Why Shepard has a chance to be the next great Giant WR

Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category?

Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

couldn't help myself.

I hope he fulfills his potential

I think its amazing that he jumps 2.5 inch higher then Odell!

"The innate ability is on display every day on the Giants practice field and in games. His 41-inch vertical leap (better than Beckham's) was evident when he jumped over the back of Cowboys cornerback Anthony Brown for his first career touchdown reception on Sunday."

over the years, that just didn't pan out....

A guy like Toomer(who was drafted in the second round), was really a #2 receiver that was used as a #1.....

After Toomer, year after year we drafted wr's and just couldn't hit on them...we drafted guys that were average at best, or had one, maybe two good, not outstanding, years....

There was Hilliard, Jurevicius, Alford, Dixon, Carter, Jones, Tim Carter, Tyree, Ponder, Taylor, Moss, etc.

And then in 2007, we finally started to draft wr's....we drafted guys like Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Randle, and then 11 other teams left us OBj to draft....there were a few clunkers like Barden and Jernigan....

So the last 10 years, we finally hit on some quality receivers....the only negative side was, they didn't last long.....

Shepard showed on that TD catch, that he is a Playah....he also showed on the int, that he is a rookie, that is on a learning curve.....

The potential is there, but like a lot of receivers we drafted, his potential for a long career, comes with a caveat.....he has had a few concussions.....

He has the potential, to form the best 1-2 punch at WR, the Giants, have ever had.....and if he is a fast learner, and he can play smart, and avoid serious blows to the head, you have to drool at the thought of Eli throwing to him and OBj, over the next few seasons.....a chance at being great? ABSOLUTELY...

I put Toomer in the category of great receiver. He was amazing for the Giants for many years.

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

Funny. I thought the same exact thing.

In comment 13123135 Doomster said:

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The potential is there, but like a lot of receivers we drafted, his potential for a long career, comes with a caveat.....he has had a few concussions.....

I'm still trying find evidence to support that he's any more concussion-prone than the typical wideout. But this canard keeps popping up, usually from the same poster.

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

I think it's fair to include all those guys. Nobody had the longevity that Toomer did, but Burress and Nicks played at a very high level until injuries cut them down. All three were instrumental to championships. Cruz is still a TBD, but he'd at least belong in the same category as Nicks if it doesn't trend upward from here.

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

Granted, when your top five receiving leaders consists of 3 RB's, its a sad list. But we've had great wideouts. Just haven't gotten any longevity out of them, unfortunately - aside from Toomer.

agree on Toomer. He came up as a burner and by the time he got his game together the great speed seemed gone and he was a very reliable possession type. But not great.
Nicks and Cruz don't - as of this writing - have the body of work.
Burris....yes, but much overshadowed by some of his peers. I will remember him for blocking for Tiki as much as anything.
Del Shofner really earned his stripes elsewhere and only had a few years here.
Rote was possession only, loved the guy and that team but no, not great.
Homer Jones....yes. OBJ...yes. Cruz and Shepard...potentials.

"The innate ability is on display every day on the Giants practice field and in games. His 41-inch vertical leap (better than Beckham's) was evident when he jumped over the back of Cowboys cornerback Anthony Brown for his first career touchdown reception on Sunday."

Eli really made that a tougher catch than it should have been. Shep ran a wheel route which gave him very good separation. If Eli throws that to the back pylon it's uncontested.

Also I thought Shep's catch was more about his hands, and focus vs his vertical jump. The defender was in a good position.

and try to find somebody good. Jerry, asleep at the wheel once again.

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Burris....yes, but much overshadowed by some of his peers. I will remember him for blocking for Tiki as much as anything.

Game winning catch in SB42
Or dominating Al Harris & the Packers the game before that the week before
Or the 2006 comeback win in Philly

He was a classic mismatch who many DBs simply could not handle. And I have little doubt the Giants would have competed for a ring in 2008 if he wasn't a moron. That was the only great Giants team of the Eli Manning era.

--

As for Shepard...all the usual caveats about injuries apply. But another X-factor for him (and Beckham) is who will be throwing to them, if they're still Giants, after Manning?

He and Eli had one of the most lethal connections in the league, statistically, for a few seasons.

RE: We have drafted a lot of WR's
BMac : 9:34 am : link : reply
In comment 13123135 Doomster said:
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The potential is there, but like a lot of receivers we drafted, his potential for a long career, comes with a caveat.....he has had a few concussions.....


I'm still trying find evidence to support that he's any more concussion-prone than the typical wideout. But this canard keeps popping up, usually from the same poster.


I think this is the first time I have ever posted this.....others have brought this up long before me.....but the fact is, he has had a few concussions in the past....Google is your friend.....

I only brought it up, because we certainly have been unlucky, with our WR's getting injured...in this case, we knew he had a history before being drafted......it doesn't mean he will have this problem, and like I said, hopefully he won't.....

are you Brown Hornet? Or different poster?

Also, your handle makes me shudder...

can see the Steve Smith (Panthers/Ravens) comparisons out of OU. that TD catch was vintage Smith

In comment 13123179 jcn56 said:

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In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said: Quote: Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player. I think it's fair to include all those guys. Nobody had the longevity that Toomer did, but Burress and Nicks played at a very high level until injuries cut shot them down. All three were instrumental to championships. Cruz is still a TBD, but he'd at least belong in the same category as Nicks if it doesn't trend upward from here.

Fixed

was a very, very good NFL receiver and would have had an amazingly productive career had he stayed healthy. When he would cut the defender would go flying. He was going to be a 1000 catch guy.

I'm talking about the "other" Steve Smith of the Panthers/Ravens. that's the guy Shepard reminds me of

In comment 13123244 Doomster said:

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RE: We have drafted a lot of WR's BMac : 9:34 am : link : reply In comment 13123135 Doomster said: Quote: The potential is there, but like a lot of receivers we drafted, his potential for a long career, comes with a caveat.....he has had a few concussions..... I'm still trying find evidence to support that he's any more concussion-prone than the typical wideout. But this canard keeps popping up, usually from the same poster. I think this is the first time I have ever posted this.....others have brought this up long before me.....but the fact is, he has had a few concussions in the past....Google is your friend..... I only brought it up, because we certainly have been unlucky, with our WR's getting injured...in this case, we knew he had a history before being drafted......it doesn't mean he will have this problem, and like I said, hopefully he won't.....

I understand your reasoning, and don't ever assume that I haven't, as I clearly indicated, searched for info.

Your contention that he's an injury risk because of concussions (which can happen to anyone at any time, history or not) needs to be backed up with valid comparisons to other wideouts with a similar history and how they fared. Anything else is just chewing your cud and being your usual pollyana-ish self.

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

Sinorice, Barden, JJ, Lewis, Thompson, Parker, not exactly murderers row is it. Makes Friede and Earnest Gray look like Lynn Swann.

In comment 13123192 crick n NC said:

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"The innate ability is on display every day on the Giants practice field and in games. His 41-inch vertical leap (better than Beckham's) was evident when he jumped over the back of Cowboys cornerback Anthony Brown for his first career touchdown reception on Sunday." Eli really made that a tougher catch than it should have been. Shep ran a wheel route which gave him very good separation. If Eli throws that to the back pylon it's uncontested. Also I thought Shep's catch was more about his hands, and focus vs his vertical jump. The defender was in a good position.

If Eli throws to the back pylon it may go out of bounds too...$hit happens

drafted a lot of busts over the last 10 or more years.

But it's unfair to allege they haven't drafted (or acquired) some very good ones in that time period.

the names have already been thrown out there.

If you want to get hung up on the terminology of 'great', have at it, but you don't have to go back to Grandpa's Giants to find some very good WR's.

the problem has been that the Giants have had trouble getting 2 good WR and keeping them healthy at the same time.

the S had the angle to the corner pylon. as Shepard said in the postgame interview, Eli put the ball in the only possible place to convert the play

In comment 13123189 grizz299 said:

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agree on Toomer. He came up as a burner and by the time he got his game together the great speed seemed gone and he was a very reliable possession type. But not great. Nicks and Cruz don't - as of this writing - have the body of work. Burris....yes, but much overshadowed by some of his peers. I will remember him for blocking for Tiki as much as anything. Del Shofner really earned his stripes elsewhere and only had a few years here. Rote was possession only, loved the guy and that team but no, not great. Homer Jones....yes. OBJ...yes. Cruz and Shepard...potentials.

It's difficult to compare players from different eras. Rote, for his time, was a great receiver. Same for Gifford. There were not many explosive, speed receivers back then. Colts Raymond Berry was a great receiver of that era but not a burner. Shofner was a dominant receiver in his years here, fast, fluid, great hands. I loved Homer but his body of work just not big enough to be considered great. If you want to extend the search to tight ends, I'd put Bavaro in the "great" category.

his COD and quick twitch abilities are startling. We've got two tremendously instinctive, explosive, hungry, gifted WRs. Of course, SS still has much to prove when live bullets are flying.

In comment 13123377 fkap said:

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If you want to get hung up on the terminology of 'great', have at it, but you don't have to go back to Grandpa's Giants to find some very good WR's. the problem has been that the Giants have had trouble getting 2 good WR and keeping them healthy at the same time.

Well, you can go back to the old Giants but you are not going to find too many extremely talented WRs. There were plenty of solid contributors but I really cannot remember many or any who were stars in the league. Part of that due to our run first mentality/plan back then I suppose.

I also think that we may not have utilized the skills/talent to its fullest in the past. We all speak highly of Parcells but I wonder how often OBJ would have seen the ball if he was on our team in the 80s.

Problem is that they had little overlap. When they do overlap, Eli makes magic (see 2011).

But in the last ten years, post Plax signing, the Giants have had:

Plax
Toomer
Nicks
Cruz
Manningham
OBJ
Steve Smith
Shepard

All of those guys, except maybe Mannigham (and obviously Shepard) performed at a Pro Bowl level at some point (whether they made the pro bowl or not).

But when we're talking "next great Giant WR", considering the list of the players above, I'd be happy if Shepard can maintain a level equivalent to the peak form of any of the players above for an extended amount of time with some consistency.

In comment 13123135 Doomster said:

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over the years, that just didn't pan out.... A guy like Toomer(who was drafted in the second round), was really a #2 receiver that was used as a #1..... After Toomer, year after year we drafted wr's and just couldn't hit on them...we drafted guys that were average at best, or had one, maybe two good, not outstanding, years.... There was Hilliard, Jurevicius, Alford, Dixon, Carter, Jones, Tim Carter, Tyree, Ponder, Taylor, Moss, etc. And then in 2007, we finally started to draft wr's....we drafted guys like Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Randle, and then 11 other teams left us OBj to draft....there were a few clunkers like Barden and Jernigan.... So the last 10 years, we finally hit on some quality receivers....the only negative side was, they didn't last long..... Shepard showed on that TD catch, that he is a Playah....he also showed on the int, that he is a rookie, that is on a learning curve..... The potential is there, but like a lot of receivers we drafted, his potential for a long career, comes with a caveat.....he has had a few concussions..... He has the potential, to form the best 1-2 punch at WR, the Giants, have ever had.....and if he is a fast learner, and he can play smart, and avoid serious blows to the head, you have to drool at the thought of Eli throwing to him and OBj, over the next few seasons.....a chance at being great? ABSOLUTELY...

Toomer circa 02 was a bonafide #1 WR, no questions asked.

But he adapted to his personnel. In 1984, when the Giants had a really weak running game, he ran a pass-heavy offense and Simms threw for 4000 yards back when it was a really rare thing. At the time, only five QBs had ever thrown for 4000 yards - Joe Namath, Dan Fouts, Brian Sipe, Lynn Dickey, and Bill Kenney. Marino and Neil Lomax would also eclipse 4000 yards that season.

Later on, when Parcells had Bledsoe on the Patriots, they ranked 5, 1, 1, and 2 in the NFL in passing attempts.

Dak Prescott...

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category? Except for those nominees, I don't think the Giants had any great receivers in the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s. You have to go back to Homer Jones, Del Shofner, and Kyle Rote. I wouldn't even include Gifford because he strength was as a multi-dimensional player.

I'd put Steve Smith in there too. I know the career was short lived but he contributed to a SB and holds the all-time receptions record in a season for a Giants receiver. Had he not been derailed by injury he would likely still be contributing in this league.

In comment 13123301 Overseer said:

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are you Brown Hornet? Or different poster? Also, your handle makes me shudder...

Nope, I'm not Brown Hornet.

And don't worry, as long as you don't step on me I won't bite you. =)

In comment 13123437 Jimmy Googs said:

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Dak Prescott...

True, but then again who really is?

Giants wanted him to be a two but Hilliard, the guy they wanted to be the 1 was devastated by that spinal fracture.

Steve Smith was a good possession receiver, very good, but his stats in 09 were inflated because Nicks and Manningham were very raw and did not know the playbook. Plus the departure of Toomer and Plax.

Giants actually lucked out he left, they got much more explosion on the field with Manningham nicks and Cruz. Conceivable smith would be a wr4 on the 2011 team--more likely Cruz never develops and a great shame.

In comment 13123536 PatersonPlank said:

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In comment 13123437 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: Dak Prescott... True, but then again who really is?

They're already calling him the "Dak Knight" in Dallas.

He was a top 20 wr in his era but he definitely accumulated stats because of the lack of development of the prospects listed earlier--in particular Dixon and jurevicius and to a lesser degree Hilliard.

In comment 13123611 hassan said:

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Giants wanted him to be a two but Hilliard, the guy they wanted to be the 1 was devastated by that spinal fracture. Steve Smith was a good possession receiver, very good, but his stats in 09 were inflated because Nicks and Manningham were very raw and did not know the playbook. Plus the departure of Toomer and Plax. Giants actually lucked out he left, they got much more explosion on the field with Manningham nicks and Cruz. Conceivable smith would be a wr4 on the 2011 team--more likely Cruz never develops and a great shame.

What does mediocre 1 mean? An average best receiver on a team so about the 16th best WR in the league? That seems about right. He did have 5 straight 1000 yard seasons.

It's a serious question. I was a little kid in the sixties-mid seventies, and my first memories of the Giants are with my dad at home and watching the games on TV. Homer Jones is the name I remember most from the Giants offense back then, and Spider Lockhart on defense. I've always wondered (though never bothered to check) how Homer Jones might measure up to the guys on that list of best Giants WRs. Anyone have an opinion on that?

In comment 13123629 hassan said:

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He was a top 20 wr in his era but he definitely accumulated stats because of the lack of development of the prospects listed earlier--in particular Dixon and jurevicius and to a lesser degree Hilliard.

How about he was just too good to keep down and improved every year? You sound like one of those Cowboys apologists who always claim that they didn't get beat, they gave they game away. Toomer was an excellent player and improved every year.

In comment 13123093 Ivan15 said:

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Would you put Toomer, Burress, Nicks, Cruz in the GREAT category?

Yes. At one time or another, all those receivers were in the top 10. They were very good receivers. If Shepard makes it into that group I will be dancing in the streets.

In comment 13123370 djstat said:

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In comment 13123192 crick n NC said: Quote: "The innate ability is on display every day on the Giants practice field and in games. His 41-inch vertical leap (better than Beckham's) was evident when he jumped over the back of Cowboys cornerback Anthony Brown for his first career touchdown reception on Sunday." Eli really made that a tougher catch than it should have been. Shep ran a wheel route which gave him very good separation. If Eli throws that to the back pylon it's uncontested. Also I thought Shep's catch was more about his hands, and focus vs his vertical jump. The defender was in a good position. If Eli throws to the back pylon it may go out of bounds too...$hit happens

You're right, if Eli throws passes they could be intercepted

That's exactly right. A middle of the pack #1. NY Giants tried multiple times to make him a two.

But he did improve and at his peak was probably a top10 receiver in 2002.

I'm essentially mostly agreeing with you so not sure what your big objection is.......but peak Toomer was a very good player who benefitted from a lack of serious competition for balls. Peak Toomer was not peak Burress Cruz or Nicks in my opinion.

During his production from 99-03, we all here discuss the need for a game breaker true number 1....that Toomer and Hilliard dos not scare a defense enough and we needed a player that stretched the field. So the point made earlier about Toomer being a 2 that evolved into a 1 because he improved and also because NY Giants missed on prospects --how that gets compared to cowboy fandom is a bit of a head scratcher.

Everyone in the NFL has a chance, even Odell Beckham Jr. has a chance.

Yeah he is going to be good but let us get through his rookie season before we kill his career with insane expectations.