NFT: Buffalo writer cries salty ham tears over Jimmy Vesey

has proven he is the best goalie, but he's also proven to be injury prone.

Looking at how that team fell apart after losing him and that torrid start is enough reason to put him atop the list.

He's probably going to be healthy enough for the world cup then get hurt.

In comment 13081620 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 13081616 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Sharks opened up at 80-1 odds last year. Penguins were 25-1 as of late February. There are probably ~5 'favorites' with 12-15 additional teams that could plausibly make a run if things break right (I'd throw the Islanders/Rangers in this category). Top ten goalies according to NHL.com. Lundqvist #6. Their lists are terrible. NHL - ( New Window ) I agree. Pekka Rinne should be ahead.

Geddafuckouttahere

is on the list.

His team won a cup without him that they probably wouldn't have won with him IMO. He lost his only post-season start I believe.

or may not be, I'm getting more than a few laughs at the frequent description in media pieces and other team's blogs of the Rangers as an "aging" team. The Rangers have two forwards over the age of 30 on the roster, and one of them is Glass. The majority of the likely top 3 line candidates are 26 or younger - Stepan (26), Kreider (25), Hayes (24), Lindberg (24), Miller (23), Zibanejad (23), Vesey (23). Zuccarello is 28 and Nash is 32, and of course there's probably a decent chance Nash gets traded before the season begins. Yes, Hank isn't young, and Girardi and Staal play like 60 year old men now, but there's a lot of young talent.

In comment 13081001 BrettNYG10 said:

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lol @ this: Quote: Repeating: You were watching a player who was someone else’s property and just waiting to pounce. Not cool.

So now it's wrong to scout players? Jesus, this guy sounds like such a pussy

In comment 13081720 Greg from LI said:

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or may not be, I'm getting more than a few laughs at the frequent description in media pieces and other team's blogs of the Rangers as an "aging" team. The Rangers have two forwards over the age of 30 on the roster, and one of them is Glass. The majority of the likely top 3 line candidates are 26 or younger - Stepan (26), Kreider (25), Hayes (24), Lindberg (24), Miller (23), Zibanejad (23), Vesey (23). Zuccarello is 28 and Nash is 32, and of course there's probably a decent chance Nash gets traded before the season begins. Yes, Hank isn't young, and Girardi and Staal play like 60 year old men now, but there's a lot of young talent.

I think it's because people still feel like Hank "is" the Rangers. As Hank goes so do they. And when people say look at this young talent the Rangers will be competitive the next 5 years (as I've read on here after signing Vesey), reality is Hank turns 35 next season so I wouldn't guarantee any competitiveness the next 5 years.

Nash is 32 and maybe he's traded or not, but he's arguably the best all around forward on the team, even if he struggled statistically in 2015.

I don't underestimate someone like Kreider, you guys know I feel he should be elite, but he's not (and I'm not saying Nash is). Stepan? Maybe he's the best forward? Zuccarello? none of them are stars IMO.

but people who say the Rangers are old probably do so because their best player is old, and their arguably best forward is old and the top 4 D average age is probably 30 until Skjei cracks the top 4 and the young talent hasn't reached their potential.

And that limits them, but on the other hand they are a deep group of good young forwards so they should remain in playoff contention for a while.

Their biggest problem is the D, and that's going to be a tough one to solve.

I don't think the current roster would be a playoff team if they had an average goaltender. I think one of the stats guys ran numbers that suggested Lundqvist adds 6 or so wins a year, if you want to quantify it. If Lundqvist declines to average, I don't think the team is competing. Realistically, I think you can count on 2-3 more seasons of elite play. But that doesn't mean he immediately goes to shit. And who knows about the young G prospects they've got.

Theoretically, I don't think the D is that hard to solve, but it might take an off-season. Ideally, trade Nash or another forward for a young top-four guy, and have some mix of Skjei, new guy, Klein, McDonagh in your top four. If you have to wait a year, buy out Girardi and use that money to sign someone else.

More practically, I'm skeptical of the Rangers ability to evaluate defensemen - particularly when it comes to projecting aging curves. Gorton may different from Sather in this regard, however.

But I think the Rangers will continue to get above-average goaltending so long as he's on the job. Raanta played well in limited time last year, Talbot was great in not-so-limited time the year before that, and Shestyorkin has a lot of talent.

he's a nice player, but he'll be 32 middle of this season. Doubt we'd get much in return though.

I keep thinking there's a trade with St Louis that could make sense for both teams - something like Hayes & Klein for Shattenkirk and a 1st. Kind of a lot to give up for maybe just 1 year of Shatty, but Hayes is only locked up for 2 years himself.

They have a surplus of top 9 forwards and a dearth of defensemen. Buchnevich's deal lets him walk rather than be sent to Hartford. Something's gonna give.

after he reportedly payed such a big hand in getting Vesey. Might not go over so well.

Plus I'm excited about the prospects of those two playing on a line together, given their familiarity.

They have what you want -- lots of quality. Maybe no Luongo type prospect, but most very good goalies arent on that level as prospects. I really think what separates goalies at the top is the mental side and prep, and that is something that isnt usually measurable at age 18 or 19.

A good starter should shake out of the 5 prospects we have, and some of those guys have potential to be top 10.

I can buy that, Greg. It's just unlikely we get 'best Goaltender the past decade' caliber. Who knows what the team will look like in 2020 anyway?

I'm not a big fan of trading Hayes for Shattenkirk - a cost-controlled asset with upside for a guy who will make market value is a bad risk, IMO. I'd much rather trade Nash for one of the Ducks young dmen (not Fowler).

.

Vesey, Duclair, and Buch would made a hell of a next gen core.

ready to contend he eats up a huge amount of cap space that can make it difficult for them to make moves.

In comment 13081803 Greg from LI said:

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They have a surplus of top 9 forwards and a dearth of defensemen. Buchnevich's deal lets him walk rather than be sent to Hartford. Something's gonna give.

Surplus? Stepan, Zib, Hayes down the middle. Kreider, Nash, Miller, Zucc, Buch, Vesey on the wing. I have no idea what to make of Grabner or Gerbe. Grabs probably a 4th liner, Gerbe a 13th forward? Lindberg can center the 4th line when he returns, or slide up to replace an injured player/move Hayes over.

In comment 13081815 Greg from LI said:

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.

Right. Cloutier and then Montoya were supposed to be the goalies of the future. And then Hank just happened. A guy like Huska could totally end up being a goalie you ride for 5-10 years.

for Shattenkirk in a second.

I just don't have a ton of use for big dude forwards who don't play like big dudes.

if you don't use your size - and I don't mean fighting, you might as well be a 5'10 185 pound gritty guy.

It's funny because you see the small-ish guys like Brad Marchand and Brendan Gallagher (who I am sure are hated by opposing teams) who constantly play on the edge like they have a Napoleon complex, and guys like Hayes who play like they could have a carton eggs all game and not break one.

Kreider is the exception which is why he's so intriguing and maddening. He wants to be physical and has the size speed and skills, but just hasn't clicked yet.

Anyway, my point is cost control is great, but Hayes is replaceable and IMO even redundant with Vesey now so I'd trade him for Shattenkirk or better. And if they feel it would be disloyal to trade Hayes then trade another of the depth forwards. Though not sure you get Shattenkirk back for another one unless you weaken your team.

In comment 13081753 Greg from LI said:

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And that limits them, but on the other hand they are a deep group of good young forwards so they should remain in playoff contention for a while. Their biggest problem is the D, and that's going to be a tough one to solve.

Funny how just a few years ago, our D was viewed as our biggest asset (besides Hank) and a young unit with a lot of potential.

.

In comment 13081805 Kyle in NY said:

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after he reportedly payed such a big hand in getting Vesey. Might not go over so well. Plus I'm excited about the prospects of those two playing on a line together, given their familiarity.

Very good point, forgot about that Hayes-Vesey connection. I still think some sort of deal for Shattenkirk makes sense - but maybe the Wild or Ducks are good fits too, and you sign KS next offseason.

I just think this upcoming season we're more likely to miss the playoffs than go deep into them with the current defensive cast... but I do love the job Gorton has done to position us 2-4 years from now.

deej - you didnt mention Fast above. Maybe he is 4th line but i do think he can be a very good 3rd liner if asked to. Also not sure if Jensen can contribute this season on the bottom lines.

is Josh Joorish the Rangers' third line center to start the season?

He's most likely the 4C, at least until Lindberg is healthy. Stepan, Zibanejad, and Hayes are most likely 1-3 Cs.

It's a tryout in name only. He's going to fulfill AV's requisite "grit" on the 4th line (he's also a better faceoff guy and pk'er than Jooris).

Jooris will be sent down, while Gerbe, Hrivik and Jensen fight for that last spot, because Glass will still be around.

vigorous

In comment 13081849 Greg from LI said:

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.

correct

He had a fairly bright future, I think. Played decently as a teenager backing up Richter.

that doesn't put Henrik and Price at some combo of the top two goalies should have their credentials revoked immediately.

Hayes is frustrating but I wouldnt put him in Brian Boyle territory just yet. He uses his big frame to shield the puck well. He's just not a throw your weight around power forward. Im somewhat hopeful that last year was a sophmore swoon and next year he goes back and builds on the rookie campaign. After 45 points in 79 games as a rookie, including a very very strong 2nd half (63 points/82 game pace), he looked like he had the makings of a 65-75 point center for his prime.

I think he can still get there. I dont want to make a lot of excuses for him because he has real fault for last season. But the team was just broken, and the Ds in particular were bad with breakouts. As a rookie, Hayes was at his best when he was set up to enter the zone with speed and possession.

In 4 years Hank will be pushing 40 or at least 38.

Vesey is a 2 year deal, sure he'll be an RFA, but still no guarantees he doesn't go the path of past Hobey Baker winners (I don't think he will but the hockey world has been wrong before) or they just can't afford him as an RFA after two years. Because so is Hayes and JT Miller (who I like too) - RFA's.

Nash is gone, one way or the other he's only under contract 2 more years.

Kreider is done in 4 years (per contract).

McDonagh turns 30 in that time and is only here 3 more years (per contract).

But Girardi and Staal are here long-term.

I view the Rangers as just the opposite, if they don't win in the next 2 - 4 years they need some major reconstruction.

Of course there are goalie prospects and who knows one could be the next Hank, but unless the Rangers turn Buchnevich into Crosby or Kane I view them as peaking now if they didn't peak already.

That is why I trade Hayes for Shattenkirk or I would have looked for a way to get Trouba or another young two-way defenseman.

Makes everyone on D better when they can bump down a notch.

In comment 13081909 Greg from LI said:

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vigorous

True, but as much as we'd like to see an offensive minded speed oriented 4th line, AV will have someone with "some bite" back there and since Lapierre has a decent faceoff %, I'll bet he gets a contract and a spot to start the season.

Yeah, Shattenkirk might have to wait a year and that's ok. Hopefully we show ourselves to be a team back on the rise this season with this young forward group and Shatty will be the missing piece next offseason.

We need to get a bit lucky with this defense to be able to really contend this season. But maybe Skeji proves to be a young McD and is a borderline 1st pair guy by midseason? He certainly showed flashes of that ability stepping in during the playoffs last season.

Or maybe one of Staal and Girardi bounces back with their first long offseason of rest in 5 years and at least is able to play at a respectable level.

In comment 13081926 Deej said:

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Hayes is frustrating but I wouldnt put him in Brian Boyle territory just yet. He uses his big frame to shield the puck well. He's just not a throw your weight around power forward. Im somewhat hopeful that last year was a sophmore swoon and next year he goes back and builds on the rookie campaign. After 45 points in 79 games as a rookie, including a very very strong 2nd half (63 points/82 game pace), he looked like he had the makings of a 65-75 point center for his prime. I think he can still get there. I dont want to make a lot of excuses for him because he has real fault for last season. But the team was just broken, and the Ds in particular were bad with breakouts. As a rookie, Hayes was at his best when he was set up to enter the zone with speed and possession.

I blame AV for some of Hayes sophomore slump, but I blame AV for a lot in NY.

He's the only reason I could come up with for Vesey to avoid NY. But he's a smart enough I think to pick up the defensive nuances quickly.

Nash is a guy who is big, and not really physical, but man Nash is so good without the puck, and so fundamentally sound if Hayes can do that then he's got a ton of value, but he plays like a smaller player IMO.

next 2-4 years

but wont because Dolan would never allow it (and it will be the wrong time in Gordon's job cycle).

It's really impossible to gauge what they'll be in 2 years. So many big guys who can actually skate (to varying degrees) but arent grade A offensive talents. Kreider, Miller, McDonagh, Skjei, Ziba, Hayes. I feel like that is the making of a great team but it lacks the 2 top end guys you need -- which are obviously the hardest to get. But even without those top players guys, if they could somehow land a PMD and get very lucky with Hank's successor, they could be interesting. Those Torts teams won a lot of games with Hank and not much offensive talent.

Not even sure where he played last season.

But it wouldn't surprise me if he got the Jarrett Stoll Memorial 4th line spot to start the season before it becomes truly obvious that he's toast and Lindberg comes back.

Plus this gives me an excuse to post this video
Miss you, Brassard :( - ( New Window )

I think a lot depends on whether a forward or two really breaks out. The obvious ones IMO are Hayes, Kreider, Buch, and maybe Vesey (I really dont know a lot about him). I wouldnt say any one of them is LIKELY to be an all star, but each has the talent to get there. Rangers could really use some guys turning into 60 or 70 point players.

In comment 13081953 Deej said:

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I think a lot depends on whether a forward or two really breaks out. The obvious ones IMO are Hayes, Kreider, Buch, and maybe Vesey (I really dont know a lot about him). I wouldnt say any one of them is LIKELY to be an all star, but each has the talent to get there. Rangers could really use some guys turning into 60 or 70 point players.

to me Kreider is the frustrating one. I watch the individual components of his game and I see him having the same individual skills as Jonathan Toews or Ryan Getzlaf - maybe not the hockey IQ, but he just hasn't put it together. Like above with Hayes I blame AV.

as what we think he can be, given his physical skills. But in today's scoring climate, a 45-50 point player like him is a borderline first liner for a lot of teams. I think he's almost become a bit underrated by some. And he's still only 25

In comment 13081951 Kyle in NY said:

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Not even sure where he played last season.

Sweden and Switzerland

and we've seen a number of times that PFs just take longer to develop. I wont predict it, but Im not going to be surprised if he has a season where he is the talk of the league. Like 35 or 40 goals, terrorizing defenses with his speed, and just imposing himself physically. But to get there he needs (1) Ds who can execute zone exits, and (2) to be less afraid of throwing his weight around.

He needs better coaching. He needs a western Canadian coach to tell him to forget his reputation, just fucking run at everyone. The team will deal with suspensions and majors. Just be Adrian Peterson on skates.

In comment 13081975 Deej said:

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and we've seen a number of times that PFs just take longer to develop. I wont predict it, but Im not going to be surprised if he has a season where he is the talk of the league. Like 35 or 40 goals, terrorizing defenses with his speed, and just imposing himself physically. But to get there he needs (1) Ds who can execute zone exits, and (2) to be less afraid of throwing his weight around. He needs better coaching. He needs a western Canadian coach to tell him to forget his reputation, just fucking run at everyone. The team will deal with suspensions and majors. Just be Adrian Peterson on skates.

I wouldn't be surprised in fact as mentioned I'm surprised he hasn't already, but I doubt it happens with AV as coach.

Unless the team shocks everyone and kicks ass this year, I am really hoping Vigneault gets the ax this year.

if he doesnt turn it around, buyout just seems so likely. Cap savings will only be a net 2-2.5 million, but spreading the money out is pretty helpful.

But more importantly, in real cash terms he'll be owed $10 million, meaning his actual take on a buyout is $6.7 million. Is there some way they could convince him to retire instead, take $2 million a year from MSG, and essentially be in the same position? I dont think he's getting another NHL job if he's bad enough to buy out. Wishful thinking/cap circumvention?

In comment 13081927 pjcas18 said:

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In 4 years Hank will be pushing 40 or at least 38.

I meant Gorton has done an excellent job ensuring that this team will be able to compete for a Cup from 2018-2020 (2-4 years from now), e.g. Hank's final years in the NHL. Without the Kreider extension, the Zibanejad trade, the Vesey signing... we were looking at 1-2 more years tops before it got pretty rough around here.

Beyond that none of us have the faintest clue... i do think its tough to compete for what would be about 15+ consecutive years without high-end draft choices to build around... but who knows, i mean goalie is probably the single easiest position to get lucky on with a low round draft pick.

In comment 13082021 MetsAreBack said:

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In comment 13081927 pjcas18 said: Quote: In 4 years Hank will be pushing 40 or at least 38. I meant Gorton has done an excellent job ensuring that this team will be able to compete for a Cup from 2018-2020 (2-4 years from now), e.g. Hank's final years in the NHL. Without the Kreider extension, the Zibanejad trade, the Vesey signing... we were looking at 1-2 more years tops before it got pretty rough around here. Beyond that none of us have the faintest clue... i do think its tough to compete for what would be about 15+ consecutive years without high-end draft choices to build around... but who knows, i mean goalie is probably the single easiest position to get lucky on with a low round draft pick.

I agree with that, but I also think that goalie is like a QB in football, he's the one position on the ice that can single-handedly sink your team.

So if you're banking on youth in net and you're wrong, it's hard to overcome.

the last Vesey thread got me in a load of trouble...Enjoy the guy fellas