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Is Eli elite? Skip, Fassel, and Shannon Sharpe say..

Canton : 9/16/2016 2:53 pm
absolutely not. Watch the video below


Link - ( New Window )
The Lions have a better record than the Giants  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/16/2016 2:56 pm : link
over the past 4 years??
nope  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2016 2:56 pm : link
but Romo certainly is....derp.
oh  
mattlawson : 9/16/2016 2:56 pm : link
...  
GP : 9/16/2016 2:56 pm : link
I clicked into this thread just to implore people not to click the link and give those shit stirrers exactly what they want.
being the idiot I am  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2016 2:59 pm : link
I'm actually listening, and everything Skip says you can also say about Romo, just worse, but somehow he'd be a HoFer.
I  
Toth029 : 9/16/2016 3:01 pm : link
Bet it was riveting stuff.
RE: I  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2016 3:02 pm : link
In comment 13125214 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Bet it was riveting stuff.


I couldn't sit through all of it, its pretty brutal.
I am so over this argument...  
okiegiant : 9/16/2016 3:02 pm : link
I'll just enjoy the Championships.
All you need to know is this comment by Fassel  
Giants in 07 : 9/16/2016 3:03 pm : link
"When Eli is successful, he's had a great running game and great defense."

Just wildly inaccurate statements that have stuck. The Giants defense was last in the league in 2011.

It's amazing how Skip mentions plays that we all know and love..but no mention of the throw to Manningham in 2011, no mention of him almost single handedly winning games in GB in '07 and SF in '11, hell, no mention of him winning MVP is both Super Bowls. Wonder if they would say the same about Ben Roethlisberger who was awful and average in both SB appearances.

Also love when Skip takes seasons out of his career just to get to a career record for Eli that proves his point.

All of these shows suck balls. Ye
If you listen past  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 3:03 pm : link
the holy shit you're an idiot comments from Bayless that a 3rd grader could debate and win, Shannon Sharpe actually makes sense IMO.
RE: I am so over this argument...  
feelflows : 9/16/2016 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13125216 okiegiant said:
Quote:
I'll just enjoy the Championships.


exactly.

I don't watch football to root for Fantasy points. I root for Championships.

How many rings did Marino get Dolphins fans??

We are lucky to have Eli as the QB. Skip should enjoy his Romo fantasy points and ringless seasons.
skip  
Les in TO : 9/16/2016 3:07 pm : link
is a doosh. sharpe and to a lesser extent fassel make good points about what makes a quarterback elite (i.e. they can win games in spite of lesser talent around them) and why eli falls short of that standard.
Eli lacks the ability to make plays with his feet  
Vanzetti : 9/16/2016 3:07 pm : link
that is what makes him a notch below guys like Rogers and Big Ben.

But that is also why he has never missed a game. Those guys run around and buy themselves extra time, but that is also why they are injured a lot: they take hits that Eli doesn't.

The other negative about Eli is the interceptions. I have always thought a lot of that was the system he played under with Coughlin. We will see if the INTs go down the next few years under BM
on  
Les in TO : 9/16/2016 3:07 pm : link
another note, I'm not sure who that host/moderator is but she is most definitely elite.
its strange (even though I know why)  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2016 3:08 pm : link
how much they talk Giants/Eli on Skip shows (First Take or this one). Its so frequent that its expected.

I wonder if Skip truly believe everything he says. I know its largely an act, but i'm starting to wonder if his act is just reality for him now.
RE: All you need to know is this comment by Fassel  
Vanzetti : 9/16/2016 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13125217 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
"When Eli is successful, he's had a great running game and great defense."

Just wildly inaccurate statements that have stuck. The Giants defense was last in the league in 2011.



I think you mean the running game was last in the league.
Eli does a few things that separate him from the pack.  
WideRight : 9/16/2016 3:09 pm : link

I consider it unique rather than elite, and am quite happy with it.
RE: on  
UConn4523 : 9/16/2016 3:11 pm : link
In comment 13125228 Les in TO said:
Quote:
another note, I'm not sure who that host/moderator is but she is most definitely elite.


She's hot, just read she's Jason Taylor's sister.
RE: RE: All you need to know is this comment by Fassel  
chuckydee9 : 9/16/2016 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13125232 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
In comment 13125217 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


"When Eli is successful, he's had a great running game and great defense."

Just wildly inaccurate statements that have stuck. The Giants defense was last in the league in 2011.





I think you mean the running game was last in the league.


he was also the most pressured QB in the league that year..
Fassel, as in Jim Fassel?  
mfsd : 9/16/2016 3:16 pm : link
The guy who was so fucking bad in every interview that he never got another HC job in the NFL?

Yeah, fuck him
Jim Fassel?  
Mr. Bungle : 9/16/2016 3:19 pm : link
Real A-list guests on that show, huh?
RE: skip  
Toth029 : 9/16/2016 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13125225 Les in TO said:
Quote:
is a doosh. sharpe and to a lesser extent fassel make good points about what makes a quarterback elite (i.e. they can win games in spite of lesser talent around them) and why eli falls short of that standard.
Who can do that? Peyton is the only one in recent memory.
That was fucking awful and I am ashamed of myself for watching...  
JCin332 : 9/16/2016 3:25 pm : link
Fassel really come off as a nincompoop with his lack of knowledge of the facts...
How the hell is...  
Todd in MA : 9/16/2016 3:26 pm : link
Cam Newton elite? He had an outstanding season last year, but lost the Super Bowl. One great year! Elite! I don't get it!
Yeah, he looked "elite" against Denver to open the 2016-17 season. Shannon, Skip and Fassel...enough! I agree with them that Eli is not on the Brady, Rogers, and Brees level, but who is? Not Newton!
Fassel is a laughing stock mockery  
moespree : 9/16/2016 3:26 pm : link
This is a league who gave multiple jobs to people like Eric Mangini and many others with horrific winning %. Chip Kelly gets run out of town and gets a new job like a week later. Same with Rex Ryan. Yet there's Jim. Can't even get a coordinator job unless he has to have his friend give him one, only to realize how awful he is and fire him half way through.

Who cares what Jim Fassel thinks? None of the NFL owners or coaches apparently.
Fassel  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 3:27 pm : link
seems like he's high and before the question was asked decided he was going to agree with whatever Skip says so he can get another $50 appearance fee (or whatever he gets).

incoherent drivel.

I still think Sharpe made sense, and I don't have a problem with what he said.
SKip  
BleedBlue : 9/16/2016 3:29 pm : link
is consistently the worst analyst out there. he loves tebow(who is a shitty QB and out of NFL) he said giants got lucky last weekend. Said Eli and giants got lucky twice in two super bowls(ignored what it took to get there) he is the biggest jackass
The roundtable analysis literally goes from  
Chris684 : 9/16/2016 3:30 pm : link
dumb, dumber and dumbest.

Skip: So Eli would not have two Super Bowls but for two lucky plays? Lol. And of the two Super Bowls one was "very" lucky and one was only "fairly" lucky. Brilliant.

Fassel: He clearly must have been asleep during the entire 2011 season where the Giants had no run game to speak of and no defense outside of the final 6 games. I defended him on one of the few Fassel threads that pop up around here from time to time but you really have to wonder if he can view Eli objectively considering he and Kerry Collins were dumped for an all-time HC/QB tandem in TC/Eli.

Sharpe: As is the case when he usually talks, I couldnt understand most of what he said but I thought I heard a reference to Cam Newton in there and then I stopped listening.
Lets say this...there are about 27 teams in the league  
Blue21 : 9/16/2016 3:37 pm : link
that would grab him in a heart beat. Is that elite? Pretty close to it if not. His bad rep is from the picks in my opinion. But too many observers forget about the crunch time wins and the 2 Super Bowls.
RE: All you need to know is this comment by Fassel  
shabu : 9/16/2016 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13125217 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
"When Eli is successful, he's had a great running game and great defense."

Just wildly inaccurate statements that have stuck. The Giants defense was last in the league in 2011.

It's amazing how Skip mentions plays that we all know and love..but no mention of the throw to Manningham in 2011, no mention of him almost single handedly winning games in GB in '07 and SF in '11, hell, no mention of him winning MVP is both Super Bowls. Wonder if they would say the same about Ben Roethlisberger who was awful and average in both SB appearances.

Also love when Skip takes seasons out of his career just to get to a career record for Eli that proves his point.

All of these shows suck balls. Ye


Well said. Fassel was so off the mark.
When he is done  
Carl in CT : 9/16/2016 3:39 pm : link
His numbers will be so impressive he will be considered elite.
what a stupid argument  
chris r : 9/16/2016 3:41 pm : link
first, define elite - then rank Eli and see if he is elite by your definition.

If elite is top 3, then maybe he's not. If its top 10, he absolutely is.
It all depends on your definition of Elite  
Old Dirty Beckham : 9/16/2016 3:43 pm : link
He's not in the same class as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, etc. But so what? He's good enough to win multiple superbowls with. The rest is just for shows like the one linked.
Not going to watch  
Gman11 : 9/16/2016 3:46 pm : link
because that sort of thing is meant to stir up shit and nothing else.

It would be boring if three guys sit there and nod uh-huh to each other as they all agree on the same thing. So, they have to have guys take a side and act like they are passionate in their opinions so the people that watch will go on web sites and comment about it.
RE: It all depends on your definition of Elite  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 3:47 pm : link
In comment 13125284 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
He's not in the same class as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, etc. But so what? He's good enough to win multiple superbowls with. The rest is just for shows like the one linked.


that's what Sharpe said. he said Eli is a notch below that level though Sharpe put Ben and Cam Newton in the elite class and said no matter who is out of the lineup or where you're playing the elite QB's will help you win. Hard to argue against IMO with Eli as your guy and it could be a function of the injuries and roster building as much as Eli, but so far it's been mostly accurate IMO.
I'm actually OK with what Sharpe said  
Johnny5 : 9/16/2016 3:48 pm : link
But Bayless is a fucking Moron. That said, I agree with what Vanzetti posted. Nobody can argue that he's not right there, if he keeps his INTs down and they have a good year, I think that goes along way. And if we win the big one again? Nobody will be able to question it.
This is why I prefer  
bceagle05 : 9/16/2016 3:55 pm : link
when the Giants stay under the radar completely. Whenever they show signs of life, the only thing the talking heads want to do is trash Eli, especially now that they don't have the old man to kick around any longer. If Fassel had Eli in 2000 he'd probably have a Super Bowl ring and a head coaching job somewhere.
whether Eli is elite or not  
LG in NYC : 9/16/2016 3:58 pm : link
I feel dumber for having watched those 3 idiots speak for 7+ minutes.

They were so wildly inconsistent in what they said and how they said it, it would have been nice for someone else to have been on set to call them on it.
Sorry ....  
Beer Man : 9/16/2016 4:03 pm : link
I can only listen so much to Skip then it is either punch the computer screen or turn it off. I'm sure Shannon and Fassel had nice things to say, but I couldn't take anymore of Skip and had to shut it off.
Eli  
stretch234 : 9/16/2016 4:03 pm : link
Why this still continues to bother people i have no idea.

Eli is not Peyton

Eli forced a trade

Eli plays in NY

Eli is boring

The narrative is not going to change now that he is 34/35 despite his numbers. It is easier to dump on him than not. Always has been, always will be. the best thing about it is he does not give a shit!

Win games/get to the playoffs.
RE: RE: It all depends on your definition of Elite  
Toth029 : 9/16/2016 4:04 pm : link
In comment 13125288 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13125284 Old Dirty Beckham said:


Quote:


He's not in the same class as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, etc. But so what? He's good enough to win multiple superbowls with. The rest is just for shows like the one linked.



that's what Sharpe said. he said Eli is a notch below that level though Sharpe put Ben and Cam Newton in the elite class and said no matter who is out of the lineup or where you're playing the elite QB's will help you win. Hard to argue against IMO with Eli as your guy and it could be a function of the injuries and roster building as much as Eli, but so far it's been mostly accurate IMO.

Ben hasn't done anything without his defense (and run game).

And I don't know what this narrative is about Cam not having help. He had multiple Pro Bowlers on his OL (his tackles are suspect, but interior is fantastic... sounds familiar), Greg Olsen has always been one of the better receiving TE's, Jon Stewart is a very good back when healthy (he was), and his defense was 6th in the league with #1 being in takeaways.
Holy cr@p  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2016 4:08 pm : link
Fassell is stinking drunk in that piece -- what a fukking clown
As the resident homer,  
Randy in CT : 9/16/2016 4:09 pm : link
I wouldn't trade Eli for anyone and think we will get at least one more (presumably one) SB from him.
Wonder what Skip would say about his man crush  
Beer Man : 9/16/2016 4:10 pm : link
Tony Homo if asked if he is elite. How many playoff games have the Cowboys been in, how many have they won in Romo's tenure? When was the last time the Cowboys even got a sniff of the SB?
btw  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/16/2016 4:10 pm : link
you can't tell me that Brady, Rogers and Favre could perform at a high level without having some talent around them - there's no fukkin way
RE: RE: RE: It all depends on your definition of Elite  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13125322 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 13125288 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13125284 Old Dirty Beckham said:


Quote:


He's not in the same class as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, etc. But so what? He's good enough to win multiple superbowls with. The rest is just for shows like the one linked.



that's what Sharpe said. he said Eli is a notch below that level though Sharpe put Ben and Cam Newton in the elite class and said no matter who is out of the lineup or where you're playing the elite QB's will help you win. Hard to argue against IMO with Eli as your guy and it could be a function of the injuries and roster building as much as Eli, but so far it's been mostly accurate IMO.


Ben hasn't done anything without his defense (and run game).

And I don't know what this narrative is about Cam not having help. He had multiple Pro Bowlers on his OL (his tackles are suspect, but interior is fantastic... sounds familiar), Greg Olsen has always been one of the better receiving TE's, Jon Stewart is a very good back when healthy (he was), and his defense was 6th in the league with #1 being in takeaways.


First off, I hate to defend Ben, he has one of the worst SB performance in NFL history, winning or losing QB.

Ben led his team into Denver with no Le'Veon Bell, no Pouncey, no DeAneglo Williams, no Antonio Brown, ancient Heath Miller against the leagues top D and threw for 339 yards.

His team lost, but he showed up and played well enough to win. Carolina had dog shit at WR last year, sure Greg Olsen is a good TE and they had a couple pieces on the OL, but almost no weapons on O besides Cam and they went to the SB.

I'm not even going to bother with Brady.

Sometimes you look at Giants games where they have injuries, like MIN last year, where you take Beckham away from Eli, and it's like you have 11 guys on offense who are making their first trip to an NFL football field.

I think that's what Sharpe was saying.

agree with him or not, I understand what he was saying and I'm not sure there is evidence there to support otherwise.
It sounds like that critique of a RB  
Randy in CT : 9/16/2016 4:17 pm : link
"Well, if you take away his 85 yard TD, his average goes way down!"

Of course a QB needs a surrounding cast. Are we really arguing that Eli didn't play an integral role in the winning of those 2 SBs?
Brandon Jacobs chimed in  
Old Dirty Beckham : 9/16/2016 4:18 pm : link
..
Jacobs on Eli - ( New Window )
Shannon Sharpe makes the best argument......  
Simms11 : 9/16/2016 4:32 pm : link
of the group. Skip Bayless comes across as smug and an absolute Giant hater; although he says he's being objective?! Fassel doesn't sound like he even knows anything about Eli's career. I can't argue that Eli is elite either though. I think they're right about him being a rung below Brady, Rogers and Brees though. If Eli can just get them back to another Super Bowl, I think he'd shut most of these people up!
Eli  
stretch234 : 9/16/2016 4:34 pm : link
The media can do their thing. People in the NFL know 1 thing.

He has played 2 NFC Championship games and 2 SB. The last time he touched the ball in each of those games, his team was losing or tied and he won all 4.

He is the perfect QB for NY
RE: All you need to know is this comment by Fassel  
Sonic Youth : 9/16/2016 4:35 pm : link
In comment 13125217 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
"When Eli is successful, he's had a great running game and great defense."

Just wildly inaccurate statements that have stuck. The Giants defense was last in the league in 2011.

It's amazing how Skip mentions plays that we all know and love..but no mention of the throw to Manningham in 2011, no mention of him almost single handedly winning games in GB in '07 and SF in '11, hell, no mention of him winning MVP is both Super Bowls. Wonder if they would say the same about Ben Roethlisberger who was awful and average in both SB appearances.

Also love when Skip takes seasons out of his career just to get to a career record for Eli that proves his point.

All of these shows suck balls. Ye
How the fuck this is said in 2016, and at any point after 2011, is baffling
By their standard  
bceagle05 : 9/16/2016 4:35 pm : link
I guess Drew Brees isn't elite either?
RE: Fassel, as in Jim Fassel?  
Les in TO : 9/16/2016 4:46 pm : link
In comment 13125249 mfsd said:
Quote:
The guy who was so fucking bad in every interview that he never got another HC job in the NFL?

Yeah, fuck him
he knows a thing or two about qbs with a long portfolio of successful ones who he has coached at both the pro and college levels.
Eli,  
oldog : 9/16/2016 4:50 pm : link
you can't spell "Hall of fame eligible", without Eli.
RE: RE: Fassel, as in Jim Fassel?  
mfsd : 9/16/2016 5:11 pm : link
In comment 13125386 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 13125249 mfsd said:


Quote:


The guy who was so fucking bad in every interview that he never got another HC job in the NFL?

Yeah, fuck him

he knows a thing or two about qbs with a long portfolio of successful ones who he has coached at both the pro and college levels.


And he's also a drunken scumbag.
RE: Eli lacks the ability to make plays with his feet  
santacruzom : 9/16/2016 5:57 pm : link
In comment 13125226 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
that is what makes him a notch below guys like Rogers and Big Ben.


To me, the phrase that separates the truly elite QB's from those who are a notch below is: "As long as _______ is their QB they're in every game."

I can imagine saying that about Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, even Cam Newton to an extent. But I think it doesn't quite hold the same water when said of Eli.
another hint at why Fassel never got another job  
Victor in CT : 9/16/2016 7:57 pm : link
dooshbag
What has cam newton done for his entire career ?  
djm : 9/16/2016 8:15 pm : link
Remind again what this guy has done up until now? Hint-- one MVP one NFC title and two division titles. And he's been around for a while now. He's elite but Eli isn't? So we just throw out and ignore cam's first few years when he didn't win shit is that it?

Love selective sample sizes.



Watch this  
PA Giant Fan : 9/16/2016 8:46 pm : link
After watching the thread starer
Link - ( New Window )
Skip contradicting himself  
PA Giant Fan : 9/16/2016 8:48 pm : link
All these guys miss the point of what a great QB does. He puts your team in the best position to win. He can make all the throws. He is as smart as they get and he will make the huge play and he is tough as can be. He calls the sets at the line, and 2011 he had shit on defense.

Watch that GB game. Dude was ridiculous.
RE: What has cam newton done for his entire career ?  
santacruzom : 9/16/2016 8:58 pm : link
In comment 13125584 djm said:
Quote:
Remind again what this guy has done up until now? Hint-- one MVP one NFC title and two division titles. And he's been around for a while now. He's elite but Eli isn't? So we just throw out and ignore cam's first few years when he didn't win shit is that it?

Love selective sample sizes.




It's not Newton's fault his sample size is small on account of only having played 5 seasons. He's obviously not going to lead his team to win every game, but he can always threaten to take over in ways few QB's can.
RE: oh  
Milton : 9/16/2016 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13125207 mattlawson said:
Quote:
That old chestnut
This had nothing to do with Eli or football, but you jarred my memory as that phrase is said at the 3:58 mark of the below video and then again at the 4:20 mark (because no one heard him the first time and he thought it was going to be edited out)....
Carpool Karaoke with Lin Manuel Miranda and others.... - ( New Window )
RE: Watch this  
GloryDayz : 9/16/2016 9:05 pm : link
In comment 13125604 PA Giant Fan said:
Quote:
After watching the thread starer Link - ( New Window )


What's ironic is that was in 2014. Since then Eli has thrown 65 TDs, 28 INT's, 8800+ yards (not including Dallas this season). If anything since they aired that episode, you'd think Eli would only be thought of better.
In this day of fantasy football and ESPN talking head and highlights  
steve in ky : 9/16/2016 9:38 pm : link
too many people place too high an emphasis on stats and less on results.

For so long Eli has been knocked over INT's yet for most of his career he would wait in the pocket longer and sling it down field farther to make the big play, a real difference making play while many other QB's played a higher percentage shorter passing game.

Which one is better is irrelevant, the only point is that Eli cared only about making a winning play and his style naturally lent itself to also throwing some INT's and for a lower completion percentage. It is a risk reward thing and he has proven he can pull of the big play in the big moment.

When I started watching football and for many years afterwards great QB's were recognized for their abilities to sling the ball downfield, making the big play when needed, and winning championships. That is what Eli does.

So many fans and "experts" are so enamored with players physical gifts and stats but seem to forget the only real goal of a football team is to win a championship. So while of course their are many factors to be considered when talking about a QB's greatness the one overriding stat that has to be considered it the bottom line of winning big games when it counts and being the last team standing at seasons end.

That is where Eli shines the brightest.

Sure their are more impressive athletes but there are not many better football players.



RE: In this day of fantasy football and ESPN talking head and highlights  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 10:05 pm : link
In comment 13125639 steve in ky said:
Quote:
too many people place too high an emphasis on stats and less on results.

For so long Eli has been knocked over INT's yet for most of his career he would wait in the pocket longer and sling it down field farther to make the big play, a real difference making play while many other QB's played a higher percentage shorter passing game.

Which one is better is irrelevant, the only point is that Eli cared only about making a winning play and his style naturally lent itself to also throwing some INT's and for a lower completion percentage. It is a risk reward thing and he has proven he can pull of the big play in the big moment.

When I started watching football and for many years afterwards great QB's were recognized for their abilities to sling the ball downfield, making the big play when needed, and winning championships. That is what Eli does.

So many fans and "experts" are so enamored with players physical gifts and stats but seem to forget the only real goal of a football team is to win a championship. So while of course their are many factors to be considered when talking about a QB's greatness the one overriding stat that has to be considered it the bottom line of winning big games when it counts and being the last team standing at seasons end.

That is where Eli shines the brightest.

Sure their are more impressive athletes but there are not many better football players.




In Eli's career the Giants have won playoff games in only two seasons out of his 12 season career. they've made the playoffs in just 5 of his 12 seasons. they've had .500 or worse records in 6 of his 12 seasons.

Some people say they judge QB's too much based on team results giving them too much blame and credit.

You're saying people are too stat heavy and not enough W/L focused - can't have it both ways.

By either measure Eli had two incredible, magical post-season runs, but is not an elite QB.

people try and bring other variables in like team defense or running game or weapons, it's all noise and situations will never be 100% perfectly comparable. Or they say "I wouldn't trade Eli for any QB in the league" (and I can almost guarantee you hear the same thing from Brady fans, Rodgers fans, Brees fans, Newton fans, Russel Wilson fans, Big Ben fans, etc.)

I love Eli, maybe he's the best QB in Giants history, but if you watch him objectively he might even wind up a hall-of-famer because his great moments are so great, they just don't come consistently enough to call him elite, he's a notch below the elite guys for me - but I don't give a shit if someone says he's elite or someone says he's not elite.
RE: RE: In this day of fantasy football and ESPN talking head and highlights  
dep026 : 9/16/2016 10:14 pm : link
In comment 13125656 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
...


Lets just say I disagree with you 100% on this and to further make this thread a pissing contest, Ill respect your opinion, but think its way off base.
pj  
steve in ky : 9/16/2016 10:18 pm : link
Quote:
You're saying people are too stat heavy and not enough W/L focused - can't have it both ways.


I don't believe that is what I said. I thought I was pretty clear that IMO it's all about winning championships.

Quote:
he has proven he can pull of the big play in the big moment.

Quote:
great QB's were recognized for their abilities to sling the ball downfield, making the big play when needed, and winning championships. That is what Eli does.

Quote:
the only real goal of a football team is to win a championship. So while of course their are many factors to be considered when talking about a QB's greatness the one overriding stat that has to be considered it the bottom line of winning big games when it counts and being the last team standing at seasons end.
Id love to break down those 3 bozos  
dep026 : 9/16/2016 10:26 pm : link
and their analysis, but I am too tired to type out a long written explanation.

Some things to consider though with Eli.
1. He won 2 SBs with three different WRs and TE in each SB.
2. His defense have been on average worse than any top QB who has played at a top level (I proved this on a prior thread.)
3. He makes his WRs better than their talent allows them (sans maybe OBJ). For instance, Rueben Randle is not playing in the NFL right now, cut from a team with the worst WRs in the league, a year after he had over 900 yards and 8 TDs. You have some fucking serious skill having Randle putting up stats like that.
4. Eli is hated because he throws INTs. Well if he didnt risk throws and took sacks, we would probably have 2 less SBs.
5. He has never played with an elite offensive skill player for more than 3 years.
6. Amazing how they dont bring up another key stat.... he has played for one of the most injured franchises during his ENTIRE career. Go check back to 2007 and see who we lost during the year.

I find it hysterical the amount of love Ben gets now, even though their careers are identical for the most part, Russell Wilson is becoming the most overrated player in sports.

Some other fun notes. Drew Brees has been to the playoffs 6 times, Eli 5 times. No mention of that but Brees is elite.

Its becoming apparent to me, and it should that unless Eli does something remarkable the next few years like throwing up insane stats, playoffs wins, maybe even another SB that Eli has 0% chance of making the hall of fame. He is by far and away the most disrespected athlete outside of his own city I hve ever seen. He will be top5-7 in all QB stats with at least 2 SBs. Yet many people will continue to shit on him.
Like the HOF, there are different levels of elite  
Giants2012 : 9/16/2016 10:29 pm : link
If elite was one taxonomy then every elite QB would be considered on the same level as the Dan Marino type.
This was your first sentence  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 10:29 pm : link
Quote:
...too many people place too high an emphasis on stats and less on results.


if missing the playoffs more than 50% of your seasons and winning even a single playoff game in only two of your 12 seasons, and not considering him elite based on that, how is that putting too much emphasis on stats and not results?

Seems like that sentiment (and I hate Bayless, but it's kind of exactly what he said other than the stupid "lucky" comments) is completely contradictory to your assumption about stats.
If you watched the video, Sharpe even refuted the stat argument by citing Brett Favre as leading the lead (and NFL history) in interceptions.
So if Eli had  
steve in ky : 9/16/2016 10:41 pm : link
made the playoff every season and won a couple of games each time yet never led the team to a championship he would be more Elite?

For me there is one clear goal of a professional football team and that is to win a championship. Eli has done that twice and one could argue that he largely carried the teams on his back when doing so.

Football is a team sport and for a variety of factors teams have years where they don't make the playoffs. And of course we as fans hate to see it when it happens but I bet there are many fans of teams who had great consecutive playoff runs to only fail in the end that would trade places with us in a heartbeat, and the reason why is because it is all about winning a championship. That is the sole goal at the start of each season. And when using that measure Eli has been great.
RE: So if Eli had  
pjcas18 : 9/16/2016 10:51 pm : link
In comment 13125677 steve in ky said:
Quote:
made the playoff every season and won a couple of games each time yet never led the team to a championship he would be more Elite?

For me there is one clear goal of a professional football team and that is to win a championship. Eli has done that twice and one could argue that he largely carried the teams on his back when doing so.

Football is a team sport and for a variety of factors teams have years where they don't make the playoffs. And of course we as fans hate to see it when it happens but I bet there are many fans of teams who had great consecutive playoff runs to only fail in the end that would trade places with us in a heartbeat, and the reason why is because it is all about winning a championship. That is the sole goal at the start of each season. And when using that measure Eli has been great.


Nope, you need both rings and consistency, that's why it's rare to be elite and shouldn't be used so easily.

I just don't care how anyone classifies Eli. You want to say he's elite, go right ahead, you want to say he's not, don't care.

I have my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs and I won't try and convince anyone otherwise, even if it seems I am. I'm just presenting their reasons.
This burns me to the core  
ANGPASS : 9/16/2016 11:09 pm : link
How the hell is Cam all of a sudden an ELITE QB after 1 great season? I give him credit. But before that he had a mediocre 2 years after his rookie year. I can't put him over in the ELITE category after 1 season.

Big Ben? I love Ben, but it is almost sickening to compare Eli to Ben based on wins. Dumb Fuck Fassel said Eli is most effective when he has a good defense and a strong run game. ISN'T Everyone??? Big Ben never had a defense worse than 14 in the league. He never had a bad run game. He is great, but you mean to tell me Eli can't be a consistent playoff contender on the steelers?

Brees? Brees is great, but like Eli, his team sucks donkey dick. Look at his defense. Trash. They make him seem like he is contending for super bowls every year. I didn't realize the Saints were in the playoffs every year for the past 5 years. He puts up numbers but not wins. He has no big time stars on his defense.
Rogers has clay, peppers, etc. Brady has the greatest coach of all time and a pretty good system apparently. The Pats beat the cardinals without Brady, grown, 2 starting OL and Rob Ninkovic. Anyone think the giants could beat the Cardinals without Eli? Nope. so let's not make Brady seem like a GOD either. Cam had an amazing defense. Payton literally won a super bowl riding a defense last year. Why can't Eli ever get a defense like these guys?
Skip is a FOOL AND A HALF. Eli is lucky because walker drop a pass. But Brady has NOOO luck at all winning 4 super bowls. Not 1. getting caught cheating 2 times and the Seahawks not running it with marshawn is all Brady's doing right? Tuck Rule, no luck. Pats r 12-5 without Brady. If Eli made that throw to Santonio, he would have been lucky not to be picked. No credit to the throw to Manningham.

Look at the WRs Eli had.

Steve Smith - Fell of the face of the earth after catching 100 plus and making the pro bowl with Eli
Kevin Boss - Got paid by Oakland because of Eli and disappeared.
Jake Ballard - Who?
Toomers best years were before Eli. Toomer couldn't make it on the chiefs in 2009. Eli was playing with an Old WR who barely got any yards after catch.
Hakeem Nicks - only 28 and fell apart. Not even the ALMIGHT Andrew Luck could do anything with him.
Ruben Randle - Catches 8 TDs and 900 yards with Eli - Can even make the eagles.

Another thing. It is always Eli's WRs that made him look good. Eli just threw it up to plax. Then Plax shoots himself. Then Cruz and Nicks make him look good. Nicks is gone and Cruz missed two years. Now it's Odell that makes Eli look good. To me, if a guy is looking good for 12 years with different Wrs, maybe it is because he is , idk... ACTUALLY GOOD.






Eli Needs W's!  
Rafflee : 9/16/2016 11:40 pm : link
Now that Coughlin is gone, Eli needs to re-establish himself as a winning QB. Their past 2 seasons have been piss poor. I don't believe it's all on him, but fair is fair--- you keep losing games and you're not an elite QB. You're a USED TO BE ELITE Qb
This stupid, pointless friggin conversation again?  
Torrag : 9/17/2016 12:19 am : link
Eli is ours and we're both glad and lucky to have him. That's all that matters and needs to be said.
And people wonder why Fassel has not had another HC job?  
montanagiant : 9/17/2016 12:23 am : link
Shit like this nonsense is most likely why
You can't make the playoffs  
SHO'NUFF : 9/17/2016 1:01 am : link
with the decimated roster we've had for the last 4 years...I don't care who your QB is...
RE: Eli Needs W's!  
SethFromAstoria : 9/17/2016 5:27 am : link
In comment 13125706 Rafflee said:
Quote:
Now that Coughlin is gone, Eli needs to re-establish himself as a winning QB. Their past 2 seasons have been piss poor. I don't believe it's all on him, but fair is fair--- you keep losing games and you're not an elite QB. You're a USED TO BE ELITE Qb


the last few years are on him. They have gone 19-29 over the last 3 years. If he wasnt on the team they would have gone 9-39. On the high end.

In my opinion ELi makes his receivers as good as possible, as long as they can keep up and understand what he's telling them to do.
Eli will never get the respect he deserves.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/17/2016 6:51 am : link
It's just the basic truth.
These guys are idiots  
UberAlias : 9/17/2016 7:14 am : link
I'm not going to waste my time watching as I'm sure it will be brutal.

That said, I don't think Eli is an elite QB. A good one, for sure, but I would not label him elite. And I really hate to say that because he is my favorite player of all time and I have never rooted for a player more than him.
When he throws for  
est1986 : 9/17/2016 7:16 am : link
4K yards and 40 TDs this season, that will put this to bed.
Amazing...the narrative has been written...  
JCin332 : 9/17/2016 7:49 am : link
Brady, Rodgers, Ben and the other so called elites don't need good players around them to win...

Eli on the other hand does hence not elite...

The reality is all those guys have had better supporting casts over their careers than our guy..

Hence the narrative is poppycock...
RE: RE: What has cam newton done for his entire career ?  
djm : 9/17/2016 8:42 am : link
In comment 13125611 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 13125584 djm said:


Quote:


Remind again what this guy has done up until now? Hint-- one MVP one NFC title and two division titles. And he's been around for a while now. He's elite but Eli isn't? So we just throw out and ignore cam's first few years when he didn't win shit is that it?

Love selective sample sizes.






It's not Newton's fault his sample size is small on account of only having played 5 seasons. He's obviously not going to lead his team to win every game, but he can always threaten to take over in ways few QB's can.


After five seasons Eli already had two NFC east titles, one NFC title and one super bowl title plus MVP award.

Yet Eli was still on the bubble even back then. All he Did after thst was win another super bowl MVP and really played at a league MVP level that entire 2011 season, then complied some of his best best stats in 14-15 while appearing to be on his way to one heck of an encore performance here in 2016.

This shit is old. Eli is a made guy. He's done more than cam and cam won't touch Eli's postseason accolades. Bet on it.

Eli is the very embodiment of elite. I hate these fucktards on tv.
Well, the fact is,  
Doomster : 9/17/2016 8:47 am : link
Eli has only had, one season, that I consider elite, and that was in 2011, when before the season started, he said he felt he should be mentioned with the elite qb's in the NFL....and he went out there and proved it....he literally carried that team to victories in the fourth quarters, and stepped up his game in the post season....despite having a defense that gave up more points than the offense scored...

And he is an Iron Man.....when you play 11 full seasons, and average 26 td's and 3800 yards per, you will accumulate HOF career stats....before all is said and done, he may reach the top 5 in many of the offensive categories for qb's......and if you look at the qb's ahead of him, only one has won more SB's.....

When you have never watched a player's career, all fans look at is stats.....they don't know what kind of running attack, receivers, offensive line, or defense that qb has had....

This nonsense that certain qb's can still lead teams to victories, even when key players are hurt, is total bull shit.....Garapolo led the Patriots to a victory over the Cardinals with the likes of Gronk, Ninkovich, and Lewis on the sidelines.....it's more the system, than the qb, in some cases.....

Eli does not have the flashy seasons, where he throws for 50 td's......and unfortunately, he will always come up short, when compared to his brother.....he probably would be given more praise, if his last name wasn't Manning...
Eli has always been outside the top 3...or 4  
Rafflee : 9/17/2016 1:11 pm : link
Brady---Rodgers---Peyton...and I probably throw Ben in that Basket as well. Eli has always been in the 4/4-6/7/8 slot. He can never be a top 3 QB. I won;t complain or bash hom for that.

There is room outside that top 3 for a guy to be a HOF QB.... Eli has a strong case in that regard.

Wilson, Luck, Eli, Drew B....that's my next grouping. Drew needs wins, like Eli. Luck needs some time, some wins, some Glory---he's capable of that Top 3 Level.

Eli gets you In and Out of Good and Bad at the Line of Scrimmage with the best of them. He delivers in big spots and makes all the throws.

He is their starting point...and he's a heckuva a place to start.

Rodgers...Ben...Brady...Drew...Wilson...Eli...Luck...Cam...Carson.... I'm sure I'm missing a name, but something like that.

Who is Skip Bayless and why would anyone think a national audience  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 9/18/2016 12:29 am : link
would be interested in him?

Skip can have his elite Tony Romo and his 2-4 playoff record and we'll keep Eli with his lucky 8-1 road playoff record and two Super Bowl MVPs.

Twenty years from now fans will still talk of the two great Giant playoff runs while they won't remember what team Romo played for.

But don't you hate it when they pick out one play that went against the losing team and say the outcome of the game depended on that one play? The Patriots lost because Welker dropped an easy catch. What about the blatant Manningham pass interference call that wasn't called?

Michael Irvin, to his credit, on a postgame show said that the ball was thrown behind Welker, he would have had to turn his body in mid-air, and it would have been a very difficult catch.

But that's not what the news people wanted to hear.

Skip Bayless?  
Giants_ROK : 9/18/2016 12:36 am : link
Every chance I get.
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