Seems like the Steelers seem to make a better effort to get Brown the ball. Or is Brown just better at getting open? Many people seem to think that Beckham is more talented than him, but it seems like Brown is at the very least more consistently featured in the offense. I don't think OBJ did poorly yesterday considering how long the Giants had the ball but still seems like he gets fewer opportunities. Is that on OBJ or Eli/McAdoo?
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...with the possible exception that he has more receiving yards in his first two years than any other receiver in the history of the NFL.
I guess you're right. I think I get a bit antsy when OBJ doesn't get 100 yards and no TDs, which tells you everything you need to know about the bar he set. And I really think that he has the talent to be considered the best WR in the league.
TOP
NYG 23:17
DAL 36:43
I think Beckham is there talent wise, but Brown is crazy refined in every tiny movement he has.
The name of the game is WIN. Giants are 1-0
Would you people ever stop complaining?
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I wonder if any of those posters are still around and if they would admit to being idiots.
What about the shit people said about JPP last year?
I think they were idiots, as well. I had my doubts JPP would be back but some people took the incident beyond personally.
Apples to oranges comparison by the way. Beckham was injured and being held out...JPP was, of course, self inflicted.
You start seeing Crush and Shep making plays, and you'll see a lot of stuff open up over the top for OBJ.
Bottom line I'd rather he get quality not quantity touches.
But the situations are vastly different. I think you can interchange the players and have just about the same success if they swapped teams. IMO every kid out their should model their games after these two, their precision is mind blowing.
That obviously helps Brown vs Beckham but it's only one factor among several.
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SethFromAstoria : 3:12 am : link : reply
this isn't true...at all.
Doesn't that link prove exactly what Shock said? That OBJ's first two seasons dominate Brown's.
Thank you Filthy. I'm not sure what Seths point is, my point was that OBJ has had much more success early on in his career than Brown did. Assuming OBJ continues to progress, the sky is the limit. I wouldn't trade OBJ for Brown or any other WR in football.
But Brown is the best WR in the game right now. He's five years older than Odell.
Absurd to think Brown was a sixth round pick. Check out this scouting report on him (see link):
Review of Brown - ( New Window )
2. Like the Giants do, the Steelers look for ways to move AB around, create mismatches, find ways to get AB the ball. They just do it a lot more than the Giants do. Giants look to spread the ball around more. I think the Steelers just have more plays to "feature" AB.
3. After just these 2 games to review on the season I also believe the Cowboys worked a little harder to control OBJ than the Skins did to control AB. As has been discussed in many threads here already, the Skins stuck to their zone keeping their DBs on one side. AB had plenty of single coverage on a rookie DB. Cowboys had OBJ doubled, their best DB, or both on OBJ.
On to more talented. I think OBJ "could" very well have a slight bit more talent than AB. However it's really too close to call for sure. For now, AB has more experience and a higher maturity level. My fear is OBJ will want to take on Norman every chance he gets. AB was just fine (maybe even preferred) to stay away from Norman. Not because he can't beat Norman but because he can be that much more dangerous away from him. Play to win the game and not the matchup.
This offense is still a work in progress despite having very good weapons. New HC new OC while the regime in Pitt has been pretty consistent the past few years.
You mean like in the preseason, where Eli is generally just "running the play" and not adjusting to get us into positions to actually exploit alignments and coverages the defense puts out? We were pretty effective there...
This is true, but in two minute/hurry-up situations, players are aware of a number of possible calls (different protections, routes, run plays, etc.) and Eli is making a call at the line based on what he sees. In huddles during stoppages of play, there are usually a few calls/combinations made.
Part of the difficulty in running that offense is the variability, and importance of recognizing a defense and getting a team into the right play based on the look. The Giants' effectiveness in that phase of the game is a testament to Eli's intellect as a quarterback... precisely the opposite of "killing us with adjustments"; to the contrary, those adjustments are among the reasons it works.
in the 1st game . Getting a win in this game is Huge .
Now they have some game film to work off of not only
ours but the Saint's as well .
We should become more consistent each week the young and
new players got there feet wet .
The few times I really got riled was a slow developing
run play trying to get Jennings to the outside I just
don't feel that it's not so much the play but the guy
carrying the ball . Jennings does not have great speed
or quick moves to be effective running wide .
We have a chance to put some distance in the standings early . Having the Saints at home is a blessing sure
Breese is capable of burning us but moreso in the dome .
Redskins and the Boys despise each other and if we can
come on on top this week . I think we can make a statement against the Skins .
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SethFromAstoria : 3:12 am : link : reply
this isn't true...at all.
Doesn't that link prove exactly what Shock said? That OBJ's first two seasons dominate Brown's.
my fault. Completely misread the point. I thought he was saying it the other way around. Apologies.
1. They scheme for him better especially on short stuff, Chris Simms had a great breakdown of Odell vs. Brown on a Yahoo/NFL segment last year that showed how much more diverse Brown's routes were
2. Ben buys more time and takes longer to get rid of the ball than Eli, giving Antonio more broken/extended plays to work with
3. Antonio is more experienced and thus, knows more tricks of the WR trade when it comes to route running and finding soft spots
4. He has the best start-stop of any top WR around, better than Odell. He has more of a Punt Returner skillset than Odell and while Odell is more explosive, Brown is shiftier
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SethFromAstoria : 3:12 am : link : reply
this isn't true...at all.
Doesn't that link prove exactly what Shock said? That OBJ's first two seasons dominate Brown's.
Thank you Filthy. I'm not sure what Seths point is, my point was that OBJ has had much more success early on in his career than Brown did. Assuming OBJ continues to progress, the sky is the limit. I wouldn't trade OBJ for Brown or any other WR in football.
Yeah its just that I read it as you saying the opposite. Its funny because I was watching Randy Moss talk about how he's the best (not the guy who just ended his rookie records) and I wanted to check a comparison. And yeah Beckham has been better.
I don't think anyone has suggested "let's trade Brown for Beckham" or vice versa.
or Brown had a better start to his career.
or one team has a better QB
or anything else.
besides right now, in their respective offenses on their respective teams (which is the only factual place to put them) Brown is a better receiver.
It's hard to argue against until you start bringing in non-controllable situational variables or auxiliary opinions.
And to be clear it's an opinion, but like I said in the beginning, outside of NY not many people take Beckham over Brown in a game being played tonight with their respective teams in place.
and it's not a criticism of Beckham.
When their careers are over, Beckham could very well surpass Brown, if someone asked who had the best first two seasons of a career you can obviously say Beckham, or if they asked something different than you can make a case for Beckham, but who is better right now isn't a hard choice for most people.
and it doesn't bother me at all - to the OP's question.
TD's. Is there another one? In either case TD's is certainly a good one.
Meanwhile, until this season, what other offensive weapon did Giants' opponents have to worry about besides Odell?
Meanwhile, until this season, what other offensive weapon did Giants' opponents have to worry about besides Odell?
In football those types of arguments don't really work for some reason.
What other weapons did the Texans have besides DeAndre Hopkins? Arian Foster went out week 4 and not only did they have no other weapons to speak of they had garbage QB's. 4 different ones.
Yet Hopkins put up better stats than Beckham who had a pro-bowl QB, a decent RB, and a guy in Rueben Randle who would have been the 2nd best WR in HOU too.
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you could easily argue Beckham has been better on a per game basis the past 2 years.
TD's. Is there another one? In either case TD's is certainly a good one.
Odell has a better QB Rating on balls thrown to his direction.
QB Rating, TDs, INTs, and YDS are the main ways that QBs get rated these days... Odell has had Brown beat in 3/4 of those categories since he entered the league
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In comment 13120562 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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you could easily argue Beckham has been better on a per game basis the past 2 years.
TD's. Is there another one? In either case TD's is certainly a good one.
Odell has a better QB Rating on balls thrown to his direction.
QB Rating, TDs, INTs, and YDS are the main ways that QBs get rated these days... Odell has had Brown beat in 3/4 of those categories since he entered the league
kind of a stretch giving credit to/blaming a WR for primarily QB stats like INTs and QB Rating, but if that makes you feel better about Beckham, go ahead and use that.
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In comment 13120580 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 13120562 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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you could easily argue Beckham has been better on a per game basis the past 2 years.
TD's. Is there another one? In either case TD's is certainly a good one.
Odell has a better QB Rating on balls thrown to his direction.
QB Rating, TDs, INTs, and YDS are the main ways that QBs get rated these days... Odell has had Brown beat in 3/4 of those categories since he entered the league
kind of a stretch giving credit to/blaming a WR for primarily QB stats like INTs and QB Rating, but if that makes you feel better about Beckham, go ahead and use that.
I don't get the passive aggressive tone with that post. This isn't hard.
Big Ben has thrown less picks and has had a better QB rating than Eli the past 2 years. The Steelers have had a more reliable running game and secondary cast of weapons than the Giants in the same span.
Despite that, Odell has posted a higher QB rating/moreTDs/lessINTs/higherYPC on balls thrown in his direction than Brown.
It's a simple argument.
but saying Eli has less picks when throwing at Beckham than ben does when throwing to Brown, and somehow attributing that to the receiver seems like mental gymnastics.
isn't that on the QB? Maybe Eli throws better passes when he throws to Beckham and Ben just figures ah-f-it Brown is probably open or he'll get it if I throw it near him.
I don't see how you can attribute interceptions or well thrown balls to the receiver. in most cases. Of course there's the occasional "the catch" from Beckham that impacts Eli's QBR, but it's rare IMO.
You're taking a stat about the QB and giving the WR credit for it when there is no evidence they can even influence it.
Unless you're talking drops (where despite many more targets in 2015, Brown had less drops than Beckham) the rest is mostly on the QB IMO.
and there is a problem ????
really ???
More importantly brown puts up better stats because of his significant target advantage and his higher completion pct(due to the route variety Pitt runs for him).........making him 'appear' better....
People asserting Briwn is better reading the high level stats aren't diving into the numbers.....
More importantly brown puts up better stats because of his significant target advantage and his higher completion pct(due to the route variety Pitt runs for him).........making him 'appear' better....
People asserting Briwn is better reading the high level stats aren't diving into the numbers.....
If you say so.
I'm pretty sure that was someone else.
Brown got 12.1 targets to Odell's 10.6 last year.
He caught 70pct of targets vs 60 for Odell/a lot to do with the route trees mentioned earlier.
He scored less tds per reception that Odell
He has far less yac per reception than Odell.
It's freely available. Not going to repost this. Deep analytics dives usually can tell a more complete story.
AB: 187 Tgts -- 132 Rec -- 1774 Yds -- 12 TD -- 5 INT
OB: 169 Tgts -- 109 Rec -- 1616 Yds -- 14 TD -- 3 INT
AB: 70.9% Comp -- 13.4 YPC -- 9.50 Yd/Tgt -- 11.7 Tgt/G -- 110.5 QBR
OB: 64.5% Comp -- 14.8 YPC -- 9.55 Yd/Tgt -- 10.6 Tgt/G -- 116.8 QBR
Brown is on an absolutely epic stretch, one of the best ever for a WR. But on a per-game basis, Odell has been right there with him since he entered the league.
Brown gets a target more per game and has averaged 111 YPG to Odell's 101 YPG. But that 10 YPG difference is nullified when you take into account the fact that Pitt has passed more as a team over this span. Brown has accounted for 37.6% of his team's passing yards while Odell has accounted for 37.1% of his team's yards.
I disagree with your point about INTs not being related to WRs. If we're going to give WRs credit for TDs thrown to them, we can't discredit then for INTs thrown to their direction?
Statistically you could still give the edge to Brown. But on a per game basis the start of Odell's career absolutely rivals what Brown has done over the same time.
Plus, beyond the stats, Odell's had less help around him than Brown over the same span. I can't wait to see what he does this year with the best WR corps he's been apart of.
AB: 187 Tgts -- 132 Rec -- 1774 Yds -- 12 TD -- 5 INT
OB: 169 Tgts -- 109 Rec -- 1616 Yds -- 14 TD -- 3 INT
AB: 70.9% Comp -- 13.4 YPC -- 9.50 Yd/Tgt -- 11.7 Tgt/G -- 110.5 QBR
OB: 64.5% Comp -- 14.8 YPC -- 9.55 Yd/Tgt -- 10.6 Tgt/G -- 116.8 QBR
Brown is on an absolutely epic stretch, one of the best ever for a WR. But on a per-game basis, Odell has been right there with him since he entered the league.
Brown gets a target more per game and has averaged 111 YPG to Odell's 101 YPG. But that 10 YPG difference is nullified when you take into account the fact that Pitt has passed more as a team over this span. Brown has accounted for 37.6% of his team's passing yards while Odell has accounted for 37.1% of his team's yards.
I disagree with your point about INTs not being related to WRs. If we're going to give WRs credit for TDs thrown to them, we can't discredit then for INTs thrown to their direction?
Statistically you could still give the edge to Brown. But on a per game basis the start of Odell's career absolutely rivals what Brown has done over the same time.
Plus, beyond the stats, Odell's had less help around him than Brown over the same span. I can't wait to see what he does this year with the best WR corps he's been apart of.
You give a WR credit for the TD because he has to catch ball. On an interception giving the WR blame might make sense might not, on a case by case basis is the only way to do it. Blanket credit is silly.
Eli (and Ben) are gunslingers and make passes many QB's won't make. Sometimes they are rewarded by acrobatic and athletic (or sometimes just pedestrian) WR play to make a connection.
When those ill-advised (or sometimes just poor) passes are picked off I don't see any sane way you blame the WR (blanketly).
It's like blaming an OL if a RB fumbles just because you gave them credit for a rushing TD.
I hate these debates, it's not a black and white answer and people get offended when you don't pick their guy.
If Beckham's targets equalled Browns who is to say Beckham's stats don't settle downward.
Also the only option vs other options argument can work both ways. It's not a given that because the Giants have more options Beckham will have a better year, the complete opposite could be true. Same with Brown. It's not like Jesse James and Eli Rogers are household names. Or Sammie Coates. That's who was on the field as pass catchers with Brown on Monday.
In AB's first 3 seasons he had 151 catches, 7 TDs and less then 2,000 yards.
OBJ is still learning and improving.
In the 4 games last season that Ben missed:
Brown: 31 tgts, 17 rec, 235 yds, 0 TDs, 8.8 y/r
Per game ave: 4 rec, 59 yds
In the 9 games after Ben's return, Brown averaged 10 rec, 129 yds, and 1 TD
His touchdowns per game can only go up as would his overall yardage.
The point, is an assertion brown is 'just better' is really just based on total yardage and total catches. But no other meaningful stat.
Not to be annoying, but the original premise is whether the way Beckham is used is frustrating. As good as he has been, he is still not realizing his overall potential and if NYG used him like a Jones or a brown his numbers can become truly 'Wilt Chamberlain' like.....
That is the really scary part. There is still a significant upside Beckham can realize.