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Coughlin wasn't the problem...It was Reese

bigbluewreckingcrew25 : 8/29/2016 2:08 pm
Unfortunately Mr. Peanut has struck again. It is amazing how us fans can see glaring weaknesses in the team, yet here is Jerrah not upgrading the offensive line and the tight end possession. Not to mention the fact the man couldn't pick a decent LB if his life depended on it. In all actuality, the main cogs of our 2 Super Bowl runs were the product of the real great GM we had here for awhile, Ernie Accorsi. Eli Manning, Justin Tuck, Osi, Jacobs, Webster, O'Hara, Snee, Diehl, McKenzie, Seubert, Kiwi. The "2 timers" were almost exclusively pickups by Ernie.
Big if true...  
Tesla : 8/29/2016 2:10 pm : link
.
This  
Trainmaster : 8/29/2016 2:10 pm : link
will go well.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/29/2016 2:10 pm : link
Shit.. someone tell John Mara, maybe we can fire Jerry and get Tom back before it's too late!!!!
Ok, this has to be an attempt at being funny.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 2:11 pm : link
?
What is a TE possession?  
robbieballs2003 : 8/29/2016 2:11 pm : link
You realize how the draft works with the Giants, right? Well, obviously not if you posted this. I am not happy with Reese for not getting one of Okung, Clady, or Penn because we were dead set on having Flowers there even though he never earned the position. He never had competition. It was just blind faith that he would work out. But how can I get on him about not being able to draft a LB? It is a group effort when it comes to the draft.
Anyone with enough sense to look up accorsi's draft record  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/29/2016 2:12 pm : link
could basically call you a liar.
RE: Anyone with enough sense to look up accorsi's draft record  
Greg from LI : 8/29/2016 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13092707 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
could basically call you a liar.


I've done that post more times than I can count
TE  
bigbluewreckingcrew25 : 8/29/2016 2:13 pm : link
position. My anger at Bald Baldinger overtook my spelling abilities.
RE: What is a TE possession?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13092706 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
You realize how the draft works with the Giants, right? Well, obviously not if you posted this. I am not happy with Reese for not getting one of Okung, Clady, or Penn because we were dead set on having Flowers there even though he never earned the position. He never had competition. It was just blind faith that he would work out. But how can I get on him about not being able to draft a LB? It is a group effort when it comes to the draft.


Robbie, Okung was here but opted not to sign..Clady re-signed immediately, no? Penn never got on the plane and opted to re-sign with the Raiders
It's Jerry Reach -  
B in ALB : 8/29/2016 2:14 pm : link
not Reese for fuck sake. If you're going to complain like a mental patient at least get that part right.

And it's not about drafting or upgrading the TE Possession (whateverthefuck that is) - it's about being asleep at the wheel.
Clady  
bigbluewreckingcrew25 : 8/29/2016 2:14 pm : link
is on the Jets...who didn't have nearly the need we had/have
Coughlin wasn't the problem  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 2:14 pm : link
But sometimes change is a good thing. Firing Reese would accomplish nothing. How about you let things play out for 2 years and see how McAdoo does?
Let things play out for 2 years  
bigbluewreckingcrew25 : 8/29/2016 2:15 pm : link
Things have been playing out for the past 4 years and we have suuucccckkkeeeed.
They both were the problem  
jeff57 : 8/29/2016 2:17 pm : link
And both should have gone.
Clady was traded, not signed  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/29/2016 2:17 pm : link
he's also a massive injury risk.
RE: RE: What is a TE possession?  
robbieballs2003 : 8/29/2016 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13092715 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13092706 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


You realize how the draft works with the Giants, right? Well, obviously not if you posted this. I am not happy with Reese for not getting one of Okung, Clady, or Penn because we were dead set on having Flowers there even though he never earned the position. He never had competition. It was just blind faith that he would work out. But how can I get on him about not being able to draft a LB? It is a group effort when it comes to the draft.



Robbie, Okung was here but opted not to sign..Clady re-signed immediately, no? Penn never got on the plane and opted to re-sign with the Raiders


It was reported that we have had conversations about these players but wanted them as RTs. Why would Penn get on a plane if he doesn't want to play RT. If we wanted one of them bad enough they would have been here. If we said LT was a position they could play they would have had more interest.
Clady could have been had in a trade if we wanted.  
robbieballs2003 : 8/29/2016 2:19 pm : link
The point isn't to nitpick how they could have been acquired. The point is that management was dead set on keeping Flowers at LT at the expense of improving the team.
the giants do not win either superbowl  
nygiants16 : 8/29/2016 2:21 pm : link
without jerry reese's draft classes and signings
I'm as negative on Reese as anyone on this board......  
Reb8thVA : 8/29/2016 2:21 pm : link
and am angry at the state of the OL. However, I've grown tired of listening to myself complain and typing the same complaints so I've stopped. Maybe some kind of gentleman's moratorium is in order. No more Reese sucks threads until after game 6 at that point we should have a fairly good take on the direction of he team and whether there are grounds for any new fresh complaints.
RE: Clady was traded, not signed  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13092726 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
he's also a massive injury risk.


True. My bad
+  
huygens20 : 8/29/2016 2:23 pm : link
Can we wait till after our  
giantgiantfan : 8/29/2016 2:24 pm : link
first game? No, no we cannot.
they were both  
Les in TO : 8/29/2016 2:25 pm : link
at fault, as they both had responsibility for talent acquisition. we also had a number of tough breaks with injuries: david Wilson, hakeem nicks, steve smith, Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips that were not the fault of either reese or coughlin. if those guys don't all suffer career limiting injuries, or even if just only 2 out of the 5 of them do, our fortunes probably would have been a lot different.
Reese  
AcidTest : 8/29/2016 2:26 pm : link
didn't do well for a few years. Recently, he's done much better. Move on to a new subject please.
RE: Let things play out for 2 years  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13092721 bigbluewreckingcrew25 said:
Quote:
Things have been playing out for the past 4 years and we have suuucccckkkeeeed.


OK, then don't let it play out. The choice is yours
You, Sir  
dk in TX : 8/29/2016 2:27 pm : link
are a moron.
Part of the problem also  
Fred in Atlanta : 8/29/2016 2:30 pm : link
was that the Giants were always against the cap until this year, so they needed to be almost perfect in the draft. This problem has been around awhile and took a long time to clean up. Remember Ernie record with the draft was improved greatly once Reese changed their scouting. Coughlin problem was that he was around for just to long and it was time for a change.
He's a  
bigbluewreckingcrew25 : 8/29/2016 2:30 pm : link
Pre-Madonna
Did the OP just wake from a coma or something?  
Giantology : 8/29/2016 2:30 pm : link
Move on bro.
RE: Coughlin wasn't the problem  
shabu : 8/29/2016 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13092718 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
But sometimes change is a good thing. Firing Reese would accomplish nothing. How about you let things play out for 2 years and see how McAdoo does?


Its always been Ross, not Reese imo. The bad drafts are what put the Giants in a bad spot and injuries... which could be on TC's program .
TC got screwed  
OdellBeckhamJr : 8/29/2016 2:33 pm : link
How was he supposed to succeed with a roster full of JAG FA's with questionable injury histories and shit drafts.

That said, the decision has been made, time to move on.
RE: RE: Coughlin wasn't the problem  
Victor in CT : 8/29/2016 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13092800 shabu said:
Quote:
In comment 13092718 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


But sometimes change is a good thing. Firing Reese would accomplish nothing. How about you let things play out for 2 years and see how McAdoo does?



Its always been Ross, not Reese imo. The bad drafts are what put the Giants in a bad spot and injuries... which could be on TC's program .


Reese is Ross's boss. He is responsible for his performance, or lack thereof.

I loved TC, but I think it was time for him to go. The Beckham fiasco against CAR sealed it for me. He seemed out of touch.

I thought they should have cleaned house and Reese should have gone too, but he's still here, so let's hope it was the right call.
RE: Clady could have been had in a trade if we wanted.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/29/2016 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13092735 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
The point isn't to nitpick how they could have been acquired. The point is that management was dead set on keeping Flowers at LT at the expense of improving the team.


I can see having an issue with the fact that Flowers was given the job without even a whiff of competition. I get that. I probably would have done that trade.

At the same time, what we all said all offseason long was that it wasn't smart to put money or picks into injury players.
No bid for Clady. He's constantly injured.  
Victor in CT : 8/29/2016 2:41 pm : link
Been there, done that.
It was Reese all along  
Gap92 : 8/29/2016 2:41 pm : link
Must admit,  
Doomster : 8/29/2016 2:43 pm : link
that it was time to turn the Tom Coughlin page.....yes, Reese gave him a nil hand as far as personnel was concerned, but Tom made some head scratching decisions last year too...it remains to be seen if Mac is the answer, though....

You could make the argument that Reese stockpiled cap, until Coughlin was gone.....But Reese has been backing himself into a corner the last few seasons with the decisions he has made....he has gone all or nothing on the the defense this offseason, and left the offense high and dry.....he is hoping that drafted players come through for him on offense, and that this OL will improve on last year's performance.....it's kind of a make or break year for him...if this team does not make the playoffs again this year, for the 7th time in 8 years, with a franchise qb, no less, and after spending all that money in free agency, his job could definitely be on the line....
Reese was awful from 2008-2012.  
The_Boss : 8/29/2016 2:52 pm : link
I think we've finally paid the price for that when we went 7-9 (with the talent of a 3/4 win team), 6-10, and 6-10. His drafts from 2013-2016 have been very fruitful. He's replenished a defense that was so talent deficient last year that it resulted in one of the worst single season defense in league history. Yes we all are upset over the OL. Reese will probably be the first to admit he should have done more there. And I'm sure if we don't make the playoffs, he'll be grilled about the OL by ownership and the media. I'm not the biggest JR fan by any means, but let's see where they are at the bye though before we start shitting on the guy.
In Reese we trust  
NNJ Tom : 8/29/2016 2:54 pm : link
The revamped D (1st team) has looked very good.

The offense is offensive at this point, but lets play for real before getting crazy.
RE: Reese was awful from 2008-2012.  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 2:54 pm : link
In comment 13092849 The_Boss said:
Quote:
I think we've finally paid the price for that when we went 7-9 (with the talent of a 3/4 win team), 6-10, and 6-10. His drafts from 2013-2016 have been very fruitful. He's replenished a defense that was so talent deficient last year that it resulted in one of the worst single season defense in league history. Yes we all are upset over the OL. Reese will probably be the first to admit he should have done more there. And I'm sure if we don't make the playoffs, he'll be grilled about the OL by ownership and the media. I'm not the biggest JR fan by any means, but let's see where they are at the bye though before we start shitting on the guy.


Reese did solid work in 2008-2010. The shitty drafting and injury luck in 2011-2012 set the team back.
Can the Season Start?  
Samiam : 8/29/2016 3:01 pm : link
Before the stupidity begins.
NYG should've moved on and started fresh in 2013  
JonC : 8/29/2016 3:09 pm : link
But, they chose loyalty to TC and the incumbent players after the 2012 season.
RE: NYG should've moved on and started fresh in 2013  
Victor in CT : 8/29/2016 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13092880 JonC said:
Quote:
But, they chose loyalty to TC and the incumbent players after the 2012 season.


Yes. I said the same ting in a thread last week. That stupid attempt to try to make the Met Life SB with the infamous SB clock set them back 2 years
Reese had too much faith in Coughlin  
RetroJint : 8/29/2016 3:26 pm : link
In so doing it hurt the team as well as Coach. The Giants became a very shitty team in 13 & 14. Nobody outside of Reese, the owners and spoiled Giant fans expected them to compete. I've said this before: it was Coughlin who made it possible to avoid the "feeling" that the team was 70s bad. Had they stayed remotely healthy, Tom might have pulled a couple of Allies, 16-game version (8-8), but they did not.

Coughlin could not win under those circumstances. But he did bring sense to the 15 season. The excruciating losses were caused mostly by a series of weird events such as ace QB telling the RB not to score, vaunted rookie S dropping manna from heaven, punter grabbing a face mask- I mean you've got to be shitting me. But it was his responsibility as HC. That along with his age finished him. Were Reese of a similar age, he would be gone, too.

The Irishman from Waterloo, NY is still seething. He leaves. 80 million gets spent in a day. But he understands the business. And Reese has been about 75 percent successful in rebuilding the roster. So what else other than to find out if Mara hired himself a good HC?
Not too many GMs/Owners get rid  
Big Blue '56 : 8/29/2016 3:26 pm : link
of a HC just two years after a SB championship..
I felt all along that if one was to be fired they should both go  
Torrag : 8/29/2016 3:28 pm : link
They worked hand in hand to build a losing roster they should have paid the piper together as well.
Retro  
JonC : 8/29/2016 3:33 pm : link
Agree the team showed positive signs and growth in 2015, a defense that couldn't stop the run or close out games killed them.

No doubt TC could still coach and NYG suffered from a talent deficiency for several seasons, but with the coach pushing 70 and a rebuild needed (albeit avoided), there should've been changes made Jan '13, imo.
here;s a theory that's impossible for some to absorb  
djm : 8/29/2016 3:35 pm : link
No one was the problem. Not Coughlin. Not Reese. The team simply went through a downturn that inevitably impacts most NFL teams, with the Pats being the lone exception. That's not to say that Reese and Brass didn't make mistakes, they did, but with every passing season, thanks to attrition, the salary cap, paying guys that won super bowls and bad luck, the Giants had less margin for error. SOme of the miscalculations and misses finally caught up with them in 2012-2013 and only now are the emerging with a pretty good (on paper) roster.

Shit happens. Fucking deal with it. Assigning blame and asking for guys to be fired simply because "someone has to pay" is just a stupid way to operate. Someone doesn't always have to pay but they need to be held accountable if ownership doesn't like the direction they are headed in. Looks like ownership does in fact like where things are headed. Accept it and move the fuck on and stop letting a preseason game influence too much. It's not the end all be all.
It's pretty clearly a collective failure at multiple levels  
JonC : 8/29/2016 3:39 pm : link
but we knew then, as we know now, NYG doesn't typically fire their GM ...
I'm grateful TC was here,  
therealmf : 8/29/2016 3:40 pm : link
but I was wondering what the reasons were for the Jags to fire him and found this. It does sound familiar. I know TC was not the Giants GM, but he was involved in personnel decisions.

Quote:
More than any single move, however, it was Coughlin's insistence — with Weaver's approval — on keeping the aging, expensive Super Bowl-contending core of his team together for two years too long that landed the Jaguars in their current mess.


http://beta.deseretnews.com/article/956690/Jaguars-fire-Coughlin-after-3rd-losing-year.html?pg=all

RE: NYG should've moved on and started fresh in 2013  
David in LA : 8/29/2016 3:45 pm : link
In comment 13092880 JonC said:
Quote:
But, they chose loyalty to TC and the incumbent players after the 2012 season.


My suspicions were that the 2nd SB afforded TC a longer leash, and lulled our FO into a false sense of security with the roster.
RE: NYG should've moved on and started fresh in 2013  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 3:53 pm : link
In comment 13092880 JonC said:
Quote:
But, they chose loyalty to TC and the incumbent players after the 2012 season.


Jon, I don't disagree with the benefit of hindsight but firing a 2 time SB winning coach 2 years removed from a SB? Never happen. If the team tanked it would second guessed up there with the horrendous decisions of the 70s.
both were the problem  
chris r : 8/29/2016 3:59 pm : link
no excuse for having a shitty OL protecting your aging franchise QB 4-5 straight years. No excuse.
Djm  
Overseer : 8/29/2016 4:00 pm : link
He was a poor NFL Head coach in 2015. Dismal talent on defense to work with, granted, but the week 1 unthinkable loss, week 6 getting owned by Chip Kelly (again) in a crucial "statement game," Jets debacle, Beckham running wild in Carolina. Not signs of a competent head coach, signs that we're building IMV in 2012.

But of course the "blame" is not singular and you're on point to cite multiple factors. Hakeem Nicks, for instance, should be a Giant right now in his physical prime as a player. Ditto David Wilson.
The dismal talent went beyond the defense  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 4:27 pm : link
A lesser coach may not have won 6 games with that roster, which was among the worst in the NFL
Tough to get fired from a villa in Central America  
ghost718 : 8/29/2016 4:36 pm : link
Hangin' out with El Chapo and Sean Penn
They were both the problem  
LeonofKiev : 8/29/2016 4:39 pm : link
Reese is just the last domino to fall.
Of course he's the problem  
Kivorkian : 8/29/2016 4:41 pm : link
But he's a sacred cow around these parts. Has been for some years now. If your new get used to it. He can't be fired.
the problem?  
aquidneck : 8/29/2016 4:48 pm : link
This team will go 11-5 and win a playoff game.

No problem.
RE: RE: NYG should've moved on and started fresh in 2013  
JonC : 8/29/2016 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13092990 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
In comment 13092880 JonC said:


Quote:


But, they chose loyalty to TC and the incumbent players after the 2012 season.



Jon, I don't disagree with the benefit of hindsight but firing a 2 time SB winning coach 2 years removed from a SB? Never happen. If the team tanked it would second guessed up there with the horrendous decisions of the 70s.


This isn't hindsight, I posted it often back at the time it was ongoing. Terps and a few others were also on it.
I wish the season would start already  
RobCarpenter : 8/29/2016 5:20 pm : link
I'm so done with these threads. Let's see what happens during a regular season game.
You must have a crystal ball then  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 5:27 pm : link
.
I don't care for Reese and Ross at all but think they e done  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/29/2016 5:44 pm : link
A much better job the last 3 drafts.

Also it's become very apparent that Reese acts very much in accordance w the owners and Chris Mara. Owneeship likes playing a bit of a roll

TC was a great coach. Borderline HOF at least but at 70 it s a damn hard job and I think it was time to move on. Shit it's a damn hard job at 55-60. 60-80 hours a week.
I don't agree. First of all, Coughlin had a lot of input  
Ira : 8/29/2016 5:46 pm : link
to draft picks and free agent signings. Second, he had a bad year as head coach in '15.
And this draft is looking very good  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/29/2016 5:47 pm : link
Reese will be fine
If Flowers doesn't  
LeonofKiev : 8/29/2016 6:24 pm : link
work out at LT, that will be enough to sink Reese in the long run.
Fingers crossed that doesn't happen.

Is this the kinder gentler  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/29/2016 7:05 pm : link
Leon of Kiev?
RE: Is this the kinder gentler  
LeonofKiev : 8/29/2016 7:34 pm : link
In comment 13093280 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Leon of Kiev?


I get grumpy during the offseason.
I think it's pretty obvious that injuries were the problem...  
Grey Pilgrim : 8/29/2016 7:46 pm : link
They should have kept TC and hired a new strength and conditioning coach (while revamping the weight room).

jmo
The draft is a crap shoot.  
CT Charlie : 8/29/2016 11:46 pm : link
Maybe the reason the Pats seem to be slump-proof is that BB and Ernie Adams understand this and stockpile picks - choosing quantity over everything else.
RE: The dismal talent went beyond the defense  
SGMen : 8/30/2016 1:59 am : link
In comment 13093059 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
A lesser coach may not have won 6 games with that aroster, which was among the worst in the NFL
agreed. Coughlin got hurt by injuries. And our lack of depth.
RE: RE: The dismal talent went beyond the defense  
David in LA : 8/30/2016 2:10 am : link
In comment 13093632 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13093059 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


A lesser coach may not have won 6 games with that aroster, which was among the worst in the NFL

agreed. Coughlin got hurt by injuries. And our lack of depth.


Part of that is on him too. He seemed married to Palmieri's S&C program. A few others have shared my suspicions that he had difficulty adjusting to the new CBA. The changes with the new CBA hurt us on 2 fronts. Injuries and development.
RE: RE: RE: The dismal talent went beyond the defense  
SGMen : 8/30/2016 5:41 am : link
In comment 13093633 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13093632 SGMen said:


Quote:


In comment 13093059 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


A lesser coach may not have won 6 games with that aroster, which was among the worst in the NFL

agreed. Coughlin got hurt by injuries. And our lack of depth.



Part of that is on him too. He seemed married to Palmieri's S&C program. A few others have shared my suspicions that he had difficulty adjusting to the new CBA. The changes with the new CBA hurt us on 2 fronts. Injuries and development.
we certainly are healthier this year so maybe there is something to the new condition programs
RE: You must have a crystal ball then  
JonC : 8/30/2016 8:42 am : link
In comment 13093172 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
.


I look at situations without emotion attached. The shitstain that was the 2013 season wasn't difficult to foresee.
You should be a GM  
AP in Halfmoon : 8/30/2016 8:55 am : link
Firing a 2 time SB winning coach 2 years after winning it all would be ballsy. Your talents are being wasted as a network guy.
But I didn't know until this day that it was Reese all along.  
PatersonPlank : 8/30/2016 8:56 am : link


Hmmmm, let's see here......  
Kivorka : 8/30/2016 3:44 pm : link
No tightend since Shockey and when we finally get Martellus we let him walk. Had a second opportunity and the Pats take him. No surprise there. Linebacker? Haven't had a quality one since Pierce.
RE: Hmmmm, let's see here......  
Klaatu : 8/30/2016 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13094727 Kivorka said:
Quote:
No tightend since Shockey and when we finally get Martellus we let him walk. Had a second opportunity and the Pats take him. No surprise there. Linebacker? Haven't had a quality one since Pierce.


And yet, we went into the playoffs and won a Super Bowl with Kevin Boss, and then won another Super Bowl with Jake Ballard. Oh, and Michael Boley, too.
Boley was absolutely a quality LB  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/30/2016 3:50 pm : link
for his short time here. Disagree there.
RE: RE: Hmmmm, let's see here......  
David in LA : 8/30/2016 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13094738 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13094727 Kivorka said:


Quote:


No tightend since Shockey and when we finally get Martellus we let him walk. Had a second opportunity and the Pats take him. No surprise there. Linebacker? Haven't had a quality one since Pierce.



And yet, we went into the playoffs and won a Super Bowl with Kevin Boss, and then won another Super Bowl with Jake Ballard. Oh, and Michael Boley, too.


August 2016
It was very much both.  
Dave in Hoboken : 8/30/2016 4:11 pm : link
.
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