out to their agents and were rejected from the get-go for one reason or another. They both signed with their new teams at the outset of free agency, so it looks to me like the deals they had were put in place during that legal/illegal start to free agency. It's not like they had multiple visits planned, or got any teams involved in a bidding war. Osemele went for the big bucks he wasn't going to get in Baltimore, and Schwartz went to KC, where his brother had some success. I really don't think we were in the picture for either of them.
RE: Here's what I'd have done differently  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 4:41 pm : link
In comment 13081842 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
a) Was not a fan Flowers as a prospect. I'm generally opposed to selecting OL in the first half of the first round who aren't balanced blockers - that is, skew heavily to either run or pass blocking but are raw the other way. Flowers was raw all around. I'm also not opposed to "reaching" for a player we like over who the draft shitheads say we should pick, but I thought Flowers was a first rounder based on potential only.

Alternate Decision: Trae Waynes, CB, Michigan St.

As this draft unfolded, it became clear that we missed out on some of the better prospects. It also doesn't appear as though we missed too badly here as there really isn't a guy drafted below our spot - with the exception of Gurley - who clearly outplayed Flowers in their rookie season. Gurley would not have been on my board. Even Waynes played little and had all of one start last season.

b) I would have let JPP walk. It isn't the $10M salary for 2016, which is actually quite reasonable for a starting DE. His run stopping was really the bread and butter, and I just don't see him being a two way DE anymore and don't understand the reason of kicking the can down the road another year. I dont want to hear about special gloves. No one is going to convince me that a guy missing two and a half fingers on his strong hand is going to generate the same kind of hand power and leverage.

[b]Alternate Decision: Let Odi start. It's a risky move considering his rookie campaign was a total loss due to injury, but he's a DE in the Tuck mold, capable of using his power to seal the edge. His pass rush would be a step back, perhaps, but I think it would be about a wash. It's time to see what he brings to the table.

c) Sign Osmele. I don't care that he's a guard. He's an ascending player who is only 27 y/o and a mauler in the run game and above avg. as a pass blocker. These types of guys just don't shake free.

d) Slide Pugh to LT. This isn't an ideal fit, but he's an adequate to better than avg. pass blocker. I do think he's better equipped to handle the edge against speed rushers and I feel better having him protect Eli's blind side.

e) Bring Prince back on a one-year deal. I think Prince gets a raw deal around here. He was a very solid CB when healthy. I get it, when was he healthy? But I'd bring him back for one more year and see whether he can play better healed and with a better S tandem.

f) With Waynes now entering his second year (2016) and Prince resigned for another year, I would have passed on Jenkins. I was not a fan of Jenkins coming out and nothing I've seen or heard about him since coming into the league has changed my mind. He's too risky a player for my liking - on and off the field. Five years, 62.5M for a guy who's among the most burned CBs in the league, and an immature shithead to boot? Pass.

g) I still go ahead and draft Apple, or William Jackson III (whom I preferred. Unfortunately, WJIII now has a torn pectoral and may be lost for the year...I like the Snacks and OV signings.

h) Sign Mitchell Schwartz.


Here's what team looks like:

OL: Pugh, Osemel, Richburg, Jerry, Schwartz

DL: Odi, Snacks, Hankins, Vernon

CB: DRC, Prince, Waynes, Apple (WJIII)

S: Collins, Thompson


Now this assumes the players coming in here want to come here. The money is just about a wash with what we actually did. Is this a better team? Know knows? Still lots of risks and question marks.


I guess you missed my post above. M. Schwartz was never in the go get him equation as he was gone within hours, possibly a day..We obviously were busy signing sorely needed D reinforcements..Not saying the OL wasn't a big need, just that the D HAD TO BE the priority
Right  
Modus Operandi : 8/22/2016 4:45 pm : link
Which is why I said, "assuming the players wanted to come here" at the end of my post.
RE: RE: How are the recent moves  
djm : 8/22/2016 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13081229 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13081215 drkenneth said:


Quote:


?



Because they are reactive and, to me, don't indicate that there is a larger plan in place to establish what type of team this is going to be both in the near term and the long term.

There's a difference between setting out to establish something, like say Dallas has done with their offensive line, and putting out fires.

What is this team trying to be?


So let me get this straight here. The Giants hire their possible HC of the future and a guy they love in McAdoo 3 years ago. Over the next 2 years they don't really spend any significant money in FA. They release or phase out the older aging or hurt vets and focus on building the younger players up and giving said younger players ample playing time while taking their lumps. They let Coughlin walk and promote the guy they loved and groomed for the last 2 seasons and finally, when all that cap room opens up because of said patience and lump taking, the Giants sign 3 defensive players all entering their 2nd contract and all coming off healthy solid 2015 campaigns.

And that's not a plan?

That's the very embodiment of a concrete plan that began back in the 2014 off-season. Oh, and the Giants still have a shit load of cap room.

This is fucking ridiculous. Just let the fucking season play out before obliterating a plan that's been 3 years in the making. Can we do that first or are some of you going to continue to lose their shit over a fucking preseason game?
Dallas is building a myth  
djm : 8/22/2016 4:55 pm : link
they are a joke. I can't take anyone seriously when they conjure up Dallas as some sort of construct to be emulated. They have had one good season over the last 6. Get that? ONE.

The Skins are the team to emulate. They actually won this division 2 times over the last 4 seasons.
RE: Right  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13081955 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
Which is why I said, "assuming the players wanted to come here" at the end of my post.


Ok
and I am not afraid to say it  
djm : 8/22/2016 5:06 pm : link
it's right in front of us. The DL is going to be great this season if we allow for the same chips to fall like any other team would allow with their supposed strength. The DL is going to be elite. The Giants took a weakness and turned it into a strength this off-season. The same NYG franchise that won super bowls on the back of an elite DL went out and tried to emulate what worked before.

There were not blue goose tackles available in FA. They There were no elite WRs or TEs available in FA. The Giants valued quality beef along the DL because it worked before and those guys were available in FA. I don't care how good that Raider guard is --i'd rather have the pass-rusher.

RE: So now we have a  
santacruzom : 8/22/2016 5:39 pm : link
In comment 13080635 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Sigh.


We'll, our past four years indicate we definitely have some sort of big personnel problem.
The OL-what would you have done as GM?  
johnboyw : 8/22/2016 5:46 pm : link
I would have signed Okung and told Flowers he was a RT for the foreseeable future. They weren't going to have to pay Okung "elite" LT money. I would have brought in a legit OG as a free agent to compete with Jerry and Hart at RG. Would have resigned a healthy Will Beatty and would have drafted Taylor Decker in the 1st round.
djm  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 5:47 pm : link
I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when in one post you say "Dallas is building a myth" and in another you say "our defensive line will be elite".

That is "Redskins fan in 2002"-level baseless, springtime champs bullshit.
RE: djm  
David in LA : 8/22/2016 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13082060 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when in one post you say "Dallas is building a myth" and in another you say "our defensive line will be elite".

That is "Redskins fan in 2002"-level baseless, springtime champs bullshit.


is it any easier to take you seriously when you refer to our FA signings as patching holes, when they're all players under 30, and came out with the best run stuffing DL and pass rusher available?
Patching holes is exactly what was done  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 5:59 pm : link
There were holes on defense, and players were brought in at great expense to occupy those areas.

We now have a very expensive defense that lacks a single elite player, and lacks depth everywhere.

But the line will be elite. Ok.
Vernon is 25 years old.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 6:01 pm : link
He's already played his best football?
So we got an elite run stuffer, and Vernon lead the league  
David in LA : 8/22/2016 6:02 pm : link
in pressures in the 2nd half of the season by a considerable margin, but neither of those guys are quite 'elite' enough for Go Terps.
OV must have set you off with a sack dance  
David in LA : 8/22/2016 6:03 pm : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 6:09 pm : link
I guess the Giants wasted their time plugging a hole with a player like Antonio Pierce back in 2005 because he wasn't "elite" if we're using this logic.
RE: Vernon is 25 years old.  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 6:15 pm : link
In comment 13082079 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
He's already played his best football?


No one knows. Anyone that says they know one way or the other is lying. We do know is he is among the highest paid non-QBs in the league. That we do know.
I prefer a strategy where you add  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/22/2016 6:23 pm : link
To already solid positions instead of filling holes. They should have signed a couple of stud QBs instead of pass rushers
RE: RE: Vernon is 25 years old.  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 6:37 pm : link
In comment 13082096 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13082079 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


He's already played his best football?



No one knows. Anyone that says they know one way or the other is lying. We do know is he is among the highest paid non-QBs in the league. That we do know.


This is every year. Next year someone will get a huge contract and then he'll be the new highest paid player at his position.

The Giants identified this player as a young, ascending talent who had his best years ahead of him.

I have seen you on countless occasions say that you'd prefer a front office to pay a player for what they will do here rather than what they did somewhere else. Have you not? Does that logic suddenly not apply here?

You're right, no one knows exactly what Vernon will do as a Giant but you take a risk when you sign basically any free agent. It's part of the process.

If the only signings you're okay with are low risk, low money deals for older veteran players or big money for elite players only and no one else.. you're going to be looking at a pretty short and disappointing list. Because when teams have elite players on their roster, they generally do what they can to retain them. See: Miller, Von.

I'm not really sure how else you expected the Giants to fill holes. You only get so many draft picks and the success rate is small on those. The entire point of free agency is to identify needs on your football team and sign players who can help fill those needs.
arc  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 6:50 pm : link
You're right, and I have no qualms paying top dollar for top quality players. And of course you'd rather get them at Vernon's age. I'm just not convinced we got a top player. We are paying him for what he's going to do here, but he's going to have to do amazing things to justify that contract. Just being a good player isn't enough. He has to be elite, and I'm not willing to assume he will be just because we all want him to be.

But what I've been saying is about the entire off-season. We had enormous resources at our disposal but are entering the season paper thin in key areas, particularly those that support our two best players. And for all that spending the defense doesn't figure to be top tier either.
If only we had Anquon Bolden.  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 7:10 pm : link
.
RE: Patching holes is exactly what was done  
djm : 8/22/2016 7:22 pm : link
In comment 13082076 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There were holes on defense, and players were brought in at great expense to occupy those areas.

We now have a very expensive defense that lacks a single elite player, and lacks depth everywhere.

But the line will be elite. Ok.


That is horse shit. Drc isn't elite? Vernon sure looks elite to me snd snacks isn't an elite DT?

I think the DL will be great this year if things fall into a pretty safe to predict place. You don't. But to say that this D has no elite players is just shite.
Actually I will correct one thing  
djm : 8/22/2016 7:24 pm : link
There was an elite or close to elite WR available this offseason and it was a guy I wanted to sign. Marvin jones. I didn't want anyone else. I wanted jones and may have preferred him over Jenkins but I won't lose sleep over it.

Terps...  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 7:24 pm : link
If Vernon is a disruptive force this year and notches 12 sacks to go along with a ton of pressures, are you really going to be upset with the signing?

He has to be very good to justify the deal but I don't think it's fair to basically say anything less than superstar production means it was a bad signing.
You and I have different definitions of elite  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 7:24 pm : link
.
And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
djm : 8/22/2016 7:30 pm : link
We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.
Simple question terps  
djm : 8/22/2016 7:33 pm : link
Is DRC an elite corner back? How many guys are better? 5?

DRC is a stud. If you can't see that you're blind.
RE: And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 7:36 pm : link
In comment 13082156 djm said:
Quote:
We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.


I am still one of those who believe JPP is at this point a decent to good player, nothing more..I don't see him as a disruptive force at all..Oh and I would be DELIGHTED to be wrong..😎
.  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 7:37 pm : link
If DRC were elite the Giants wouldn't have considered trading him this off-season.

He's so elite that he was on his fourth team by age 28.

He's been a good player for the Giants. Certainly better than I expected. But elite? No.
I shouldn't go there (Strahan)  
djm : 8/22/2016 7:38 pm : link
I've been wrong before too.

Let's just look forwrd to the season and pray things break right for this team for one fucking season. The Giants Org isn't filled with idiots contrary to what some insist on believing. They work hard and perform due dilliegence. There's strengths and weaknesses on this team. Most teams are in a similar spot. No one is perfect and very few teams dominate anymore. Giants can win this thing despite the holes. Denver won last year with a corpse at QB. The Giants won in 2011 with a laughable running game and fading oline.

Just win. Please.
I want to win too,  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 7:44 pm : link
which is why every time Beckham or any one of the offensive linemen come up limping I'm going to hold my breath. Because somehow after this off-season of riches there is almost nothing in the cupboard there that we know can perform.
FWIW...  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 7:48 pm : link
I don't think the Giants considering trading DRC has anything to do with his ability. If you believe the rumblings of some posters who have had legit info, there's a good chance he won't be here after this year. I have no idea what the issue is.. maybe it's money related, maybe it's something in his personal life.. but for whatever reason I've seen it mentioned more than once by reputable people here that he may not be here for some undisclosed reason.

Maybe he's not an "elite" player but he's probably the 2nd best player on this defense at worst depending on how Vernon performs.
RE: RE: And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 7:50 pm : link
In comment 13082162 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082156 djm said:


Quote:


We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.



I am still one of those who believe JPP is at this point a decent to good player, nothing more..I don't see him as a disruptive force at all..Oh and I would be DELIGHTED to be wrong..😎


You don't see him as a disruptive force at all? He was getting into backfields regularly with one arm last year.

He's better than "decent to good".. it won't take long for him to prove it. That man is on a mission this year and he's going to silence a lot of critics.
RE: Simple question terps  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 7:55 pm : link
In comment 13082159 djm said:
Quote:
Is DRC an elite corner back? How many guys are better? 5?

DRC is a stud. If you can't see that you're blind.
I think DRC is a really good #1 CB, but I do not think he is elite. I think there are very few elite players in the game. He is a stud, but I don't know about elite.

Elite is what I'd call the top 5 at your position, maybe 10 if there are 2 of your position starting.

At CB, DRC probably falls closer to the 10-15 range. Good player but not a perennial pro bowler. Off the top of my head, you have Patrick Peterson, Richard Sherman, Revis (still), Norman (arguable but he's in the conversation), Stephon Gilmore, and Marcus Peters... and probably more since I don't follow every team equally as close.

Elite is Eli in 2011... OBJ so far in his career... JPP in 2011, Strahan throughout his career, and Cruz/Nicks in '11 (moreso based on impact than stats).

That's just my own personal definition though, and I do agree DRC is a very good player and a very important part of this team.
Also, people are seriously downplaying JPP  
Sonic Youth : 8/22/2016 7:57 pm : link
The fact he even had an impact with the club and skin grafts literally coming off his hand last year is insane. He was actually arguably our best D-lineman last year even with that injury (I guess you could say Ayers, maybe Hankins pre injury, but the D changed with JPP on the field).

He's been very vocal about how his hand feels, and has had far more time for it to heal up, and for him to get used to it.

There will always be situations where he will be missing the impact of having those fingers, but I actually think he will get back to at least 90% of what he was before (or would have been if the fireworks incident never happened)... maybe even more.
RE: I want to win too,  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 8:02 pm : link
In comment 13082166 Go Terps said:
Quote:
which is why every time Beckham or any one of the offensive linemen come up limping I'm going to hold my breath. Because somehow after this off-season of riches there is almost nothing in the cupboard there that we know can perform.


How many teams in the NFL could win losing a talent like Beckham??

This isn't 1986. Some of you have a hard time with that. You act like every team in the league just stacks up pro bowlers and drafts starters in the 5th round like no big deal.

Like djm said, the Bronocs won a Super Bowl with a QB that had issues throwing a forward pass. I'd say that a pretty big fucking hole.

You have this "every move is the wrong one, except for mine" thing going on.
RE: RE: RE: And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 8:03 pm : link
In comment 13082170 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13082162 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082156 djm said:


Quote:


We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.



I am still one of those who believe JPP is at this point a decent to good player, nothing more..I don't see him as a disruptive force at all..Oh and I would be DELIGHTED to be wrong..😎



You don't see him as a disruptive force at all? He was getting into backfields regularly with one arm last year.

He's better than "decent to good".. it won't take long for him to prove it. That man is on a mission this year and he's going to silence a lot of critics.


I disagree. I think grabbing the QB or Runner will cause him problems..I am not convinced of all that much. My mind will not change until most of this year is over and he proves me wrong(hoping he does)..Or not
DRC is better than Norman but this is semenstics  
djm : 8/22/2016 8:04 pm : link
Elite great whatever you want to call him. DRC is one of the best corners in the NFL. Revis was traded. Twice. And He's awesome although he's slipping.
To be clear, I meant to include  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 8:07 pm : link
a mobile QB re difficult to grab hold of. A statue can be sacked with one hand
RE: RE: I want to win too,  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 8:15 pm : link
In comment 13082181 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13082166 Go Terps said:


Quote:


which is why every time Beckham or any one of the offensive linemen come up limping I'm going to hold my breath. Because somehow after this off-season of riches there is almost nothing in the cupboard there that we know can perform.



How many teams in the NFL could win losing a talent like Beckham??

This isn't 1986. Some of you have a hard time with that. You act like every team in the league just stacks up pro bowlers and drafts starters in the 5th round like no big deal.

Like djm said, the Bronocs won a Super Bowl with a QB that had issues throwing a forward pass. I'd say that a pretty big fucking hole.

You have this "every move is the wrong one, except for mine" thing going on.


I do? You might want to try reading some of your posts, even the ones that don't directly insult me.

The Broncos won the Super Bowl because they were absolutely stacked on one side of the ball. They had a unit that was actually elite.

We don't have that anywhere. We could have moved in that direction if we'd opted to reinforce things around the only two elite players that we have, but the GM opted to spend huge on defense in the hopes that less than elite players not only become elite themselves, but elevate the players around them.

I still only see two elite players on this team, and a supporting cast that can be good if a rookie pans out and there are no injuries at all on the offensive line.
*  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 8:17 pm : link
I should have said a supporting cast for those two elite players.

The offense just looks paper thin to me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
arcarsenal : 8/22/2016 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13082183 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082170 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13082162 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082156 djm said:


Quote:


We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.



I am still one of those who believe JPP is at this point a decent to good player, nothing more..I don't see him as a disruptive force at all..Oh and I would be DELIGHTED to be wrong..😎



You don't see him as a disruptive force at all? He was getting into backfields regularly with one arm last year.

He's better than "decent to good".. it won't take long for him to prove it. That man is on a mission this year and he's going to silence a lot of critics.



I disagree. I think grabbing the QB or Runner will cause him problems..I am not convinced of all that much. My mind will not change until most of this year is over and he proves me wrong(hoping he does)..Or not


It did last year when he was wearing an oven mitt on one hand and couldn't grab anything. If you've listened to him he says his hand feels the same as his healthy hand now. That doesn't mean it'll be exactly as it was before but he can actually make a fist now and grab hold with both hands. It's going to make a huge difference and enable him to finish a bunch of the plays he couldn't finish last year.

I think he's going to be a great story when all is said and done.
RE: DRC is better than Norman but this is semenstics  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13082184 djm said:
Quote:
Elite great whatever you want to call him. DRC is one of the best corners in the NFL. Revis was traded. Twice. And He's awesome although he's slipping.


When was Revis traded the 2nd time?

I know the Jets traded him to TB.

TB released him and the Pats signed him.

The Pats had an option they didn't pick up making him a FA and he signed back with the Jets.

Am I missing one?

not commenting on anything other than that one point that surprised me since I only remember the one trade. I could be mistaken.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: And if and when JPP leads this defense in 2016  
Big Blue '56 : 8/22/2016 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13082194 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13082183 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082170 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13082162 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082156 djm said:


Quote:


We can safely say you were so completely wrong about this guy it borders on the hilarious, terps. I'm hoping the universe pulls another Strahan 2007 moment for us all to behold. You remember that guy right? The same HOFer you ran the fuck out of town before that historical season even kicked off.

But I digress. Let's just see how these guys play together before we praise of condem anyone.

What drives me nuts is that this thread along with 10 more wouldn't eben exist if the Giants looked pretty good in a lousy fucking preseason game. Don't the Giants always lose to Rex Ryan in the preseason??? Too bad those games don't count. Rex's legend would be real and not some laugh track.



I am still one of those who believe JPP is at this point a decent to good player, nothing more..I don't see him as a disruptive force at all..Oh and I would be DELIGHTED to be wrong..😎



You don't see him as a disruptive force at all? He was getting into backfields regularly with one arm last year.

He's better than "decent to good".. it won't take long for him to prove it. That man is on a mission this year and he's going to silence a lot of critics.



I disagree. I think grabbing the QB or Runner will cause him problems..I am not convinced of all that much. My mind will not change until most of this year is over and he proves me wrong(hoping he does)..Or not



It did last year when he was wearing an oven mitt on one hand and couldn't grab anything. If you've listened to him he says his hand feels the same as his healthy hand now. That doesn't mean it'll be exactly as it was before but he can actually make a fist now and grab hold with both hands. It's going to make a huge difference and enable him to finish a bunch of the plays he couldn't finish last year.

I think he's going to be a great story when all is said and done.


Hope you're right
How was Terps wrong about JPP  
Modus Operandi : 8/22/2016 8:19 pm : link
He was opposed to resigning JPP at big dollars even prior to the hand issue and he's remained consistent. For a variety of reasons.

It can be argued that resigning him to even a one year, $10M deal is a bad idea, considering he had been inconsistent and several years removed from being the elite player he was during 2011.

Whether he is still a good player remains to be seen. The fact that he was the best player on a historically bad defense is not an argue mentioned I'd be making, however.
RE: *  
drkenneth : 8/22/2016 8:22 pm : link
In comment 13082193 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I should have said a supporting cast for those two elite players.

The offense just looks paper thin to me.


My apologies. Didn't mean to offend.

What offense can withstand losing a key player? Who isn't "paper thin" somewhere?

I'm still stuck on your "Dallas is building something" thing.
Pj  
djm : 8/22/2016 8:23 pm : link
I think you're right. Traded once and cut once. But he's elite. DRC isn't because there was some rumor that the Giants wanted to trade him. The whole idea that a player can't be elite if they were traded is nonsense I just wanted to point out that the best corner of our generation was told to hit the road twice.

Babe Ruth was traded.
RE: Pj  
pjcas18 : 8/22/2016 8:31 pm : link
In comment 13082204 djm said:
Quote:
I think you're right. Traded once and cut once. But he's elite. DRC isn't because there was some rumor that the Giants wanted to trade him. The whole idea that a player can't be elite if they were traded is nonsense I just wanted to point out that the best corner of our generation was told to hit the road twice.

Babe Ruth was traded.

No argument from me. I just was curious on the Revis comments.

Champ Bailey was traded too - maybe not quite in Revis class but he's a hall-of-famer IMO.
.  
Go Terps : 8/22/2016 8:34 pm : link
I didn't say Dallas is building something, I said they already have. Their offensive line is brilliantly assembled. It's a great unit around which a team can be built.
RE: RE: Easy  
skifaster : 8/23/2016 10:23 am : link
In comment 13081488 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13081465 skifaster said:


Quote:


I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)



Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?


The number #2 WR doesn't matter if Eli is looking out of the earhole of his helmet every other play because the O-line can't block. Haven't looked but I'm guessing it is easier to find a serviceable free agent WR to fill the #2 role.
and their defense is an abomination  
djm : 8/23/2016 10:24 am : link
they have no #2 WR to write home about and they have a QB that is a fart away from the glue factory. And they haven't won a fucking thing in 20 years, and only one legit winning season over the last 6. Yes, they have a wonderful OL that can't seem to keep the QB healthy but hey, who cares they are elite. ESPN told me so. Best OL to never win jack shit in the history of the NFL.

You'd think Dallas would have found a way to build a well rounded team by now. They haven't had to endure the attrition, career ending injury luck or post super bowl salary cap hell that a super bowl winning team has to typically endure. So what's their excuse? Why isn't Dallas so awesome? Shouldn't they have won more than 4 (Lol) games last season with all this OL talent that takes all the pressure off the skill players? What happened there?

RE: RE: RE: Easy  
djm : 8/23/2016 10:26 am : link
In comment 13082742 skifaster said:
Quote:
In comment 13081488 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 13081465 skifaster said:


Quote:


I would have drafted Cody Whitehair in the second round instead of Sharp.

There are a lot more fast guys who can catch the ball on the planet than there are fat mobile guys :)



Who's your #2 WR if we draft a G in the 2nd?



The number #2 WR doesn't matter if Eli is looking out of the earhole of his helmet every other play because the O-line can't block. Haven't looked but I'm guessing it is easier to find a serviceable free agent WR to fill the #2 role.


So the #2 WR wouldn't have mattered last season? The same team that was literally one play away from winning 4-5 more games didn't need an impact WR last season? They needed a better RT?

Do people actually believe what they post around here?
The problem last year...  
skifaster : 8/23/2016 10:54 am : link
...was the team's inability to control the clock with a ground game.
the team's problem last year  
djm : 8/23/2016 11:01 am : link
was they didn't score enough points when needed and didn't get stops when needed.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. You're telling me the Giants win the east last year if they add one more solid OL to the equation? You're gonna guarantee that while dismissing the impact another WR would have had?

Want to go back and re-examine 2011? That team was even worse at running the ball than last year's team.

The Giants lacked TALENT. They lacked talent across the board. If anything the one constant last year was in fact the OL. It wasn't great by any stretch but it was OK.

The D was historically bad. I don't care if the 83 Hogs and 90 NYG OL joined forces and ran out there for the 2015 Giants. They still don't stop anyone and don't win a fucking thing. See 2014 Dallas for proof. That team had a wonderful offensive season. They were blessed injury wise. And they still shit the bed come playoff time.
RE: the team's problem last year  
Sonic Youth : 8/23/2016 1:38 pm : link
In comment 13082829 djm said:
Quote:
was they didn't score enough points when needed and didn't get stops when needed.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. You're telling me the Giants win the east last year if they add one more solid OL to the equation? You're gonna guarantee that while dismissing the impact another WR would have had?

Want to go back and re-examine 2011? That team was even worse at running the ball than last year's team.

The Giants lacked TALENT. They lacked talent across the board. If anything the one constant last year was in fact the OL. It wasn't great by any stretch but it was OK.

The D was historically bad. I don't care if the 83 Hogs and 90 NYG OL joined forces and ran out there for the 2015 Giants. They still don't stop anyone and don't win a fucking thing. See 2014 Dallas for proof. That team had a wonderful offensive season. They were blessed injury wise. And they still shit the bed come playoff time.
Controlling the clock actually would have helped mitigate a bad defense. Less opportunities for the other offense. They actually may have won 3-4 more games if you put that 90s O-line on there (adjusted for athletic inflation)
2014 Dallas got ripped off in Green Bay  
Go Terps : 8/23/2016 1:46 pm : link
That Cowboy team was really good; better certainly than anything we've had for a while.
The best way to fix a bad defense is to keep it off the field  
skifaster : 8/23/2016 5:04 pm : link
I think part of the reason the Giants lost so many close games last year was because of all the three and outs by the offense.

By the 4th quarter the D was gassed.
RE: 2014 Dallas got ripped off in Green Bay  
djm : 8/23/2016 5:17 pm : link
In comment 13083156 Go Terps said:
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That Cowboy team was really good; better certainly than anything we've had for a while.


Lol. Never mind the previous week when Dallas was gifted a win against the lions and please go ahead and ignore the FACT that Aaron Rodgers mom walked the packer offense down the field to seal the playoff win over Dallas and even if Dez is given that TD Dallas still loses because they couldn't stop jack shit.

You're so wrong it's not even funny anymore. Keep at it.
Mom walked should be moon walked  
djm : 8/23/2016 5:19 pm : link
Fuck my iPhone.

Let me remind everyone again that snacks Harrison is not elite and neither is Vernon. But some gusrd on Oakland is.

RE: The best way to fix a bad defense is to keep it off the field  
djm : 8/23/2016 5:20 pm : link
In comment 13083380 skifaster said:
Quote:
I think part of the reason the Giants lost so many close games last year was because of all the three and outs by the offense.

By the 4th quarter the D was gassed.


Agreed. It's good to have talent across the board. Let's just move on.
This is not specifically pertinent to this thread, but.  
Frank from CA : 8/23/2016 5:41 pm : link
Why haven't the Giants hired a special scout that focuses on O-Line? Since Eli's last SB Run he's suffered through bad O-Lines. I feel the pain of Giants fans who wonder why there was such a failure in acquiring at least serviceable players for the line in the past five seasons. Would a guy like Lomas Brown who has seen it all have some insight on analyzing prospects who have the requisite talent? I am humbled at the failure to address both lines in the draft and lower cost FA for both lines in the past five years.
djm  
Go Terps : 8/23/2016 5:46 pm : link
You're comfortable ripping the 2014 Cowboys, who went to the playoffs and were a controversial call from the conference championship game.

Yet on the other hand you're also comfortable stating as fact that the Giants' defensive line WILL be elite in 2016.

It's tough to see you as anything other than a pollyanna fan.
RE: RE: 2014 Dallas got ripped off in Green Bay  
David in LA : 8/23/2016 5:47 pm : link
In comment 13083400 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13083156 Go Terps said:


Quote:


That Cowboy team was really good; better certainly than anything we've had for a while.



Lol. Never mind the previous week when Dallas was gifted a win against the lions and please go ahead and ignore the FACT that Aaron Rodgers mom walked the packer offense down the field to seal the playoff win over Dallas and even if Dez is given that TD Dallas still loses because they couldn't stop jack shit.

You're so wrong it's not even funny anymore. Keep at it.


Vinatieri is worth a 1st round pick to GT, but Vernon isn't "elite" enough.
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