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Will Tye Cost Victor Cruz the Fumble

LooneyTune : 9/19/2016 5:29 pm
I was re watching the Victor Cruz play and I noticed Will Tye decided to pull up from blocking Ken Crowley. He had him straight in his sights as Victor Cruz was turning up field, and for some reason decides not to hit him. If Will Tye even taps Crowley on this play then Victor Cruz is either gone for a TD or at the very least would not have fumbled.



Obviously Cruz needs to hold on to the ball regardless, but it is very promisong to see that Cruz has this big play potential. Reminded me of this TD vs Dallas in 2011 when he caught a similar ball out of the flat and turned it up for a 74 yard TD.






Crowley actually swerved around Tye and went OB  
jlukes : 9/19/2016 5:30 pm : link
Cruz carrying the ball away from his body is what cost him the fumble
Just watched it again - Tye actually lowers his shoulder for the block  
jlukes : 9/19/2016 5:34 pm : link
and Crowley went around him.

Kudos to Tye for not being overly aggressive on the block and getting called for a crackback block
I remember seeing that  
Jay on the Island : 9/19/2016 5:34 pm : link
on the replay and wondering why Tye didn't lay him out. He may have pulled up because he feared a blocking in the back penalty.
Jlukes, I remember seeing that and wondering if that was a penalty.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 9/19/2016 5:35 pm : link
Is that illegal like how if you step out of bounds you can't be the first person to touch the ball?
Cruz  
Old Dirty Beckham : 9/19/2016 5:38 pm : link
fumbled because he didnt protect the ball. Dont blame this on Will Tye.
Cruz cost Cruz the fumble  
Mason : 9/19/2016 5:40 pm : link
Cruz has lost the ball a couple of times in 2011 where he was fortunate that it was revealed that he was down by contact, gave himself up or the catch was ruled incomplete.

He often tries to extend plays and reach the ball out for more yardage.

if he lays him out there  
mort christenson : 9/19/2016 5:42 pm : link
that is probably an unsportsmanlike conduct foul so he actually did the right thing. You can't do that anymore.
A number of our offensive playmakers have a tendency to swing the ball  
LI NHB : 9/19/2016 5:42 pm : link
and not maintain 4-points of pressure. This should be an obviously area of focus this week as we ramp up for Washington. 3 balls on the turf in any capacity is a bad bad deal.
Cruz holding the ball  
Rambo : 9/19/2016 5:44 pm : link
was so un-fundamentally wrong. It's football 101 he was trying to make a big play which is great but in traffic he should have used 2 hands even if it slowed him down. Poor choice.
Unsportsman Like Conduct?  
LooneyTune : 9/19/2016 5:51 pm : link
It would only be a penalty if Tye blocks him in the back. He was square on and could have easily peeled Crowley off the play. If you watch Tye he just kind of stops.
bingo jlukes  
ECham : 9/19/2016 5:52 pm : link
Tye is worried about a block in the back
BS  
Gross Blau Oberst : 9/19/2016 5:54 pm : link
Quote:
Will Tye Cost Victor Cruz the Fumble

LooneyTune : 5:29 pm


Bull Cookies! Cruz caused his own fumble by holding the ball away from his body. He broke the cardinal rule - secure the ball. Too caught up in his own achievement to do the basics.

You are indeed Looney.
The way Tye blocks  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/19/2016 5:55 pm : link
he should worry about blocks in the front too.
RE: Just watched it again - Tye actually lowers his shoulder for the block  
montanagiant : 9/19/2016 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13131067 jlukes said:
Quote:
and Crowley went around him.

Kudos to Tye for not being overly aggressive on the block and getting called for a crackback block

My take also
Good learning  
giantgiantfan : 9/19/2016 5:56 pm : link
experience for Cruz, always better to learn that after a win instead of a loss. I imagine Cruz had way too much adrenaline going ass thats the first time he had the ball in space in years. Wanted to go balls to the wall for YAC.

He'll be fine, I don't expect to see that again from him this year.
That's not on Tye  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/19/2016 5:56 pm : link
He could have gotten flagged for a back block. Cruz has to protect the ball/be aware.
I think they both share some blame ....  
Manny in CA : 9/19/2016 6:18 pm : link

Tye - No need for lowering the shoulder (to try to launch Crawley into the stands, and make the Sports Center Highlight), just get in the way, Will !

Cruz - He should have known better, especially when he was forced to slow down to avoid tacklers trying to cut him off. Swinging the ball WAY-BEHIND-HIS-BACK was asking for trouble.

He got caught up in the moment. He's a vet, it will never happen again.

It WAS exciting seeing him in full stride, down the sideline ! I'm very happy for him.

Tye's no-play  
CT Charlie : 9/19/2016 6:37 pm : link
was a good play.
Unsportsmanlike..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 6:46 pm : link
was most definitely possible:

Quote:
Unsportsman Like Conduct?
LooneyTune : 5:51 pm : link : reply
It would only be a penalty if Tye blocks him in the back. He was square on and could have easily peeled Crowley off the play. If you watch Tye he just kind of stops.


They now have a penalty for a blindside block which is pretty much a way to let the refs call any block that looks vicious to be a penalty, whether or not it is in the back or to the side.
Not a block in the back  
jlukes : 9/19/2016 6:50 pm : link
a crack-back block

Basically a "violent" block when the blocker is moving back towards the LOS (or in the opposite direction the defender is coming.

Like FMIC, it was meant to prevent players from blowing up other players to the head when blocking, but now it's called on any high-impact block where blocker is moving back towards the line of scrimmage
Yeah, the premise of this thread is incorrect.  
arcarsenal : 9/19/2016 6:50 pm : link
Victor needs to protect the football.. he had it out and away from his body with most of it exposed. Tye re-routed the defender and probably didn't want to get flagged but Crowley got back into the play.
Cruz never tucked the ball in  
Rory : 9/19/2016 6:50 pm : link
its his fault his reaction tells you all you need to know.

I'm actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 6:53 pm : link
OK with guys having a turnover when they are trying to make plays. Cruz probably didn't sense that he'd get caught from the backside and was trying tyo juke the guy in front of him. While it is a bit careless, he's also trying to make a big play and I hope he keeps doing that.

It's funny, I actually texted Giant Mike after that play to say that Cruz looks back. The speed and moves he flashed were far more important than the fumble for me.
Pretty much agree with Fats ...  
Manny in CA : 9/19/2016 7:01 pm : link

The key word - Vicious (that's what needs to be avoided)

If Tye just gets in the way (a lot like a slow clunker car in a highway's fast lane) he basically makes it very difficult for Crawley to get at Cruz.
RE: I'm actually..  
Matt M. : 9/19/2016 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13131196 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
OK with guys having a turnover when they are trying to make plays. Cruz probably didn't sense that he'd get caught from the backside and was trying tyo juke the guy in front of him. While it is a bit careless, he's also trying to make a big play and I hope he keeps doing that.

It's funny, I actually texted Giant Mike after that play to say that Cruz looks back. The speed and moves he flashed were far more important than the fumble for me.
Do you have the same opinion if the Giants lost that game?
RE: RE: I'm actually..  
Jimmy Googs : 9/19/2016 7:13 pm : link
In comment 13131226 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 13131196 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


OK with guys having a turnover when they are trying to make plays. Cruz probably didn't sense that he'd get caught from the backside and was trying tyo juke the guy in front of him. While it is a bit careless, he's also trying to make a big play and I hope he keeps doing that.

It's funny, I actually texted Giant Mike after that play to say that Cruz looks back. The speed and moves he flashed were far more important than the fumble for me.

Do you have the same opinion if the Giants lost that game?


He's trying to actually help win the game and got sloppy and they took advantage. Sometimes the other guys make plays too you know.

Don't look at each good and bad effort play and say that was the difference in the game because it seldom is.

Cruz also took a contested throw from Eli and turned it into a huge play. That throw could have easily been picked off. So did Eli almost lose the game for us?
If the Giants lost the game..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 7:21 pm : link
I'm probably focusing on a 4th quarter play that was more pivotal. In the grand scheme of things, that turnover wasn't a bad one. It pinned the Saints in their own territory and I don't think it led to points.

Like I said above, I want to see players try to make plays. People killed Collins for losing the INT against NE last year, but I'll take guys trying to make the crucial play instead of otherwise. Will it bite us in the ass every now and then? Yep. It also will result in a lot of positives too.
I never blamed Collins ...  
Manny in CA : 9/19/2016 7:51 pm : link

For dropping that INT; he was trying his damnest to try to hold on to the ball.

What I blamed him for was letting people run away from him (too easy) and being open to receive passes all day long. At Alabama he was just a thumper (and when he had cover responsibilities, he was exposed).

I guess it didn't matter, there because the system took care of that. Here, he's had to learn how to play real safety. To his credit, he looks very good, so far - which makes me very happy.
Tye held up  
WillieYoung : 9/19/2016 8:27 pm : link
I certainly thought he could have made the block. if he doesn't leaved his feet, penalty unlikely but he didn't want to mess up big play as Cruz was by.
tye didn't need to lay him out  
SirYesSir : 9/19/2016 8:28 pm : link
just get in his way a little...box him out like charles oakley. do SOMETHING to help the team.

of course cruz was reckless, but the op is correct
Tye..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 8:30 pm : link
did get in his way. The defender went out of bounds to avoid him and circled back to make the play. Great hustle play and Tye avoids having a long run wiped out.
RE: Tye..  
section125 : 9/19/2016 8:35 pm : link
In comment 13131387 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
did get in his way. The defender went out of bounds to avoid him and circled back to make the play. Great hustle play and Tye avoids having a long run wiped out.


Thought it was a penalty to voluntarily leave the field and not immediately return?
I think only...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 8:56 pm : link
as a gunner that applies. Could be wrong though.
Cruz had already made the big play  
fkap : 9/19/2016 8:59 pm : link
he was careless with the football.

how do you figure he didn't think he'd get caught from behind? that defender wasn't that far back and he was slowing to juke, or take on a defender from the front.

It was flat out boneheaded holding of the football, and inexcusable. juke all you want, but having complete control of the ball is priority one. it is always priority one.
You guys make it sound like..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/19/2016 9:23 pm : link
players have a complete awareness of who is near them while running full speed trying to find an avenue to the end zone.

Carrying the ball like that is careless, but what's with the "inexcuseable" shit? I think I saw at least 5 plays yesterday where players fumbled after making a move in the open field. It happens a lot. A lot of nitpicking over a guy trying to make a huge play.
I agree  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/19/2016 9:25 pm : link
it's part of the game. He needs to work harder at securing the ball but it will happen again. He's a play maker
RE: bingo jlukes  
snumber6 : 9/19/2016 9:28 pm : link
In comment 13131098 ECham said:
Quote:
Tye is worried about a block in the back


I can agree ... but a crackback block was totally impossible at that point in the play ...
...  
Rick5 : 9/19/2016 9:33 pm : link
In comment 13131196 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

It's funny, I actually texted Giant Mike after that play to say that Cruz looks back. The speed and moves he flashed were far more important than the fumble for me.

I thought the same thing. He looked like the Cruz of old on that play. Very encouraging.
I saw that play and I still believe  
Elite Mobster #32 : 9/19/2016 10:13 pm : link
Tye should have made a better attempt to shield or block on that play.

Cruz also got too "Happy" on the run and, lost focus on his surroundings.
Fats  
fkap : 9/20/2016 7:48 am : link
absolutely, Cruz should have been aware of the guy who caused the fumble. Cruz had just ran by him. If (overall in such a situation) Cruz didn't know he was in traffic and should have been securing the ball, he needs some retraining. It's basic football 101. Now, I can allow that it's only been 2 games after missing a couple of seasons so maybe he's not used to practicing the fundamentals, but any NFL player should have been aware. It's ok to admit the guy fucked up in his handling of the ball.
can't hold the ball like a loaf of bread.  
Victor in CT : 9/20/2016 8:27 am : link
fortunately it didn't cost them. As a team, they have to be more surehanded, both receiving and protecting the ball while running.
RE: I think only...  
section125 : 9/20/2016 8:45 am : link
In comment 13131445 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
as a gunner that applies. Could be wrong though.


I googled it and found non-cited sources saying that you cannot run out of bounds to avoid a block and then re-enter and make a tackle. But I have not found the NFL Rule. I'm certain the rule exists, but it comes down to immediately return and leaving the field to avoid a block....Should ask Raanan...
RE: RE: I think only...  
section125 : 9/20/2016 8:49 am : link
In comment 13131946 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13131445 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


as a gunner that applies. Could be wrong though.



I googled it and found non-cited sources saying that you cannot run out of bounds to avoid a block and then re-enter and make a tackle. But I have not found the NFL Rule. I'm certain the rule exists, but it comes down to immediately return and leaving the field to avoid a block....Should ask Raanan...


Well watched the video and he was only out for two steps and it really didn't look like Tye influenced the play anyway, more that Hawley's (SP) momentum took him there.

Never mind
The guys will probably be reminded this week  
Randy in CT : 9/20/2016 9:10 am : link
of the 3 points of contact. (Is that what its called?)
After watching the video again I disagree with the OP  
cnewk : 9/20/2016 9:32 am : link
This is a case where one picture doesn't really tell the story. Here is a series of screen shots of the play.



You can see Crawley has the angle on Cruz as Tye comes into the picture. Tye sets up for the block, and Crawley is forced to change direction to avoid Tye and reaches his hand out in vain as Cruz runs by. Tye didn't decide not to block him, Crawley went around his block. You are right, though, that if Tye had been about a foot closer to the sideline Crawley probably would not have been able to get back in the play later.

With the crack-back block rules and an emphasis on player safety, this is a tough block to make without drawing a penalty. He also has to make sure that as he is running to set up for the block he doesn't get too close to Cruz and force him out of bounds. It is unfortunate he couldn't have done a little more, but it was not lack of effort or a poor decision. He just wasn't able to get in the best position to make the play.
As I have mentioned before, point all blame on passing plays to  
Jimmy Googs : 9/20/2016 10:19 am : link
Rueben Randle...
We've talked elsewhere about adjustments Cruz might need to make...  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/20/2016 10:27 am : link
...as an older receiver recovering from a devastating injury. We've focused mostly on the need to secure the catch before making his move upfield. Closely related is the need to protect the ball while running in the open field. These things were always important; but I think they are more important now, because VC has probably lost a half-step and the probability of him taking any given catch to the house - or of making a given tackler miss or beating him to an angle - is correspondingly lower. So the risk-reward ratio on playing the game the way he did in 2011 has shifted.

It's not a black-and-white thing, obviously, and I'm not suggesting that Victor Cruz should reinvent himself as Steve Smith. But the Giants can't afford for him to have many more days like the first 58 minutes on Sunday. And the game-winning play he ultimately made wasn't really an old-fashioned VC catch anyway. It was more reminiscent of Nicks (highly contested) or Manningham (deep down the sideline).
RE: We've talked elsewhere about adjustments Cruz might need to make...  
section125 : 9/20/2016 10:41 am : link
In comment 13132159 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
...as an older receiver recovering from a devastating injury. We've focused mostly on the need to secure the catch before making his move upfield. Closely related is the need to protect the ball while running in the open field. These things were always important; but I think they are more important now, because VC has probably lost a half-step and the probability of him taking any given catch to the house - or of making a given tackler miss or beating him to an angle - is correspondingly lower. So the risk-reward ratio on playing the game the way he did in 2011 has shifted.

It's not a black-and-white thing, obviously, and I'm not suggesting that Victor Cruz should reinvent himself as Steve Smith. But the Giants can't afford for him to have many more days like the first 58 minutes on Sunday. And the game-winning play he ultimately made wasn't really an old-fashioned VC catch anyway. It was more reminiscent of Nicks (highly contested) or Manningham (deep down the sideline).


BBB I think more than anything else he needs to remember what was once natural. He was careless with the ball on the entire run - it was flying all over. That will now likely not happen again as it will subconsciously be remembered when he is running. It is little nuances that were natural before the injury that two years of inactivity he has lost and only playing time will recall.

I think after watching him run that he didn't lose a (half) step. He was never a burner. Rarely did he ever run away from anyone. He is likely the same speed as most DBs save a few, so once he gets one or two steps he's not going to get caught from behind.

That was his 1st big run and catch of the year and it was sloppy - like he was trying to hard - too many gyrations instead of just going.
It was an unfortunate and a bit unlucky of a play  
cnewk : 9/20/2016 11:11 am : link
Hopefully Cruz secures the ball a little better in the future, but WRs typically are looser with the ball than RBs. I remember Plax holding on to the ball with one hand waving it around while trying to avoid defenders. I hated seeing the fumble, but he looked good on the run avoiding defenders and getting upfield. I don't think that type of tackle will happen often, and I don't think ball security is going to be a big issue for him. Honestly you want your WRs running as fast as they can making moves as quickly as they can. They are usually in the open field with only a couple defenders around them. He should have had the ball secured a little better, but you definitely don't want him running with 2 hands on the ball in that situation. You want him trying to score a touchdown.
good stuff: on the oob  
ColHowPepper : 9/20/2016 1:05 pm : link
by Crawley, watching the replay during the game and seeing Crawley come back in, I remember thinking he can't be first to make that tackle, if that is the rule, but then the replay showed, as I recall, that the other DB made contact with Cruz before Crawley did and after he re-entered the field of play.
It looks like Tye,  
Doomster : 9/20/2016 1:15 pm : link
had double vision and whiffed on both...

as others have said  
mort christenson : 9/20/2016 10:33 pm : link
the issue isn't a block in the back. It's a blindside block.


NFL instructional video - ( New Window )
The angle Tye would have needed to take  
eclipz928 : 9/20/2016 11:15 pm : link
to complete that block legally would have had him colliding with Cruz. There really wasn't anything he could do.

The reason why Cruz fumbled is because he was unaware of the defender - Cruz probably thought he went flying further out of bounds with his momentum, but the DB actually made a pretty athletic play and kept up his pursuit even after he initially missed the tackle.
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