All during the spring and preseason, most of us have been pessimistic about the performance of the offensive line, the players, and their abilities. Our concerns seem to have been borne out in the preseason games. Management (the front office and coaches) have seen what we have seen. Yet, very little was done during the spring and, other than signing Will Beatty, little change was made during the preseason games and in the last few days. Why does management clearly disagree with us and most of the beat writers? I van only think of three reasons. Management is OK with the players the Giants have. Or, management (Reese in particular) and the coaches are poor evaluators of talent. Or, management just is obstinate and not willing to admit to their mistakes in personnel decisions. Opinions?
Dallas and other teams are beginning to experience already this year what we have in recent years..
His reasoning makes no sense to me. It doesn't matter who you have handling the ball if he doesn't have quality blocking to open the holes for the running game and/or to protect the passer. After the snap, you typically have two guys handling the ball on an offensive play, but you need nine more guys to block for them.
His reasoning might not make much sense to you because it isn't true.
We took Flowers last year when several capable "ball handlers" were there. We took Pugh in the 1st. This idea that the OL has been ignored or that Reese won't take linemen is so overplayed and false to boot.
It isn't rocket science on what happened. The Giants felt they could get by with an aging line and they couldn't. Several OL declined rapidly at the same time which forced a rebuild which has been happening since 2013.
The OL may or may not be good, but the hand wringing that the FO has done nothing is just pure bullshit.
except it's beyond that: Reese & Co. have shown to be very poor judges of talent on the OL in FA and the draft except at the very top of the draft. They are not good at this, it's been a five year slog to where we find ourselves now.
Beatty strikes me a good move but one made out of desperation, perhaps pushed, hard, by BM and Solari. Flowers is a tough not to crack and he has not been developing. As bceagle05 says, Newhouse and JJ are what they are, mediocre journeymen holding down very nice paying jobs.
I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that the Giants' #10 ranking on offense was based predominantly on the brilliance of OBJ and Eli, and we know that more than ever OBJ is a marked man this year. Yes, we have Shepard and, maybe, Cruz, but it still leaves the O vulnerable and one dimensional if the OL is weak, not only in depth, but the starters.
I think it's a failure of judgment over multiple years in how to identify and allocate resources and execute a plan to protect the key asset in his finitely numbered remaining years.
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Reese has said that he will take a ball handler who can make big plays over a blocker every time. And that is exactly what he has done repeatedly. He takes backs and receivers when he should be drafting OLs. It's a major reason for the decline in this team's record over the past three seasons, actually since 2011 when he should have started paying more attention to rebuilding the OL.
His reasoning makes no sense to me. It doesn't matter who you have handling the ball if he doesn't have quality blocking to open the holes for the running game and/or to protect the passer. After the snap, you typically have two guys handling the ball on an offensive play, but you need nine more guys to block for them.
His reasoning might not make much sense to you because it isn't true.
We took Flowers last year when several capable "ball handlers" were there. We took Pugh in the 1st. This idea that the OL has been ignored or that Reese won't take linemen is so overplayed and false to boot.
It isn't rocket science on what happened. The Giants felt they could get by with an aging line and they couldn't. Several OL declined rapidly at the same time which forced a rebuild which has been happening since 2013.
The OL may or may not be good, but the hand wringing that the FO has done nothing is just pure bullshit.
I am just puzzled by the Giants reluctance to move Flowers. They had opportunities to sign LTs, but they would not play RT... and Giants insisted because Flowers was staying put..
Hopefully he looks great next week and it all makes sense but has me wondering what they were thinking.
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Reese has said that he will take a ball handler who can make big plays over a blocker every time. And that is exactly what he has done repeatedly. He takes backs and receivers when he should be drafting OLs. It's a major reason for the decline in this team's record over the past three seasons, actually since 2011 when he should have started paying more attention to rebuilding the OL.
His reasoning makes no sense to me. It doesn't matter who you have handling the ball if he doesn't have quality blocking to open the holes for the running game and/or to protect the passer. After the snap, you typically have two guys handling the ball on an offensive play, but you need nine more guys to block for them.
His reasoning might not make much sense to you because it isn't true.
We took Flowers last year when several capable "ball handlers" were there. We took Pugh in the 1st. This idea that the OL has been ignored or that Reese won't take linemen is so overplayed and false to boot.
It isn't rocket science on what happened. The Giants felt they could get by with an aging line and they couldn't. Several OL declined rapidly at the same time which forced a rebuild which has been happening since 2013.
The OL may or may not be good, but the hand wringing that the FO has done nothing is just pure bullshit.
I am just puzzled by the Giants reluctance to move Flowers. They had opportunities to sign LTs, but they would not play RT... and Giants insisted because Flowers was staying put..
Hopefully he looks great next week and it all makes sense but has me wondering what they were thinking.
Even if it's true, that some OLTs were reluctant to move to the right side, the fact is, they were all well past their prime or coming off severe injuries..Flowers is only 21 and played on one leg last year..I WILL NOT evaluate hom based on limited snaps in preseason, even of he might have looked poorly..Hard to get your groove and work things out when the continuity you rely on is taken away with the limited PT that these glorified scrimmages present
(2) Management probably thought (understandably) the floor for this year's OL was last year's performance. Which on the whole, across all five positions, was OK.
(3) We should take OL rather than skill positions? FO has mistakenly been focused on WRs and RBs? OK, let's give OBJ back. We've taken more OL in 1st round than RBs in the last few years. In fact, aside from D. Wilson, the only RBs I remember them taking (A. Williams, P. Perkins) came in Rds 4 and 5 -- not exactly prizing the position. Meanwhile, we have 2 OTs and a C taken in the top two rounds in the last 4 years or so.
(4) Point to the last SB champ that had an absolutely dominant OL. Point to the last SB champ that had playmakers.
(5) People on this site cream over the Cowboys OL. They've had one winning record in the last 6 years. They were 4-12 last year.
All that said, yes, it would be great to have a better OL (and even a TE who can block). You can't fix everything at once. If the fixes to our historically bad D hold, I fully expect management to pick an OT in the first 2 rounds (again). And unless J. Adams is a revelation this year, they will upgrade the TE position, especially blocking, through the draft or FA.
You also need a better backup plan for Jerry/Newhouse than just Hart. They seemingly lucked into Beatty. But still I don't think you can say mangement did a good job with the OL.
Obviously, they had a lot of other things to take care. But the OL is crucial. Does not do any good to have Eli and Odell and draft a number two WR if the line can't protect adequately.
That said, it is foolish to get up in arms until we see how the OL plays in the regular season.
David in LA : 9:40 pm : link : reply
regardless of any move made. We have not played a real snap, and you're already trying to kick him out the door.
There is a reasonable discussion and argument to make regarding the OL, but in the past several days, I've seen such crap posted like:
- Reese will pick ball handlers over blockers every time
- Reese picks to show off his ego and arrogance
- Reese won't draft OL because it would admit he made mistakes
- Reese is so arrogant he refused to do anything at all on the OL
- Reese wasted money on D while the OL sits unimproved
- Reese won't let Flowers be moved because his ego won't allow it.
All of the above things have been posted. The OL situation is one to worry about, but just making shit up on the reasons behind it doesn't help anyone.
I think Reese and company were hoping the young cheap guys would develop, even if just one, into an OT. B. Jones developed just enough to make the roster as the backup OC and that is a good thing. He'll improve as the year goes along.
I see Will Beatty being used as the blocking TE early on and once he is in shape and knows the updated offense and zone blocking style he'll push for playing time at RT. I can see a lineup of Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Beatty by say the MN game on Monday night. This would not be a bad pass protecting OL.
You play the cards you are dealt.
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In comment 13105141 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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Reese has said that he will take a ball handler who can make big plays over a blocker every time. And that is exactly what he has done repeatedly. He takes backs and receivers when he should be drafting OLs. It's a major reason for the decline in this team's record over the past three seasons, actually since 2011 when he should have started paying more attention to rebuilding the OL.
His reasoning makes no sense to me. It doesn't matter who you have handling the ball if he doesn't have quality blocking to open the holes for the running game and/or to protect the passer. After the snap, you typically have two guys handling the ball on an offensive play, but you need nine more guys to block for them.
His reasoning might not make much sense to you because it isn't true.
We took Flowers last year when several capable "ball handlers" were there. We took Pugh in the 1st. This idea that the OL has been ignored or that Reese won't take linemen is so overplayed and false to boot.
It isn't rocket science on what happened. The Giants felt they could get by with an aging line and they couldn't. Several OL declined rapidly at the same time which forced a rebuild which has been happening since 2013.
The OL may or may not be good, but the hand wringing that the FO has done nothing is just pure bullshit.
I am just puzzled by the Giants reluctance to move Flowers. They had opportunities to sign LTs, but they would not play RT... and Giants insisted because Flowers was staying put..
Hopefully he looks great next week and it all makes sense but has me wondering what they were thinking.
Even if it's true, that some OLTs were reluctant to move to the right side, the fact is, they were all well past their prime or coming off severe injuries..Flowers is only 21 and played on one leg last year..I WILL NOT evaluate hom based on limited snaps in preseason, even of he might have looked poorly..Hard to get your groove and work things out when the continuity you rely on is taken away with the limited PT that these glorified scrimmages present
I don't recall the detail on who was available but, ya lets hope flowers at least locks down LT this year , that would be a win in my book.
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Why do I have a feeling that Red Dog would have bitched about Reese
David in LA : 9:40 pm : link : reply
regardless of any move made. We have not played a real snap, and you're already trying to kick him out the door.
There is a reasonable discussion and argument to make regarding the OL, but in the past several days, I've seen such crap posted like:
- Reese will pick ball handlers over blockers every time
- Reese picks to show off his ego and arrogance
- Reese won't draft OL because it would admit he made mistakes
- Reese is so arrogant he refused to do anything at all on the OL
- Reese wasted money on D while the OL sits unimproved
- Reese won't let Flowers be moved because his ego won't allow it.
All of the above things have been posted. The OL situation is one to worry about, but just making shit up on the reasons behind it doesn't help anyone.
FMiC, you also forgot the passing shots at Reese's intelligence and public speaking ability, and over crediting, and over embellishment of Ernie Accorsi's tenure here. Some posters' criticism of Reese likely comes from a not so wholesome place.
And Eli to get the ball out fast to ODB and Shephard.
Namely Ereck Flowers, as Pat Traina rightly detailed - his technique stinks.
Remember when Wes Richburg called out the O-line (last May) for not working harder (as in attending the LeCharles Bentley camp).
Me thinks he was focusing his statements at Flowers (who has more talent than everybody else combined), but is wasting his and the team's time with his mediocre play.
Namely Ereck Flowers, as Pat Traina rightly detailed - his technique stinks.
Remember when Wes Richburg called out the O-line (last May) for not working harder (as in attending the LeCharles Bentley camp).
Me thinks he was focusing his statements at Flowers (who has more talent than everybody else combined), but is wasting his and the team's time with his mediocre play.
In case you forgot, teams have to field 11 starters on offense - and they'd all like to be paid accordingly. If the right side of the OL has to be last on the totem pole of issues - so be it.
Reese would have gone OL in the draft and passed on Shepard or other WR and all BBI would have done all training camp and preseason was complain about the lack of playmakers.
The beat goes on..let's focus on kicking the shit out of Dallas on Sunday and see what this terrible OL can do eh?
Reese inherited the OL that won them the two rings.
Reese inherited the OL that won them the two rings.
Not true. Reese made the decision to release Luke Petitgout, who was a decent LT. There were fans going nuts about his decision, and he was ok with rolling the dice with Diehl. Tiki retired on that season too. We went into our 2007 season with unproven RB's (Jacobs, Ward, and Droughns), and some guy we moved around the line is now our LT (DD).
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Why do I have a feeling that Red Dog would have bitched about Reese
David in LA : 9:40 pm : link : reply
regardless of any move made. We have not played a real snap, and you're already trying to kick him out the door.
There is a reasonable discussion and argument to make regarding the OL, but in the past several days, I've seen such crap posted like:
- Reese will pick ball handlers over blockers every time
- Reese picks to show off his ego and arrogance
- Reese won't draft OL because it would admit he made mistakes
- Reese is so arrogant he refused to do anything at all on the OL
- Reese wasted money on D while the OL sits unimproved
- Reese won't let Flowers be moved because his ego won't allow it.
All of the above things have been posted. The OL situation is one to worry about, but just making shit up on the reasons behind it doesn't help anyone.
What's not reasonable with any of those comments? :-)
Come on...vents and knucklehead stuff isn't really getting in the way of discussing the Oline if anybody wants. There must be a level headed debate out there amongst the 45 other threads per day on Oline concerns...
The kid has the important requisites to do well at OLT, imv..He's a friggin' warrior, mean and plays to the whistle..Being 21 allows him to hone his craft, learn better technique, etc..
Worst case scenario? He eventually moves to ORT..But for now, you non-experts need to let the kid play and develop and mesh with his OL mates as the season progresses..
First, I think the starting OL is solid enough in pass protection BUT admittedly doesn't have a mauling run blocker on the right side. That is a flaw and can hurt us in games when it is 3rd and a yard and such.
Second, I am a big believer in continuity for an OL and this is year #2 for this bunch. Yes, the zone blocking style that coach Solari brings is "new" but outside of Flowers this is a veteran group and I suspect it will take a few games to get it down technique wise. But they will get it down.
Third, I think Flowers-Pugh-Richburg will be far better than last year's grouping and better than most middle to left groups in the NFL. Flowers needs technique work in pass protection, especially when he faces speed rushers, but he does have the talent to do it. In matter of fact, he does do well at times only to be inconsistent in other times. He'll get better with playing time.
The negatives I have from camp is that it doesn't seem like TE Will Tye took that big step forward with his blocking like I thought. I had figured 2nd year guy out of Stony Brook would make a big leap. He ended last year seemingly on the upside and we ran well late last year. But I want to see him in a real game before I judge and i think we should do the same.
The Giants signed Will Johnson for two reasons as I see it: versatile blocker AND excellent special teamer. He will be missed but you have to move on and hope the remaining TE's can do just enough when called upon for us to succeed.
Overall, this offense returns in tact and it is now year #3 in this system. I personally look for slight improvement across the board. The redzone scoring concerns me as does short yardage but every team has deficiencies. A key guy for us in the redzone could end up being TE Larry Donnell. He is a big body guy who can outmuscle others for the ball.
I am not going to worry about the OL unless injuries hit. We know we have a solid pass protection group and we also know we finished last year strong running the ball. I look for Eli to use the short passing game as our running game at times and this is an area with Cruz, Shepard added where I believe we have a real shot at improving.
I want to see about 3 games before I re-write the above comments.
Suebert was an UDFA that no one heard of
Deihl was a 5th rd pick as a G - no one heard of
McKenzie was a FA and former 3rd rd pick
Snee was the high draft pick in rd 2.
Reese seemed to try and build the same way - sign Baas and Schwartz - when played they were fine - they were too injured.
Baas missed 1 game in 5 years in SF and missed 18 in NY in 3 years and was done at 32.
Snee was effectively done at 30, at a position many play in well into their 30's. Two separate occasions we heard from doctors and Snee himself he was healthy and he was done
Think about 2013 - Baas & Snee both played 3 games and their careers were over.
They drafted Petrus, Moseley, McCants & Brewer in 10-12. Petrus plays some games and seems to show ability and he is gone, Mosley plays a little and shows some ability and he is gone, McCants is still on the Raiders. Brewer was moved all over the OL. He could not play T in the NFL he was OK at G. The staff was supposed to develop the depth. They developed nothing
There is blame to go all around the organization
If you think the guys we have now on the Oline struggle then what the hell would you call what Brewer did for 4 years?
But the little self appointed pir bulls said it was a craven sin to Nov flowers, that Pugh lacked power for ort, and that was the BBI coonsnsus rejecting that. Now, signing Beatty is an admission of the oversight.
It has nothing to do with some posters saying we should have signed a UFA OT, without acknowledging that the few that were available all had age or injury concerns (with the possible exception of Mitchell Schwartz).
It has nothing to do with some posters refusing to accept that the Giants aren't giving up on Flowers at LT after one season where he struggled, or that signing Will Beatty had more to do with Bobby Hart's struggles than Ereck Flowers'.
It has nothing to do with some posters refusing to accept that the Giants prefer that Justin Pugh remain at LG, where they believe he can excel, rather than moving him to LT or RT, where his physical traits are less than ideal.
No, it's all about the pit bulls
With a #10 defense we are a championship contender.
Do not read anything into preseason.
Who has been struggling badly at RT? Not sure how that helps us.
The build is in progress and we knew it would likely go beyond the 2016 cycle.
They pretty clearly need to improve their scouting and decision process for the OL, not unlike the need to improve the LB process.
A ton of LTs? Seriously?
Monroe retired, Penn blew us off, we weren't going to trade for Clady, and oft-injured Okung preferred to sign with the world champions. Have I left anyone out?
As for Conklin - and remember, prior to the draft I started a thread titled, "Give me Jack Conklin or give me death" - there's no indication that he would have been the Giants' pick if he was still on the board. And if the Giants were hell-bent on drafting another O-Lineman in the 1st Round they could have had Taylor Decker. Clearly they preferred Apple to Decker, and throughout the rest of the draft they passed on several decent O-Line prospects in favor of other players at different positions, and honestly, I can't fault them for that.
And. Even if we do win, that would not preclude better ways.
As for details, who has time for that? Better you add those, if you have time, as opposed to wasting yours on status quo.
And. Even if we do win, that would not preclude better ways.
As for details, who has time for that? Better you add those, if you have time, as opposed to wasting yours on status quo.
Yeah, who needs details? It's not like they're important or anything. It's so much better to wax philosophically about what the Giants should do without getting caught up in those pesky details.
And you have the gall to throw "rhetoric" in my face? What have you ever proposed that isn't simply rhetoric? Puh-leeze. You don't understand the free agent market, so you dismiss it out of hand. That's brilliant. You don't understand how a team is put together, so you dismiss that out of hand, too. Even more brilliance.
Climb down from your ivory tower and find your place in the real world.
We addressed the D with lots of talented and mostly YOUNG players. No stopgaps..They will be with us for at least Eli's remaining years imv..
We can move the ball. If it's mostly through the air (a la Brady) then so be it..Our D is what will or should get us to the Tourney along with our franchise QB and his weapons, imv
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Was thinking about your point, flowers being 21. Ya, I would say let the kid play.. I get now why you keep flowers there @ LT. Given the recent injury issues, it's even more "go with youth" and it should be IMO.
The kid has the important requisites to do well at OLT, imv..He's a friggin' warrior, mean and plays to the whistle..Being 21 allows him to hone his craft, learn better technique, etc..
Worst case scenario? He eventually moves to ORT..But for now, you non-experts need to let the kid play and develop and mesh with his OL mates as the season progresses..
Yep, i think flowers should have another year at LT before he is moved. Have to give him another year, new OL coach etc. Its the right call, thanks for getting me there ;)
Otherwise not sure who your comments are directed to or what the basis is.
Management/FO totally disregarded the lack of a running game that could have won at least 2 or 3 games not relying on the D.
Just because they ended up with a #8 offensive ranking doesn't mean you don't try to improve. Not getting ANY lineman or a blocking TE of some sort is really going to bite them in the ass and may be the difference in making the playoffs!
Who were the players that they didn't sign because they didn't want to move Flowers to RT?
What flucking problems? The season hasn't started yet!
Another way these conversations get hung up is on the fallacious logic that if player A is a mediocre guard that he could never be a better tackle or that tackles can automatically play guard. Each player is different.
You never know Pugh's upside at left until you try.