NFT: Last stand for Mets? Game 3 8/25 Chat

After the thrilling win on Wednesday. Not sure this team has it in them to come up big tonight after that knockdown last night with their Ace on the mound. Lets see if this team has any fight left.

But its just a job for these major leaguers. Hes a Pirates fan anyways.


Do or die! Its the Alamo for the 2016 New York Mets

he and Syndergaard have to be stellar for them to make a run.

to be coming out of the bullpen this time of year? lol. What a mess...

are doing even more impressive. Kershaw is still out, basically their entire starting rotation has seen the DL at some point, they've set a record for most players sent to the DL in one year, gotten nothing from Puig, and are now leading the NL West.

Kudos to their org and front office for using the advantages of a big market to build a ton of depth. Even if the Mets rebound in the next few years (and I think we all expect they will if they can Cespedes), getting back to the world series won't be easy with the Cubs and Dodgers being completely stacked full of depth.

velocity looked there so maybe it's more of a mechanical issue than fatigue? What a frustrating year... he was completely cruising a week ago and starting to creep into Cy Young long shot zone and has gotten completely shelled the past two outings (albeit on the road against tough lineups).

fail to develop ANY positional players.

How bad is it?

Last 2 games ... 9.2 innings ... 186 pitches ... 25 hits ...

they should consider skipping a start for DeGrom. He is probably running on fumes right now

consider shutting down Thor/Matz/DeGrom? 7 back? 5 back in September? Shutting them down is brutal for season ticket and plan holders, but it's probably best long term to limit the innings a bit for these guys.

My guess is they'll keep running them out there until they are completely out of it and maybe they'll shut them down for the last 2-4 starts at most.

In comment 13085670 Metnut said:

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are doing even more impressive. Kershaw is still out, basically their entire starting rotation has seen the DL at some point, they've set a record for most players sent to the DL in one year, gotten nothing from Puig, and are now leading the NL West. Kudos to their org and front office for using the advantages of a big market to build a ton of depth. Even if the Mets rebound in the next few years (and I think we all expect they will if they can Cespedes), getting back to the world series won't be easy with the Cubs and Dodgers being completely stacked full of depth.

I wouldn't compare the Dodgers situation to ours at all. They have a payroll of an obscene 250 million and out muscled teams for players by absorbing awful contracts. They also haven't had to deal with nearly the amount of injuries we have. Sure they lost Kershaw for half a season (Harvey) and a young-ish player took a step backwards in Puig(Conforto) but they would have to lose a hell of a lot more than that to equal the Dudas, Wright's, Cespedes's, TDA's, Wheeler's, Matz's, and Syndergaards IMO...

In comment 13085683 spike said:

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fail to develop ANY positional players.

That's funny because literally every single first round pick Sandy's taken seems to be developing or progressing nicely through the system. Conforto took a step back this year (not uncommon) but who really thinks Conforto wont be a good player going forward? In the very least every single one of these players will make it to the majors in some capacity.

In comment 13085757 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 13085683 spike said: Quote: fail to develop ANY positional players. That's funny because literally every single first round pick Sandy's taken seems to be developing or progressing nicely through the system. Conforto took a step back this year (not uncommon) but who really thinks Conforto wont be a good player going forward? In the very least every single one of these players will make it to the majors in some capacity.

I hope so! Most of the positional players are veterans developed by other teams. Murphy is probably the last "star" positional player developed by the Mets.

In comment 13085765 spike said:

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In comment 13085757 ZGiants98 said: Quote: In comment 13085683 spike said: Quote: fail to develop ANY positional players. That's funny because literally every single first round pick Sandy's taken seems to be developing or progressing nicely through the system. Conforto took a step back this year (not uncommon) but who really thinks Conforto wont be a good player going forward? In the very least every single one of these players will make it to the majors in some capacity. I hope so! Most of the positional players are veterans developed by other teams. Murphy is probably the last "star" positional player developed by the Mets.

Didn't mean to jump on you but it takes more than 5 years to come through a system in most cases, especially when you are going high school early and often. TDA, Duda, Flores, and Conforto were either completely developed or partially developed here. The rest just haven't arrived yet. I think a better question would be which high profile players haven't developed under Sandy's watch?

he's not a good catcher and he isn't hitting enough to make up for it.

In comment 13085747 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 13085670 Metnut said: Quote: are doing even more impressive. Kershaw is still out, basically their entire starting rotation has seen the DL at some point, they've set a record for most players sent to the DL in one year, gotten nothing from Puig, and are now leading the NL West. Kudos to their org and front office for using the advantages of a big market to build a ton of depth. Even if the Mets rebound in the next few years (and I think we all expect they will if they can Cespedes), getting back to the world series won't be easy with the Cubs and Dodgers being completely stacked full of depth. I wouldn't compare the Dodgers situation to ours at all. They have a payroll of an obscene 250 million and out muscled teams for players by absorbing awful contracts. They also haven't had to deal with nearly the amount of injuries we have. Sure they lost Kershaw for half a season (Harvey) and a young-ish player took a step backwards in Puig(Conforto) but they would have to lose a hell of a lot more than that to equal the Dudas, Wright's, Cespedes's, TDA's, Wheeler's, Matz's, and Syndergaards IMO...

I see what you're saying but regardless of payroll the Mets are competing with the Dodgers in the NL so they can't use payroll as an excuse, especially playing in NY with a newer ballpark. If the Mets had the Dodgers injures to the rotation they'd likely be 10 games below .500 (or worse) considering their 6th and 7th starters out of spring training were Logan Verret and Sean Gilmartin. Kershaw is also better than any pitcher the Mets have (and better than any pitcher alive) and it's not close.

Also, some of the guys you named either havn't really been affected by injury (Thor is still having a great year), shouldn't have been relied on to begin with (Wheeler and Wright), have stunk when healthy (TDA), or were solid players whose injury hit us really hard because of a complete lack of depth at the position (Duda). Yea, Mets have had a bad run with injuries this year but the Dodgers have had it pretty shitty too. It's just that their front office and ownership are obsessed and relentless with acquiring talent and are completely on the same page. Pretty incredible story IMO.

If the Mets don't get into the playoffs, I'll probably root for the Dodgers in the NL playoffs. I'm too young to really remember 1988 and Kershaw is one of my favorite non-Mets. Also, fuck the Nationals, the Cubs and Cardinals.

of the Mets, but not trying to rip them, just tipping cap to the Dodgers. I like our front office (but hated the Bruce trade and ripped it apart before it was even confirmed) but really hope they fire Collins and bring a more "thinking" manager here.

I still can't fathom why he's starting washed up Kelly Johnson over TJ Rivera (or Flores or anyone else). Also, seeing how the Cardinals' all play multiple positions so that they can have the best team out there each night but the Mets refuse to even try anyone else at 1B so we're stuck with the worst 1B in MLB infuriates me.

In comment 13085798 Victor in CT said:

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he's not a good catcher and he isn't hitting enough to make up for it.

How's that? One of our best hitters last year and a guy that is now back hitting since he's returned and having to watch complete zero Plawecki for months in his place wasn't a loss or downgrade?

little better but hard to say he's really hitting. His crappy performance this year is a big reason why we missed out on Lucroy and couldn't improve the team at the deadline.

d'Arnaud is still a shitty catcher. And the Mets know he is, as evidenced when they tried to deal him away and upgrade for Lucroy. And if they were smart, they would have given up more (if MIL had interest in other prospects) to pull that deal off. THAT trade would have been much better than the Bruce trade.

In comment 13085822 Metnut said:

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In comment 13085747 ZGiants98 said: Quote: In comment 13085670 Metnut said: Quote: are doing even more impressive. Kershaw is still out, basically their entire starting rotation has seen the DL at some point, they've set a record for most players sent to the DL in one year, gotten nothing from Puig, and are now leading the NL West. Kudos to their org and front office for using the advantages of a big market to build a ton of depth. Even if the Mets rebound in the next few years (and I think we all expect they will if they can Cespedes), getting back to the world series won't be easy with the Cubs and Dodgers being completely stacked full of depth. I wouldn't compare the Dodgers situation to ours at all. They have a payroll of an obscene 250 million and out muscled teams for players by absorbing awful contracts. They also haven't had to deal with nearly the amount of injuries we have. Sure they lost Kershaw for half a season (Harvey) and a young-ish player took a step backwards in Puig(Conforto) but they would have to lose a hell of a lot more than that to equal the Dudas, Wright's, Cespedes's, TDA's, Wheeler's, Matz's, and Syndergaards IMO... I see what you're saying but regardless of payroll the Mets are competing with the Dodgers in the NL so they can't use payroll as an excuse, especially playing in NY with a newer ballpark. If the Mets had the Dodgers injures to the rotation they'd likely be 10 games below .500 (or worse) considering their 6th and 7th starters out of spring training were Logan Verret and Sean Gilmartin. Kershaw is also better than any pitcher the Mets have (and better than any pitcher alive) and it's not close. Also, some of the guys you named either havn't really been affected by injury (Thor is still having a great year), shouldn't have been relied on to begin with (Wheeler and Wright), have stunk when healthy (TDA), or were solid players whose injury hit us really hard because of a complete lack of depth at the position (Duda). Yea, Mets have had a bad run with injuries this year but the Dodgers have had it pretty shitty too. It's just that their front office and ownership are obsessed and relentless with acquiring talent and are completely on the same page. Pretty incredible story IMO. If the Mets don't get into the playoffs, I'll probably root for the Dodgers in the NL playoffs. I'm too young to really remember 1988 and Kershaw is one of my favorite non-Mets. Also, fuck the Nationals, the Cubs and Cardinals.

No offense but I dont agree with that at all. First, we all know we had some financial issues to deal with (Madoff) but the Mets have recovered and are once again playing in big boy waters (150 millionish payroll) and need to be weary of increases in arbitration to many of their young starters in the coming years. It's likely to only go up further. Ironically, the Dodgers also went through severe financial issues a few years back before they were saved by MLB and handed over to owners who spend like drunkin sailors. Absorbing awful contracts like Crawford so they could get a Adrian Gonzalez on the roster is just bad baseball IMO. In the very least, there is nothing commendable about it. There 250 million dollar payroll wasn't any more talented than ours and I think we proved that last year.

Im still not buying the injury excuse. The Dodgers had a weak rotation going in outside of Kershaw. They didn't have high profile guys like Syndergaard, Matz, and Wheeler filling out the rest of their rotation. Heading in, Harvey was the ACE of the best rotation in baseball. Harvey was a mess all year before he was eventually KO'd. Losing Kershaw for half a season in terms of expectations is probably equal. Wheeler was supposed to be back by now and Matz and Syndergaard have dealt with injuries all year. Move over to the lineup where literally almost everyone was out for stretches. Adrian Gonzalez(who they've had) alone equals Duda. Who in their lineup equals Cespedes? Nobody. It's just not even close IMO.

fault the Mets are rolling with TDA last year. Kid looked like a complete stud last yer and had the pedigree to back it up. But, it's not fair to really list him as an injury that's hurt the team when he's completely regressed when healthy.

I'd be fine with rolling with TDA again next year. For me, this offseason is about keeping Cespedes, adding a 5th starter type, signing one of the top bullpen arms on the market, and declining Bruce's option. Hopefully the team just gets some better luck next year.

In comment 13085848 Metnut said:

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little better but hard to say he's really hitting. His crappy performance this year is a big reason why we missed out on Lucroy and couldn't improve the team at the deadline.

TDA has been hitting over league average since the deadline (outstanding for a catcher) and I would hardly consider adding a 30 HR bat and NL RBI leader "not improving the team" regardless of how he's hit since he's got here.

Z, but I disagree with you on the Dodgers for reasons said in my other post, let's just agree to disagree.

One thing I'll add though is that Corey Seager doesn't just equal Cespedes but is better IMO. He might be the best player in baseball right now. He's 22 years old, already bagged 6.6 WAR this year and has a 146 wRC. A complete stud.

In comment 13085852 Victor in CT said:

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d'Arnaud is still a shitty catcher. And the Mets know he is, as evidenced when they tried to deal him away and upgrade for Lucroy. And if they were smart, they would have given up more (if MIL had interest in other prospects) to pull that deal off. THAT trade would have been much better than the Bruce trade.

Well, that's your opinion. I disagree.

In comment 13085869 Metnut said:

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Z, but I disagree with you on the Dodgers for reasons said in my other post, let's just agree to disagree. One thing I'll add though is that Corey Seager doesn't just equal Cespedes but is better IMO. He might be the best player in baseball right now. He's 22 years old, already bagged 6.6 WAR this year and has a 146 wRC. A complete stud.

Ok fair enough. Now we are talking though. Remove Seager (Cespedes), remove Gonzalez (Duda), and count Puig as a step back (Conforto) and we are getting close. Ill leave out Wright, TDA, (Reyes and Cabrera during a crucial stretch) and others just for the sake of argument....

In comment 13085865 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 13085848 Metnut said: Quote: I would hardly consider adding a 30 HR bat and NL RBI leader "not improving the team" regardless of how he's hit since he's got here.

RBIs? Cmon. The guy has been barely replacement or worse by both fWar and bWar over a 3 three period. That's a lot of ABs. He stinks. Just please don't pick up his option next year. Paying almost $30M for both Bruce and Granderson when we have Conforto and (hopefully) Cespedes would be stupid.

In comment 13085877 Metnut said:

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In comment 13085865 ZGiants98 said: Quote: In comment 13085848 Metnut said: Quote: I would hardly consider adding a 30 HR bat and NL RBI leader "not improving the team" regardless of how he's hit since he's got here. RBIs? Cmon. The guy has been barely replacement or worse by both fWar and bWar over a 3 three period. That's a lot of ABs. He stinks. Just please don't pick up his option next year. Paying almost $30M for both Bruce and Granderson when we have Conforto and (hopefully) Cespedes would be stupid.

While I agree RBIs are useless as a stat, Bruce had a wRC+ of over 120 at the time of the trade and was a left handed power bat, something we desperately needed with Duda out and Conforto struggling. Is that star production? No. But that's still pretty damn nice. I could care less about WAR from a CO spot. It's an offensive position. Bruce will 100% be back next year and I'm betting we could flip him for a nice package if we wanted to.

Reyes
Cabrera
Cespedes
Loney
Granderson
Flores
De Aza
R Rivera
Lugo

I posted something similar last night. This team is draining to watch this year. There have been so many poor years but with the expectations and last year's WS appearance, these losses sting more so than they have in years past.

I welcome any Yankees fan who is reading this thread to comment. And like I stated yesterday, as far as NY rivalries, the Yankees aren't a team I hate. But man, it's frustrating to share the city with a franchise that basically went through a rebuild so quickly where our Mets seem to be on a downward spiral.

Of course I am not jumping teams but it in a natural comparison to our cross town rivals, how the hell did they tear it down and build it up so quick?

In comment 13086480 Drewcon40 said:

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I posted something similar last night. This team is draining to watch this year. There have been so many poor years but with the expectations and last year's WS appearance, these losses sting more so than they have in years past. I welcome any Yankees fan who is reading this thread to comment. And like I stated yesterday, as far as NY rivalries, the Yankees aren't a team I hate. But man, it's frustrating to share the city with a franchise that basically went through a rebuild so quickly where our Mets seem to be on a downward spiral. Of course I am not jumping teams but it in a natural comparison to our cross town rivals, how the hell did they tear it down and build it up so quick?

The Yankees last won a World Series in 2009. They've been dying a slow death since then. I'd hardly call it a quick turn around even if their young players all do work out. I'd also calm down a little with the whole rebuild nonsense being over with. They have a ways to go with their rotation and as we've seen with Conforto and TDA, some guys light the world on fire when they first come up and then struggle later once the league figures them out. Maybe they are rebuilt next year but maybe they aren't.

Our bullpen is a bit gassed.

Give me six baby and score score some more runs!

That was kind of a "meh" addition at the time IMO but he has really played well so far.

Big insurance run out there

Grandy

.

We really needed to get Cespedes in. Cmon, Wilmer.

In comment 13086654 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

In comment 13086480 Drewcon40 said: Quote: I posted something similar last night. This team is draining to watch this year. There have been so many poor years but with the expectations and last year's WS appearance, these losses sting more so than they have in years past. I welcome any Yankees fan who is reading this thread to comment. And like I stated yesterday, as far as NY rivalries, the Yankees aren't a team I hate. But man, it's frustrating to share the city with a franchise that basically went through a rebuild so quickly where our Mets seem to be on a downward spiral. Of course I am not jumping teams but it in a natural comparison to our cross town rivals, how the hell did they tear it down and build it up so quick? The Yankees last won a World Series in 2009. They've been dying a slow death since then. I'd hardly call it a quick turn around even if their young players all do work out. I'd also calm down a little with the whole rebuild nonsense being over with. They have a ways to go with their rotation and as we've seen with Conforto and TDA, some guys light the world on fire when they first come up and then struggle later once the league figures them out. Maybe they are rebuilt next year but maybe they aren't.

Yeah, Sanchez has been impressive and good for the Yankees but there will almost certainly be a big adjustment period with him. I mean, Sanchez has done a great job hitting HRs on slow, lollipop pitches directly over the plate but let's see how he does when the pitchers catch up to him and give him nothing to hit. A lot like Conforto from last year and this year. Conforto is known for having a great eye but this year pitchers were giving him NOTHING to hit and he started chasing. But the Yanks do have some nice prospects. But they also have to deal with a tough division that is getting better. We'll probably have to deal with the same in the near future. Let's just hope our own studs turn it on and grow into pros.

:)

is broken open!!!

My boy!

Feel like I was watching the Mets there not cards

Amazing what some playing time will do for a guy.

Phi! Agree!

Who needs regular at bats to produce but when you give him consistent at bats he only produces at a slightly above average clip, which leaves him in an awkward spot as far as roster creation.

What Bruce was brought in to do

Gotta keep the foot on their throats and dont let up.

Do or Die Time, Mets!

In comment 13086690 bhill410 said:

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Who needs regular at bats to produce but when you give him consistent at bats he only produces at a slightly above average clip, which leaves him in an awkward spot as far as roster creation.

I just think with Lagares out he's been able to play even a LITTLE bit and it's helped a ton. He's still basically a bench player but in the early part of the season, he was buried and basically getting an atbat here and there every other week. I think that would have been difficult for any player. Never got the hatred for a guy with so few atbats.

While Granderson and Conforto were struggling so much out there

When we have seth Lugo sitting in AAA

Pirates leading 2-0 against the Brewers in the 3rd

the 7-9 innings and completely rest the pen heading into the Marlins series.

Next

In comment 13086701 spike said:

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When we have seth Lugo sitting in AAA

Gsellman showed some poise too. Ynoa might be interesting with some work with Warthen. Gilmartin was good last year. I always said we had some decent back end depth. Finally, we are starting to see some of it. I agree, I dont see why we gave Verrett so much leash with so many other options.

In comment 13086706 spike said:

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Next

You're right! Whoops! Sorry.

We can go into a 6 man rotation to keep these guys rested. Sept callups will be here to stock up the bullpen

This season is hilarious. Wow.

So I guess its not something serious with Lugo

Can't make it up, man. How does this even happen?

with Lugo but he doesn't seem like he's hurting too much. It's like Bruce coming out the game last night with hurt feelings...I mean hurt calf. Jesus Christ. Just fucking play.

Somebody in another thread asked if this season was written by Steven King? I laughed.

A back or a quad

Is fuckin wild

Bring back Blevins

Lugo just shut down a team that murdered deGrom yesterday. Of course they go right back to mashing as soon as he comes out.

I'm really at a loss for words.

Guy is on fire.

Phew

U gotta stay hydrated in the dugout, Sethp

In comment 13086756 spike said:

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Phew U gotta stay hydrated in the dugout, Sethp

Nice...

Bruce left with a calf cramp last night and Lugo leaves with a cramp tonight?

This team is soooooooooooft. Holy hell, this team needs a leader.

For Granderson.

Time to find Cuddyer to discuss post MLb plans

off a lefty.

We have to win this game or its season over. Let's get through these two innings and sweep the Phillies.

He wiuldve scored

In comment 13086780 ZGiants98 said:

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We have to win this game or its season over. Let's get through these two innings and sweep the Phillies.

Its imperative that we mash the Marlins at home too. Met killer Fernandez is pitching on Monday

open...

In comment 13086787 spike said:

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In comment 13086780 ZGiants98 said: Quote: We have to win this game or its season over. Let's get through these two innings and sweep the Phillies. Its imperative that we mash the Marlins at home too. Met killer Fernandez is pitching on Monday

Hopefully Walker and Bruce are back healthy and hitting by then.

cometh?

After being as dreadful as possible I guess the baseball gods are allowing him to even things out

oh well.

I guess Smoker gives up a ton of HR.

.

Sucks we have to bring Reed into a game like this though

But what kind of bullshit footwork was that by Loney? He's really not a very sound 1B. Keith mentions it all the time.

Here we go again. We just can't have an easy game. lol

.

Reyes/Reed.

For a FA vet pickup. Even better than TDA this season

He's had a nice year. Would have made a nice platoon guy.

In comment 13086855 spike said:

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For a FA vet pickup. Even better than TDA this season

I wouldn't go that far but he's basically the perfect backup. Very nice pickup.

Just 1 more out

These Cardinals homer and homer and homer.

We still have a pulse... It's faint but it's there...

We need to go to a 6 man rotation while reinforcements come in by the end of next week

Homestand against NL East rivals

Conforto 3 for 4 HR, 2R, 2 RBI, up to .426, ridiculous he's in LV.

Put Bruce on the DL and call up Conforto.

Kershaws personal caddy AJ Ellis and others for Carlos Ruiz of the Phillies

Terrible move imp

But Kirk is helping beat the Pirates tonight, not the Marlins. lol. Geesh. I need some sleep I guess.

In comment 13086896 spike said:

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Kershaws personal caddy AJ Ellis and others for Carlos Ruiz of the Phillies Terrible move imp

Here we go again. Last year it was Rollins, Utley, and Turner. Now they've added Ruiz. lol. That is a team filled of Mets bashers.

In comment 13086903 ZGiants98 said:

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But Kirk is helping beat the Pirates tonight, not the Marlins. lol. Geesh. I need some sleep I guess.

Pirates up 3-2 bottom 10th. Go Milwaukee!

for the Giants against the Dodgers in the 6th

In comment 13086896 spike said:

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Kershaws personal caddy AJ Ellis and others for Carlos Ruiz of the Phillies Terrible move imp

That would indicate to me that Kershaw isn't coming back this year

and big series win. Glad to see Flores have a productive game against a tough righty. De Aza has looked a lot better the past month. Hopefully we can call Conforto up ASAP and either DL Bruce or just bench him.

A sweep against the Phillies should be the goal this weekend with tough games to follow after the Philly series.

with RISP. His OPS is down to .373 (.120 BA) with runners in scoring position, which I believe is the worst number with more than 80 at bats in almost 100 years. By September 1st if he hasn't gotten hot I don't know how Conforto doesn't take his spot.