This is meant to be objective but with a positive spin. Too much doom and gloom around here. Let's take a look at the top 10 guys (forget the rest why bother).
Right now it looks like there are 6 guys who could be called serviceable or better. The five who finished last year and Hart. To me serviceable means they deserve a uniform on Sun and they give you a chance to compete. Furthermore if you had 4 solid guys this "serviceable"player would not hurt. The issue right now is you have 3 of these types on the line. You can't function consistently well with that. Looking at the five players Flowers has upside and Jerry has in the past demonstrated at times adequate play. Which leaves the RT. Not only do we want Newhouse replaced so does the team. (Look at his contract his original projection when brought here, their interest in Conklin at the draft). He's a warm body. Hart has upside and even if he's not quite ready he may get the nod and the team will hope he grows into the position. That would also make having Jerry in there a more serviceable option. Beyond these 6 Cleary has some upside and potential as he's played at both guard and tackle. He could develope into quality depth. All the rest are just warm bodies even for back ups. 9 is the number usually kept. I don't see 2 others worth keeping not by resume or performance. Realistically 7 is about as good as it gets around the league back up center seems to be the biggest depth need.
let's get some "objective"feedback
They lost a lot of games because there was no defense last year, and also looked bad this time around.
Eli has a legit #2 this year, all is NOT lost!!
I have no idea about the next crop of OL draftees, but its probably a big reason why we aren't blowing through the rest of our cap. We will probably be spending again next year to sure up a Tackle position, possible a Guard too.
"It looked like more struggles from Ereck Flowers. Brad Bars had at least two good rushes against Flowers off the edge. Then Flowers looked like he hooked Kerry Wynn when Wynn also beat him around the edge.
Flowers did manage to hold his own against Mark Herzlich. He and Bobby Hart, the latter in for Justin Pugh, did a nice job handling a stunt.
Scout team member Jake Rodgers, playing left tackle kept Olivier Vernon out of the backfield. Rodgers extended and kept swatting Vernon away, staying in front of him the whole time."
Time to move on. They can play better and they know it.
Does anyone remember Denver's record last preseason? How about the 2011 Giants preseason record? How did the Giants passing game look during that 2011 preseason?
The OL won't be worse than last year unless it's beset by injuries. Odds are it will be better than last year based on the maturation of Richburg, Pugh and Flowers and another year of continuity.
This is one of the most ridiculous weeks in BBI history. And that's saying something.
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You heard it here first.
Hahaha -I just saw this after making that last post. Rodgers to LT, Flowers to RT -let it begin!
Last year it was Rogers Gaines. This year it's Jake Rodgers.
I'm trying to keep the "Rodgers" thing going as long as i can.
Does anyone remember Denver's record last preseason? How about the 2011 Giants preseason record? How did the Giants passing game look during that 2011 preseason?
The OL won't be worse than last year unless it's beset by injuries. Odds are it will be better than last year based on the maturation of Richburg, Pugh and Flowers and another year of continuity.
This is one of the most ridiculous weeks in BBI history. And that's saying something.
It's like banging one's head against the wall..Hayte statements like, "I KNOW it's only preseason, BUT....." Iirc, didn't the Lions go 5-0 in preseason the year they went 0-16?
Would you rather have a guy like John Jerry who plays every snap, makes very little money and gives the Giants coaching staff every thing they could possibly ask or a guy that makes money money and misses 4-8 games?
Teams can win with average but reliable players. Matter of fact, that player is essential.
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I expected a huge leap froward ad that doesn't seem to have happened. If it had I would doubt we'd be worrying this much. We'd have had a very strong left side and that would have been enough to balance out the weaker right side. Jerry and Newhouse aren't my biggest worry at the moment.
Bill, there have only been two glorified scrimmages with limited snaps
You missed last year?
That is kind of irrelevant to how the oline will play this year. His age is a cause for patience long term but doesn't mean he wont continue to struggle this year and the team will be worse off because of it.
Not every player gets better from their rookie season. Some get worse.
And played, heroically and aggressively on one leg last year..
The issues with the line problems go deeper than Marshall and Jerry.The problems were years in the making.
Pugh was drafted to be a tackle not a guard. He is now playing left guard. This created a hole at tackle.
Flowers was drafted to be the left tackle and he has not demonstrated that he can play tackle. It is possible that he may end up playing guard.
Beatty was expected to be the starting left tackle and was released after obtaining an extension.
Schwartz was signed as free agent to play right tackle. He was given an opportunity at right guard and was released.
The one stabilizing player is Richburg. He was drafted as a center has developed into a very good player.
Newhouse and Jerry were brought in to create depth behind the starters. However, due to circumstances they are both starting. They would make excellent back ups.
The remaining depth is Hart, a low draft pick, that the Giants hope can play multiple positions and some undrafted free agents.
As noted over the years the Giants have spent considerable resources in attempting to upgrade the offensive line.
This past year the Giants did nothing to either improve the starting line or too even create competition for depth.
The need was readily apparent so the lack of improvement would make one think that the Giants were constrained from spending additional resources to improve the line.
Please make the stupidity stop.
I expect Flowers to get better but it doesnt mean he will. I could easily be wrong. It's just as assumption. Most articles about him in camp are that he's still struggling with the same technique issues.
My guess is he improves greatly in the run game but still struggle in pass pro. We'll see.
Actually it was from Pat Traina. I hope you are right.
Please make the stupidity stop.
Has flowers done as well a the other members of his draft class? The answer is no. Collins, OO, Davis have all shown more improvement than him. Flowers still has time to show improvement both this year and in the future. But pointing out he hasn't made the progress that the other 2015 picks have made is a legitimate critique. Calling it stupidity is just that, stupid.
Those examples are either unproveable or ridiculous.
OO didn't play a meaningful snap last year. Davis maybe played a handful. So far in preseason, OO looks good (since he's healthy) and Davis hasn't done much.
Collins played out of position and he's looked OK in preseason.
Realistically, you don't know how much improvement any of the players have shown and you won't know until Week 1.
The issues with the line problems go deeper than Marshall and Jerry.The problems were years in the making.
Pugh was drafted to be a tackle not a guard. He is now playing left guard. This created a hole at tackle.
Pugh was drafted to play RT because the Giants didn't have one and he was the last guy left on the board who had any chance of starting right away. There's no reason to believe that the Giants viewed him as a OT long-term.
Flowers would have begun his career as a RT if Will Beatty had not gotten hurt. Perhaps his career would have mirrored the Cowboys' Tyron Smith, who spent two years at RT before moving over to LT, but the Giants did not have the luxury of grooming Flowers like the Cowboys did with Smith. Stuff happens. Now, all of sudden he's D.J. Fluker? Slow down, Red Ryder.
Beatty did not show the commitment to the team that the Giants were looking for after the Giants showed their commitment to him by extending him. Clearly, the Giants are trying to change their culture, and cutting bait with players like Beatty is a big part of that.
Right after the Giants signed Schwartz, they said he would play LG (even though he'd made his bones as an RG in KC). Schwartz appeared in 13 out of a possible 32 games for the Giants, and that's why he was given his release. They couldn't count on him to stay healthy.
Newhouse and Jerry were brought in to create depth behind the starters. However, due to circumstances they are both starting. They would make excellent back ups.
Circumstances happen. Your swing-tackle has to start due to an injury to a starter. Your backup RG has to start for the same reason. Both players, however had considerable starting experience to begin with, and as bad as they've been, the Giants could have done a lot worse.
What team's backups aren't primarily lower-round draft picks or UDFAs?
You do what you can with the resources you have. Clearly, the Giants prioritized repairing a historically bad defense. The opportunities to upgrade their O-Line in free agency were few and far between and very far from ideal. In the draft, again, defense was a priority. They couldn't fix every problem they had in this one offseason, so they fixed what they could.
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Has flowers done as well a the other members of his draft class? The answer is no. Collins, OO, Davis have all shown more improvement than him
Those examples are either unproveable or ridiculous.
OO didn't play a meaningful snap last year. Davis maybe played a handful. So far in preseason, OO looks good (since he's healthy) and Davis hasn't done much.
Collins played out of position and he's looked OK in preseason.
Realistically, you don't know how much improvement any of the players have shown and you won't know until Week 1.
thank you Fats
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Has flowers done as well a the other members of his draft class? The answer is no. Collins, OO, Davis have all shown more improvement than him
Those examples are either unproveable or ridiculous.
OO didn't play a meaningful snap last year. Davis maybe played a handful. So far in preseason, OO looks good (since he's healthy) and Davis hasn't done much.
Collins played out of position and he's looked OK in preseason.
Realistically, you don't know how much improvement any of the players have shown and you won't know until Week 1.
All we have is the practice reports and limited game time. All of the other picks have had better reports and shown in the games as well. Davis has gone from the #6 WR to the #3. OO has had impacts in the games and good practice reports. Collins move to his more natural position had been a positive one by all accounts and from what we've seen in the games. Flowers, not so much. That's all I'm saying.
When you hear that a player who needs coaching was not taking well to coaching as a rookie, it's okay to be concerned.
Muscles and wanting to be on the field even when you're hurt is not all that it takes to be a good left tackle.
Add in it being a preseason game where a player has a limited amount of snaps and it gets even less pertinent.
If we won 21-0, my guess is that the blocking wouldn't have been highlighted.
I'm still surprised at the number of people who really treat a 21-0 preseason loss as an indicator of everything. I know after all this time I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.
However,that does not change the fact that over the years the Giants spent extensive resources to improve the line. The Giants signed free agents(Schwartz, Jerry, Newhouse), spent(3)first round picks(Beatty, Flowers,and Pugh)and a second round pick (Richburg).
The line is clearly not what management had hopped it would be.
As you mention the Giants first priority was to improve the defense. Which I believe that they did.
I think that the Giants were "hamstrung" by both their prior investments in the offense and their expenditures on the defense.
The Net result is that the offensive line is the same as last year and we are hoping for better results.
However,that does not change the fact that over the years the Giants spent extensive resources to improve the line. The Giants signed free agents(Schwartz, Jerry, Newhouse), spent(3)first round picks(Beatty, Flowers,and Pugh)and a second round pick (Richburg).
The line is clearly not what management had hopped it would be.
As you mention the Giants first priority was to improve the defense. Which I believe that they did.
I think that the Giants were "hamstrung" by both their prior investments in the offense and their expenditures on the defense.
The Net result is that the offensive line is the same as last year and we are hoping for better results.
Beatty was a 2nd round pick as well
However,that does not change the fact that over the years the Giants spent extensive resources to improve the line. The Giants signed free agents(Schwartz, Jerry, Newhouse), spent(3)first round picks(Beatty, Flowers,and Pugh)and a second round pick (Richburg).
The line is clearly not what management had hopped it would be.
As you mention the Giants first priority was to improve the defense. Which I believe that they did.
I think that the Giants were "hamstrung" by both their prior investments in the offense and their expenditures on the defense.
The Net result is that the offensive line is the same as last year and we are hoping for better results.
First of all, Beatty was a 2nd Round pick in 2009, who got his extension in 2012.
Second, the Giants weren't "hamstrung" by anything other than a poor return on their O-Line investments due to injuries. See Shawn Andrews, David Baas and Geoff Schwartz, and, to a lesser extent, Will Beatty.
Third, the larger problem (which you don't even mention) is the failure to successfully develop any mid-to-late round OL prospects such as Brandon Mosley, James Brewer, or Mitch Petrus (to name three), as they'd done in the past with David Diehl, Rich Seubert, and UFA Kevin Boothe. Is that a failure of management or the coaching staff? Your guess is as good as mine, but it's probably why management held off using premium draft resources on O-Linemen a year or two before the "sea change" in 2013.
You also have to factor in that you don't completely revamp an O-Line overnight. It took the Cowboys four years to build the O-Line they have now, using several premium draft picks, hitting on a UDFA like Ron Leary, and lucking out with La'El Collins. How long did it take the Giants to build their dominant 2008 O-Line? Four years? Five? When you're dealing with a finite amount of resources and you have other priorities as well - mostly due to an inordinate amount of catastrophic injuries - you can only do so much with what you have.
Of course they're hoping for better results from the O-Line this year. Weston Richburg is back for a second year at his natural Center position, and Justin Pugh is going into this second year at LG. Ereck Flowers has a year of NFL experience under his belt and his ankle issue is behind him. What TTH says about him and his acceptance of coaching (or lack thereof) is troubling, but he's still a kid and the hope is that with the help and encouragement of his new position coach and his teammates he'll get his act together.
John Jerry, for all of his faults, has at least shown some commitment to the team by attending LeCharles Bentley's offseason camp for O-Linemen. He's also in a contract year, which may give him some extra motivation to excel. We'll see.
You can say that Marshall Newhouse has underachieved as a starter, but I don't think he's been as bad as most people maintain. And let's not forget that he started all sixteen games at LT for a Packers team that went 15-1 while Ben McAdoo was there, so the coach probably has a little more faith in him than most Giant fans do.
Regardless, it's not like the Giants purposely blew off any reasonable chances to upgrade their O-Line. I just don't think it was in the cards this year, so they're content - for better or worse - to go to war with the army they have, not the army they wish they had.
Dude, newhouse sucks as a starter. He's a backup player starting. He sucks in the role he's in. Give me a break. If you can't see that i can't help you.
1. Rookie Flowers is not pro bowl yet and still makes many errors and penalties.
2. Thank God for Pugh!
3. Richburg is a fair player and tends to be overrated by BBI
4. Jerry sucks (i know he's trying but he still sucks)
5. Newhouse begs the question of who sucks more, him or Jerry. I can't figure that out.
6. We haven't been able to run block in four seasons. 5 counting this one.
7. We changed an entire offense to get the ball quicker out of Eli's hands to make up for the O-Line weaknesses and now our receivers barely have time to get open.
8. After 4 years of such an obvious problem for this team JR just doesn't understand how vital an exceptional O-Line is to a football team.
9. When we go up against any team with a very good D-Line we are going to lose this year.
10. Mac thinks we are fine with the current talent on the o-Line and that makes me wonder if this rookie coach can get us to the playoffs.
11. The patience some have expressed on BBI with the o-line is admirable, optimistic but unjustified, and will soon disappear.
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replace an average player with a good one at the drop of a hat. Regarding Jerry and Newhouse - yes - they are not great players - they are considered average. But they don't suck - not in the least. And for Reese not to blow the cap wad to bring in a few guys that wouldn't be here long term anyway I think was a good move. Look at the FA class next year and the draft - there will be plenty of options to keep improving the line.
Dude, newhouse sucks as a starter. He's a backup player starting. He sucks in the role he's in. Give me a break. If you can't see that i can't help you.
ODB, did you ever see the movie Rio Bravo, starring John Wayne? He plays a sheriff facing a gang of hired gunmen out to free a killer that Wayne has locked up in his jail. He doesn't have much help, and when a friend of his says, "A game-legged old man and a drunk. That's all you've got? Wayne replies, "That's what I've got."
Well, Marshall Newhouse is what we've got...for now.
I just can't understand why he would use a 1st Round pick on an O-Lineman in 2013, a 2nd Round pick on one in 2014, and another 1st Round pick on one in 2015, when it's obvious that he doesn't think having a good O-Line is very important. What a maroon.
Tell me what he did this year to improve it?
Fair may be a little weak but he is not the second coming of centers that BBI props him up to be and he is VERY far from being the best Center in the league and many scouts are NOT saying he is. I'll say he can become the best in a few years but he's still basically a rookie and learning and he does get bat by the better players.
Good front seven ..
My concern has been and still is the right side in the run
game . Obviously as a whole the offense played poorly to
down right Ugly . They are seasoned veterans and I expect
they will bounce back from all the criticism and play
respectfully . But good Lord if Richberg or Pugh goes down
it will be an unmitigated disaster .
Hopefully a guy like Jake Rodgers will emerge and best case
scenario unseat Newhouse who is fine as a backup but is
limited as a starter .
The Tightends have to be better than what they have shown
and getting Will Johnson back could help in the run game
I don't think its impossible to make a deal with somewhere to add a possible starter or quality depth .
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your assessment of Richburg is not only wrong, but it is the opposite of what many scouts are saying about him - that he might be the best center in the league already.
Fair may be a little weak but he is not the second coming of centers that BBI props him up to be and he is VERY far from being the best Center in the league and many scouts are NOT saying he is. I'll say he can become the best in a few years but he's still basically a rookie and learning and he does get bat by the better players.
Nicky, he allowed the least amount of pressures of any center in the league last year. Every "scout" or NFL website has him in the top 3 or 5 - some of them 1. Just stop.
Tell me what he did this year to improve it?
That's "maroon," not "moron," and it was directed at Jerry Reese (albeit in jest), not you.
But, since you asked...
Four years ago, the O-Line was in sad shape. David Diehl, Chris Snee, and Kevin Boothe were on their last legs. David Baas was injured again. Mid-to-late round draft picks failed to develop.
Since then, as I said earlier, the Giants invested two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick in their O-Line, and they also brought in some free agents with mixed results. I'm sorry that the O-Line hasn't been fixed fast enough to suit you, but the fact is that it's not that easy to build a dominant O-Line in four years without a good bit of luck, and the Giants have come up short in the luck department for the past three years. This year, as I've said repeatedly, the opportunities didn't present themselves for any serious upgrades to the O-Line. So, for this one year, that had to be put on the back burner in favor of other more pressing needs.
Again, I'm sorry you don't understand this, but my guess is that you don't understand a lot of things when it comes to the Giants, so feel free to make as many ill-informed posts as you desire. It's so much easier to bash the FO than it is to make any serious suggestions for turning things around, so, please tell us what you would have done this year to set things straight. We're all waiting with baited breath to hear you spout off again.
First of all, even if statements were made, you dont know what the thinking,hopes were. In addition, its always subject to many factors once play starts, performance, need, other players...nor do any of us know what was going on on draft day.