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Interesting comments from Pat Kirwan...

That’s Gold, Jerry : 8/23/2016 8:19 am
A Giant fan called MTC yesterday wanting to talk about the Giants' OL. Kirwan said if it were up to him he would move Flowers to RT and he thought he would become the best RT in the NFL. He said his biggest concern is the ability to get Newhouse off the field but there is just no one out there. He mentioned Jake Long although I was somewhat confused because I thought Long had signed somewhere else. At any rate, he said there is simply no depth out there and the Giants are not the only team facing this issue.

He said he is worried Eli will get hurt. Certainly, I think a lot of us share that concern.

Lastly, he said that he would take all those carries Andre Williams got last year and give them to Jennings. He said the Giants looked best last year when they decided to just give Jennings the ball. Williams, he says, is just a plodder.

For what it's worth...
Jake Long had a deal in place with Baltimore.  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 8:23 am : link
But he refused to sign an injury waiver and the deal was scrapped. He's still a free agent.
they key point  
UConn4523 : 8/23/2016 8:26 am : link
is that its not just the Giants. It doesn't excuse anything of course, but I think it escapes many Giants fans.
The Giants know where he's best suited  
Big Blue '56 : 8/23/2016 8:27 am : link
on the OL..Let's play for a moment..Is Pat suggesting that a Jake Long, with his present history and long past his prime, would be a better option NOW at OLT than a still young, still learning and aggressive EF? Do I understand this correctly?
RE: they key point  
nygiants16 : 8/23/2016 8:31 am : link
In comment 13082487 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is that its not just the Giants. It doesn't excuse anything of course, but I think it escapes many Giants fans.


Didn't Patriots have 3 undrafted guys and a converted tight end playing on their offensive line in the playoffs?

the Packers have not had a good offensive line in years...
everyone always says you need a running game and great old to win  
nygiants16 : 8/23/2016 8:37 am : link
but the Giants won a super bowl with an average defense, no running game and a shit offensive line...

the Patriots have never had a great running game...

Packers offensive line has been terrible...

the Cowboys had the best running game and best oline in football 2 years ago and they did not win a super bowl...

it has and always will come down to the quarterback, no one gives eli any credit but without him giants do not win either super bowl, especially 11
great ol  
nygiants16 : 8/23/2016 8:38 am : link
..
the list is long  
UConn4523 : 8/23/2016 8:38 am : link
Pats have had problems, Packers have stunk probably longer than we have on the O-Line, Falcons and Saints have been poor. San Diego and Indianapolis have been dreadful.

What's funny is each of these teams has a bonafide franchise QB so the "wasted Eli" years is such a stretch.
RE: The Giants know where he's best suited  
The_Boss : 8/23/2016 8:40 am : link
In comment 13082489 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
on the OL..Let's play for a moment..Is Pat suggesting that a Jake Long, with his present history and long past his prime, would be a better option NOW at OLT than a still young, still learning and aggressive EF? Do I understand this correctly?


Let's say for arguement sake that Long is 75-80% the player he was, whether that is a result of injuries, age, or both. After watching Flowers and Newhouse last year for 16 games, mostly poor reviews in camp practice, and 2 awful performances in preseason games, can you say with some level of confidence that Newhouse or Flowers are better right now than a compromised Jake Long? Flowers isn't hurt and actually looks worse than last year. And that's saying a lot when, if you remember, both he and Newhouse graded out among the worst starting OT's in the sport. The NYG have looked at Long in the spring last. Bring him in for a workout to, at the very least, gauge where he's at physically. Maybe there will be more of a sense of urgency if the Jets' talented front dominates our OL this coming weekend, which at this point seems highly likely, given the state of affairs on the OL. I'm sure the plan is to see what shakes free when the rosters are trimmed, but the odds of finding a starting RT there are slim.
I completely agree  
mattlawson : 8/23/2016 8:41 am : link
Pat is one of the best analysts out there
MATTLAWSON  
optimist : 8/23/2016 8:44 am : link
And he'll be the first one to tell you that he has erasers on ALL his pencils.
Don't you think the Giants haven't thought of this already?  
UConn4523 : 8/23/2016 8:46 am : link
They have been burned too many times by injured linemen who are penciled in at starting positions, they don't want that anymore. Why add Long when he's been more injured than Beatty? He also has been red flagged by the Ravens who really needed OL help too. What else am I missing here?
You are missing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 8:48 am : link
that people have heard his name before. He's a Long! That's usually all it takes for some to want to sign guys on the OL these days.
And put it this way UCONN...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 8:49 am : link
people here spent the better part of last year wondering how we could put up with Beatty and Schwartz not being able to play.

But what is a common solution proposed here? Sign Beatty and complain that Reese was asleep at the wheel to retain Schwartz. I just don't get it.
I agree with him  
mfsd : 8/23/2016 8:52 am : link
about Andre Williams
OL  
stretch234 : 8/23/2016 8:52 am : link
There is a reason Jake Long is still out there - he is beat up. He has not played a full season since 2010. If he really had something left he would be signed

We heard the same things from Snee about finally being healthy, etc. He is beat up
RE: You are missing..  
The_Boss : 8/23/2016 8:57 am : link
In comment 13082514 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that people have heard his name before. He's a Long! That's usually all it takes for some to want to sign guys on the OL these days.


He is in no way related to Howie, Chris, or Kyle Long.
I'd rather go into it with fully healthy guys  
UConn4523 : 8/23/2016 8:59 am : link
then some washed up vet who will be gimpy by week 3 and out by week 8. Then what? Put in the guy with no reps at LT or RT? Unless we sign someone who'e relatively healthy I really have no interest.

As for Williams, I have no idea how McAdoo will use him, no one does. I think we all want Jennings, Vereen, and Perkins to get touches over him.
I didn't say he was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 9:00 am : link
people have heard his name before and if you don't think some here think he's Howie's kid, you underestimate the posters here.

Some analysts talked about him before, so he must be good!

That's the general way fans choose which linemen they like.
6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 9:06 am : link
and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO
I'm fairly certain  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 9:13 am : link
that if the Giants knew Flowers would be the best RT in the NFL, they'd play him there.
The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 9:15 am : link
They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.
I may be mistaken but didnt we have the 8th ranked offense  
bigblue1124 : 8/23/2016 9:19 am : link
in the league last year? And the second worst D in league history? The o-line will be a work in progress no question but some here sound like it was the only issue we had coming into this year. Signing older damaged player’s imo is not the way this team wants to go otherwise Beatty would still be on this team.

I really like PK but sometimes he talk's about things he has zero clue about. He has zero heartbeat on this team didnt due his camp tour with them. Like I said I like him but he knows nothing about this team this year other than what we have all read from beat writers and watching camp film.
RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/23/2016 9:19 am : link
In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:
Quote:
They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.


It may simply be me and I love PK, but the last few years he seems to be off a bunch of times, imo
RE: everyone always says you need a running game and great old to win  
SwirlingEddie : 8/23/2016 9:21 am : link
In comment 13082498 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but the Giants won a super bowl with an average defense, no running game and a shit offensive line...

the Patriots have never had a great running game...

Packers offensive line has been terrible...

the Cowboys had the best running game and best oline in football 2 years ago and they did not win a super bowl...

it has and always will come down to the quarterback, no one gives eli any credit but without him giants do not win either super bowl, especially 11


The Patriots rushing efficiency as measured by Football Outsiders ranked 4th, 4th and 6th respectively from 2011-2013.
link - ( New Window )
RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 9:22 am : link
In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:
Quote:
They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.


I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!

It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.

Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.
On WIlliams  
Bill L : 8/23/2016 9:23 am : link
I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.
the Pats are always an exception to the norm  
UConn4523 : 8/23/2016 9:23 am : link
teams generally have no idea how to play them (kudos as always to BB and Brady). They simply make it work like no other team does, but I would never use them to justify my stance on something, or i'd atleast caution it. They simply work differently then every other team in the NFL by a significant margin.
RE: RE: they key point  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/23/2016 9:32 am : link
In comment 13082491 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082487 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is that its not just the Giants. It doesn't excuse anything of course, but I think it escapes many Giants fans.



Didn't Patriots have 3 undrafted guys and a converted tight end playing on their offensive line in the playoffs?

the Packers have not had a good offensive line in years...


Neither of those situations worked out well for those teams, either. Offensive line issues were factors the entire year.
give Jennings all those carries and he'l be in the hospital  
Victor in CT : 8/23/2016 9:33 am : link
by week 6.

Flowers is a young player who will have growing pains, but the talent, drive and nastiness are all there. Leave him the fuck alone. They have a lot worse problems than Ereck Flowers on offense. Getting a TE who actually knows how to block would go a long way towards helping the running game.
RE: On WIlliams  
Simms11 : 8/23/2016 9:34 am : link
In comment 13082580 Bill L said:
Quote:
I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.


I agree and I'm also not sure what Kirwan is talking about. Williams looks a lot more like an NFL Running Back this year IMO. If anyone is the plodder, it's Jennings.
RE: RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/23/2016 9:35 am : link
In comment 13082579 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.



I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!

It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.

Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.


The only argument you can make here is for Clady, who is a chronic injury risk.

If Russell Okung was any good, Seattle would have kept him. But since he's a name, everybody assumes he's a solution.

Wilson was under pressure a lot last year, and Okung played a healthy part in it.
RE: On WIlliams  
Victor in CT : 8/23/2016 9:35 am : link
In comment 13082580 Bill L said:
Quote:
I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.


Agree. This was a lazy report by Kirwan. He obviously hasn't watched the film from the 2 preseason games.

The Giants problem offensively last year was that they couldn't run out the clock, couldn't get that key 1st down and be able to run another 2 minutes off the clock.
RE: RE: On WIlliams  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/23/2016 9:36 am : link
In comment 13082612 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082580 Bill L said:


Quote:


I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.



I agree and I'm also not sure what Kirwan is talking about. Williams looks a lot more like an NFL Running Back this year IMO. If anyone is the plodder, it's Jennings.


Williams absolutely was a muscled up plodder last season. Not sure how you can say any different. He was really bad.
RE: RE: RE: On WIlliams  
Bill L : 8/23/2016 9:42 am : link
In comment 13082622 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13082612 Simms11 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082580 Bill L said:


Quote:


I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.



I agree and I'm also not sure what Kirwan is talking about. Williams looks a lot more like an NFL Running Back this year IMO. If anyone is the plodder, it's Jennings.



Williams absolutely was a muscled up plodder last season. Not sure how you can say any different. He was really bad.
That wasn't the statement. The statement was about his frame this year and performance this preseason.
I absolutely believe  
Old Dirty Beckham : 8/23/2016 9:44 am : link
Flowers future is at RT. But I'm not moving Pugh or signing a guy like Long to move him.

It is what it is at this point. The Giants had a ton of holes to fill this summer. They couldnt fill them all.

I expect them to complete the Oline next summer and they'll be legit contenders the next few years. Hopefully this year will be a playoff year to get some young guys playoff experience.
RE: RE: RE: RE: On WIlliams  
chris r : 8/23/2016 9:44 am : link
In comment 13082639 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13082622 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13082612 Simms11 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082580 Bill L said:


Quote:


I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.



I agree and I'm also not sure what Kirwan is talking about. Williams looks a lot more like an NFL Running Back this year IMO. If anyone is the plodder, it's Jennings.



Williams absolutely was a muscled up plodder last season. Not sure how you can say any different. He was really bad.

That wasn't the statement. The statement was about his frame this year and performance this preseason.


Not based on the OP.
RE: I may be mistaken but didnt we have the 8th ranked offense  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 9:45 am : link
In comment 13082573 bigblue1124 said:
Quote:
in the league last year? And the second worst D in league history? The o-line will be a work in progress no question but some here sound like it was the only issue we had coming into this year. Signing older damaged player’s imo is not the way this team wants to go otherwise Beatty would still be on this team.

I really like PK but sometimes he talk's about things he has zero clue about. He has zero heartbeat on this team didnt due his camp tour with them. Like I said I like him but he knows nothing about this team this year other than what we have all read from beat writers and watching camp film.

If you ask around here, our 8th ranked offense was really "around 20" considering all the factors involved.
RE: give Jennings all those carries and he'l be in the hospital  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 9:46 am : link
In comment 13082611 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
by week 6.

Flowers is a young player who will have growing pains, but the talent, drive and nastiness are all there. Leave him the fuck alone. They have a lot worse problems than Ereck Flowers on offense. Getting a TE who actually knows how to block would go a long way towards helping the running game.

Agreed 100%
Enough with the FLowers thing, why is everyone focusing on him  
PatersonPlank : 8/23/2016 9:52 am : link
I have never heard 1 player say that Flowers will not be a very good LT in this league. No player is saying that Newhouse is any good (of course they seem to change the subject rather than come out with it). However no one says leave him along he's a good player.

Flowers is improving and is no where near a top worry here. RT, TE, RB, 3rd WR, LB, and S are all bigger issues. Like Eli, Flowers will be fine.
RE: I'm fairly certain  
The_Boss : 8/23/2016 9:53 am : link
In comment 13082558 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that if the Giants knew Flowers would be the best RT in the NFL, they'd play him there.


Remember, this is the same FO that thought Pugh was a better player than Kyle Long. Long, who is just as versatile as Pugh, has been to 3 Pro Bowls to start his career. I don't think Pugh ever gets to one. This is also the same FO who ran to the podium in record time like they just committed a robbery to overdraft Flowers at 9, with the eventual ROY (and obvious BPA) going to the Rams with the next pick. You can add in their reluctance to move Flowers and not bringing in anyone on the OL (FA, draft, UDFA). When it comes to evaluating OL, I am very skeptical of this FO.
RE: RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 10:01 am : link
In comment 13082579 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.



I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!


Who were the qualified LTs that Reese let walk away? Okung? The minute he got hurt you and others like you would be killing Reese for signing another injury-plagued veteran. Penn? He never got to the table. He blew us off and re-signed with Oakland before we even had the chance to meet. Am I leaving anyone out? Oh, and as far as I know, no one on the Giants ever said that Flowers is the next Orlando Pace, but it's clear that they believe he can play LT in this league, and they're not going to close the book on that after one season.

Quote:
It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.


Or, it's a combination of a couple of bad drafts, plus an inordinate amount of catastrophic, career-ending injuries to key players, many of them high draft picks. Perhaps you could look at JR's drafts during his tenure as GM, compare them with other GMs during the same period, factor in unforeseen events such as Plax shooting himself in the leg, Chad Jones' car accident, and JPP blowing his fingers off, along with the aforementioned injuries to key players like Kenny Phillips and Hakeem Nicks, among others, and then get back to me.

As for the $200 million, it was money well spent in my opinion.

Quote:
Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.


Perhaps it's time to sit quietly and see if JR can turn things around completely, as other GMs who've slipped have done. His drafting has been much better for the past couple of years, and he set himself up to make a huge splash in free agency when it was needed. Do I think he's perfect? Hardly. I'm still pissed that he didn't re-sign Kawika Mitchell. I don't always agree with him, but I refuse to take a knee-jerk, "FIRE REESE" position just because he failed to upgrade the O-Line at a time when it simply wasn't in the cards in free agency or the draft. The Giants couldn't address every one of their issues in one offseason, and I'm willing to wait and see how the team performs this year, and give JR another offseason to correct any problems that may still remain.
Possible college prospects  
MarvelousMike : 8/23/2016 10:10 am : link
Not being a follower of college football, but what is the current depth of OL going to be for next year's draft?? Maybe JR knows about this and planning to go for one or two players next year.
RE: Possible college prospects  
The_Boss : 8/23/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13082719 MarvelousMike said:
Quote:
Not being a follower of college football, but what is the current depth of OL going to be for next year's draft?? Maybe JR knows about this and planning to go for one or two players next year.


It's very early but other than the 2 obvious "can't miss guys" (Robinson at Alabama and Johnson at FSU), Walterfootball has it as a down year for OT's. Chances are, unless the NYG are catastrophically bad, they won't be drafting either without trading assets to move up.


Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 10:36 am : link
In comment 13082692 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13082579 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.



I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!



Who were the qualified LTs that Reese let walk away? Okung? The minute he got hurt you and others like you would be killing Reese for signing another injury-plagued veteran. Penn? He never got to the table. He blew us off and re-signed with Oakland before we even had the chance to meet. Am I leaving anyone out? Oh, and as far as I know, no one on the Giants ever said that Flowers is the next Orlando Pace, but it's clear that they believe he can play LT in this league, and they're not going to close the book on that after one season.



Quote:


It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.



Or, it's a combination of a couple of bad drafts, plus an inordinate amount of catastrophic, career-ending injuries to key players, many of them high draft picks. Perhaps you could look at JR's drafts during his tenure as GM, compare them with other GMs during the same period, factor in unforeseen events such as Plax shooting himself in the leg, Chad Jones' car accident, and JPP blowing his fingers off, along with the aforementioned injuries to key players like Kenny Phillips and Hakeem Nicks, among others, and then get back to me.

As for the $200 million, it was money well spent in my opinion.



Quote:


Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.



Perhaps it's time to sit quietly and see if JR can turn things around completely, as other GMs who've slipped have done. His drafting has been much better for the past couple of years, and he set himself up to make a huge splash in free agency when it was needed. Do I think he's perfect? Hardly. I'm still pissed that he didn't re-sign Kawika Mitchell. I don't always agree with him, but I refuse to take a knee-jerk, "FIRE REESE" position just because he failed to upgrade the O-Line at a time when it simply wasn't in the cards in free agency or the draft. The Giants couldn't address every one of their issues in one offseason, and I'm willing to wait and see how the team performs this year, and give JR another offseason to correct any problems that may still remain.


This is hardly a knee jerk "Fire Reese" reaction. In fact I was a Reese defender all the way through 2013 (probably a year too long) because I understood all of the freak injuries and what not.

He took FAR too long to finally begin investing in the OL (between rounds 1 and 2) and his mid to late round picks have been garbage over the years at both OL and LB and that is a big reason why the roster deteriorated to the point where the team's BEST work was 6-10 each of the past two seasons.

His draft picks from 2008 through 2012 (especially in the early rounds) were of the "Let me outsmart all of the other GM's in the league" variety instead of just modestly building a roster focusing on the first and second line of defense and the offensive line.

Sure he drafted JPP which may one day turn out to be a genius move...so far it's a C+ move at best (especially where he was picked).

How about the successive picks of David Wilson and Reuben Randle (Rds 1 & 2)? Do you think we could've had a solid starting OL with either or both of those picks? How about an LB with one of them?

Flowers at #9 overall?! He damn well better ascend to at least Orlando Pace' neighborhood before all is said and done otherwise it's one of the biggest reaches in the history of Giants drafts.

Sorry but I was a Reese apologist for too long and IMHO he's become arrogant and stubborn with a philosophy that doesn't work. Has he reversed that trend with the past two drafts? Or this past one? We'll see, I mean the guys job should be on the line so maybe he's had a moment of clarity.

But make no mistake...he made this mess...and he did it with the clock ticking on the career of a 2X SB MVP who has proven he can carry this team to titles with the right supporting cast. It would be a travesty to waste this opportunity to get at least one more ring on Eli's watch.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: On WIlliams  
Bill L : 8/23/2016 10:38 am : link
In comment 13082646 chris r said:
Quote:
In comment 13082639 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13082622 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13082612 Simms11 said:


Quote:


In comment 13082580 Bill L said:


Quote:


I think he's making his evaluation on last year's body. He has not looked like a plodder to me this preseason. He's had lemons in front of him so it's hard to judge but I feel like there has been more lemonade than there has been with anyone else so far.



I agree and I'm also not sure what Kirwan is talking about. Williams looks a lot more like an NFL Running Back this year IMO. If anyone is the plodder, it's Jennings.



Williams absolutely was a muscled up plodder last season. Not sure how you can say any different. He was really bad.

That wasn't the statement. The statement was about his frame this year and performance this preseason.



Not based on the OP.
I suppose it's not worth arguing about. But the thread is contained here and careful reading will show you that nobody was talking about the OP, other than to say that I believe that Kirwan making a statement based upon obsolete information. We had moved on to this season and then TTH then brought us back to last year, which was not the topic. Not sure why you're jumping in to muddle things further.
it's so obvious to everybody else  
SHO'NUFF : 8/23/2016 10:38 am : link
but the Giants.
RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
BillT : 8/23/2016 10:40 am : link
In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO

6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.
RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 10:44 am : link
In comment 13082786 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.


Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?
RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
BillT : 8/23/2016 10:49 am : link
In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?

So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 10:51 am : link
Quote:
Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


Are you saying that Reese should have foreseen these major injuries to players that previously weren't injured, or were you expecting him to be the only GM in the NFL with serviceable 5th stringers?

The GM's responsibility is gathering talent and maximizing it. But when you lose Phillips, Wilson, Nicks, Smith, Cruz, Ballard, Jones, Thomas, to career altering or career ending injuries and think that's just easily overcome, I don't know how to reasonably debate it.

If you want to say the risks of Beason (who was had for only a 7th), Baas and Schwartz didn't pay off, that';s fair, but the reason we are behind the 8 ball stocking the team is because we lost almost a dozen starters or future starters to significant injuries.
RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/23/2016 10:53 am : link
In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty)


That's a ridiculous comment.

"New to the Giants are quarterbacks coach Frank Cignetti, wide receivers coach Adam Henry, offensive line coach Mike Solari, defensive line coach Patrick Graham, assistant defensive line coach Jeff Zgonina, linebackers coach Bill McGovern, assistant special teams coach Dwayne Stukes and strength and conditioning coach Aaron Wellman."
RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 10:56 am : link
In comment 13082797 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.


Have some competent depth ready to step up by drafting something more than garbage between rounds 3-5. That should've taken care of it.
RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 10:59 am : link
In comment 13082806 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty)



That's a ridiculous comment.

"New to the Giants are quarterbacks coach Frank Cignetti, wide receivers coach Adam Henry, offensive line coach Mike Solari, defensive line coach Patrick Graham, assistant defensive line coach Jeff Zgonina, linebackers coach Bill McGovern, assistant special teams coach Dwayne Stukes and strength and conditioning coach Aaron Wellman."


We were discussing the offensive line, so there is nothing ridiculous about the related coaching changes that I pointed out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
BillT : 8/23/2016 11:01 am : link
In comment 13082816 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082797 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.



Have some competent depth ready to step up by drafting something more than garbage between rounds 3-5. That should've taken care of it.

That neither answers the question (shocked) nor is it in anything but absurd to think that we'd have drafted a dozen good starters between rounds 3-5.
For Christ's sake..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 11:01 am : link
they have a new offensive line coach!

Are you being purposely dense?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:03 am : link
In comment 13082825 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13082816 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082797 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.



Have some competent depth ready to step up by drafting something more than garbage between rounds 3-5. That should've taken care of it.


That neither answers the question (shocked) nor is it in anything but absurd to think that we'd have drafted a dozen good starters between rounds 3-5.


You pointed out 3 players who were injured, better mid to late round drafts should provide a pipeline to competently back-up 3 players for any serviceable GM....Or was I supposed to assign a number to ETC.?
RE: For Christ's sake..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:04 am : link
In comment 13082826 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
they have a new offensive line coach!

Are you being purposely dense?


So you're implying that Solari is the problem?

Whose being dense?
To Bruce (Big Blue '56)...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 8/23/2016 11:05 am : link
no Pat wasn't suggesting Long at all except that he is the best alternative. The question obviously is, can he still play? Pat was just trying to show that there is not much out there, if anything at all. So we are kind of stuck with what we have.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
BillT : 8/23/2016 11:07 am : link
In comment 13082833 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082825 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082816 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082797 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.



Have some competent depth ready to step up by drafting something more than garbage between rounds 3-5. That should've taken care of it.


That neither answers the question (shocked) nor is it in anything but absurd to think that we'd have drafted a dozen good starters between rounds 3-5.



You pointed out 3 players who were injured, better mid to late round drafts should provide a pipeline to competently back-up 3 players for any serviceable GM....Or was I supposed to assign a number to ETC.?

So you're admitting you're ignorant of the extent of the Giants injuries over the last half dozen years? That's ok. No one though you had any real answers or had a reasonable position.
Are you guys going to seriously sit here  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:08 am : link
and go at my posts stating the obvious?

Our Giants don't have enough talent along the OL with a SB winning QB in his prime and not enough talent at LB.

Am I missing something here? Do you guys REALLY believe that Reese has done a great job at building this roster?

Maybe I am dense...I will admit to it if you can walk me through my error in thought.

Go for it! I'll keep an open mind.
I'm not implying Solari is the problem,..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 11:11 am : link
I'm implying you have a problem analyzing things:

Quote:
6-10, and 6-10
andrew_nyg : 9:06 am : link : reply
and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


They have a new OL coach. They have a new conditioning coach. They have a bunch of new staff. You made a bullshit statement that the team has been 6-10 and 6-10 with no real changes made (well except for two pretty big coaching changes!)

And furthermore, you're assuming that the line play is shitty based on two preseason games (one of which the starting OL left with a 10-0 lead).

Just some horrific analysis by you on this thread, including not understanding the very significant impact injuries played on the team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:13 am : link
In comment 13082840 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13082833 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082825 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082816 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082797 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082791 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082786 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 13082544 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and no real changes to the staff (save for Coughlin and Flaherty) no real upgrades to the OL from last year is an indictment on their level of expertise on the OL, IMO


6-10, and 6-10 for two of three straight most injured teams in the league. Teams that had already lost guys like TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc.



Isn't putting healthy players on the field part of the responsibility of building the team?


So can you explain just how Reese is responsible for the injuries to TT and Phillips and Nicks, etc. Just what did he do or not do that lead to this. Just a broad outline will do.



Have some competent depth ready to step up by drafting something more than garbage between rounds 3-5. That should've taken care of it.


That neither answers the question (shocked) nor is it in anything but absurd to think that we'd have drafted a dozen good starters between rounds 3-5.



You pointed out 3 players who were injured, better mid to late round drafts should provide a pipeline to competently back-up 3 players for any serviceable GM....Or was I supposed to assign a number to ETC.?


So you're admitting you're ignorant of the extent of the Giants injuries over the last half dozen years? That's ok. No one though you had any real answers or had a reasonable position.


BillT what's with the insults?

If you read through my posts you will see that I am very aware of the injury history and was in fact a staunch supporter of JR right through 2013.

I'm simply stating that if he took a workmanlike approach to building this roster with some true anchors along each side of the line and at LB over the past 4-6 seasons, the roster would not need a $200M infusion this off season and still need 2/5ths of an offensive line.
RE: everyone always says you need a running game and great old to win  
giantgiantfan : 8/23/2016 11:13 am : link
In comment 13082498 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but the Giants won a super bowl with an average defense, no running game and a shit offensive line...

the Patriots have never had a great running game...

Packers offensive line has been terrible...

the Cowboys had the best running game and best oline in football 2 years ago and they did not win a super bowl...

it has and always will come down to the quarterback, no one gives eli any credit but without him giants do not win either super bowl, especially 11


That really was an outlier though and that defense overachieved in the playoffs shutting out Atlanta and playing good against an explosive 15-1 Green Bay offense. The most anyone scored on them was 20 points....
In a vacuum..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 11:18 am : link
this might be a decent outlook:

Quote:
'm simply stating that if he took a workmanlike approach to building this roster with some true anchors along each side of the line and at LB over the past 4-6 seasons, the roster would not need a $200M infusion this off season and still need 2/5ths of an offensive line.


So, if Reese took a workmanlike approach, he'd have solid LB's and bookend tackles. So, how would he have addressed losing Nicks, Cruz and Smith? Remember, one of those players under the "workmanlike approach" isn't Beckham.

You'd have a top LB and have to watch dogshit cover him at CB and S due to injuries. Probably no DRC under this "workmanlike approach". Need another CB for TT and a safety for Phillips.

Basically, you want LB's and OL because they are the weak links on the team. Meanwhile, we very well could be 6-10 and 6-10 and you'd bitch about gaping holes at WR, DB or S.
RE: Are you guys going to seriously sit here  
BillT : 8/23/2016 11:22 am : link
In comment 13082842 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
and go at my posts stating the obvious?

Our Giants don't have enough talent along the OL with a SB winning QB in his prime and not enough talent at LB.

Am I missing something here? Do you guys REALLY believe that Reese has done a great job at building this roster?

Maybe I am dense...I will admit to it if you can walk me through my error in thought.

Go for it! I'll keep an open mind.

I think the overall talent on this roster is as good as any in the division. And that is with the loses due to injury that those other teams didn't have. Is it a perfect roster? No. Neither is anyone else's. The rebuild of the defense is remarkable. Best talent in the division, easily. And the LBs certainly aren't a problem and have show signs (Kennard and Castillas) of being a plus.

The offensive skill positions are competitive with any in the division. The OL, for comparison's sake, isn't worse that Dallas' secondary or Philly's offensive skill players for example.

This is a competitive team resurrected from a six years of disastrous injuries for which there is no comparison anywhere in the NFL.
RE: In a vacuum..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:23 am : link
In comment 13082870 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this might be a decent outlook:



Quote:


'm simply stating that if he took a workmanlike approach to building this roster with some true anchors along each side of the line and at LB over the past 4-6 seasons, the roster would not need a $200M infusion this off season and still need 2/5ths of an offensive line.



So, if Reese took a workmanlike approach, he'd have solid LB's and bookend tackles. So, how would he have addressed losing Nicks, Cruz and Smith? Remember, one of those players under the "workmanlike approach" isn't Beckham.

You'd have a top LB and have to watch dogshit cover him at CB and S due to injuries. Probably no DRC under this "workmanlike approach". Need another CB for TT and a safety for Phillips.

Basically, you want LB's and OL because they are the weak links on the team. Meanwhile, we very well could be 6-10 and 6-10 and you'd bitch about gaping holes at WR, DB or S.


Speaking of a vacuum...
You're making a lot of assumptions as to what and who would be around and or not available.

Do you REALLY think that making better decisions on LB's and OL means that you forsake other talent at different positions?

Cruz was a street FA (lucky right?)

My point is not everything needs to be done in the 1st and 2nd rounds. Look at how many fliers were taken on mid to late round DB's...you think we could've found a decent OL or two in there? Maybe another David Diehl?

I'm a fan like you, so I don't have all of the answers...but I'm not getting paid to build this roster.

Are you happy with the OL?
Andrew  
BillT : 8/23/2016 11:25 am : link
Apologies if that was over he line.
I'm fine with the OL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 11:30 am : link
given that the league's worst D needed to be fixed.

I also realize that you simply cannot have top quality players at every position. You have tradeoffs. People love to knock the state of the LB's and OL, but often fail to acknowledge the WR's that have been found. the DL that has been found. The quality signings of DB's.

They expect a roster stocked at every position.

The fixes on D should be a 3-4 game upgrade vs. last year and should be good enough to make the playoffs. And the OL is adequate enough to maintain the offense's top 10 ranking. So much overreaction to 2 preseason games as if it clearly continues the recent past.
RE: Andrew  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:30 am : link
In comment 13082890 BillT said:
Quote:
Apologies if that was over he line.


Thanks for the apology. I am just here to have a spirited discussion. I rooted for and supported JR for years...I really wanted him to be one of the best GM's in the league.

I think he thought he was a little too soon and got a bit cocky and made some high risk moves...my opinion.

I think you and I have had some discussions over at the other board...and I believe I have always held a reasonable position.
RE: RE: Andrew  
BillT : 8/23/2016 11:33 am : link
In comment 13082899 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082890 BillT said:


Quote:


Apologies if that was over he line.



Thanks for the apology. I am just here to have a spirited discussion. I rooted for and supported JR for years...I really wanted him to be one of the best GM's in the league.

I think he thought he was a little too soon and got a bit cocky and made some high risk moves...my opinion.

I think you and I have had some discussions over at the other board...and I believe I have always held a reasonable position.

Absolutely, and I think my above response to your question is reasonable as well.
RE: I'm fine with the OL..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:44 am : link
In comment 13082896 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
given that the league's worst D needed to be fixed.

I also realize that you simply cannot have top quality players at every position. You have tradeoffs. People love to knock the state of the LB's and OL, but often fail to acknowledge the WR's that have been found. the DL that has been found. The quality signings of DB's.

They expect a roster stocked at every position.

The fixes on D should be a 3-4 game upgrade vs. last year and should be good enough to make the playoffs. And the OL is adequate enough to maintain the offense's top 10 ranking. So much overreaction to 2 preseason games as if it clearly continues the recent past.


Yes the leagues worst defense needed to be fixed...that didn't fall at the feet of the GM?

Tell me...other than Beckham (and possibly the rookie Shepherd) who are all these great receivers on the roster that we had to invest in in place of OL?

I'm not asking for TOP quality at every position, simply competent starters complimented by a few great players.

JR spent a #9 overall on a LT...do you expect a #9 overall to become a great player? Or is it okay if he is merely competent? Because right now there are questions for both.

Yes, the defense looks good and we may even have some decent LB's this season. But that cost $200M plus a 1st round pick. Why did it need to come to that? Injuries alone?
I think there were poor decisions mixed in as well.

With all those improvements what if they end up on the field most of the game because of two maybe more lineman who aren't getting the job done? I don't think it will garner a 3-4 game improvement in that case. Do you?

Is there a chance the OL pulls it all together and we have a contender again? I'm certainly praying for it. In the end my point is, there were a lot of mistakes made with respect to building the roster over the past 4+ years. Let's hope the light went on and the GM's home again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 11:51 am : link
BillT said:




In comment 13082797 BillT said:


So you're admitting you're ignorant of the extent of the Giants injuries over the last half dozen years? That's ok. No one though you had any real answers or had a reasonable position. [/quote]

Agreed BillT I don't ever assume a statement to be unreasonable unless of course its an outright attack.

I was simply referring to the above statement.
What??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 11:53 am : link
Quote:
Tell me...other than Beckham (and possibly the rookie Shepherd) who are all these great receivers on the roster that we had to invest in in place of OL?


Beckham and Shepard are two top picks - taht had to be made to replace Nicks, Smith, and Cruz.

It isn't like they filled the spots with 7th rounders.

Are you really minimizing the value of picks in the top rounds, because that's some serious investment in one position and it was fully due to injuries.
RE: What??  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 12:03 pm : link
In comment 13082971 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Tell me...other than Beckham (and possibly the rookie Shepherd) who are all these great receivers on the roster that we had to invest in in place of OL?



Beckham and Shepard are two top picks - taht had to be made to replace Nicks, Smith, and Cruz.

It isn't like they filled the spots with 7th rounders.

Are you really minimizing the value of picks in the top rounds, because that's some serious investment in one position and it was fully due to injuries.


Did you REALLY just ignore every point that I made in our discussion to try and take something out of context regarding the receiving corps?

Are you just in it for the sound bytes and insults or do you REALLY want to have a discussion?

You commented on ALL of the resources that we dedicated to receivers and the fact that we have so many. We spent a 1st on Beckham and a 2nd on Shepherd (who BTW hasn't proven anything yet). I asked a fair question: Other than a start and an unproven rookie: Who are all these great receivers that we had to invest in?

Can you not acknowledge that perhaps I'm offering some valid positions here? Or would you like to continue to cherry pick and take things out of context?

It's no wonder you didn't take on the balance of my response.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
BillT : 8/23/2016 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13082960 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
BillT said:




In comment 13082797 BillT said:


So you're admitting you're ignorant of the extent of the Giants injuries over the last half dozen years? That's ok. No one though you had any real answers or had a reasonable position. [quote]

Agreed BillT I don't ever assume a statement to be unreasonable unless of course its an outright attack.

I was simply referring to the above statement.

Thought I already apologized for that. I was referring to a response from you on my 11:22 post.
We had to invest in Beckham and SS to  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 12:08 pm : link
Replace the loss of Nicks, Cruz, Smith, & Manningham.

Your basic premise..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 12:14 pm : link
is that if Reese had invested in LB's and OL we'd be better right now, and then added some happy horseshit about taking a "workmanlike approach" to filling the roster.

You've minimized the impact on injuries, not realizing that we've effectively lost 3 starting WR's, 2 starting DB's, a starting S, a Super Bowl starting TE, a future starter at RB, and an early round defensive player who never even got a chance to play. Where do you get the resources to replace them, while also dealing with an aging OL and the impact of ignoring LB's?

I'm not cherry picking - I'm addressing those points where you seem way off base, not to mention the fact that you are looking at things as if spending $200M is a negative when we have the money to spend and failing to realize that the loss of key players has a domino effect to other areas, because you don't just replace what you've lost, you also have to replace players that failed to pan out. Part of that fault lies with Reese, of course.

You asked about the WR's. Well, we spent a 1st on Nicks. a 2nd on Smith. a 1st on Beckham and a 2nd on Shepard in less than a decade's time. That's 4 top picks on one position. If that's cherry picking a point, I really don't know what to tell you.

Talk about sound bytes but use terms like a "workmanlike approach". OK.

Your take seems strange. You were supposedly a fan of Reese until 2013. But since that time, his drafts have gotten better and in 2016, he's tried his damnest to fix the issues. Seems like you should have been less of a fan before.
RE: To Bruce (Big Blue '56)...  
Big Blue '56 : 8/23/2016 12:22 pm : link
In comment 13082836 That’s Gold, Jerry said:
Quote:
no Pat wasn't suggesting Long at all except that he is the best alternative. The question obviously is, can he still play? Pat was just trying to show that there is not much out there, if anything at all. So we are kind of stuck with what we have.


Thanks
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 6-10, and 6-10  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 12:40 pm : link
In comment 13083000 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 13082960 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


BillT said:




In comment 13082797 BillT said:


So you're admitting you're ignorant of the extent of the Giants injuries over the last half dozen years? That's ok. No one though you had any real answers or had a reasonable position. [quote]

Agreed BillT I don't ever assume a statement to be unreasonable unless of course its an outright attack.

I was simply referring to the above statement.


Thought I already apologized for that. I was referring to a response from you on my 11:22 post.


You did and I thanked you, I was merely pointing to the idea of having a reasonable position.
RE: Your basic premise..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13083011 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is that if Reese had invested in LB's and OL we'd be better right now, and then added some happy horseshit about taking a "workmanlike approach" to filling the roster.

You've minimized the impact on injuries, not realizing that we've effectively lost 3 starting WR's, 2 starting DB's, a starting S, a Super Bowl starting TE, a future starter at RB, and an early round defensive player who never even got a chance to play. Where do you get the resources to replace them, while also dealing with an aging OL and the impact of ignoring LB's?

I'm not cherry picking - I'm addressing those points where you seem way off base, not to mention the fact that you are looking at things as if spending $200M is a negative when we have the money to spend and failing to realize that the loss of key players has a domino effect to other areas, because you don't just replace what you've lost, you also have to replace players that failed to pan out. Part of that fault lies with Reese, of course.

You asked about the WR's. Well, we spent a 1st on Nicks. a 2nd on Smith. a 1st on Beckham and a 2nd on Shepard in less than a decade's time. That's 4 top picks on one position. If that's cherry picking a point, I really don't know what to tell you.

Talk about sound bytes but use terms like a "workmanlike approach". OK.

Your take seems strange. You were supposedly a fan of Reese until 2013. But since that time, his drafts have gotten better and in 2016, he's tried his damnest to fix the issues. Seems like you should have been less of a fan before.


No, my basic premise goes to better drafting...and when I use the phrase "workmanlike approach" I'm talking about building a roster through acquiring pieces that fit, not headliners and the HIGH RISK gambles to call attention to himself (see a RB in the 1st round, and a WR in the 2nd whom he bragged had a 1st round grade).

You talk about those 4 top picks at one position (actually 5 with Randle in the 2nd)...you don't think that's over playing your hand a bit? Do you think there is any chance, they could have replaced those positions without using 5 total (1st & 2nd round) picks?

I was a fan because the Giants won 2 SB's and I was willing to be patient. I forgave him his big swings at the fences because I assumed he knew what he was doing with the mid to later round picks.

Obviously I was wrong, as was he...I love the idea of going out and getting players to WIN NOW. Especially having a QB like Eli in place for 4-5 more seasons. My issue with the $200M is that if the roster was not such a mess going in, that $200M would have made us a Powerhouse instead of a possible contender.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 1:01 pm : link
Quote:
I'm talking about building a roster through acquiring pieces that fit, not headliners and the HIGH RISK gambles to call attention to himself (see a RB in the 1st round, and a WR in the 2nd whom he bragged had a 1st round grade).


So these picks were made to call attention to himself? Jesus.

Was the Beckham pick an attention whoring pick, or are you just going to highlight one where the player suffered a career ending injury and another one that was mediocre?

Reese has spent a 1st rounder on a Guard and a Tackle which seems like a reasonable way to acquire pieces that fit. At least it nullifies the oft-used refrain by many that he serially ignores the OL.

I don't think there's much more debating here when you view the work of the GM as being for attention. If that isn't the height of stupidity, I don't know what is.

And yes - I'm going to cherry pick that statement because it highlights that I'm not dealing with a particularly bright poster.
The arguments being presented here are mental gymnastics  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/23/2016 1:05 pm : link
.
Well if Jennings could stay healthy as a bellcow back...  
Torrag : 8/23/2016 1:12 pm : link
...we could give him the rock. But he can't.

OL is a mess and it's not just Newhouse although he's the worst of it and where all the trouble starts.

This was always going to be a two year rebuild after 2015. We'd simply had too many draft misses and career derailing injuries to key players to address all the areas necessary to field a real title contender.

Enjoy this season for what it is. A transition year that may yield an early playoff exit. The fun really starts in 2017.

RE: LOL..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13083086 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


I'm talking about building a roster through acquiring pieces that fit, not headliners and the HIGH RISK gambles to call attention to himself (see a RB in the 1st round, and a WR in the 2nd whom he bragged had a 1st round grade).



So these picks were made to call attention to himself? Jesus.

Was the Beckham pick an attention whoring pick, or are you just going to highlight one where the player suffered a career ending injury and another one that was mediocre?

Reese has spent a 1st rounder on a Guard and a Tackle which seems like a reasonable way to acquire pieces that fit. At least it nullifies the oft-used refrain by many that he serially ignores the OL.

I don't think there's much more debating here when you view the work of the GM as being for attention. If that isn't the height of stupidity, I don't know what is.

And yes - I'm going to cherry pick that statement because it highlights that I'm not dealing with a particularly bright poster.


That's all you do is cherry pick Fat Man.

Why don't you try a civilized discussion and put a little work into accepting thoughts other than your own.

You can insult me all you like it won't stop me from voicing my opinion, and I won't stoop to trying to insult you as a way of backing away from your POV

We as fans make fun of the likes of Jerry Jones for making picks with his ego and thinking he's outsmarting other GM's...why is our GM immune from having an EGO? He won the SB in his 1st year at what 39 years old?

You don't think these guys can sometimes let their egos get the best of them. For crying out loud professional sports is all about EGO and there are countless stories of players, coaches and executives letting their "greatness" get the best of them.

Yes he's spent a 1st rounder on a G and a T after 5-6 years (after the Snee pick) of middling around in rounds 4-7 and coming up with crap. You think Mara may have had a little influence on those picks.

Newsflash Fat Man! Your boy Jerry is far from perfect. I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm saying he's done a bad job for several years and is being given a chance to make amends this year. I'm pretty sure Mara insinuated as much after TC fell on the sword.

Sue me for thinking a football team should be built at the LOS first, and up the middle second. Yes it's a passing league but the basic tenets of football will always remain the same. The team who blocks, tackles and protects the ball best wins the day.

Oh wait! Didn't our new Coach come up with something like that....Snee, LT and Duke...I think he calls it.
RE: LOL..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13083086 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


I'm talking about building a roster through acquiring pieces that fit, not headliners and the HIGH RISK gambles to call attention to himself (see a RB in the 1st round, and a WR in the 2nd whom he bragged had a 1st round grade).



So these picks were made to call attention to himself? Jesus.

Was the Beckham pick an attention whoring pick, or are you just going to highlight one where the player suffered a career ending injury and another one that was mediocre?

Reese has spent a 1st rounder on a Guard and a Tackle which seems like a reasonable way to acquire pieces that fit. At least it nullifies the oft-used refrain by many that he serially ignores the OL.

I don't think there's much more debating here when you view the work of the GM as being for attention. If that isn't the height of stupidity, I don't know what is.

And yes - I'm going to cherry pick that statement because it highlights that I'm not dealing with a particularly bright poster.


Here's a challenge: take on the points of fact in my post and ignore my conjecture on what he was thinking when he made his picks:

No, my basic premise goes to better drafting...and when I use the phrase "workmanlike approach" I'm talking about building a roster through acquiring pieces that fit, not headliners and the HIGH RISK gambles (see a RB in the 1st round, and a WR in the 2nd whom he bragged had a 1st round grade).

You talk about those 4 top picks at one position (actually 5 with Randle in the 2nd)...you don't think that's over playing your hand a bit? Do you think there is any chance, they could have replaced those positions without using 5 total (1st & 2nd round) picks?

I was a fan because the Giants won 2 SB's and I was willing to be patient. I forgave him his big swings at the fences because I assumed he knew what he was doing with the mid to later round picks.

Obviously I was wrong, as was he...I love the idea of going out and getting players to WIN NOW. Especially having a QB like Eli in place for 4-5 more seasons. My issue with the $200M is that if the roster was not such a mess going in, that $200M would have made us a Powerhouse instead of a possible contender.

Do you think you can do that without using your "go to" subterfuge move?
A couple of things on this thread  
chopperhatch : 8/23/2016 1:31 pm : link
- I have no problem with Williams getting another crack as a change of pace back. He does look quicker. However I would like to see Jennings utilized as he was at the end of last year. He is our most complete back. If he shoukd go down, I think it almost HAS to go to Perkins. He is the next most complete back and we drafted him as such. It should not be Williams unless he is borderline explosive as a runner. But the RB order should be Jennings > Perkins> Williams.

- I reiterate my thoughts I had shared here back in the offseason...Ereck Flowers is an ideal right tackle and project at LT. He has always looked less than nimble at LT. Maybe he can work on better feet at a less critical position at RT. Kick Pugh out to left tackle where he's played, play Hart at LG where he has apparently looked good. Richburg, Jerry, Flowers...the math is there and its definitely worth a shot. I think we would upgrade our line's athleticism.
RE: A couple of things on this thread  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13083123 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
- I have no problem with Williams getting another crack as a change of pace back. He does look quicker. However I would like to see Jennings utilized as he was at the end of last year. He is our most complete back. If he shoukd go down, I think it almost HAS to go to Perkins. He is the next most complete back and we drafted him as such. It should not be Williams unless he is borderline explosive as a runner. But the RB order should be Jennings > Perkins> Williams.

- I reiterate my thoughts I had shared here back in the offseason...Ereck Flowers is an ideal right tackle and project at LT. He has always looked less than nimble at LT. Maybe he can work on better feet at a less critical position at RT. Kick Pugh out to left tackle where he's played, play Hart at LG where he has apparently looked good. Richburg, Jerry, Flowers...the math is there and its definitely worth a shot. I think we would upgrade our line's athleticism.


Nice post. I especially like what you have to say about the OL. It's as plausible a solution as there is out there, given the assets available.

God help this offense if any of the OL starters get hurt!
andrew: A big reason why they needed to spend $200  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 1:35 pm : link
was due to injuries. In recent years, this team has lost:

#1 WR (Nicks)
#2 WR (Cruz)
#2 WR (Smith)
#1 DE (JPP)
#1 FS (Phillips)
RB (Wilson)
3rd rd SS who never played (Chad Jones)

I'm sure I forgetting a few....Don't you think losing the above would put any team in a hole?

"Better drafting" a simple answer that ignores the major cause of the talent issue.

In 2011 we had a top 5 WR duo. Both of those players are done (Nicks is, Cruz on the way)

RE: andrew: A big reason why they needed to spend $200  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13083132 drkenneth said:
Quote:
was due to injuries. In recent years, this team has lost:

#1 WR (Nicks)
#2 WR (Cruz)
#2 WR (Smith)
#1 DE (JPP)
#1 FS (Phillips)
RB (Wilson)
3rd rd SS who never played (Chad Jones)

I'm sure I forgetting a few....Don't you think losing the above would put any team in a hole?

"Better drafting" a simple answer that ignores the major cause of the talent issue.

In 2011 we had a top 5 WR duo. Both of those players are done (Nicks is, Cruz on the way)


As I said, I'm not discounting the injury factor but look at WHO was injured.
Three WR's a FS and a RB (Why did they need an RB in the 1st round?)

JPP was a freak accident, he's back on a 1 yr deal
Chad Jones was a car accident who never hit the field once (an incomplete is generous here)

The $200M was spent on a DT (in part because they let Linval Joseph walk), a DE, and what they believe to be a shutdown CB...oh and bringing JPP back on a 1 yr deal.

I understand your point, I just believe that pointing to that as the core reason for all of the roster problems is a bit short sighted.
RE: A couple of things on this thread  
Bill L : 8/23/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13083123 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
- I have no problem with Williams getting another crack as a change of pace back. He does look quicker. However I would like to see Jennings utilized as he was at the end of last year. He is our most complete back. If he shoukd go down, I think it almost HAS to go to Perkins. He is the next most complete back and we drafted him as such. It should not be Williams unless he is borderline explosive as a runner. But the RB order should be Jennings > Perkins> Williams.

- I reiterate my thoughts I had shared here back in the offseason...Ereck Flowers is an ideal right tackle and project at LT. He has always looked less than nimble at LT. Maybe he can work on better feet at a less critical position at RT. Kick Pugh out to left tackle where he's played, play Hart at LG where he has apparently looked good. Richburg, Jerry, Flowers...the math is there and its definitely worth a shot. I think we would upgrade our line's athleticism.
Just curious on your basis for putting Perkins ahead of any other back on the roster? He's not seen the field that much and IIRC has underperformed all of the other backs.
RE: RE: andrew: A big reason why they needed to spend $200  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13083148 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13083132 drkenneth said:


Quote:


was due to injuries. In recent years, this team has lost:

#1 WR (Nicks)
#2 WR (Cruz)
#2 WR (Smith)
#1 DE (JPP)
#1 FS (Phillips)
RB (Wilson)
3rd rd SS who never played (Chad Jones)

I'm sure I forgetting a few....Don't you think losing the above would put any team in a hole?

"Better drafting" a simple answer that ignores the major cause of the talent issue.

In 2011 we had a top 5 WR duo. Both of those players are done (Nicks is, Cruz on the way)




As I said, I'm not discounting the injury factor but look at WHO was injured.
Three WR's a FS and a RB (Why did they need an RB in the 1st round?)

JPP was a freak accident, he's back on a 1 yr deal
Chad Jones was a car accident who never hit the field once (an incomplete is generous here)

The $200M was spent on a DT (in part because they let Linval Joseph walk), a DE, and what they believe to be a shutdown CB...oh and bringing JPP back on a 1 yr deal.

I understand your point, I just believe that pointing to that as the core reason for all of the roster problems is a bit short sighted.


Did I say that this was the reason for "all the roster problems"?

Should have drafted Cordy Glenn over Wilson. No doubt.

Just saying it's a pretty big fucking problem when a Top 5 WR's career ends at 28. And a top FS.

Hard to "build that workman like team" when you constantly shoveling against the tide of career's ending prematurely.

RE: RE: RE: andrew: A big reason why they needed to spend $200  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 1:58 pm : link
In comment 13083179 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 13083148 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13083132 drkenneth said:


Quote:


was due to injuries. In recent years, this team has lost:

#1 WR (Nicks)
#2 WR (Cruz)
#2 WR (Smith)
#1 DE (JPP)
#1 FS (Phillips)
RB (Wilson)
3rd rd SS who never played (Chad Jones)

I'm sure I forgetting a few....Don't you think losing the above would put any team in a hole?

"Better drafting" a simple answer that ignores the major cause of the talent issue.

In 2011 we had a top 5 WR duo. Both of those players are done (Nicks is, Cruz on the way)




As I said, I'm not discounting the injury factor but look at WHO was injured.
Three WR's a FS and a RB (Why did they need an RB in the 1st round?)

JPP was a freak accident, he's back on a 1 yr deal
Chad Jones was a car accident who never hit the field once (an incomplete is generous here)

The $200M was spent on a DT (in part because they let Linval Joseph walk), a DE, and what they believe to be a shutdown CB...oh and bringing JPP back on a 1 yr deal.

I understand your point, I just believe that pointing to that as the core reason for all of the roster problems is a bit short sighted.



Did I say that this was the reason for "all the roster problems"?

Should have drafted Cordy Glenn over Wilson. No doubt.

Just saying it's a pretty big fucking problem when a Top 5 WR's career ends at 28. And a top FS.

Hard to "build that workman like team" when you constantly shoveling against the tide of career's ending prematurely.


You're right, you didn't say it was the reason for "all of the roster problems" my bad. But I'm not a mind reader, I was simply replying to what you said, and it's not like you offered any other reasoning.

I don't understand the vitriol in here...I am simply saying what a lot of educating Giants fans believe: Our GM should have done better.

In the end, that's ALL I'm saying.
Drafting better is too simple of an explanation on what could be done  
David in LA : 8/23/2016 2:00 pm : link
differently. I think it's very telling that McAdoo has expanded the size of his coaching staff, and has been very adamant about developing players. My observation is that our rash of injuries and lack of development coincided with the new CBA, telling me that our issues may very well be assigned to the coaching staff not adapting to the new rules, and a S&C program that was in need of serious overhaul.
I don't see any way to improve  
mrvax : 8/23/2016 2:02 pm : link
the Oline at this point in time. There are no solid, un-injury prone LTs out there. Claiming Flowers to RT forces the Giants to move Pugh to LT. Now your missing a left guard.
And a big learning curve for EF again.

Reese has to look at the cuts very carefully and maybe pick up 1-2 Oline guys as depth.

You can't fix a whole team in 1 off-season.


RE: Drafting better is too simple of an explanation on what could be done  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13083188 David in LA said:
Quote:
differently. I think it's very telling that McAdoo has expanded the size of his coaching staff, and has been very adamant about developing players. My observation is that our rash of injuries and lack of development coincided with the new CBA, telling me that our issues may very well be assigned to the coaching staff not adapting to the new rules, and a S&C program that was in need of serious overhaul.


A very good point, and I hope that it makes a big difference.

Drafting better certainly isn't the only reason. But excusing draft choices that didn't pan out or ignoring areas in the draft that needed to be shored up is certainly a PART of the reason.
RE: I don't see any way to improve  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13083189 mrvax said:
Quote:
the Oline at this point in time. There are no solid, un-injury prone LTs out there. Claiming Flowers to RT forces the Giants to move Pugh to LT. Now your missing a left guard.
And a big learning curve for EF again.

Reese has to look at the cuts very carefully and maybe pick up 1-2 Oline guys as depth.

You can't fix a whole team in 1 off-season.



You and I are saying the same thing...great point!
RE: RE: Drafting better is too simple of an explanation on what could be done  
David in LA : 8/23/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13083191 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13083188 David in LA said:


Quote:


differently. I think it's very telling that McAdoo has expanded the size of his coaching staff, and has been very adamant about developing players. My observation is that our rash of injuries and lack of development coincided with the new CBA, telling me that our issues may very well be assigned to the coaching staff not adapting to the new rules, and a S&C program that was in need of serious overhaul.



A very good point, and I hope that it makes a big difference.

Drafting better certainly isn't the only reason. But excusing draft choices that didn't pan out or ignoring areas in the draft that needed to be shored up is certainly a PART of the reason.


It's never one thing that's the reason, our problems are a culmination of a variety of issues. The plus is that the draft seems to have actually improved in recent years. Reese is next up to face the heat, but IMO we kept the right guy. Coughlin was a great coach, but I think the past two years it was clear he wasn't at his very best anymore. If we're losing talent to injuries during supervised weight room sessions, that falls on the S&C guy, and ultimately that's Coughlin's responsibility since Palmieri was his guy. Had Coughlin had not stayed so loyal, we don't lose Beatty to a torn pec, and we might actually have made the playoffs last year, and TC still has a job.
RE: RE: RE: Drafting better is too simple of an explanation on what could be done  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13083204 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13083191 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13083188 David in LA said:


Quote:


differently. I think it's very telling that McAdoo has expanded the size of his coaching staff, and has been very adamant about developing players. My observation is that our rash of injuries and lack of development coincided with the new CBA, telling me that our issues may very well be assigned to the coaching staff not adapting to the new rules, and a S&C program that was in need of serious overhaul.



A very good point, and I hope that it makes a big difference.

Drafting better certainly isn't the only reason. But excusing draft choices that didn't pan out or ignoring areas in the draft that needed to be shored up is certainly a PART of the reason.



It's never one thing that's the reason, our problems are a culmination of a variety of issues. The plus is that the draft seems to have actually improved in recent years. Reese is next up to face the heat, but IMO we kept the right guy. Coughlin was a great coach, but I think the past two years it was clear he wasn't at his very best anymore. If we're losing talent to injuries during supervised weight room sessions, that falls on the S&C guy, and ultimately that's Coughlin's responsibility since Palmieri was his guy. Had Coughlin had not stayed so loyal, we don't lose Beatty to a torn pec, and we might actually have made the playoffs last year, and TC still has a job.


I can't argue that though it is a bit of conjecture. I will say that Reese seems to have improved on some of these choices but only time will tell if they pay out over the long haul.
RE: RE: I don't see any way to improve  
mrvax : 8/23/2016 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13083195 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:

You and I are saying the same thing...great point!


As far as Flowers to RT goes: the reason it seems to make sense to people is b/c he's HUGE and can run block well. Classic football. But we have a passing league now and your right tackle needs to protect the QB just as much as the LT does. And now you need a good left tackle. They don't grow on trees or come with a reasonable price tag.

Leave Flowers at LT unless he's really bad at it. Concentrate on getting a better RT when one becomes available.
I'm lmao  
micky : 8/23/2016 2:25 pm : link
I'm envisioning, if it were possible, when the Giants OL linesup for first snap at Dallas, BBI will go onto the field and physically push Flowers to RT. Such a hard up for it..lol
Andrew, is it also not conjecture to say most of this falls on Reese  
David in LA : 8/23/2016 2:33 pm : link
when the only person that sees how these personnel decisions get made in a vacuum is Mara?
RE: RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
Sonic Youth : 8/23/2016 2:50 pm : link
In comment 13082579 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.



I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!

It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.

Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.
What a joke. You want to fire Reese? How about we see how these offseason acuiqisitions play first? Terrible post IMO, sorry
RE: RE: RE: The Giants brought Long in for two visits in 2015.  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13083236 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
In comment 13082579 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13082563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


They declined to make him an offer and he eventually signed with Atlanta...for whom he played a grand total of ten snaps. No surprise he wasn't re-signed.

This year, all we've heard from the Long camp is that he's finally fully healthy, he has no pain in his knees, etc., yet he remains unsigned, even by a Ravens team that let Eugene Monroe walk, and saw their 1st Round draft choice, OT Ronnie Stanley, suffer one of those "soft tissue," "lower leg" injuries in the spring. No injury waiver, no contract. Have a nice day.

I have no issue with Kirwan, but I think he's off the mark here. As much as I'd like the Giants to upgrade their O-Line, I don't think bringing in an oft-injured veteran with a large red flag flying over his head is the way to do it.



I agree with this....I'm not in love with the idea of Long by any means...but to think that Reese let several qualified LT's walk away from the negotiating table because he wasn't budging on Flowers as the next Orlando Pace is a HUGE joke!

It' a perfect example of why this team needed to dole out $200M to bail him out of several miserable drafts.

Reese is out of his depth as a GM, he was a great talent evaluator when the final call in terms of putting the pieces of the roster together belonged to someone else. It's passed time to pull RIP on this guy.

What a joke. You want to fire Reese? How about we see how these offseason acuiqisitions play first? Terrible post IMO, sorry


Great insight! Very well constructed thought. Do you have anything other than criticism to contribute?

FOH
Sonic..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 3:57 pm : link
don't bother.

He's on record saying that Reese makes picks to draw attention to himself and then says the argument finding that line of thinking moronic holds no merit.

Basically, he's saying the GM is incompetent and an attention whore and wants to have a reasonable discussion, even if that point is very unreasonable. And since Wilson was a pick at a position we didn't have an immediate need in, it was a bad one. Interesting seeing that RB hasn't exactly been a strength lately.
RE: they key point  
EricJ : 8/23/2016 5:06 pm : link
In comment 13082487 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is that its not just the Giants. It doesn't excuse anything of course, but I think it escapes many Giants fans.


Who gives a shit what problems the other teams have. We want the Giants to win a championship. We don' want to be like the other teams. Fuck making the playoffs. Is that the goal around here? Mediocrity? We are not winning a championship unless we figure out how to make run the ball effectively.

The good news is that I am confident we will be able to stop the run on defense. One step in the right direction.
RE: Sonic..  
andrew_nyg : 8/23/2016 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13083284 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
don't bother.

He's on record saying that Reese makes picks to draw attention to himself and then says the argument finding that line of thinking moronic holds no merit.

Basically, he's saying the GM is incompetent and an attention whore and wants to have a reasonable discussion, even if that point is very unreasonable. And since Wilson was a pick at a position we didn't have an immediate need in, it was a bad one. Interesting seeing that RB hasn't exactly been a strength lately.


Yeah talk to someone else Fat Man because subterfuge is your only "go to" when staying on point causes you to lose an argument.

You can't go point by point because your entire approach is to insult and ridicule instead of to engage in a healthy difference of opinion.

Good luck in 7th grade this year, son.
RE: RE: A couple of things on this thread  
ColHowPepper : 8/23/2016 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13083165 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13083123 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
- I have no problem with Williams getting another crack as a change of pace back. He does look quicker. However I would like to see Jennings utilized as he was at the end of last year. He is our most complete back. If he shoukd go down, I think it almost HAS to go to Perkins. He is the next most complete back and we drafted him as such. It should not be Williams unless he is borderline explosive as a runner. But the RB order should be Jennings > Perkins> Williams.////
[Bill L] Just curious on your basis for putting Perkins ahead of any other back on the roster? He's not seen the field that much and IIRC has underperformed all of the other backs.

This. I realize that this is not the gravamen of the thread, but it is part of the OP. How is it that smart, informed posters, and chopperhatch is certainly an exemplar, fall prey to the draft hype, the newer the better, the glittery, until they actually try to run behind the Giants' OL. PP has hardly looked like Jerry's latest gem: it's only Exh. 2, he along with all the other RBs is struggling to survive, let alone thrive--and actually AW has been the most productive, save and except for Rainey's ~67 yard romp--he missed a blitz pickup and incurred a penalty.
McAdoo singled him out for a rough outing. Yet he's still the best thing going if and when Jennings goes down because he's not a proven failure in the regular season. There's no rationality here. I hope Paul Perkins turns out to be a fantastic pick, but to say in the circumstances of just having witnessed the Bills' fiasco, "...I think it almost HAS to go to Perkins. He is the next most complete back and we drafted him as such," just makes no sense.
No offense, Andrew, but anyone who says this:  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 7:31 pm : link
Quote:
His draft picks from 2008 through 2012 (especially in the early rounds) were of the "Let me outsmart all of the other GM's in the league" variety instead of just modestly building a roster focusing on the first and second line of defense and the offensive line...


Sounds pretty dense to me.

Picking last in every round in 2008, Reese drafted three eventual starters in KP, TT, and Jon Goff, plus a good, complimentary WR in Manningham. It's unfortunate that all were lost to career ending injuries early on, but you can't blame that on Reese.

In 2009, picking late in every round, Reese drafted Hakeem Nicks and Will Beatty, a #1 WR and a starting LT. Perhaps that draft in its entirety wasn't great, but in this case quality trumped quantity.

In 2010, Reese tapped JPP - a C+ in your mind, but a legit candidate for DPOY in 2011 - and Linval Joseph, both of whom were big parts of a Super Bowl-winning defense. We'll never know how good Chad Jones could have been, but no one was criticizing the pick at the time.

2011 was not a good draft, although Prince Amukamara was a decent player when he was healthy, and Jacquian Williams made a few big plays in big spots.

2012 was probably Reese's low point as far as drafts go. It's too bad that we only got 21 games out of David Wison, though. We'll never know what he might have become if he'd stayed healthy.

So, yeah, he had a couple of bad drafts. Show me a GM who hasn't. His good drafts helped us win our second Super Bowl championship in four years, as did his free agent acquisitions of guys like Rolle, Canty, Boothe, and Boley, to name four.

This characterization, though: "Let me outsmart all of the other GM's in the league" is way overdone on BBI in my opinion. Sure, you can say that about a guy like Adrien Robinson, Marvin Austin, or James Brewer, but you can't say it about a guy like Brandon Mosley, who never panned out, but was a solid pick in the mid-rounds.

Regardless, it seems to me that Reese has learned from some of his mid-to-late round mistakes, and has moved on from them. I plan on doing the same.
Yeah, right..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/23/2016 7:45 pm : link
Quote:
Yeah talk to someone else Fat Man because subterfuge is your only "go to" when staying on point causes you to lose an argument.

You can't go point by point because your entire approach is to insult and ridicule instead of to engage in a healthy difference of opinion.

Good luck in 7th grade this year, son.


You expect to engage in a healthy difference of opinion when you say the GM makes picks to draw attention to himself? For some reason, you think your stance on reese has merit and people need to refute you point by point.

I've already gave a counterpoint that resources had to be used to replace the almost dozen starters or future starters to injury.

I've already gave the counterpoint that a roster is invaribly going to have weak spots either through intention or by necessity to fill other holes.

And I've ACCENTED those arguments by pointing out how incredibly ignorant it is to say the GM is making picks for flash and for ego. Yet, you keep repeating this as if it is true without a single shred of evidence. He picked Wilson in the first and Randle in the 2nd and you use those as examples of him being arrogant and seeking attention.

Do you expect anything but a "Holy shit" in response? Don't overestimate your points here - they aren't as good as you seem to think.
Klaatu/Fatman on fire!  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 7:57 pm : link
Well done. Agree 100%.

Great points Fat Man  
andrew_nyg : 8/24/2016 8:39 am : link
and when we waste ANOTHER year of Eli's career I'm sure you'll keep defending your Hero Jerry Reese.

My point about his ego is conjecture nothing more, I never represented it as fact...its MY OPINION.

I believe that he was a young, very talented executive capable of being great, who got caught up in his own press clippings. I don't see where that's such a stretch.

Because he's GM of our favorite team that makes him GOD?

The guy's made mistakes, and its hurt this teams chances to get another ring. Let's hope he's learned his lesson.
If you took away..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/24/2016 8:42 am : link
from any of my comments that I think Jerry Reese is my hero, then it really makes your posts about cherry-picking arguments look absolutely moronic.

I guess if I don't think that Reese makes picks to outsmart everyone and stroke his massive ego that I'm a fanboy??

Strange, strange method of argumentation.
RE: Great points Fat Man  
UConn4523 : 8/24/2016 8:45 am : link
In comment 13083898 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
and when we waste ANOTHER year of Eli's career I'm sure you'll keep defending your Hero Jerry Reese.

My point about his ego is conjecture nothing more, I never represented it as fact...its MY OPINION.

I believe that he was a young, very talented executive capable of being great, who got caught up in his own press clippings. I don't see where that's such a stretch.

Because he's GM of our favorite team that makes him GOD?

The guy's made mistakes, and its hurt this teams chances to get another ring. Let's hope he's learned his lesson.


The wasted year comment is one of the more tiresome on this board. I posted earlier in the thread that you need to look around the league. Here's my original post below, are all these teams wasting prime years of their QB's or is it just really fucking hard to put together a SB caliber team even with a franchise QB?

"Pats have had problems, Packers have stunk probably longer than we have on the O-Line, Falcons and Saints have been poor. San Diego and Indianapolis have been dreadful.

What's funny is each of these teams has a bonafide franchise QB so the "wasted Eli" years is such a stretch."
RE: RE: Great points Fat Man  
andrew_nyg : 8/24/2016 2:16 pm : link
In comment 13083906 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 13083898 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and when we waste ANOTHER year of Eli's career I'm sure you'll keep defending your Hero Jerry Reese.

My point about his ego is conjecture nothing more, I never represented it as fact...its MY OPINION.

I believe that he was a young, very talented executive capable of being great, who got caught up in his own press clippings. I don't see where that's such a stretch.

Because he's GM of our favorite team that makes him GOD?

The guy's made mistakes, and its hurt this teams chances to get another ring. Let's hope he's learned his lesson.



The wasted year comment is one of the more tiresome on this board. I posted earlier in the thread that you need to look around the league. Here's my original post below, are all these teams wasting prime years of their QB's or is it just really fucking hard to put together a SB caliber team even with a franchise QB?

"Pats have had problems, Packers have stunk probably longer than we have on the O-Line, Falcons and Saints have been poor. San Diego and Indianapolis have been dreadful.

What's funny is each of these teams has a bonafide franchise QB so the "wasted Eli" years is such a stretch."


You're right it is hard, and there are other teams who have franchise QB's that have had trouble going back. But how many of those GM's have been sub .500 every year outside of their SB years?

If we were consistently at or around 9-7, 10-6 and either nearly missing the playoffs or getting eliminated, that would be easier to digest.

But at or below .500 every year outside of the SB years for his entire tenure and he's above criticism due to injuries, coaches and any other issue you want to point to...sorry but that's just being a Reese apologist.

I have admitted the guy is a very good talent evaluator, which is what makes him all the more frustrating to me. I'm not calling him a bum...I'm simply saying he could've done a better job.

Why is that such a flawed argument to some of you?
I honestly felt like it was the coaching that wasted Eli's prime years  
David in LA : 8/24/2016 2:29 pm : link
he posted some erratic numbers under a high risk/high reward offense. Imagine running the McAdoo offense with Nicks, Cruz, and MM still close to their peaks?
RE: RE: RE: Great points Fat Man  
Victor in CT : 8/24/2016 2:30 pm : link
In comment 13084595 andrew_nyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13083906 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 13083898 andrew_nyg said:


Quote:


and when we waste ANOTHER year of Eli's career I'm sure you'll keep defending your Hero Jerry Reese.

My point about his ego is conjecture nothing more, I never represented it as fact...its MY OPINION.

I believe that he was a young, very talented executive capable of being great, who got caught up in his own press clippings. I don't see where that's such a stretch.

Because he's GM of our favorite team that makes him GOD?

The guy's made mistakes, and its hurt this teams chances to get another ring. Let's hope he's learned his lesson.



The wasted year comment is one of the more tiresome on this board. I posted earlier in the thread that you need to look around the league. Here's my original post below, are all these teams wasting prime years of their QB's or is it just really fucking hard to put together a SB caliber team even with a franchise QB?

"Pats have had problems, Packers have stunk probably longer than we have on the O-Line, Falcons and Saints have been poor. San Diego and Indianapolis have been dreadful.

What's funny is each of these teams has a bonafide franchise QB so the "wasted Eli" years is such a stretch."



You're right it is hard, and there are other teams who have franchise QB's that have had trouble going back. But how many of those GM's have been sub .500 every year outside of their SB years?

If we were consistently at or around 9-7, 10-6 and either nearly missing the playoffs or getting eliminated, that would be easier to digest.

But at or below .500 every year outside of the SB years for his entire tenure and he's above criticism due to injuries, coaches and any other issue you want to point to...sorry but that's just being a Reese apologist.

I have admitted the guy is a very good talent evaluator, which is what makes him all the more frustrating to me. I'm not calling him a bum...I'm simply saying he could've done a better job.

Why is that such a flawed argument to some of you?


Really? Like 2007 10-6 SB Champion, 2008 12-4, 2009 8-8, 2010 10-6, 2011 9-7 SB Champion, 2012 9-7. That's 6 straight 8-8 or better seasons. Add in 2005 11-5 NFC East Champs, 2006 8-8 Wild Card and that's 8 straight that Reese was a part of.I can't believe I'm being put in the position of defending Reese. The abject stupidity here has turned the world upside down.

Reese absolutely deserves criticism for 3 1/2 losing seasons in a row and poor drafting for 5 years. To me, the big mistake was in thinking that they could patch together an aging, broken down roster with Band Aids to make a run at SB48 at Met Life. That set them back a year in their rebuilding and made the process more difficult.
Umm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/24/2016 2:31 pm : link
Quote:
Why is that such a flawed argument to some of you?


Could it be because tit is untrue?

Do you really have to be corrected here?
Quote:
But at or below .500 every year outside of the SB years for his entire tenure and he's above criticism due to injuries, coaches and any other issue you want to point to...sorry but that's just being a Reese apologist.


2012 - 9-7
2010 - 10-6
2008 - 12-4

That's three strikes - YER OUT!!!
And fans overlook  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/24/2016 2:36 pm : link
the difference last year between 6-10 and 9-7 is 3 plays.
Reese never had a losing season...  
Klaatu : 8/24/2016 2:36 pm : link
Until the injuries began to pile up, beginning in 2013. From 2007 to 2012 the Giants were 58-38, with a couple of division championships and a couple of Super Bowl championships along the way. Also, a couple of bad drafts and a few questionable free agent signings, but on balance, a pretty good record.
RE: And fans overlook  
drkenneth : 8/24/2016 2:45 pm : link
In comment 13084645 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
the difference last year between 6-10 and 9-7 is 3 plays.


Yup. The NFL consists of a few really good teams, a few really bad teams.

Everyone else is in the 6-10 win bucket.
RE: And fans overlook  
David in LA : 8/24/2016 2:47 pm : link
In comment 13084645 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
the difference last year between 6-10 and 9-7 is 3 plays.


In the NFL, games are lost, not won.
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