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The Giants don't need a LT...

Dan in the Springs : 8/23/2016 9:27 am
If Flowers struggles too much at LT he can be moved to RT and Pugh will be the new LT. It's not like any currently available LT are any better than Pugh at the position.
But then they'll need  
Big Blue '56 : 8/23/2016 9:29 am : link
an OLG...😎
Yes, if they can find a talented guard...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/23/2016 9:31 am : link
They should definitely pick one up.
Pugh was barely getting by at RT  
Bill in UT : 8/23/2016 9:39 am : link
When did he become a good LT? I must have missed that season.
Why do you think Pugh  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 9:40 am : link
was moved off RT?

To clear a spot for Newhouse?

And you want him to be your LT?
they could use LT. 56 would still be their best OLB  
Victor in CT : 8/23/2016 9:40 am : link
Pugh ain't a tackle from what I can see
RE: Pugh was barely getting by at RT  
Johnny5 : 8/23/2016 9:45 am : link
In comment 13082632 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
When did he become a good LT? I must have missed that season.

He actually was pretty good there when Flowers got hurt last year, and he was LT for Syracuse. My opinion I wouldn't say he was barely getting by at RT either. They like him better at guard, but that speaks more to his versatility than to the fact that the staff didn't like him at RT.
bb56  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 9:48 am : link
Which is why I was pushing the supposed very quality guards free agents back in the Spring. But, as usual, bloviating internet experts shout all down, protecting the view of Flowers pick value at that time, or the often repeated "he is not moving spots"
RE: RE: Pugh was barely getting by at RT  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 9:50 am : link
In comment 13082647 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082632 Bill in UT said:


Quote:


When did he become a good LT? I must have missed that season.


He actually was pretty good there when Flowers got hurt last year, and he was LT for Syracuse. My opinion I wouldn't say he was barely getting by at RT either. They like him better at guard, but that speaks more to his versatility than to the fact that the staff didn't like him at RT.


Maybe it's a function of the line being as strong as its weakest link or the sum of it's parts being better than the individuals, but Pugh was fine at RT with Snee at RG. But he struggled significantly with John Jerry at RG.

He was moved off RT because Flowers was supposed to be the RT, but he (Pugh) was not playing well.

in addition  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 9:52 am : link
The skill sets are positionally different, but not always in a hierarchical way. In other words, some players make better left tackles than they do right tackles or guards. See deihl,David.
Pugh played well at LT last year  
robbieballs2003 : 8/23/2016 9:53 am : link
I think he was moved to LG because in our offense it is much more important to not get push up the middle so Eli can get the ball out on those 3 step drops or step us quickly when in the shotgun. You can always help out an OT if need be. It is much harder to help out an interior lineman.
that view of skill sets heirarchy  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 9:57 am : link
Is probably a major culprit in weak tactical, developmental, draft etc thinking on line play on O.
RE: Pugh played well at LT last year  
Big Blue '56 : 8/23/2016 10:01 am : link
In comment 13082676 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
I think he was moved to LG because in our offense it is much more important to not get push up the middle so Eli can get the ball out on those 3 step drops or step us quickly when in the shotgun. You can always help out an OT if need be. It is much harder to help out an interior lineman.


robbie on target, imo
and whereas pugh is a good player  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 10:05 am : link
He is not the road grader by any means. There were (two?) very good free agent guards in spring for exactly this reason, but no...you guys know better.
Pugh played well for a rookie at RT  
Bill in UT : 8/23/2016 10:08 am : link
His second year, hampered by injuries?, he was awful. When he got healthy, he became a LG. None of us were privy to the thought process of the the Giants' coaches, but one would have to think that they thought he had more potential as a guard than a tackle. As far as being put there to protect Eli, the Giants' certainly hoped that would be the case, but in no way was that a sure thing with him being new to the position, certainly at the pro level.
RE: RE: Pugh played well at LT last year  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 10:09 am : link
In comment 13082688 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13082676 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


I think he was moved to LG because in our offense it is much more important to not get push up the middle so Eli can get the ball out on those 3 step drops or step us quickly when in the shotgun. You can always help out an OT if need be. It is much harder to help out an interior lineman.



robbie on target, imo


Maybe on some of it, but Pugh was moved to guard not for power reasons, he was moved effectively when Flowers was picked. Most had Flowers penciled in at RT with Beatty at LT and it wasn't even definite Pugh could play guard since he never had.

Pugh was struggling at RT when John Jerry was the guard.

If Pugh had not struggled at RT, I think he would have moved back there after Beatty was injured in OTA's.
RE: and whereas pugh is a good player  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 10:09 am : link
In comment 13082705 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
He is not the road grader by any means. There were (two?) very good free agent guards in spring for exactly this reason, but no...you guys know better.


Maybe the Giants know better, when they're not caught up in the hierarchical 'n shit.
that would have been the consensus  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 10:10 am : link
About deihl before we won a superbowl with him at left tackle
its the typical theme of  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 10:13 am : link
Self appointed experts trying to talk their way around the facts on game day.
Pugh at LG.  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 10:14 am : link
The move was announced well before the 2015 draft. And as for the proverbial "road grader," you don't need one at LG. What you need is an excellent technician. See Marshall Yanda, for example.
RE: RE: RE: Pugh played well at LT last year  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/23/2016 10:18 am : link
In comment 13082717 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Most had Flowers penciled in at RT with Beatty at LT and it wasn't even definite Pugh could play guard since he never had.

Pugh was struggling at RT when John Jerry was the guard.

If Pugh had not struggled at RT, I think he would have moved back there after Beatty was injured in OTA's.


I agree that while Beatty was in the Picture he was penciled in at LT and Flowers at RT -- but it was always maintained by the Giants that Flowers would become the LT. Beatty's injury just accelerated the time table

Pugh did struggle at RT in his second year - and he's not an ideal LT - but he was always viewed by the Giants as a Lineman who could play multiple positions
RE: Pugh at LG.  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 10:19 am : link
In comment 13082728 Klaatu said:
Quote:
The move was announced well before the 2015 draft. And as for the proverbial "road grader," you don't need one at LG. What you need is an excellent technician. See Marshall Yanda, for example.


I'm not doubting you, but can you show me a link before the draft that indicates Pugh is moving to guard?

The only thing I read from Reese was "it depends on how free agency and the draft shake out" and the comments were about
Quote:
....If we can get a big dynamic right tackle via free agency or the draft, Pugh is a guy that fortunately can move in to guard...


doesn't exactly sound to me like they are moving Marshall Yanda. Sounds like they're looking to upgrade RT.
Unlikely  
JonC : 8/23/2016 10:21 am : link
Fans tend to overrate Pugh as a tackle, and underrate the importance of continuity.
pjcas18  
Klaatu : 8/23/2016 10:33 am : link
We were discussing it here as early as January 2015.

It's true, Reese & Co. never came out and said definitively that Pugh was moving to LG, but as Sy noted in his OP, "It really seemed like they were implying a move to guard was very possible, maybe even likely." And as it turned out, that's what happened.
RE: pjcas18  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 10:37 am : link
In comment 13082767 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We were discussing it here as early as January 2015.

It's true, Reese & Co. never came out and said definitively that Pugh was moving to LG, but as Sy noted in his OP, "It really seemed like they were implying a move to guard was very possible, maybe even likely." And as it turned out, that's what happened.


But my point was it wasn't because they felt like Pugh would make a great guard (and I think he's been good there), I think it was because they wanted to upgrade RT.

when they drafted Pugh they weren't thinking guard, they were thinking tackle.

the point you made that I liked is Pugh's versatility and that was mentioned from day 1, so while I think the Giants knew based on measurables and athleticism he could be a guard it was not the intent.
I don't think that will be the plan this year.....  
Simms11 : 8/23/2016 10:41 am : link
I think Flowers is the guy this year and if he falters again this year, I'm sure they'll consider a position change then for him. Pugh is versatile, but it appears that his best position is at LG and I think the Giants like the stability and continuity there with him. Pugh can play LT, but I think the Giants would consider going all out to find one, if they felt Flowers wasn't the guy for the position.
LT is Pugh's natural position.  
section125 : 8/23/2016 10:41 am : link
He's a bit undersized for RT. But face it, he's probably a better RT than what is there right now.

I think he'd be better now than Flowers, but if Flowers is the LT going forward, better he play there with Pugh on his inside.

RT is the problem.
which is solved by flowers  
idiotsavant : 8/23/2016 10:53 am : link
At rt. With Pugh at his natural position Lt and those two free agent guards I suggested we sign in spring. But ok,not signed.
I like the idea  
LeonofKiev : 8/23/2016 11:11 am : link
of having Pugh at LT.
How is that reshuffle going to impact the run blocking?
At that point the Guard position would be a total mystery.
Dan in the Springs...  
M.S. : 8/23/2016 11:13 am : link

...sorry, but I disagree.

I don't know what Pugh's natural position really is???

But no one would say he has ever excelled at any one of them for a full season.

The thought of him at Left Tackle for a full season doesn't sound right. And for Eli, it won't FEEL right.
Doesn't matter how you slice it  
Reb8thVA : 8/23/2016 11:24 am : link
They are short at least one capable body. I will leave it up to the coaching staff to determine who fits best where.
Is there really that much difference these days between  
SwirlingEddie : 8/23/2016 11:26 am : link
left and right tackles? Defenses move their pass rushers all across the line, TEs (when utilized) more often then not are split out or in the backfield, and blitzes can come from anywhere.

Is there still a meaningful difference between the two positions?
RE: Doesn't matter how you slice it  
LeonofKiev : 8/23/2016 11:27 am : link
In comment 13082888 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
They are short at least one capable body. I will leave it up to the coaching staff to determine who fits best where.



2 capable bodies! Jerry is not an ideal starter by any means.
How many games did Pugh play LT last year?  
Doomster : 8/23/2016 11:53 am : link
One?

Pugh's value is that he can play multiple positions.....kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none....

Doomster  
JerseyCityJoe : 8/23/2016 12:17 pm : link
Has that right IMO.
RE: RE: Doesn't matter how you slice it  
Reb8thVA : 8/23/2016 12:19 pm : link
In comment 13082894 LeonofKiev said:
Quote:
In comment 13082888 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


They are short at least one capable body. I will leave it up to the coaching staff to determine who fits best where.




2 capable bodies! Jerry is not an ideal starter by any means.


That is why I said at least.
RE: How many games did Pugh play LT last year?  
section125 : 8/23/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13082969 Doomster said:
Quote:
One?

Pugh's value is that he can play multiple positions.....kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none....


Usual misplaced negativity.
my recollection is that Pugh  
fkap : 8/23/2016 12:40 pm : link
was drafted to be a right tackle.
Flowers was drafted to be a left tackle.
Pugh was moved after two seasons.

both may end up as serviceable at some position, but it doesn't appear the Giants have much of a value, or eye, for talent on OL. Gotta give the new OL coach, Solari, and McAdoo time, but Flaherty/Reese/Coughlin didn't have much aptitude for OL talent. they seemed to go with 'meh is good enough'

Pugh is going to be a re-sign because if we don't we have to start all over again. not a must re-sign.
continuity is very important  
fkap : 8/23/2016 12:45 pm : link
that's why many people didn't panic when we didn't reach for OL help.

instead of shaking up the line once again, live with what you have, with the idea that when they get used to playing next to each other, the whole gets better. We have yet to see if this will pay dividends, but there really didn't seem to be much to choose from this past offseason.
Maybe we can trade for Tunsil  
grizz299 : 8/23/2016 12:45 pm : link
Put Flowers at ORT and be set for the next decade.

Williams in 2015
Tunsil in 2016.

The two best players in the draft and no one reacts as they fell.
They should make that switch now  
jeff57 : 8/23/2016 12:46 pm : link
.
RE: Maybe we can trade for Tunsil  
Victor in CT : 8/23/2016 1:07 pm : link
In comment 13083065 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Put Flowers at ORT and be set for the next decade.

Williams in 2015
Tunsil in 2016.

The two best players in the draft and no one reacts as they fell.


You mean Tunsil who was already moved to Guard and is 3rd string? Great idea.
RE: RE: Maybe we can trade for Tunsil  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13083093 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13083065 grizz299 said:


Quote:


Put Flowers at ORT and be set for the next decade.

Williams in 2015
Tunsil in 2016.

The two best players in the draft and no one reacts as they fell.



You mean Tunsil who was already moved to Guard and is 3rd string? Great idea.


The Dolphins have two tackles in high $$ free agent Brandon Albert, and 1st round pick Ja'Waun James. the plan was always to play Tunsil at guard in 2016 from the day they drafted him, which takes some learning.

He's practically a lock to start at guard if not week 1, very shortly thereafter. and he's 2nd on the depth chart now.
So on draft  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 1:47 pm : link
day those who were crying for not taking Tunsil for LT now suddenly think he's an all pro GUARD and he should be on this team? Christ.
RE: Maybe we can trade for Tunsil  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13083065 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Put Flowers at ORT and be set for the next decade.

Williams in 2015
Tunsil in 2016.

The two best players in the draft and no one reacts as they fell.


Why stop there?

Trade for Anthony Davis (RT)
Trade for Tunsil (LT)
Move Flowers to RG

Super awesome OL!!!
RE: So on draft  
Victor in CT : 8/23/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 13083160 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
day those who were crying for not taking Tunsil for LT now suddenly think he's an all pro GUARD and he should be on this team? Christ.


glad you said it. Jeez
Pugh  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 1:51 pm : link
was never stuck at a position when he got taken by the Giants and the brass has never said he's the right tackle for the future or the left tackle. One of the main reasons we took him was for his versatility/ability to play basically anywhere on the line except center. It just so happens that his highest upside is at LG.

Flowers was taken to be the LT. He's going to stay there until he proves he can't cut it there.
RE: So on draft  
pjcas18 : 8/23/2016 1:51 pm : link
In comment 13083160 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
day those who were crying for not taking Tunsil for LT now suddenly think he's an all pro GUARD and he should be on this team? Christ.


Not sure who that was directed at, I wasn't suggesting that. I was only correcting Victor in CT.

I didn't read the whole thread in detail to see who you were referring to, if not me, sorry for the noise.
RE: RE: So on draft  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13083171 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13083160 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


day those who were crying for not taking Tunsil for LT now suddenly think he's an all pro GUARD and he should be on this team? Christ.



Not sure who that was directed at, I wasn't suggesting that. I was only correcting Victor in CT.

I didn't read the whole thread in detail to see who you were referring to, if not me, sorry for the noise.

It was more of a generic statement. Plenty of BBIers thought we passed on the "best LT prospect in a decade" - and not surprisingly, now, that Reese was proven to be smart for not taking him, those same BBIers are saying to themselves "Tunsil will be an all pro guard - we should have taken him!"

Point being: those who just continue to change the argument over time aren't really looking at the big picture.
Pugh was not an awful RT, he was actually pretty good  
David in LA : 8/23/2016 2:04 pm : link
his skillset just translates much better inside, it doesn't mean he's terrible outside.
Pugh was our best OL his rookie year.  
drkenneth : 8/23/2016 2:07 pm : link
He was hurt his 2nd.

RE: Pugh was our best OL his rookie year.  
ryanmkeane : 8/23/2016 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13083201 drkenneth said:
Quote:
He was hurt his 2nd.

Agreed. Was very good last season and looks to be improving. He's been a good pick for us.
Flowers could be worse on the right side than he is on the left  
Milton : 8/23/2016 2:48 pm : link
I'm not an expert on OL, but isn't the footwork different and perhaps hand placement as well? If he is slow to get through the learning curve as a left tackle, what makes you think that starting from scratch at right tackle is the answer? Especially when they're already more than half way through the preseason. As far as 2016 is concerned, I think Flowers will be benched before he is moved to a new position. Maybe 2017 they can consider a position change if he flops, but this year is already set in stone. Just my uninformed opinion/hunch, I'm no expert.
I think a lot of people forget...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/23/2016 8:34 pm : link
how good Diehl ended up being at LT. Nobody thought he was "blue goose" good, and I remember people on this board saying we couldn't win a SB with him at LT. But people praise the 2008 line forever today.

I'm not suggesting that Pugh should be moved today. I'm saying that if Flowers turns out not to be able to get it done we have a guy who was drafted high after being evaluated at LT. We were told by the Giants that he would be a good LT. In his limited # of appearances he has held his ground good enough for us to play well offensively at the position.

Given all of that, if Flowers can't go at LT we can put Pugh in at LT and we'll be okay. That's my opinion. I was just getting tired of reading about how we need a better option at LT and how we should have brought in Clady, or someone like him.

We have a guy the Giants believe in at LT and we have a second guy the Giants believe can play LT. We don't need to specifically bring in a third guy, especially if he's older and expensive, just to play LT. LT is the most expensive position to fill on the OL and it also is the most difficult one to fill. As such, we should be thinking that we're going with plan A (Flowers) with a decent plan B (Pugh) if plan A fails for any reason.

I'm not opposed to bringing in talent on the OL. I agree that upgrades are needed and would be welcomed. I'd just prefer we find an upgrade at positions other than LT.
Can be a great LG, might become an adequate LT  
Bob in Newburgh : 8/24/2016 8:54 am : link
Pugh is a very good athlete for an o-lineman. He is not a phenomenal, or even great, athlete for a LT.

We are back to his lack of length in his reach. Short-armed plus non-phenomenal athleticism puts a relatively low ceiling on his potential at LT.
Few effective pro tackles are 6'4 308 with short arms and legs  
JonC : 8/24/2016 9:06 am : link
Pugh has proven to be a better player sealing trap blocks, pulling and hitting moving targets downfield, and keeping the interior of the pocket clean in front of Eli, imo.

He could prove adequate if Flowers absolutely bombs out, but I'd wager they'll continue to bank on the longterm upside of EF at LT, and continuity on the whole, especially at LT-LG-C where the trio has performed above average.

I'd agree they have bigger fish to fry in terms of urgent needs, namely RT and RG.
overall, whereas most poo-poo'd  
idiotsavant : 8/24/2016 1:02 pm : link
The notion last spring, now it is seen as worth looking at, and whereas there were good even great free agent guards available in the spring, for just this contingency, and whereas it was suggested and rejected, those guards are not available on the fall typically.
typo  
idiotsavant : 8/24/2016 1:03 pm : link
In the fall
looking back at deihl  
idiotsavant : 8/24/2016 1:09 pm : link
His technique may not have been typical, but what I remember was he kept his feet moving and got a helmet on a face of and onrushing sam/de type with aggression.

Each player is different.
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