For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
If you support our system, why on Earth would you be so opposed? Do you think that speech should be suspended for sports organizations? Do you believe speech should be suspended for any organization, group, or individual?
For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
of your stance on this issue, the NFL has a real problem on its hands. People will start turning away from the game. It is not inevitable that the NFL grows and thrives.
And I can spend my money wherever the fuck I want. Free speech doesn't entitle you to an audience, nor does it protect you from the wrath of your employer if your speech pisses off their customers and your CBA permits punitive sanction.
perhaps before or after the Anthem. This way people don't even have the chance to see it as disrespectful of the flag, or country, but as making a statement about unacceptable violence against minorities by some police...and by the too-prevalent lack of consequences for such behavior. Even something like forming a large circle as a team during the Anthem would work for me...and no one (at least no rational person) would see that as disrespectful of the flag.
RE: RE: RE: I really hope they decide against it. Â
For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
Please, continue your outrage towards the protest of an inanimate object. It's not like actual real human beings are being shot and killed by those they are sworn to protect and serve.
Also, please list the forms of acceptable protest so those who are outraged don't do anything to bother you.
we have more protests like we did in Baltimore and other cities it will be more than the NFl that has a problem.We are going in thw wrong direction in this country.Headed back to the 60's....and that isn't good for anyone.
but not standing during the anthem is a terrible way to bring people around to your cause. All you're doing is alienating folks who might otherwise sympathize with what you're protesting.
For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
Are you suggesting that the Tulsa police are NOT symbols of our country?
That they're just local enforcement officials separate and distinct from the United States of America?
And by virtue of association, the same can be said for the men and women (including my nephew) who are proud to serve in local police forces in every town across America?
And not be reminded that people they have never met and will never encounter in inner cities are being serially executed in shocking numbers. It's a lot of people's "get away" and the ugliness is not something they want. Guess what? It's an ugly world, people have opinions, young black men are being murdered in cold blood by other black men and by the police. I'd be more inclined to bring attention to 500 murders in Chicago than cherry picking newsworthy incidents but how many of us here are black? How many of us know what it feels like to feel watched and monitored because of your skin color?
Half of my nieces and nephews are mixed race children and all have been subject to racism and prejudice at different points. TO know WHY these men are doing this, you have to have their perspective and 99.9% of us simply don't. If it starts an unpleasant conversation that's ok, this country was founded on those very ideals that the status quo was no longer working and someone had to take action. Rich famous black men are making their voices heard and it makes white america very nervous and very annoyed because they just want to see their teams play and not be reminded of things they will never live or see.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
That's a strange post for the owner of a site that prohibits political commentary.
RDJR... It is what it is. There are people all over social media who say they are boycotting the NFL right now. Whether they are or not I cannot say. But it's out there.
You combine this with many of Goodell's decisions, the cost of going to games, constant commercial breaks, and now politics entering an area where most people try to escape from the real world and I personally don't think this bodes well.
In Tulsa that was homicide. That is a bad situation.
But the connection to the flag and the anthem is stupid. It is not a song about white cops.
Why don't the players take 10% of their salary and start a non profit to educate youth who will one day become our law enforcement and citizens? Ten percent of 155 million is 15.5 million dollars. The Giants alone can set up a chapter in every major city in the US.
Basically what I am saying is that protesting doesn't do shit without positive action. It comes across as hollow. Like "Yeah man I feel your struggle" as they drive their land rovers to their mansions in Summit.it's not authentic.
NFL viewership is down double digit percentages
bradshaw44 : 8:41 pm : link : reply
The first couple weeks per PFT. At least the prime time games anyway. If you don't like it then hit them where it counts.
Viewership is down from people watching on TV. Which has been a trend for a while with the huge number of people that are ripping up their cable bills. These numbers aren't tracking the folks streaming on ESPN's app, Gamepass US or International, or illegal streams from what I read.
of your stance on this issue, the NFL has a real problem on its hands. People will start turning away from the game. It is not inevitable that the NFL grows and thrives.
I don't think people will stop watching football because some players engage in nonviolent protest during the national anthem
If John Gruden doesn't keep me from watching a football game, then a bunch of guys kneeling during the anthem sure won't either. Pretty sure there isn't anything which is gonna get between me and my NFL.
Just putting it out there...
The right of LEOs to mow down innocents has few constituents Â
The acknowledgement that these are much rarer than these protests suggest and that the backlash (taking cops out of shitty neighborhoods) probably has caused and will continue to cause more black deaths than these questionable shootings, that has a larger one. Not downplaying misconduct or the affront to dignity caused by minor but more frequent misconduct, but this is an exercise in confirmation bias above all else.
NFL viewership is down double digit percentages
bradshaw44 : 8:41 pm : link : reply
The first couple weeks per PFT. At least the prime time games anyway. If you don't like it then hit them where it counts.
Viewership is down from people watching on TV. Which has been a trend for a while with the huge number of people that are ripping up their cable bills. These numbers aren't tracking the folks streaming on ESPN's app, Gamepass US or International, or illegal streams from what I read.
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
ThatLimerickGuy : 8:47 pm : link : reply
Why don't the players take 10% of their salary and start a non profit to educate youth who will one day become our law enforcement and citizens?
To be fair, when it came out that while Cap was starting this whole deal he was also donating a large chunk of money to specific causes, anyone who was upset about the anthem didn't seem to give a shit about anything else he was doing. Same with another player but I can't remember which one.
I just DVR the game and start watching about an hour or so later Â
9/11 hit America hard, but the impact it had on NYC was devastating. That day and the weeks following people of all colors helped everyone. This just feels like a step backwards. Why can't these guys, all of them, black and white, all come together and actually do something to unite people? I cant for the life of me figure out why that's so hard.
They are using their fame to lazily send a message when they can do so much more. It's already proven that people listen, so why not take this to an actionable level?
BTW there is no way they do a team wide protest... Â
bradshaw44 : 8:53 pm : link : reply
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
The drop caused by cord cutters is a locked in fact that has been happening and will continue to happen. Any drop in viewership from someone possibly upset about a player kneeling is just guessing, though I'm sure there have been some casual fans who have lost interest.
...I typically stay as far away as possible from BBI threads like this one, and this will be my last post by simply saying that you both make very important points.
Doesn't a very possibility exist that the Tulsa officer is charged? Â
I'd think that the right time to protest would be if/when the officer is not held accountable (assuming the evidence leads us to believe she's guilty).
bradshaw44 : 8:53 pm : link : reply
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
The drop caused by cord cutters is a locked in fact that has been happening and will continue to happen. Any drop in viewership from someone possibly upset about a player kneeling is just guessing, though I'm sure there have been some casual fans who have lost interest.
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
UConn4523 : 8:55 pm : link : reply
They are using their fame to lazily send a message when they can do so much more. It's already proven that people listen, so why not take this to an actionable level?
I'm still not sure what I think about using football and the anthem as the venue for this but according to the posted article it does seem like just doing a lazy gesture isn't what they want at all.
Quote:
“A couple of the guys on the team have talked about it (in the past),” Robinson said. “We want to do it appropriately and effectively if we do it. We don’t want to do it in a dishonorable manner or a disrespectful way. We want to make sure our point gets across if we do do it. That’s what a couple of guys have talked about. We don’t want to do it just to be doing it. If we’re going to do it, people need to know why we’re doing it and that needs to not be taken lightly.”
No one is going to stop watching football over this.
Those of you that would be angry if the players made a protest - did you also show your anger when it was revealed that the NFL was charging our armed forces for the annual pretend patriotic support our troops bullshit?
I'll never understand people taking personal offense over someone holding a different opinion.
The players, while on the sideline wearing their uniforms being paid to represent the Giants and the NFL are NOT free to express an opinion that may be detrimental to the team or the league. This is not their free time. They are on the clock. If half of the fans decide to boycott the NFL or the Giants due to the players' actions, then this is conduct detrimental to the team which is absolutely written into every players' contract.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season.
lets not make this a distraction. for me its about football. stand and respect the anthem then after football start a foundation or do something else to raise awareness
People are not rushing home to watch Eagles and Bears Â
give you one anecdotal example. As the temps drop, our neighbors, my wife, and I will have an evening fire outside with beer and wine. The whole NFC East is represented there... Eagles, Giants, Cowboys, and Redskins fans. The diehard Cowboys fan told me how proud he was of the Giants for making a statement as a team. (This was before other teams aside from the 49ers began this). He said if this spread, he would be watching a lot less football. Everyone there was in agreement.
these are employees in an entertainment endeavor. I don't have the right to tell them what to think, but when a significant part of their audience consists of people who take umbrage at such things, or at the very least tune in to sports as a distraction from more serious things, I have the right to change the channel if they don't deliver. That is arguably an infringement on their "free speech" (distinct from an infringement on their rights) but it is no different than me expecting the teenager behind the counter at BK not to be wearing a "Fuck the police" shirt when he takes my order.
you have to consider how large the fan base is of those who aren't die hard fans. If you think those people won't bail then I don't know what to tell you. Not everyone is plays fantasy and spends time on their teams message board. If people feel like politics are entering an arena they don't want it to, or if an agenda is being pushed that they don't agree with, they will bail.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
bradshaw44 : 8:58 pm : link : reply
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
RE: People are not rushing home to watch Eagles and Bears Â
This victim didn't obey the police commands and walked over to his vehicle.
PCP was found in his vehicle, PCP
The officer who shot him is a a drug recondition specialist. She said he was under the influence.
The other officer tazed him.
Did she over react? Yes I believe the Tazer should have been used.
I have seeing people on PCP in the ER I can tell you they are rage machines and can do mortal damage. I am shocked the Tazer and the shots took him down. I think she overreacted. Let a court decide her fate.
Now what this has to do with crapping on your countries Anthem I do not get. Go to Tulsa and protest its your right.
I would absolutely support dropping the anthem. It's a strange, creepy, and unnecessary custom.
Agreed. It makes me a little uncomfortable and I'm not sure what it has to do with sports. IT's like watching a movie in Thailand and seeing a video glorifying the King before the movie starts.
RE: The right of LEOs to mow down innocents has few constituents Â
The acknowledgement that these are much rarer than these protests suggest and that the backlash (taking cops out of shitty neighborhoods) probably has caused and will continue to cause more black deaths than these questionable shootings, that has a larger one. Not downplaying misconduct or the affront to dignity caused by minor but more frequent misconduct, but this is an exercise in confirmation bias above all else.
Body count is secondary to who is doing the shooting. I would rather the intense focus be where the most lives can be saved and the players could make a difference there. How many black people were killed by cops versus drugs versus inner city shootings. Feelings should not drive which lives are saved.
No one is going to stop watching football over this.
Those of you that would be angry if the players made a protest - did you also show your anger when it was revealed that the NFL was charging our armed forces for the annual pretend patriotic support our troops bullshit?
I'll never understand people taking personal offense over someone holding a different opinion.
I completely disagree. People are already stopping and it will only continue. This isn't just people taking offense to another opinion either. Many Americans fell strongly about the flag and what they think it stands for. You may not, and that's fine, but it's incredibly ignorant to think people are just offended by a different opinion, rather than the disrespect they think is being displayed.
In comment 13133269 EricJ said:
[quote] The players, while on the sideline wearing their uniforms being paid to represent the Giants and the NFL are NOT free to express an opinion that may be detrimental to the team or the league. This is not their free time. They are on the clock. If half of the fans decide to boycott the NFL or the Giants due to the players' actions, then this is conduct detrimental to the team which is absolutely written into every players' contract.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season. [/quote
Your premise is correct, however, it is up to the employer to enforce whatever employment policy they may have regarding the speech. So far, as far as we know, no NFL teams have sanctioned an employee for protesting.
bradshaw44 : 9:04 pm : link : reply
Yet the Colts and Jets was 11% higher last year?
1. That's about the % of people cutting the cord every year at this point.
2. Remember what I mentioned earlier that from what I read these numbers are NOT tracking the ton of people who watched the game online, on their phone, on their tablet, on shitty stream feed websites, etc etc etc. More people stream than ever before so these numbers are becoming less reliable until they find a better way to track.
I guarantee you this: if the NFL's profit margins are impacted by this in the slightest way, it will stop immediately. That is the only driver of any action.
And I'll believe that people will stop watching when I see it. This is a league where one of the teams is named something that many fans consider to be an openly racist nickname, and that hasn't stopped anyone from watching. I don't think this will either.
Instead a lot of people will feel like they're protesting the protest by drinking a can of piss with "America" written on the side of it. Shit it wouldn't surprise me if Budweiser paid Kaepernick to start this issue.
RE: RE: The right of LEOs to mow down innocents has few constituents Â
The acknowledgement that these are much rarer than these protests suggest and that the backlash (taking cops out of shitty neighborhoods) probably has caused and will continue to cause more black deaths than these questionable shootings, that has a larger one. Not downplaying misconduct or the affront to dignity caused by minor but more frequent misconduct, but this is an exercise in confirmation bias above all else.
Body count is secondary to who is doing the shooting. I would rather the intense focus be where the most lives can be saved and the players could make a difference there. How many black people were killed by cops versus drugs versus inner city shootings. Feelings should not drive which lives are saved.
And that's a place where these players can (and often do) have the greatest impact. Many come out of these neighborhoods or neighborhoods like them, they're inspirational to a generation of kids who want to do the same thing. It doesn't mean you don't focus on police misconduct, but the wider issue of violence is not unrelated and it's a place where they can do some amazing things.
you have to consider how large the fan base is of those who aren't die hard fans. If you think those people won't bail then I don't know what to tell you. Not everyone is plays fantasy and spends time on their teams message board. If people feel like politics are entering an arena they don't want it to, or if an agenda is being pushed that they don't agree with, they will bail.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
I can promise you this and I am absolutely serious. As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
you have to consider how large the fan base is of those who aren't die hard fans. If you think those people won't bail then I don't know what to tell you. Not everyone is plays fantasy and spends time on their teams message board. If people feel like politics are entering an arena they don't want it to, or if an agenda is being pushed that they don't agree with, they will bail.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
I can promise you this and I am absolutely serious. As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
give you one anecdotal example. As the temps drop, our neighbors, my wife, and I will have an evening fire outside with beer and wine. The whole NFC East is represented there... Eagles, Giants, Cowboys, and Redskins fans. The diehard Cowboys fan told me how proud he was of the Giants for making a statement as a team. (This was before other teams aside from the 49ers began this). He said if this spread, he would be watching a lot less football. Everyone there was in agreement.
or tuning in to see a Brady-less Patriots team. Plus, who knows, the drop in ratings could tie in to having a watered down product too.
Yet the Colts and Jets was 11% higher last year?
Colts actually had high expectations going in. A game that headlines Andrew Luck probably is a higher draw than a game featuring Wentz (who isn't quite a household name yet) and Cutler. 11% is quite substantial, but I have a hard time believing that drop is mostly driven by fans protesting players' protests.
and prime time football requires a substantial time commitment (and often extra payment for a plan that includes NFLN) for what is often shitty football. You can't fathom that anger over these protests might shave off a significant number of casual or marginal fans? Or that aggrieved fans who might tune in to watch their favorite team might not cut down watching extra games?
An actual protests from a season ticket holder would be to not attend the game and not sell the tickets, so the seats well actually be empty and the secondary profits not reaped by the team.
That will get the league's attention before the 4 pm games kick off.
You almost seem offended that people may turn away from the game. You may be right and nothing would come of it, but when it comes to national pride I can absolutely see a group of people turning away from the game. How big? Who knows, but the risk is very real and the NFL is in a slippery slope. How bad does it get for them if they ban there protests? Are they labeled because of it?
I don't think there's much the NFL can do, if they take away the players ability to sit for the flag, he backlash would be unreal.
RE: Doesn't a very possibility exist that the Tulsa officer is charged? Â
I'd think that the right time to protest would be if/when the officer is not held accountable (assuming the evidence leads us to believe she's guilty).
That would be the right time, but emotion is a much more powerful force than reason.
It looked like a bad shoot, probably the only thing that could help is audio with a direct threat from Terance. Without that there is no reason to believe he was pulling a weapon. Of course an unarmed man on PCP could be a deadly threat, but not at that range.
The incident probably had more to do with someone on PCP not complying, which made a cop who was not equipped to deal with the situation, nervous-than race. The race baiters are out already. "He looks like a bad man". There is zero evidence that was a racist comment and grasping at straws, plus the helicopter pilot said it and not the one who shot. He also looked like a big man in the video ignoring a few guns and a taser.
People are acting like the NFL is this sacred game that Â
in ticket sales, including the Giants. But they make a shitload of money selling broadcast rights, their business model as regards television is already outdated, a significant decline in viewership would be a huge problem for the league.
As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
This is just wrong. Sure someone will buy them that's already a viewer. Losing a viewer is losing revenue. This reaction is real and costly to the NFL. Just because a current viewer buys them it doesn't create a new viewer.
And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
This is just wrong. Sure someone will buy them that's already a viewer. Losing a viewer is losing revenue. This reaction is real and costly to the NFL. Just because a current viewer buys them it doesn't create a new viewer.
Until someone can quantify these speculative fearmongering threats of exodus, I have a hard time accepting that people will stop watching in any number that represents a real threat to NFL profitability.
And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
Assuming the Giants and/or the CBA has a conduct policy regarding political speech that is enforceacble under these circumstances, what do you believe would be an appropriate sanction for a player that silently does not stand for the National Anthem?
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
Assuming the Giants and/or the CBA has a conduct policy regarding political speech that is enforceacble under these circumstances, what do you believe would be an appropriate sanction for a player that silently does not stand for the National Anthem?
tends to amplify voices of extremists who may boycott the nfl but logically most fans are not going to stop attending or watching games (at bars at homes or on their phones) because a number of players are protesting
If the nfl survived the lockouts of the past they will survive this too
As I see it, when you protest by "disparaging the flag" as you put it, you're exercising the very right that you and I served for in the spirit of the founding fathers who themselves "disparaged" the flag of their nation before crafting ours.
bradshaw44 : 8:58 pm : link : reply
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
I've been streaming games for at least the past six years. It has to do with cord-cutting, availability, and the myriad options available...definitely not political statements.
then the sportswriters, many of whom are sympathetic to the protests, will skewer them for it, a substantial percentage of their players and their alums are African American and they have to respect their opinions, and plus if they hit it hard enough publicly they'll contend with threats of boycott from the other side. They're between a rock and a hard place.
RE: This is what some of you don't understand... Â
The players, while on the sideline wearing their uniforms being paid to represent the Giants and the NFL are NOT free to express an opinion that may be detrimental to the team or the league. This is not their free time. They are on the clock. If half of the fans decide to boycott the NFL or the Giants due to the players' actions, then this is conduct detrimental to the team which is absolutely written into every players' contract.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season.
I see it the same way.
RE: Some of you have ridiculed my eariler comment. Â
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
This is incredibly reactionary, and has nothing much to do with the subject.
underestimating the common, non-die hard fan. These are the people the NFL is worried about losing, not season ticket holders. The boom in women watching the NFL, what if even a fraction of that went away?
The NFL will survive and get past this, but to think some people won't stop watching is incredibly naive. People stopped watching various sports for far less.
bradshaw44 : 8:58 pm : link : reply
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
I've been streaming games for at least the past six years. It has to do with cord-cutting, availability, and the myriad options available...definitely not political statements.
In the LA market, I've been used to getting Giants games pretty regularly in the past. Now that the Rams are in town, Giants games will get blocked out on FOX, so I'm likely going to be streaming most Giants games. I wonder if anyone here actually knows any real people that are outright protesting the NFL.
underestimating the common, non-die hard fan. These are the people the NFL is worried about losing, not season ticket holders. The boom in women watching the NFL, what if even a fraction of that went away?
The NFL will survive and get past this, but to think some people won't stop watching is incredibly naive. People stopped watching various sports for far less.
We're also fans of a team from NY/NJ. The average take on this issue may be quite different for fans of teams from elsewhere.
I'd love to see that one. If these guys wanted to have their voice heard they could simply pool their money together and purchase a time slot on a major tv network (shit. Even the NFL netwrok) and have a 2 hour circle jerk one night to try and get their point across.
RE: RE: Some of you have ridiculed my eariler comment. Â
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
This is incredibly reactionary, and has nothing much to do with the subject.
UConn - I'm not offended by anyone potentially turning away from the game; I'm offended by bullshit. There have been many more compelling reasons than this to stop watching football, and the ratings just keep going up. The indignation over these gestures rings incredibly hollow and you can't help but smirk and roll your eyes.
RDJR - I don't think any punishment is appropriate for a player refusing to acknowledge the anthem. I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about kneeling during the anthem. I think it's far more disrespectful to what this country stands for to try to compel someone else to do something so trivial against their will.
People watch football: loyalty to a team, gambling, fantasy, family tradition, tailgating, friends/community, entertainment where does the national anthem rank? I would venture to say it is not a top 10 factor in determining whether someone is going to watch
UConn - I'm not offended by anyone potentially turning away from the game; I'm offended by bullshit. There have been many more compelling reasons than this to stop watching football, and the ratings just keep going up. The indignation over these gestures rings incredibly hollow and you can't help but smirk and roll your eyes.
RDJR - I don't think any punishment is appropriate for a player refusing to acknowledge the anthem. I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about kneeling during the anthem. I think it's far more disrespectful to what this country stands for to try to compel someone else to do something so trivial against their will.
People watch football: loyalty to a team, gambling, fantasy, family tradition, tailgating, friends/community, entertainment where does the national anthem rank? I would venture to say it is not a top 10 factor in determining whether someone is going to watch
That's just nonsense. People boycotting Chik Fil'A likely wouldn't have rated sexual politics among their top ten reasons to choose a fast food joint but in that time and place it mattered to them enough to impact their decisions. For folks with loved ones in law enforcement or the military or for whom this is a bigger deal than it is to you, you're talking about impacting choices between entertainment/down time options. And it wouldn't take a huge number to have a discernible impact in ratings.
For the purpose of ethical protest of the blatantly unjust (I.e. killing an unarmed pasture for no good reason other than improper training and screening for L.E.O.s which consequently gives the good cops a bad name.
I don't deprive the kids if they want something, but I stopped attending games, stopped buying merchandise, stopped buying gamepass/etc.
That started with Michael Vick's reinstatement, and the NFL and the players seem to find new ways to get me to spend less of my money. At this point, about the last thing they'll lose with me is my viewership, which probably wouldn't happen due to something like this, but combined with all the other nonsense (rule changes promoting scoring, fining players for celebrations, etc.), you never know.
For the players who choose to protest - I don't know what affect it has on others, but I roundly ignore it. I don't see a stance for a cause, I see attention seeking. If they wanted to raise awareness, they've already got a platform as NFL players. Social media is everywhere. Work positively, trying to raise awareness about these incidents, try to spur positive change in one way or another, whether to try to legalize drugs to eliminate some of the mindless incarceration we have going on, or start educational programs to get people above the poverty level, or if you're going directly at LE, push for more transparent conduct reviews of law enforcement and steeper penalties for offenders.
Kneeling down during the national anthem won't accomplish much, and could just drive a greater wedge in the racial divide. Try and use the game of football that draws a wide demographic as an example of things we share, and work from there for positive change.
there's only so much viewership they can get. Sooner or later it will decline for one reason or another, why not now? Doesn't matter if you think it's stupid or a dumb reason to stop watching. There also he compound effect. My neighbor last year stopped watching the NFL all together after the 700th domestic abuse issue came to light. Maybe more fans, myself included, stopped watching most games and just watch the team we root far. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that some of those people have yet another reason to walk away. Again, not every viewer is a die hard football fan, many out targeted don't give two shits about who wins or loses these games.
I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
People watch football: loyalty to a team, gambling, fantasy, family tradition, tailgating, friends/community, entertainment where does the national anthem rank? I would venture to say it is not a top 10 factor in determining whether someone is going to watch
That's just nonsense. People boycotting Chik Fil'A likely wouldn't have rated sexual politics among their top ten reasons to choose a fast food joint but in that time and place it mattered to them enough to impact their decisions. For folks with loved ones in law enforcement or the military or for whom this is a bigger deal than it is to you, you're talking about impacting choices between entertainment/down time options. And it wouldn't take a huge number to have a discernible impact in ratings.
Chick Fil A has much greater competition in the fast food industry than the nfl does for entertainment options on Sunday/Monday/Thursday's from September to February. Time will tell how much of a ratings hit there will be but when push comes to shove I'm putting my money on a low to negligible impact
about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
In more than one instance, some of the same people huffing about sacred free speech posted this cartoon when the speech in question was less to their liking:
I agree that the NFL will go on and will survive even if those who are pissed about these boycotts also boycott the games. I also agree that as angry as some may be over this, they may not stop going to the games.
HOWEVER, if these annoyed fans still went to the games but refused to spend any money at the concessions, THEN you would see the NFL or individual teams stop this. I would guess that people are split down the middle on this issue. If half of the season ticket holders went to the game and brought a sandwich with them then just watch what would happen.
the NFL isn't just competing with sports, they are competing with prime time shows during those timeslots. There's infinite amounts of content out here for people to consume, it doesn't have to be a 1:1 ratio of sports. I'd rather watch a movie or an episode of great TV over that shitty game last night, for example.
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
Wrong. Men are privileged. White people are privileged. I am a white man. I don't have to worry when I walk home after dark. I don't have to worry if the police pull me over. It is not that all cops are bad, but the sh!t women and minorities put up with has to stop. I have three kids...never once had to lecture them on how to behave with the police or wonder when they come home late, are they dead...but every African American mom or dad that I know confronts these things every day.
The playing field is not level. If you pretend it is level, you are making it even less so.
How about this. We can say the justice system is fair. You are a criminal laywer.
RE: I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
David, he has made a statement about ALL cops. He even wore socks portraying cops as pigs.
We would all agree that not every minority is a criminal (at least I hope you feel that way) yet cops can all be portrayed as evil or bad? That IS what he is saying.
about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
college and hs games don't occur on Sunday. Deer hunting has high barriers to entry as an option. Netflix is a more recent alternative. I'll agree to disagree on the elasticity of demand for nfl football which I feel is pretty in elastic. I actually think the boycotts would be louder and more prominent if the nfl fined the protesting players
In more than one instance, some of the same people huffing about sacred free speech posted this cartoon when the speech in question was less to their liking:
who are dying in greater numbers from heroin than they are from natural causes, who suffered or suffer from DV and substance abuse in their daily lives, whose job prospects are shit, and who are constantly pulled over because their vehicles are pieces of shit. Lecture them about white privilege.
Some of you have ridiculed my eariler comment.
FatHeadTommy : 9:35 pm : link : reply
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
college and hs games don't occur on Sunday. Deer hunting has high barriers to entry as an option. Netflix is a more recent alternative. I'll agree to disagree on the elasticity of demand for nfl football which I feel is pretty in elastic. I actually think the boycotts would be louder and more prominent if the nfl fined the protesting players
Honey do lists are elastic. It's an allocation of leisure time, not just about what sorts of contemporaneous entertainment are available.
RE: I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
Freedom of speech. Individual rights. That's all I have to say. Go Giants. The only thing this could change for me, is me taking a piss and drinking a beer during the anthem instead of listening to the announcers wax stupidly over the topic. Freedom of Speech - ( New Window )
who are dying in greater numbers from heroin than they are from natural causes, who suffered or suffer from DV and substance abuse in their daily lives, whose job prospects are shit, and who are constantly pulled over because their vehicles are pieces of shit. Lecture them about white privilege.
You're smarter then that. White privilege isn't disproven at all by what you just posted.
"Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie."
I don't agree with that. I'm a Giants fan. That's completely removed from whether I want to go to a play or a movie. Not to compare us to soccer fans in Europe, but it's somewhat more like that, than it is like plays or movies. There's actually no connection or cross-elasticity at all for me between watching Giants games and watching plays or movies. Zero.
who are dying in greater numbers from heroin than they are from natural causes, who suffered or suffer from DV and substance abuse in their daily lives, whose job prospects are shit, and who are constantly pulled over because their vehicles are pieces of shit. Lecture them about white privilege.
You're smarter then that. White privilege isn't disproven at all by what you just posted.
The conflation of privilege based on class and privilege based on skin is pretty rampant. Again, not to suggest that African Americans don't face acts of racism small and large, just to suggest that it is still better to be comfortable or affluent and black than struggling and white.
who are dying in greater numbers from heroin than they are from natural causes, who suffered or suffer from DV and substance abuse in their daily lives, whose job prospects are shit, and who are constantly pulled over because their vehicles are pieces of shit. Lecture them about white privilege.
And there is a very long list of white people killed by police under the same kinds of highly questionable circumstances. I've posted about many of them right here. They simply aren't stories that fit the media narrative, so they don't get national coverage.
RE: RE: I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
and athletes in general was I root for laundry. I rarely if ever waver from this. It's the only way I can truly allow myself to 100% get behind a sports team. Otherwise, I find I'm setting myself up for drawing a moral line then forcing myself to erase it and move it when I need to.
So, I found I previously lot my emotions get the better of me. While I would never intentionally do something disrespectful to the flag, the Nation Anthem or the Country in general, the President (not to go off on a tangent but I always felt like I am respectful to the President regardless of if I voted for he (or eventually maybe she) or not. It always seemed to me the right thing to do and how I was raised.)
However in being consistent with my own "code" I have changed my stance here, I don't care what these players do, any of them. Until that opening kick-off and then once there are 00's on the scoreboard in the 4th Q I don't care once again.
Their rights to do it were never in question for me. But the appropriateness was and the effectiveness, and I don't know, maybe it still is, and I am not clear how it gets their point more sympathetic, but I no longer care what anyone does during the National Anthem or if they cancel it completely.
I'm just going to worry about myself and my own morals/beliefs/respect.
RE: RE: RE: Which again shows what little you know... Â
about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
college and hs games don't occur on Sunday. Deer hunting has high barriers to entry as an option. Netflix is a more recent alternative. I'll agree to disagree on the elasticity of demand for nfl football which I feel is pretty in elastic. I actually think the boycotts would be louder and more prominent if the nfl fined the protesting players
Honey do lists are elastic. It's an allocation of leisure time, not just about what sorts of contemporaneous entertainment are available.
I don't think people who used to watch football will boycott it in favour of house projects. People watch football to escape and connect. And Greg the fact that you need a license a gun and presumably some training is indeed a barrier to entry for some. Not to mention a weird hobby and one that is very different than watching football.
Are you merely an American living in Canada, or are you actually a Canadian? Because if you are Canadian, I'd suggest you stop making assumptions on a subject on which you clearly are completely unfamiliar.
Just to make the point in the most simplistic, trite way - what are some of the most football-crazy part of the US? Texas. Western Pennsylvania. Wisconsin. All areas in which hunting is very, very popular.
My guess is the vast majority of those opposed to the players ... Â
... exercising their right to free speech are the same ones that invoke the second amendment the minute someone suggests we need to seriously think about the availability and fire power of assault weapons. Just checking.
Are you merely an American living in Canada, or are you actually a Canadian? Because if you are Canadian, I'd suggest you stop making assumptions on a subject on which you clearly are completely unfamiliar.
Lol. The irony in this post.
RE: RE: RE: I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
shared by a great many NFL viewers. I think the NFL's marketing people are smart enough not to share your elitist disdain for those whose priorities are different from your own, or at least are smart enough to overlook them.
It's not rocket science. You have leaves to rake and a lawn to mow. You can do so on Saturday, when Big State is playing a conference rival, or you can do so on Sunday, when your hometown team is playing out of conference. You can hunt on Saturday and mow on Sunday, or you can mow on Saturday and watch football on Sunday. You can make the wife happy and watch DWTS in hopes of getting lucky on Thursday, or you can watch the Browns square off against the Bills.
Like Del most of us are a good deal more involved, which is why we're on a football fan forum. But not everyone is that involved, and for some of the ones who are an anti-LEO or, in perception, anti-American protest during said leisure time could be enough to make 'em less so.
Amazing how scared the owners are to stand up to this Â
... exercising their right to free speech are the same ones that invoke the second amendment the minute someone suggests we need to seriously think about the availability and fire power of assault weapons. Just checking.
Perhaps you can figure out the difference between a right to be free from government intrusion and the ability to say something wearing your company's uniform without consequences.
He can't possibly understand hunting because he may (or may not) be from Canada? A country with massive tracts of uninhabited land that millions of people hunt on?
I think that shows more reverence than putting a hand over your heart?
The first few times CK didn't even get off the bench and sat there. That to me was extremely disrespectful. But, going down on 1 knee shows respect ... with a bit of a caveat. I don't see a problem with that.
And due to that country's restrictive gun laws, they DO face much more in the way of barriers to hunting. Perhaps there are similarly restrictive laws for licensure. I wouldn't know, I'm not Canadian. As such, I don't make the assumptions Les is making with his preposterous statement that it's a "weird hobby"
but it's a very poor time to be trying to make a point. Not standing for the National Anthem is very disrespectful and is not making their point except how ignorant they are to the meaning of the National Anthem and our Flag. Nobody is denying their ability to protest, however their method and timing are unacceptable. Take time after the game to gather in the middle of the field, like some often do, to do a prayer together or find another moment before or after the game or better yet, volunteer your time to talk with community organizations about your concerns. This type of protest is doing nothing but potentially disrupting team chemistry. I think the NFL Office needs to take a stand like they do for uniform violations and personal conduct on the field. They're on the clock during game time!
RE: RE: My guess is the vast majority of those opposed to the players ... Â
... exercising their right to free speech are the same ones that invoke the second amendment the minute someone suggests we need to seriously think about the availability and fire power of assault weapons. Just checking.
Perhaps you can figure out the difference between a right to be free from government intrusion and the ability to say something wearing your company's uniform without consequences.
debunk the narrative that police are disproportionately shooting unarmed black men and that BLM/protests are actually hurting the black community due to the "Ferguson Effect". Stats are from university studies, DOJ, Federal dbase and Washington Post homicide data base.
perhaps before or after the Anthem. This way people don't even have the chance to see it as disrespectful of the flag, or country, but as making a statement about unacceptable violence against minorities by some police...and by the too-prevalent lack of consequences for such behavior. Even something like forming a large circle as a team during the Anthem would work for me...and no one (at least no rational person) would see that as disrespectful of the flag.
Just reading through. Great post. I think there is still a problem with how minorities are not treated equally, and I think it is appropriate to stand for our national anthem. Is that still ok? We need more reasons to come together as a nation, not be further seperated. I agree something should be done, and I understand this helped move the conversation forward, but I think there is a better way to get the message across to more people to help see actual change.
when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
A difference by getting in these communities and teaching people to work with the police and not this snitches get stitches attitude. People will protect killers, rapist, and drug dealers but the police are the biggest problem I guess.
I love all the people on this thread acting like all people all over the country think exactly like they do. Bottom line the NFL is big business, do you really think they don't have a room full of professionals analyzing which would have more backlash, letting the players protest or punishing them for doing it while "on the job". The bottom line is they will continue to allow them to protest because there would be a far greater reaction/boycott if these players were punished then not. Will some people be put off yes, but don't think they haven't done the math.
In Les' defense, I've been to Toronto many times. Anything aside from putting on skinny jeans and covering yourself in awful perfume to go out for a night at the opera is considered "weird hobbies" for men. It's the most "metro" place on the planet.
... exercising their right to free speech are the same ones that invoke the second amendment the minute someone suggests we need to seriously think about the availability and fire power of assault weapons. Just checking.
wouldnt the specific comp in this case be bringing (and, I suppose, using) a gun to an NFL game? Are you suggesting that someone should really do that?
RE: There's a lot of people who are just full of it Â
when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
Thanks pj, I was trying to write the same thing. Nobody is squeamish on the topic. It has to stop.
When you think about it, you really do have to give CK a lot of credit Â
Took something completely disconnected from his issue, in the the anthem has zero to do with police action or minorities, or crime, and actually created enough of a stir so that people somehow think there's a relationship. It's seriously not a bad tactic.
RE: The NFL should instruct the telecasts to not show the players Â
when you are dealing with a business that has been given boatloads of privileges, exemptions and a de facto monopoly. It's not a business like any other business. So the rules are not as obvious.
I applaud these men who recognize that they have the benefit of unbelievable privilege and feel driven to somehow acknowledge a scourge affecting their community.
I think the challenge is to come up with a way of calling attention to the issue in a way that is not disrespectful to other aspects of the symbolism (the anthem as a time to remember the sacrifices of the military, first responders etc.) Personally until someone comes up with something better, I think Carlos and Smith's Olympic gesture may be the best answer.
I think the teams could reasonably ask those who.... Â
but it's a very poor time to be trying to make a point. Not standing for the National Anthem is very disrespectful and is not making their point except how ignorant they are to the meaning of the National Anthem and our Flag. Nobody is denying their ability to protest, however their method and timing are unacceptable. Take time after the game to gather in the middle of the field, like some often do, to do a prayer together or find another moment before or after the game or better yet, volunteer your time to talk with community organizations about your concerns. This type of protest is doing nothing but potentially disrupting team chemistry. I think the NFL Office needs to take a stand like they do for uniform violations and personal conduct on the field. They're on the clock during game time!
How is it disrupting teams chemistry? We are seeing entire teams band together in protest or the opposite.
They said they want to do it respectfully and I hope they do. But it's their opinions/lives, they can do what they want and I can judge them for it based on how it makes me feel.
I prefer athletes who take stands versus those who don't, even when I disagree. (Lol at Carl Everett not believing in dinosaurs, for instance, but he had the balls to say that in Sports Illustrated.)
I think the point you're making is one of the fundamental disconnects in our society. I know many well-educated, well-to-do black people and they swear they have it worse than the poor whites you describe and would rather be destitute and white. Similarly, the poor whites you describe swear that well-to-do black people get an unfair advantage.
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
In comment 13133557 Greg from LI said:
How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
You're both being serious? Try referring the cartoon that you yourself posted. I'll help you (since you seem to need it) by highlighting the relevant portion:
>>>> <<<<
--
ESPN is not the government. They have every right to can their employees (within the parameters of signed contracts) if they don't like what they say or do. Has exactly zero to do with "Free Speech." Ditto Niners and/or NFL for Kaepernick.
Your attempts to pigeonhole this into a left/right debate (cause, get it? Hank Williams and Curt Schilling are conservatives....you guys get it? Their "free speech" doesn't matter to you!) are bizarre. I'm trying to come up with the motivation but am mildly distracted by the stark and ongoing misunderstanding of the 1st amendment.
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
Riots in Charlotte over a police shooting that happened at 4pm Â
Police say guy got out of car with gun and presented deadly threat, shot and killed him and recovered gun.
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
RE: RE: I wish this level of outrage over someone kneeling for 2 minutes Â
Police say guy got out of car with gun and presented deadly threat, shot and killed him and recovered gun.
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
LOL as if those are the *only* documented cases of bias happening via the police. What a joke.
It's literally happened to me, and my dad, on separate occasions. and I'm not even black. Did I imagine it?
Obviously I didn't die, but you can't cherry pick certain things (while ignoring many other well documented cases. Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, John Crawford - I hate that I can name these off the top of my head).... you can't cherry pick certain things and act like those are the only problems. People being treated differently by police, whether it's something as permanent and horrific as murder or something as simple as a difference in sentencing, force being used unequally, or hell just messing with people in general should NOT be tolerated. i'm an American citizen, I want to be treated as equally as some other groups of people.
It's not just OMFG COPS KILL PPL11
So again, it's happened to me, so get the fuck outta here with your bullshit.
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
This is horseshit and a complete fallacy. The niners released a very public letter stating that it was not any statement on their behalf and have suffered literally zero backlash due tot his - it's all been on Kapernick.
Disagree with what you want but don't make shit up
1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
This is horseshit and a complete fallacy. The niners released a very public letter stating that it was not any statement on their behalf and have suffered literally zero backlash due tot his - it's all been on Kapernick.
Disagree with what you want but don't make shit up
I assume you're responding to the comment above mine, not mine....
Obviously I didn't die, but you can't cherry pick certain things (while ignoring many other well documented cases. Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, John Crawford - I hate that I can name these off the top of my head).... you can't cherry pick certain things and act like those are the only problems. People being treated differently by police, whether it's something as permanent and horrific as murder or something as simple as a difference in sentencing, force being used unequally, or hell just messing with people in general should NOT be tolerated. i'm an American citizen, I want to be treated as equally as some other groups of people.
It's not just OMFG COPS KILL PPL11
So again, it's happened to me, so get the fuck outta here with your bullshit.
The only time I've ever had a cop pull a gun on me was when I was in a car with 3 black/latino people (I'm white). We did nothing wrong and didn't even get a ticket. Easy for me to let go, but I don't have to feel anxious whenever I see a cop like some of my friends do.
Yet at the same time there are tons of great, wonderful cops. Hard problem to solve, this one. Talking about it is good, which is why I think Kaep has added something of value. He put himself out there, which I greatly respect.
People using the means at their disposal (BBI) to make a point Â
Upset because players are using the means at their disposal to make a point.
Every suggestion I've seen here on how they should protest differently involves a platform that next to nobody will see. After practice? On their own time? All opportunities to protest away from our eyes, where we can choose to ignore it if we want. And many of us to.
But you're right. They are at work, and some of us probably have jobs that prohibit political expressions at the workplace. If we do that, we would risk reprimand, a fine, or getting fired. These players technically face those same risks, although I doubt any team wants to be the first one to take that step.
My biggest problem with this is those who respond, "Your job is to play football." When people say that, I hear, "Shut up and entertain me." I know we turn to sports for escape, but that's a fantasy. Things are beyond fucked up right now.
I love this country. I salute the lives risked and lost to help ensure our freedom. But that freedom gives up the opportunity to make ourselves heard, but voting for who we want, and by standing up and saying, "Hey, this is wrong."
I don't like players disrespecting the flag. I don't like people burning the flag. But I also respect the freedom for people to take a stand, even when they feel that is the necessary action. I respect the right of people to do this without being arrested or having their entire family executed in retaliation.
I will watch on Sunday. I will watch the anthem and think about the battles our millitary has fought to keep us free. I will acknowledge the struggles people still face for true freedom. And then I will sit down to watch some football and cheer for my team. All of them.
...they can pretty much do what they like during the Anthem. I'll be in the kitchen making sandwiches anyway.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
...they can pretty much do what they like during the Anthem. I'll be in the kitchen making sandwiches anyway.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
...they can pretty much do what they like during the Anthem. I'll be in the kitchen making sandwiches anyway.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
Those are instances of an employer firing an employee on their own accord. The Niners front office said they were ok with CK's protest. Schilling's a replaceable ESPN talking head, and Hank Williams is a musician whose comments were too big of a distraction for the network to want to keep anyways. I'm all for their free speech, but the the cons of what they did in terms of public perception outweighed their value to their respective employers.
...they can pretty much do what they like during the Anthem. I'll be in the kitchen making sandwiches anyway.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
Truth bomb.
There is no evidence that race was a factor in this. Â
Even though the race hustlers are out and they want blood, not justice.
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
I think alot of folks on this site have to consider why they are doing it and not some antiquated view of 'respect' for the flag that not everyone shares in the same way. I don't think there is one protester that has ANY issue with those who served in the military. They are instead making a political point about an issue near and dear to their community whether you agree with that point or not is almost irrelevant since they are exercising their constitutional right to express their opinion, an opinion shared widely within the African American community. You don't need to agree but it would be worth the time to understand and listen.
1) I don't 100% agree with Kaepernick, but I do agree with his rights to voice them
2) I do 100% understand the first amendment and that it doesn't protect him from the 49ers or the league. But it does protect him from the government punishing him for these actions and that is what I applaud.
3) I don't believe all the police shootings and murders have been acts of racism. But, they are mostly acts of excessive force and violence, which are problems regardless of race of victims or police. I do think some cases are muddled enough to not criticize the officers under normal circumstances. However, they occurred while other events unfolded and that is why they have drawn their own scrutiny. More troubling is that almost across the board officers aren't even getting indicted. In most cases, I think, the facts are muddled enough that a trial is not an unreasonable expectation. In most, I think there is still enough information to aquit, but that doesn't mean you there wasn't enough for a trial and for the prosecution to have the opportunity to collect more facts and at least build and present a case.
4) in my view, the retaliation of violence against police is an equally terrible travesty. If I were protesting, this is part of what I would be protesting against. In the simplest form, I believe in all lives mastering and we have a serious need to end lethal violence period.
5) To that end, I also have a problem with excessive force being used, again regardless of race or which side. So far, most of these cases have shown police to not have been in grave danger whether the victims were armed or unarmed. But, firing 30 times to kill ignores that.
6) It is also important to realize whether or not the victims were criminals is not relevant. It is a defense of the police questioning them and attempting to take them into custody. However, it does not make every police action defensible.ikewise, the actions of a handful of individual officers does not make every violent protest, hatred etc. defensible either.
7) Lastly if a team or the league asked for this form of protest to cease, it is 100% within their rights. However, I think the players have done enough, so far, not to overly politicize this protest and not to use inflammatory or hateful language, so that kind of action does seem excessive.
8) I view this as a protest not against America, but instead against a hotbed problem in America that is addressable. I don't think this is done out of hatred for the country, but out of love for a country while recognizing a serious problem.
And due to that country's restrictive gun laws, they DO face much more in the way of barriers to hunting. Perhaps there are similarly restrictive laws for licensure. I wouldn't know, I'm not Canadian. As such, I don't make the assumptions Les is making with his preposterous statement that it's a "weird hobby"
I am biased being from a big city that I do think killing deer for sport is a weird way to spend leisure time. You aren't getting much of a workout and you are killing animals for sport under the guise of population control.
While I don't doubt there is some overlap between deer hunting hobbyists and football fans I don't think most would be do passionate about this issue that they will suddenly go deer hunting on Sundays. I actually think the casual fan base is small relative to passionate loyal fans
. I suspect a good chunk of those tweeting boycottnfl will still tune in as the pull is too strong.
If there were a heavy handed attempt to stop them, some players would boycott the games and perhaps some fans join the protests. The league really, really doesn't want to up the stakes to that level imo.
Imagine a league-wide no protest rule and Jennings leading a 5 or 6 Giant player boycott on game day.
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
That's a strange post for the owner of a site that prohibits political commentary.
What's so strange about it, and what does it have to do with the site's stance on political commentary? He's making an observation and forming an opinion about it. He could be right or wrong, but it's an opinion.
RE: It's crazy to see how many people on this forum can fail Â
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
How many people who compain about players kneeling during the national anthem out down the nachos and beer and roll outta the couch to stand for the national anthem at home? Or is it only a meaningful symbolic gesture t stand for the national anthem when other people can see you?
Or donate time and money to help wounded soldiers when they get home The real disrespect is the way many veterans are treated when they return
By people and the government itself.
And if someone peacefully protesting keeps you from watching the game when every game features a number of players on each team who are bad people. Wife beaters, dead beat fathers, drug dealers have strange priorities
Beating your wife is okay. I'll still support you.
Saying "hey this country might have some issues" makes your a terrorist.
How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
Those are instances of an employer firing an employee on their own accord. The Niners front office said they were ok with CK's protest. Schilling's a replaceable ESPN talking head, and Hank Williams is a musician whose comments were too big of a distraction for the network to want to keep anyways. I'm all for their free speech, but the the cons of what they did in terms of public perception outweighed their value to their respective employers.
And if the Niners did cut him? Would you be so passive? Curt Schilling is a schmuck and I'm not particularly fond of Hank Jr's politics, but the rub of it is you don't have an issue with their dismissal because you don't agree with them.
Btw-they're football players who provide entertainment. Many of which Â
are not nor should be life role models in the eyes of fans.
Their protests (to me at least) carry as much weight as self-righteous statements made by Hollywood actors and actresses the moment they get a chance to get in front of a podium at the Oscars.
of two men, one barely an adult and the other still relatively young, killed in a shooting at a community event in DC. People impacted by the event ask "where were the police?" That's the rub of this. The unwillingness to accept nuance, this fiction that young black men are at greater threat of lethal violence from the police than they are from violent men in their own communities, that's the most unfortunate piece of this. Because the end result of this "conversation" might be fewer young black men dead at the hands of the police (debatable, as it has undoubtedly poisoned the relationships between individuals in at-risk communities) but it will almost certainly be more young black men dead. And the fact that they'll die in relative anonymity will not make their deaths sting any less for those who love and care for them.
As for the specific character of the protests, for a variety of reasons I have no desire to listen to someone who thinks that the best way to get attention is to burn, stomp, mistreat or otherwise intentionally disrespect the flag. If you think the society it represents is fundamentally flawed, work to fix it. Link - ( New Window )
Old Glory during the National Anthem not the players. Show a wide angle shot of the whole stadium. These men want a stage don't give it to them.
Why don't they deserve a stage??? They play on a stage every god damned Sunday. They play with risk of life long injury. They are allowed to use their freedom of speech as they deem fit. I have several friends in he military and all but one of them feel that they fight to preserve our freedoms, which includes the right for people to protest.
RE: RE: There's a lot of people who are just full of it Â
when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
"But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness."---- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT AREN'T YOU????
Police say guy got out of car with gun and presented deadly threat, shot and killed him and recovered gun.
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
What a pure example of jackassery... Kaep is kneeling, peacefully. If seeing someone kneel inspires you to go hurt someone then you need to check yourself into a mental institution.
RE: This article addresses the fatal shootings... Â
As for the specific character of the protests, for a variety of reasons I have no desire to listen to someone who thinks that the best way to get attention is to burn, stomp, mistreat or otherwise intentionally disrespect the flag
...they can pretty much do what they like during the Anthem. I'll be in the kitchen making sandwiches anyway.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
+1
I don't have any opinion on the subject either way. The players can stand on their head and I wouldn't have noticed it without the media jamming it down my throat. My only slight opinion is that I'm watching football for football, and not for politics, so the over analysis of this topic during the broadcast is getting tiresome.
This "blacks killing blacks" counterpoint is such a red herring. Â
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
I agree. I never really understood the black on black crime counterpoint. Both are awful, both need to get cleaned up.
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
RE: RE: RE: There's a lot of people who are just full of it Â
when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
"But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness."---- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT AREN'T YOU????
I was talking about it every time it happens. who isn't? Every time there's another incident I brace for the impact.
Not that I'm not sensitive to the victims and their families, of course I am, I'm human, but the rush to judgment is never quicker in this country than when a police officer is involved in a fatality and it's even quicker when it's a black victim.
What does this change? I don't view it as unifying, I view it as divisive.
I believe the majority feel this way (they already wish violence by police and especially any racially motivated violence were simply to end) and the ones who don't aren't changing their mind now that Colin Kaepernick didn't stand for the National Anthem. I believe they still view the messenger as the object not the message, since it's sort of a misplaced protest IMO.
It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
Duned, I support the police. This is a huge problem and I don't think we need to keep qualifying statements when so many cops are using deadly force in error.
to see what happens in the Charlotte situation. There are a lot of conflicting details on the shooting. One report has the guy sitting in his car reading a book when he was shot and the police are saying he charged an officer.
The local news coverage was a disgrace last night though. The NBC station interviewed two people - one a guy that was yelling "He was killed by a Cracker. The white devils are out to get us".(I'll see if I can find that footage) And a lady who complained that the blacks were being targeted by white officers pleading "They are killing our brothers".
One point of note - and apparently it is minor - the officer who shot the man is black.
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
Duned, I support the police. This is a huge problem and I don't think we need to keep qualifying statements when so many cops are using deadly force in error.
But it's not "so many." Use of lethal force remains relatively rare and use of force where it isn't obvious to just about everyone that the use was justified is rarer still. The questionable instances are, however, being aggregated by social media for the first time. Look, one is too many and it doesn't mean we shouldn't work to address it. But let's be realistic about the scope of the problem.
Play the Anthem all you want on your own time, too, then
This. It's just a mundane football game. Television, inebriated fans and beer commercials. No reason to drench it in holy national symbolism. The Red, White & Bluegasm that has become Goodell's NFL profanes the meaning of those symbols.
Play the Anthem all you want on your own time, too, then
Well that makes no sense. What about a moment of silence? We can do that on our own time too, but are you cool with people talking for 10 seconds if there's a moment of silence?
It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
"No one." What newspapers are you reading? What social media are you following? And how, pray tell, are you going to prevent volatile situations from turning lethal without limiting their occurrence?
This. It's just a mundane football game. Television, inebriated fans and beer commercials. No reason to drench it in holy national symbolism. The Red, White & Bluegasm that has become Goodell's NFL profanes the meaning of those symbols.
And this I actually agree with. I've said repeatedly that I don't know why they still play it at every game. That's a different discussion, though.
These players are super-well paid athletes and these self-grandizing individuals spit in the face of "all" citizens who include righteous Police Officers, Firefighters, Military Personnel and others to promote their own agenda's! Fuck the NFL!
It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
"No one." What newspapers are you reading? What social media are you following? And how, pray tell, are you going to prevent volatile situations from turning lethal without limiting their occurrence?
You know what I mean.
Don't be obtuse.
The stated goals of BLM do not include minimizing police presence. Don't lump the fringe in with the movement.
In comment 13133907 Greg from LI said:
[quote] Are we going to include the laundry list of leftist bullshit that's also a part of their "stated goals"? [/quote
Why not?
One is not forced to agree with all points to support the larger cause.
RE: RE: It's crazy to see how many people on this forum can fail Â
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
but it's a very poor time to be trying to make a point. Not standing for the National Anthem is very disrespectful and is not making their point except how ignorant they are to the meaning of the National Anthem and our Flag. Nobody is denying their ability to protest, however their method and timing are unacceptable. Take time after the game to gather in the middle of the field, like some often do, to do a prayer together or find another moment before or after the game or better yet, volunteer your time to talk with community organizations about your concerns. This type of protest is doing nothing but potentially disrupting team chemistry. I think the NFL Office needs to take a stand like they do for uniform violations and personal conduct on the field. They're on the clock during game time!
How is it disrupting teams chemistry? We are seeing entire teams band together in protest or the opposite.
Because there's still players like Pugh who feel the opposite and feel it's disrespectful. To me it could create animosity.
RE: RE: RE: It's crazy to see how many people on this forum can fail Â
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's crazy to see how many people on this forum can fail Â
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
I have had nothing but positive experiences with various interactions with police officers throughout my life. I don't hate the police. That doesn't mean that I can't see and understand a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also don't believe this is a new pandemic in america, it is just easier to see due to the ability to capture it on video. When I referenced the situation above, it was about the specific officers in that situation, so don't draw an assumption that I carry that over to all police officers in the US. The lady that pulled the trigger had no value for his life.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It's crazy to see how many people on this forum can fail Â
to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
I have had nothing but positive experiences with various interactions with police officers throughout my life. I don't hate the police. That doesn't mean that I can't see and understand a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also don't believe this is a new pandemic in america, it is just easier to see due to the ability to capture it on video. When I referenced the situation above, it was about the specific officers in that situation, so don't draw an assumption that I carry that over to all police officers in the US. The lady that pulled the trigger had no value for his life.
So I assume that you don't wear cops are pig socks. That is the main evidence for me that K is an asshole (in addition to the Castro shirt). I really can't get real excited or "outraged" about these actions before games. Human nature told me that this would spread as it will to other sports.
Given yesterday?? RIGHT time for such a protest and in a league with an African American majority who ironically play for a majority of white owners and a majority of white fans - it IS the right place for such a protest as well.
BLACK LIVES MATTER TOO.
And thank you for just making the protest during a 2 minute song while I'm getting a beer.
Get on with the game.
RE: There is no evidence that race was a factor in this. Â
Even though the race hustlers are out and they want blood, not justice.
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
Not a racism issue, though of course some cops are racist....they are Â
But it is a "perceived racism issue" based on how people feel about it. Rational thought and analysis do not matter anymore. And how many people are really spending the time to really research and understand all angles ? Almost none, as usual.
I find it hard to support anything that stinks of the BLM lies and vitriol and accepted excuses for people who are breaking the law and forcing cops to deal with potential outcomes that involves death and ruined lives all around
But there is a serious problem with some of these incidents and a few bad apples/scared trigger-happy cops/poor training/outright disregard for sanctity of life are creating a horrible situation.
I think a lot of the protests are misguided and do not line up with the data, relative high-quality of police and low amount of corruption vs. other countries, but I can understand why people are outraged.
One video of one (or a few incidents) is enough to really get people outraged. There are no easy answers.
That's a strange post for the owner of a site that prohibits political commentary.
Actually, it's pretty in line with his policy here. He thinks the politics will take away from BBI, just like he thinks the politics will take away from gameday.
Free speech is their right, and they have every right to send a message if they feel it's appropriate. America didn't become what it is by settling for the status quo.
They're not hurting anybody. In fact, we all complained after Furgeson that the protests were unacceptable because they turned violent and hurt the cause. Now people are (literally as) peacefully as possible protesting the status quo, and we take issue with that. You can't have it both ways.
They aren't protesting America, and I don't understand how anyone could have that rudimentary analysis of all this.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Since there is no conceivable circumstance where it would be appropriate to shoot an unarmed person, why don't you join the force and show 'em how it's done?
Or are we engaging in confirmation bias and drawing wide-ranging conclusions based on a small number of ostensibly egregious examples?
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
And ass wipes like this criticize peaceful protestors. Go jump off a bridge
RE: There is no evidence that race was a factor in this. Â
Even though the race hustlers are out and they want blood, not justice.
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
You're right. Everyone who has drugs in their system should be shot on sight, without a trial. Fuck yeah, freedom and liberty!
What the fuck would it take for you to understand that race plays a role in a situation? Would it take a cop saying "hey, I need to shoot a black guy"?
We all know your MO and we all know that you bend over backwards to piss and desecrate on the graves of dead people to push your own agenda and justify your own worldviews. You should be in the olympics because you are a hell of a mental gymnist.
We took in a terrorist alive in NJ, but yeah, fuck this black guy, he deserved to die. He played his own hand in his death by doing drugs, amirite?
Get the fuck out of here. As usual, madcow and giants24 just turning up the ignorance and justification up to 11.
The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
The difference is that you are intelligent enough to see the forest and not the trees, while MANY people use "black on black violence" as a justification or talking point-esque counterpoint/distraction + justification.
C'mon man, you know that "black on black violence" has become a go-to meme-ish retort to people who speak about police behavior against black people.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
The guy in Tulsa was resisting arrest?
Is an individual black person responsible for the actions of strangers who simply happen to have the same color of his skin? Answer it.
Are you saying black people deserve it? Answer it.
What a disgusting fucking post. Why don't you just come out and say that those blacks deserve what they get. That's what your post is trying to state while beating around the bush.
The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
JFC, again with this "they arrested a terrorist alive!" bullshit Â
He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Since there is no conceivable circumstance where it would be appropriate to shoot an unarmed person, why don't you join the force and show 'em how it's done?
Or are we engaging in confirmation bias and drawing wide-ranging conclusions based on a small number of ostensibly egregious examples?
Pretty sure I've already completed my civic duty.
It doesn't take much to recognize that shooting unarmed people is wrong. Well, apparently it does, when you have educated people defending it.
So is acting like an ass, getting called out for it, and then trying to buy as much good will as you can afford.
For me, this case was closed the moment Kap said that there was no difference between the American Flag and the Confederate Flag, and then opined about oppression while wearing a Fidel Castro t-shirt. The cops-as-pigs socks were just the icing on the cake.
As a Giants fan, I will support the players no matter what they do, but I would prefer that they show respect for the flag and the national anthem. Again, for me, the fact that you're not required by law to stand for it is precisely the reason why you should.
Why wouldn't people be hyper-emotional about violence against minorities, specifically blacks, given the history in America?
Dollars to donuts, there would be (and given past threads, there is) a hyper-emotional response to violence against people of the Jewish faith living in Europe. Which has been on the rise.
What started out as a D-list QB making a political statement possibly to distract from the fact that he’s making $19M sitting on the bench, has morphed into a look at me movement that will only make things worse. There are horrible things happening in this country and all over the world. Protesting or demonstrating during the Anthem isn’t going to stop innocent people from dying at the hands of careless, reckless, or racist police. It’s certainly not going to stop innocent people from dying at the hands of violent criminals, drug addicts, or the mentally ill who may not even know what they do. It will not protect our US Citizens from radicals that want to see the very fabric of our nation torn apart. Yes, it is a player’s right to sit, or take a knee. But, protesting the Anthem will only divide us further and shine a light on people whose motivations to demonstrate will likely be misrepresented or misunderstood. It will further divide. It will only distract. I have always been proud that my New York Football Giants are classy organization that has always, for the most part, been a picture about what is right in professional sports. If you want to fight the good fight against racism, inequality, or any other social injustice… Do it in the community. Do it on the radio. Do it in the offseason. Don’t do it on the football field. Don’t do it at work. Without that Flag and what it represents, people wouldn’t be able to enjoy a celebrity life playing professional sports. That’s why the Anthem plays before every game. The issues in this country are front and center. Watching football is an escape for many people from the awful realities that everyone should be outraged about. Seeing our beloved Giants standing unified amidst these polarizing times in our Nation will do more good to bring people together. When you wear the New York Football Giants uniform, wear it with pride. Stand together. Win together. United… Team… That is being part of the solution to these issues. Anything else will only end up being noise, contributing to the divisiveness that has become problem in this country.
RE: Well I guess this thread will be deleted soon Â
The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
Why don't you answer the questions I posed to you in my previous post instead of deflecting?
Are you saying black people deserve to be treated differently by police because they are black? If you didn't say that, what did you mean?
He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a pure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
and when the violence is by a black police officer, as in Charlotte Â
or an Asian cop as in Minnesota, then what exactly does American history have to do with anything?
Drawing a linear comparison between police brutality and Muslim attacks on Jews is comparing apples to aardvarks.
It's like an argument I had a while back when a bunch of white trustafarians blocked rush hour traffic on I-64 in Richmond purportedly for "BLM" - when you are deliberately antagonistic in your protest, you're more of a problem than a solution. Taking a broad issue and narrowing it down for suspect reasons doesn't do anything constructive.
And, again, the day I listen to any railing against oppression from a motherfucker wearing a Fidel Castro shirt is the day I gargle with razor blades.
pose a lethal danger to officers and to others. Pretending otherwise is dumbshit armchair quarterbacking. That is not to say that in every or even most instances the use of lethal force in such circumstances is appropriate (first blush look at Tulsa certainly doesn't look to be) but it is to say that it is easy for people who have never been in those situations or tried to empathize with officers confronted with them to make categorical determinations.
The point, as simply as it can be put, is that hyper emotions can and do play a role in responses when there is a significant history of dis trust, abuse, and violence.
It is actually quite disheartening to see people labeling this as being killed by the police only. There has been a lot of media about the disadvantages that the black community faces simply because of their race. This has included higher interest rates for home and auto loans.
pose a lethal danger to officers and to others. Pretending otherwise is dumbshit armchair quarterbacking. That is not to say that in every or even most instances the use of lethal force in such circumstances is appropriate (first blush look at Tulsa certainly doesn't look to be) but it is to say that it is easy for people who have never been in those situations or tried to empathize with officers confronted with them to make categorical determinations.
This is a valid point, but wouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who have never experienced difference in treatment from police officers yet still criticize those who have (or had people close to them who have) for speaking out on the issue?
A whole literature that talks about how police attitudes towards certain racial groups are biased by their peers. Meaning that wall race can play a role, it's certainly does not play the deciding roll. It is why you can still have quite significant issues with black cops shooting black civilians.
RE: RE: Well I guess this thread will be deleted soon Â
The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
Why don't you answer the questions I posed to you in my previous post instead of deflecting?
Are you saying black people deserve to be treated differently by police because they are black? If you didn't say that, what did you mean?
Of course not but cops go to where the crime is and almost half of the violent crime is centered in one community that makes up about 6% of the population (black males). This guy says it better than me. Jason Riley - African American writer for Wall Street Journal:
"In the summer of 2013, after neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman, a Hispanic, was acquitted in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, the political left wanted to have a discussion about everything except the black crime rates that lead people to view young black males with suspicion. President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder wanted to talk about gun control. The NAACP wanted to talk about racial profiling. Assorted academics and MSNBC talking heads wanted to discuss poverty, “stand-your-ground” laws, unemployment and the supposedly racist criminal justice system. But any candid debate on race and criminality in the United States must begin with the fact that blacks are responsible for an astoundingly disproportionate number of crimes, which has been the case for at least the past half a century."
“High rates of black violence in the late twentieth century are a matter of historical fact, not bigoted imagination,” wrote Mr. Stuntz. “The trends reached their peak not in the land of Jim Crow but in the more civilized North, and not in the age of segregation but in the decades that saw the rise of civil rights for African Americans — and of African American control of city governments.” The left wants to blame these outcomes on racial animus and “the system,” but blacks have long been part of running that system. Black crime and incarceration rates spiked in the 1970s and ’80s in cities such as Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Washington under black mayors and black police chiefs. Some of the most violent cities in the United States today are run by blacks."
"Black people are not shooting each other at these alarming rates in Chicago and other urban areas because of our gun laws or our drug laws or a criminal justice system that has it in for them. The problem is primarily cultural — self-destructive behaviors and attitudes all too common among the black underclass. The problem is black criminal behavior, which is one manifestation of a black pathology that ultimately stems from the breakdown of the black family. Liberals want to talk about what others should do for blacks instead of what blacks should do for themselves. But if we don’t acknowledge the cultural barriers to black progress, how can we address them? How can you even begin to fix something that almost no one wants to talk about honestly?"
He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a pure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
In which case where a suspect was taken in alive did they not comply with officers instructions and still get taken alive?
It's not victim blaming or racist (though everyone goes directly there) to say if the victims had complied (in most cases) with police officers instructions they would be alive. The social worker was one where there's just no explanation for, and I don't think he died, but it doesn't matter, that's just an unfortunate situation, maybe even racist, but just looked like an untrained officer to me.
I've heard Dylan Roof cited. Read the report. "Roof cooperated with the officer who stopped him, according to police."
If Terence Crutcher did not reach in his car do you think he would have been shot?
He didn't deserve to die, make no mistake about that, and the female officer who shot him deserves to be investigated and probably prosecuted, but he did have a way to avoid it.
It's not as cut and dry as many of you make it seem, and it very likely has zero to do with race. If am man seemingly disoriented has a car in the middle of the road, is not complying with law enforcement instructions, walks away to his car and appears to lean in to get something he's putting himself at risk.
I simply don't know how officers are supposed to respond to that. I'd assume taser at most until they see a gun, and maybe in the end that's what the officer is charged with, but what if it was a gun, and you did wait to see it, are you then dead because of it?
So, what you're telling me is that we must go by what groups Â
He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a lpure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
And in many cases just old fashion performance incompetence and/or poor training.
Generally, yes, I'd say taking the statements of protesters regarding Â
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
RE: and when the violence is by a black police officer, as in Charlotte Â
or an Asian cop as in Minnesota, then what exactly does American history have to do with anything?
Do you really not know that answer?
Are you suggesting that bias based on skin color can only be white vs black or that real (or perceived) police brutality against minorities can only count when it is perpetrated by a white officer?
That's an incredibly simplistic take, and unfortunately one that a lot of folks subscribe to.
And if that isn't the simplistic view you were espousing, what exactly don't you understand about how our history (and current events) can affect one's views of race regardless of if you're white, black, brown, yellow, or blue?
RE: Generally, yes, I'd say taking the statements of protesters regarding Â
what they're protesting is generally a rather reliable way of gauging their concerns rather than divining entirely separate issues.
Ah yes, because we all know that statements are declarative intentions, especially for large scale social and cultural movements.
Should we trust politicians when they make declarative policy goals? Or is that a rather inadequate measure.
I mean, the WHOLE of Libertarianism, from Hayek and Friedman, is predicated on a substantial set of implicit biases that make declarative statements on social and policy goals a poor measure of true outcomes.
I mean, for fuck's sake, it pervades Bastiat's Law of Unintended Â
Consequences, and plays a predominant role in any work by Hayek.
Or, as has been suggested for centuries now, declarative statements based on large-scale social or policy movements are typically condensed for consumption by an audience that is won by simplicity, rather than complexity. And that the "true" impact (in this case, the outside goal of inequality of opportunity in black America) is often not explicitly stated.
So.....the black cop was a racist against black people, Cam? Â
You do realize that humanity is a set of "us vs. them" tribes, and one of the delineations can go past race (to institutions, such as the police vs. "criminals").
RE: So.....the black cop was a racist against black people, Cam? Â
But it is absolutely possible to be biased based on skin color. You seem to be going with the opposite, no? That because it is a black officer it can't have anything to do with race or bias.
I'd venture to guess you don't interact with a whole lot of black folks if you've never had that discussion.
I'd venture that I've had a helluva lot more interaction with black Â
pose a lethal danger to officers and to others. Pretending otherwise is dumbshit armchair quarterbacking. That is not to say that in every or even most instances the use of lethal force in such circumstances is appropriate (first blush look at Tulsa certainly doesn't look to be) but it is to say that it is easy for people who have never been in those situations or tried to empathize with officers confronted with them to make categorical determinations.
This is a valid point, but wouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who have never experienced difference in treatment from police officers yet still criticize those who have (or had people close to them who have) for speaking out on the issue?
Sure. Though I don't criticize people for speaking out on the issue, and I do try to empathize with people in that circumstance (a degree of such empathy being a necessity in my particular vocation).
Disliking these particular forms of protest and asserting that the particular narrative (open season on young black males) is counterproductive fiction is not to say that the wider narrative about the poor relationship between at-risk, mostly African-American communities and law enforcement, lacks merit; statistically and in perception it certainly does have merit.
RE: I'd venture that I've had a helluva lot more interaction with black Â
with you might be, a)I'm ill-equipped to go head-to-head with you on that subject as your understanding of Hayek and Bastiat undoubtedly dwarfs mine b)I don't have the time for anything more than brief comments c)I don't believe that every single fucking thing merits being magnified to the kind of scale you're talking about.
And yes, human nature is essentially tribal. No shit, that's one of the keystones to the inherent failures in socialism. Doesn't explain why there is no shortage of white people gunned down by police under questionable circumstances, UNLESS you're arguing that the tribe in question is blue versus everyone else. That one I agree with, but I'm reasonably certain that you're not going that route.
RE: Just because others perpetuate their ignorance Â
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
RE: Well I guess this thread will be deleted soon Â
The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
LMAO you're going to claim the moral high ground now? I hope you cut yourself while cutting out eye holes in your sheets.
in any case bears any merit to the movements like BLM or maybe in general. And I'm not sure it does matter to their stance.
Based on what I've read many black people view the police as "blue" and all the same race regardless of physical appearance.
I could be wrong, this is just my perception. But in most cases of police violence where the police officer was not white it does not change the POV of the "community", and they don't say "oh, ok the police murdered an unarmed man, but the murderer was black so no big deal let's not be outraged"
most of the time with what I read it's irrelevant, law enforcement is viewed as an oppressive force.
George Zimmerman (obviously not a police officer) became white in the eyes of the social justice warriors while Colin Kaepernick remains black and they're the same whiteness.
I think oppression or injustice has no color, it's power/oppression vs the seemingly powerless.
just my impression. Hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Spend five years as an enlisted Marine and a couple more working Â
as a security guard(or something like it, but explaining would take too long), and your horizons get expanded quite a bit.
Race is a simplistic explanation to a much more wide-ranging problem, in which police-civilian confrontations are inherently dangerous and variable on the threat-assessment ability of the cop in question. Add to that the kind of overbearing, power-craving personality that pervades most police departments, the "respect mah authoritah!" mindset, and you start to get to the root of the problem, particularly when you think about the overcriminalization of the law in this country, the "three felonies a day" idea.
RE: RE: Just because others perpetuate their ignorance Â
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
RE: RE: Well I guess this thread will be deleted soon Â
The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
LMAO you're going to claim the moral high ground now? I hope you cut yourself while cutting out eye holes in your sheets.
Thanks for making my point. You are probably in the top 5 of the list of posters that can't handle an opposing view and are the cause of these threads getting deleted. You are unhinged, seek help.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
The use of the statistic was to show the reason for the large number of police Black confrontations. The underlying reason for the statistic is not what we are discussing. That would be the subject of a different thread and I would probably agree with you on there as most would.
The race of the officers is certainly relevant.. Â
not dispositive, but relevant to address the notion that this is systematic racism at work. Again, it doesn't refute it emphatically. Such systematic or structural racism certainly could "infect" African-American officers. But I think the more plausible explanation is that it speaks to potential shortcomings in training and the obstacles presented by so-called police culture as contributors to problems, an alternative or complementary explanations to one grounded largely or solely in racism.
And not be reminded that people they have never met and will never encounter in inner cities are being serially executed in shocking numbers. It's a lot of people's "get away" and the ugliness is not something they want. Guess what? It's an ugly world, people have opinions, young black men are being murdered in cold blood by other black men and by the police. I'd be more inclined to bring attention to 500 murders in Chicago than cherry picking newsworthy incidents but how many of us here are black? How many of us know what it feels like to feel watched and monitored because of your skin color?
Half of my nieces and nephews are mixed race children and all have been subject to racism and prejudice at different points. TO know WHY these men are doing this, you have to have their perspective and 99.9% of us simply don't. If it starts an unpleasant conversation that's ok, this country was founded on those very ideals that the status quo was no longer working and someone had to take action. Rich famous black men are making their voices heard and it makes white america very nervous and very annoyed because they just want to see their teams play and not be reminded of things they will never live or see.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
coming to this late, but Joey, that is my favorite of your BBI posts in 20 years. well said
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Just because others perpetuate their ignorance Â
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
The use of the statistic was to show the reason for the large number of police Black confrontations. The underlying reason for the statistic is not what we are discussing. That would be the subject of a different thread and I would probably agree with you on there as most would.
Incorrect, again.
RE: Spend five years as an enlisted Marine and a couple more working Â
as a security guard(or something like it, but explaining would take too long), and your horizons get expanded quite a bit.
Race is a simplistic explanation to a much more wide-ranging problem, in which police-civilian confrontations are inherently dangerous and variable on the threat-assessment ability of the cop in question. Add to that the kind of overbearing, power-craving personality that pervades most police departments, the "respect mah authoritah!" mindset, and you start to get to the root of the problem, particularly when you think about the overcriminalization of the law in this country, the "three felonies a day" idea.
Sure it does. If we're going to measure dicks, 22+ years in a steel foundry with ~70% black employees from all walks of life on top of my time enlisted in the army might do that too.
At least I see where you are coming from in that race isn't THE issue- but to dismiss it outright is just as wrong as claiming it as the ONLY factor.
For the most part, I agree- it's not the main issue...it is an important factor and an underlying cause (one). Again- I'm not claiming racism as a reason someone is shot...bias based on appearance certainly plays a part though...regardless of the skin color of the officer.
I'm not saying that race is never an issue. Clearly it can be, and has been. I'm saying it's hardly the Rosetta Stone of police violence, and making it the major (if not only) focus elides a lot of other equally important factors in police violence.
RE: The race of the officers is certainly relevant.. Â
not dispositive, but relevant to address the notion that this is systematic racism at work. Again, it doesn't refute it emphatically. Such systematic or structural racism certainly could "infect" African-American officers. But I think the more plausible explanation is that it speaks to potential shortcomings in training and the obstacles presented by so-called police culture as contributors to problems, an alternative or complementary explanations to one grounded largely or solely in racism.
I wasn't implying it shouldn't be relevant, I was saying based on everything I read and hear post-incident it's not generally relevant to the people who are the most vocal in their outrage and the tenets of the movement.
I agree most of the incidents seem on their surface to be more competence/preparedness related than acts of racism, but I'm also of the mindset where I don't like to try and peer into someone's heart and judge intent.
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
You just keep proving my point how you are incapable of dealing with any opposing views and deal with that by acting like a child, throwing a temper tantrum and calling others you disagree with names. Just because you don't like the facts I have brought into the discussion because they dont fit into your little narrative bubble is your shortcoming.
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
You just keep proving my point how you are incapable of dealing with any opposing views and deal with that by acting like a child, throwing a temper tantrum and calling others you disagree with names. Just because you don't like the facts I have brought into the discussion because they dont fit into your little narrative bubble is your shortcoming.
I'm sorry but trying to present yourself as some sort of deep thinker who examines all sides of something and considers the views of the "other" side is an absolute joke.
I have never, not once, seen any post from you that has an iota of empathy or understanding for what others say. You have dug your heels in and will never say anything or acknowledge anything that will challenge your worldview and opinions. It's similar to madcow. And before you say I'm wrong, let me remind you that you have the opportunity to prove it right now - say something to prove me wrong.
You're too stupid to grasp what the statistics mean Â
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Just in case this was directed at me, I wasn't even aware of a Charlotte shooting. I was speaking about Tulsa et al
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Depends on your personal slant and what you (colloquially) are predisposed to believe or want to believe.
Any time there is a police officer involved shooting with a black victim, many people will begin their opinion that race was a factor and the main factor. sometimes it is. Many times it's not, but many people don't believe it's not no matter the circumstances.
Any time there is a bombing conducted by someone with a Muslim sounding name, many people assume terrorism, however the rub is that many of the same people in the first group will urge caution before jumping to conclusions about the details of the second type of incident urging people to not make assumptions about the motive and classifying likely terrorist activities as workplace violence.
It's very obvious if you try and view things objectively from afar (not that I can any more than anyone else who tries to have an open mind), it's like the American "incident playbook" based on each person's political/social views.
personally, at a sporting event, i don't want to hear anything about politics or religion or anything else. i just want it to be about sports.
kapernick sits down, and seriously, who cares, he's allowed to. i knew the media and everyone were going to ballistic, and i was dreading that, because it would get stupid crazy. all you have to do is read the comment sections in the op-eds to realize how ignorant, emotional, and non-fact based people's opinions are.
i knew tons were going to say it was disrespecting the military and the flag and bla-bla-bla, even though his protest had nothing to do with that, it had to do with police shooting/killing/murdering blacks in disproportionate numbers. obviously, this is a major problem and needs to be solved asap.
personally, at a sporting event, i don't want to hear anything about politics or religion or anything else. i just want it to be about sports.
kapernick sits down, and seriously, who cares, he's allowed to. i knew the media and everyone were going to ballistic, and i was dreading that, because it would get stupid crazy. all you have to do is read the comment sections in the op-eds to realize how ignorant, emotional, and non-fact based people's opinions are.
i knew tons were going to say it was disrespecting the military and the flag and bla-bla-bla, even though his protest had nothing to do with that, it had to do with police shooting/killing/murdering blacks in disproportionate numbers. obviously, this is a major problem and needs to be solved asap.
i just want it to stay out of sports.
Agreed. Playing the National Anthem at sports events should be made a relic of the past.
The Charlotte shooting...
Dunedin81 : 4:29 pm : link : reply
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Right now you have the police version that a plainsclothed officer was trying to issue a warrant for the victim's arrest, and as he saw the man approach the car, he exited the vehicle with a weapon. After being given orders to freeze and after the officer identified himself as such, the man retreated to the car and again emerged with a weapon. He was then shot. There were backup officers on the scene as they knew the warrant was being issued.
Yesterday, The family's version was that the victim was innocently sitting in his car reading a book waiting for his son to get off the bus. They said every day he reads a book, waits for the son and gives him a hug. The family says there wasn't a gun.
However, the family wasn't present, so they don't know what the man was doing.
Here's what is known. The man was being issued a warrant. Police and eyewitnesses both said the man exited the vehicle. A cousin that claims he's a witness said the object in the man's hands was a book. But police found a gun and no book.
Today's tone has been a little different. Community black spokespeople have said that even if the victim had a gun, if he didn't aim it then the killing is murder and they are saying that the man lived to give his son a hug every day, hugs his son will never get again. The daughter screamed yesterday that white cops killed her Dad - today the family can't be found to give a statement. Apparently they have been in the process of being evicted for the past month.
So yesterday, we heard about a hard-working Dad who lived to see his son and who read every day waiting for him. A great man who was a friend to all. Today we find out the guy has an arrest record, was in the process of getting arrested again and that the family has been close to eviction for some time.
This is exactly why I hate people jumping to conclusions. Hell, we already have protesters holding up signs saying "It was just a book".
I don't think that there's been a news story of any sort Â
That isn't different a day, two days, or a week after it's Initially reported. People jump to conclusions and react emotionally all the time. Mainly it just goes to show that media lacks competence.
Anyone ever see that old movie, "Kill the Umpire" Â
he should stay in the locker room.
By dishonoring the National Anthem you are dishonoring
all the Americans that sacrificed their lives, limbs and mental health In WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam and the Middle East.
if you go to the V.A. and see all of the fucked-up Vets from WWII, Korea, Nam, and the Mid-East you would be shocked, They were Black, Hispanic, Native Americans and Caucasian and fought for the Flag.
A PUNK like you would last 5 minutes in East Harlem.
Yesterday, The family's version was that the victim was innocently sitting in his car reading a book waiting for his son to get off the bus. They said every day he reads a book, waits for the son and gives him a hug. The family says there wasn't a gun.
However, the family wasn't present, so they don't know what the man was doing.
Here's what is known. The man was being issued a warrant. Police and eyewitnesses both said the man exited the vehicle. A cousin that claims he's a witness said the object in the man's hands was a book. But police found a gun and no book.
NO Scott was not issued a warrant . The police were LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS ISSUED A WARRANT and thought Scott was the guy BUT THEY WERE WRONG.t
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Today's tone has been a little different. Community black spokespeople have said that even if the victim had a gun, if he didn't aim it then the killing is murder
there is zero evidence yet by the Police that in fact there was a gun. until the video is released .. it is the Police's story vs Eye witnesses who have said he always carried a book and had a book not a gun on that day.
But here is the interesting point .In North Carolina, open-carry of a handgun is legal. Concealed carry is also legal, so long as you have a permit.
Quoting a lawyer in NC “The mere possession of a handgun does not give the police probable cause or reasonable suspicion to briefly detain you for stop and frisk, The mere fact that you have a handgun isn’t enough – it’s legal in N.C"
But who tunes in to watch a protest? It's a commercial endeavor, not a soapbox. Why is the NFL obligated to give them a platform?
Where was this outrage when Tim Tebow was doing pro-life commercials during the Super Bowl? That's a hot button topic that a lot of people don't agree with Tebow on? I guess using sports as a platform to push a political agenda is okay if its in line with your beliefs. Smh.
But who tunes in to watch a protest? It's a commercial endeavor, not a soapbox. Why is the NFL obligated to give them a platform?
Where was this outrage when Tim Tebow was doing pro-life commercials during the Super Bowl? That's a hot button topic that a lot of people don't agree with Tebow on? I guess using sports as a platform to push a political agenda is okay if its in line with your beliefs. Smh.
You mean the same Tim Tebow that is out of the league despite having a winning record and is just as good if not better than most back up QB's? Yes there was controversy around that too.
Tebow is out of the league, because he is a shitty Qubes Â
Stop trying to position your argument as if Christians are persecuted left and right in this country.
The guy is a leader and won games including a playoff game on a team that Orton was not able to win with. Guy is worth at least a back up spot in the league but the media hype was too much of a distraction for his talent ability to deal with. No agenda here buddy.
Was Tebow really the main reason why Denver made the postseason when he was there? Danny Wuerfel and Ken Dorsey were awesome in college too. Must be a conspiracy why they're not in the league. Come on.
RE: You do realize football is a team sport, right? Â
Was Tebow really the main reason why Denver made the postseason when he was there? Danny Wuerfel and Ken Dorsey were awesome in college too. Must be a conspiracy why they're not in the league. Come on.
I said he was worthy of a back up spot. The guy has won everywhere including the NFL. You do realize the goal is to win and not fantasy numbers? He had had a intangible as a leader and that's why he won while guys with tons of talent like Cutler do not.
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
Not if you are a felon.
Im sure there have been others similar to Tebow talents that lasted Â
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
If you support our system, why on Earth would you be so opposed? Do you think that speech should be suspended for sports organizations? Do you believe speech should be suspended for any organization, group, or individual?
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For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
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In comment 13133204 FatHeadTommy said:
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For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
Please, continue your outrage towards the protest of an inanimate object. It's not like actual real human beings are being shot and killed by those they are sworn to protect and serve.
Also, please list the forms of acceptable protest so those who are outraged don't do anything to bother you.
There has to be better ways, IMO.
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In comment 13133204 FatHeadTommy said:
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For some of us, this will not be a good thing. I for one will be extremely disappointed and will have to make my displeasure known.
Did you see the Tulsa video and listen to the voice of the police helicopter pilot?
So protest the Tulsa police. Not the symbols of the country. You don't like the direction the country is headed? Work to change it. You don't like the country? Don't be surprised if a few million people tell you to go fuck yourselves.
Are you suggesting that the Tulsa police are NOT symbols of our country?
That they're just local enforcement officials separate and distinct from the United States of America?
And by virtue of association, the same can be said for the men and women (including my nephew) who are proud to serve in local police forces in every town across America?
Half of my nieces and nephews are mixed race children and all have been subject to racism and prejudice at different points. TO know WHY these men are doing this, you have to have their perspective and 99.9% of us simply don't. If it starts an unpleasant conversation that's ok, this country was founded on those very ideals that the status quo was no longer working and someone had to take action. Rich famous black men are making their voices heard and it makes white america very nervous and very annoyed because they just want to see their teams play and not be reminded of things they will never live or see.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
RDJR... It is what it is. There are people all over social media who say they are boycotting the NFL right now. Whether they are or not I cannot say. But it's out there.
You combine this with many of Goodell's decisions, the cost of going to games, constant commercial breaks, and now politics entering an area where most people try to escape from the real world and I personally don't think this bodes well.
But the connection to the flag and the anthem is stupid. It is not a song about white cops.
Why don't the players take 10% of their salary and start a non profit to educate youth who will one day become our law enforcement and citizens? Ten percent of 155 million is 15.5 million dollars. The Giants alone can set up a chapter in every major city in the US.
Basically what I am saying is that protesting doesn't do shit without positive action. It comes across as hollow. Like "Yeah man I feel your struggle" as they drive their land rovers to their mansions in Summit.it's not authentic.
bradshaw44 : 8:41 pm : link : reply
The first couple weeks per PFT. At least the prime time games anyway. If you don't like it then hit them where it counts.
Viewership is down from people watching on TV. Which has been a trend for a while with the huge number of people that are ripping up their cable bills. These numbers aren't tracking the folks streaming on ESPN's app, Gamepass US or International, or illegal streams from what I read.
NFL RATINGS DROPPING - ( New Window )
Just putting it out there...
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NFL viewership is down double digit percentages
bradshaw44 : 8:41 pm : link : reply
The first couple weeks per PFT. At least the prime time games anyway. If you don't like it then hit them where it counts.
Viewership is down from people watching on TV. Which has been a trend for a while with the huge number of people that are ripping up their cable bills. These numbers aren't tracking the folks streaming on ESPN's app, Gamepass US or International, or illegal streams from what I read.
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
Why don't the players take 10% of their salary and start a non profit to educate youth who will one day become our law enforcement and citizens?
To be fair, when it came out that while Cap was starting this whole deal he was also donating a large chunk of money to specific causes, anyone who was upset about the anthem didn't seem to give a shit about anything else he was doing. Same with another player but I can't remember which one.
That's my protest against those who get in the way of me watching my favorite team...
They are using their fame to lazily send a message when they can do so much more. It's already proven that people listen, so why not take this to an actionable level?
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
The drop caused by cord cutters is a locked in fact that has been happening and will continue to happen. Any drop in viewership from someone possibly upset about a player kneeling is just guessing, though I'm sure there have been some casual fans who have lost interest.
Interesting - which social media?
...I typically stay as far away as possible from BBI threads like this one, and this will be my last post by simply saying that you both make very important points.
Let's be quite honest here, the primetime matchups have been subpar.
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bradshaw44 : 8:53 pm : link : reply
The drop is caused by numerous affects. The protests are one of them. It's not exclusive to chord cutting.
The drop caused by cord cutters is a locked in fact that has been happening and will continue to happen. Any drop in viewership from someone possibly upset about a player kneeling is just guessing, though I'm sure there have been some casual fans who have lost interest.
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
They are using their fame to lazily send a message when they can do so much more. It's already proven that people listen, so why not take this to an actionable level?
I'm still not sure what I think about using football and the anthem as the venue for this but according to the posted article it does seem like just doing a lazy gesture isn't what they want at all.
You're right, let's drop the anthem.
Those of you that would be angry if the players made a protest - did you also show your anger when it was revealed that the NFL was charging our armed forces for the annual pretend patriotic support our troops bullshit?
I'll never understand people taking personal offense over someone holding a different opinion.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season.
Like it's been pointed out, people are there to watch football, not to go to some military handjob party
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about football?
You're right, let's drop the anthem.
I would absolutely support dropping the anthem. It's a strange, creepy, and unnecessary custom.
Just beer-fed talk? Possibly. I'm not so sure.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
Yet the Colts and Jets was 11% higher last year?
PCP was found in his vehicle, PCP
The officer who shot him is a a drug recondition specialist. She said he was under the influence.
The other officer tazed him.
Did she over react? Yes I believe the Tazer should have been used.
I have seeing people on PCP in the ER I can tell you they are rage machines and can do mortal damage. I am shocked the Tazer and the shots took him down. I think she overreacted. Let a court decide her fate.
Now what this has to do with crapping on your countries Anthem I do not get. Go to Tulsa and protest its your right.
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In comment 13133206 rocco8112 said:
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about football?
You're right, let's drop the anthem.
I would absolutely support dropping the anthem. It's a strange, creepy, and unnecessary custom.
Agreed. It makes me a little uncomfortable and I'm not sure what it has to do with sports. IT's like watching a movie in Thailand and seeing a video glorifying the King before the movie starts.
Body count is secondary to who is doing the shooting. I would rather the intense focus be where the most lives can be saved and the players could make a difference there. How many black people were killed by cops versus drugs versus inner city shootings. Feelings should not drive which lives are saved.
Those of you that would be angry if the players made a protest - did you also show your anger when it was revealed that the NFL was charging our armed forces for the annual pretend patriotic support our troops bullshit?
I'll never understand people taking personal offense over someone holding a different opinion.
I completely disagree. People are already stopping and it will only continue. This isn't just people taking offense to another opinion either. Many Americans fell strongly about the flag and what they think it stands for. You may not, and that's fine, but it's incredibly ignorant to think people are just offended by a different opinion, rather than the disrespect they think is being displayed.
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In comment 13133206 rocco8112 said:
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about football?
You're right, let's drop the anthem.
I would absolutely support dropping the anthem. It's a strange, creepy, and unnecessary custom.
[quote] The players, while on the sideline wearing their uniforms being paid to represent the Giants and the NFL are NOT free to express an opinion that may be detrimental to the team or the league. This is not their free time. They are on the clock. If half of the fans decide to boycott the NFL or the Giants due to the players' actions, then this is conduct detrimental to the team which is absolutely written into every players' contract.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season. [/quote
Your premise is correct, however, it is up to the employer to enforce whatever employment policy they may have regarding the speech. So far, as far as we know, no NFL teams have sanctioned an employee for protesting.
Yet the Colts and Jets was 11% higher last year?
1. That's about the % of people cutting the cord every year at this point.
2. Remember what I mentioned earlier that from what I read these numbers are NOT tracking the ton of people who watched the game online, on their phone, on their tablet, on shitty stream feed websites, etc etc etc. More people stream than ever before so these numbers are becoming less reliable until they find a better way to track.
And I'll believe that people will stop watching when I see it. This is a league where one of the teams is named something that many fans consider to be an openly racist nickname, and that hasn't stopped anyone from watching. I don't think this will either.
Instead a lot of people will feel like they're protesting the protest by drinking a can of piss with "America" written on the side of it. Shit it wouldn't surprise me if Budweiser paid Kaepernick to start this issue.
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The acknowledgement that these are much rarer than these protests suggest and that the backlash (taking cops out of shitty neighborhoods) probably has caused and will continue to cause more black deaths than these questionable shootings, that has a larger one. Not downplaying misconduct or the affront to dignity caused by minor but more frequent misconduct, but this is an exercise in confirmation bias above all else.
Body count is secondary to who is doing the shooting. I would rather the intense focus be where the most lives can be saved and the players could make a difference there. How many black people were killed by cops versus drugs versus inner city shootings. Feelings should not drive which lives are saved.
And that's a place where these players can (and often do) have the greatest impact. Many come out of these neighborhoods or neighborhoods like them, they're inspirational to a generation of kids who want to do the same thing. It doesn't mean you don't focus on police misconduct, but the wider issue of violence is not unrelated and it's a place where they can do some amazing things.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
I can promise you this and I am absolutely serious. As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
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you have to consider how large the fan base is of those who aren't die hard fans. If you think those people won't bail then I don't know what to tell you. Not everyone is plays fantasy and spends time on their teams message board. If people feel like politics are entering an arena they don't want it to, or if an agenda is being pushed that they don't agree with, they will bail.
Heck, I've bailed on the NFL a lot the past 4/5 years mainly due to the updates rules and not wanting to glorify all the pieces of shit that play in the league. I always watch the Giants but I no longer watch every game like I used to.
I can promise you this and I am absolutely serious. As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
Just beer-fed talk? Possibly. I'm not so sure.
The Giants made a statement? Must have missed it.
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or tuning in to see a Brady-less Patriots team. Plus, who knows, the drop in ratings could tie in to having a watered down product too.
Yet the Colts and Jets was 11% higher last year?
Colts actually had high expectations going in. A game that headlines Andrew Luck probably is a higher draw than a game featuring Wentz (who isn't quite a household name yet) and Cutler. 11% is quite substantial, but I have a hard time believing that drop is mostly driven by fans protesting players' protests.
Bingo
That will get the league's attention before the 4 pm games kick off.
You almost seem offended that people may turn away from the game. You may be right and nothing would come of it, but when it comes to national pride I can absolutely see a group of people turning away from the game. How big? Who knows, but the risk is very real and the NFL is in a slippery slope. How bad does it get for them if they ban there protests? Are they labeled because of it?
I don't think there's much the NFL can do, if they take away the players ability to sit for the flag, he backlash would be unreal.
That would be the right time, but emotion is a much more powerful force than reason.
It looked like a bad shoot, probably the only thing that could help is audio with a direct threat from Terance. Without that there is no reason to believe he was pulling a weapon. Of course an unarmed man on PCP could be a deadly threat, but not at that range.
The incident probably had more to do with someone on PCP not complying, which made a cop who was not equipped to deal with the situation, nervous-than race. The race baiters are out already. "He looks like a bad man". There is zero evidence that was a racist comment and grasping at straws, plus the helicopter pilot said it and not the one who shot. He also looked like a big man in the video ignoring a few guns and a taser.
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As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
This is just wrong. Sure someone will buy them that's already a viewer. Losing a viewer is losing revenue. This reaction is real and costly to the NFL. Just because a current viewer buys them it doesn't create a new viewer.
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And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
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As a season ticket holder, if the Giants allow the players to make a political statement against cops (while the cops are surrounding the field to protect them), then I am absolutely selling every one of my tickets. Not going... period.
And someone else will buy them and the Giants and the NFL will be none the worse for wear for you having done so.
This is just wrong. Sure someone will buy them that's already a viewer. Losing a viewer is losing revenue. This reaction is real and costly to the NFL. Just because a current viewer buys them it doesn't create a new viewer.
Until someone can quantify these speculative fearmongering threats of exodus, I have a hard time accepting that people will stop watching in any number that represents a real threat to NFL profitability.
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In comment 13133307 EricJ said:
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And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
Assuming the Giants and/or the CBA has a conduct policy regarding political speech that is enforceacble under these circumstances, what do you believe would be an appropriate sanction for a player that silently does not stand for the National Anthem?
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
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In comment 13133313 Go Terps said:
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In comment 13133307 EricJ said:
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And you will easily find buyers for those tickets, and then you'll watch the game from your living room.
that is fine. I can live with that. Not going to haul my ass up to east rutherford and watch a fucking police protest before an NFL game. Fuck that
From the Giants organization perspective. Maybe they dont care because they will always be sold out. However, at least half of the time when my tickets sell, the visitors fans are buying them. If that doesn't bother the Giants then I guess no loss for them.
I guarantee you that Wellington would never allow this...never.
Assuming the Giants and/or the CBA has a conduct policy regarding political speech that is enforceacble under these circumstances, what do you believe would be an appropriate sanction for a player that silently does not stand for the National Anthem?
Nothing.
If the nfl survived the lockouts of the past they will survive this too
Players will come out after the anthem.
As I see it, when you protest by "disparaging the flag" as you put it, you're exercising the very right that you and I served for in the spirit of the founding fathers who themselves "disparaged" the flag of their nation before crafting ours.
Players will come out after the anthem.
I like that even better than a video.
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bradshaw44 : 8:58 pm : link : reply
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
I've been streaming games for at least the past six years. It has to do with cord-cutting, availability, and the myriad options available...definitely not political statements.
yankees78 : 9:38 pm : link : reply
Hope they do it.
Let's hug it out and get one another through these troubling times.
So, this has nothing to do with what happened with the cops. Has nothing to do with what is going on out in the world. This is a business. If the players want to (on their free time) go and stand in front of a police station with a protest sign, then knock yourselves out.
If I go on camera wearing my company shirt with the logo and say or do something that is unpopular to millions and/or against the company core values, then I will be reprimanded and possibly will lose my job.
I was listening to Sirius NFL radio and I heard fans call in saying they hope the 49ers lose the rest of their games. I heard 49er fans say they are selling their tickets and do not want any part of the team since they are allowing this.
This is a business and a football game. Game day is NOT a political platform for the players. They can do that after practice on a Tuesday if they want....or in the off season.
I see it the same way.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
This is incredibly reactionary, and has nothing much to do with the subject.
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....
yankees78 : 9:38 pm : link : reply
Hope they do it.
Let's hug it out and get one another through these troubling times.
Pics or GTFO
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yankees78 : 9:38 pm : link : reply
Hope they do it.
Let's hug it out and get one another through these troubling times.
snort
The NFL will survive and get past this, but to think some people won't stop watching is incredibly naive. People stopped watching various sports for far less.
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bradshaw44 : 8:58 pm : link : reply
11% drop isn't all cutters. Add in the protests and Goodell acting like Vince McMahon and that gets you to 11%.
Again, not saying the entire drop is cord cutters. The largest percentage of it without a doubt. Anything beyond cable and satellite bills being shredded, whether it's people not liking the game in 2016 vs their nostalgia days, anthem shit, their team being the Browns, there is just no way to know what that amount of folks may be without asking. I just can't assume that some guys kneeling is driving an army of fans away.
I've been streaming games for at least the past six years. It has to do with cord-cutting, availability, and the myriad options available...definitely not political statements.
In the LA market, I've been used to getting Giants games pretty regularly in the past. Now that the Rams are in town, Giants games will get blocked out on FOX, so I'm likely going to be streaming most Giants games. I wonder if anyone here actually knows any real people that are outright protesting the NFL.
The NFL will survive and get past this, but to think some people won't stop watching is incredibly naive. People stopped watching various sports for far less.
We're also fans of a team from NY/NJ. The average take on this issue may be quite different for fans of teams from elsewhere.
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That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
This is incredibly reactionary, and has nothing much to do with the subject.
Seems right on point to me.
RDJR - I don't think any punishment is appropriate for a player refusing to acknowledge the anthem. I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about kneeling during the anthem. I think it's far more disrespectful to what this country stands for to try to compel someone else to do something so trivial against their will.
RDJR - I don't think any punishment is appropriate for a player refusing to acknowledge the anthem. I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about kneeling during the anthem. I think it's far more disrespectful to what this country stands for to try to compel someone else to do something so trivial against their will.
Maybe these gestures stuck a stronger cord.
That's just nonsense. People boycotting Chik Fil'A likely wouldn't have rated sexual politics among their top ten reasons to choose a fast food joint but in that time and place it mattered to them enough to impact their decisions. For folks with loved ones in law enforcement or the military or for whom this is a bigger deal than it is to you, you're talking about impacting choices between entertainment/down time options. And it wouldn't take a huge number to have a discernible impact in ratings.
That started with Michael Vick's reinstatement, and the NFL and the players seem to find new ways to get me to spend less of my money. At this point, about the last thing they'll lose with me is my viewership, which probably wouldn't happen due to something like this, but combined with all the other nonsense (rule changes promoting scoring, fining players for celebrations, etc.), you never know.
For the players who choose to protest - I don't know what affect it has on others, but I roundly ignore it. I don't see a stance for a cause, I see attention seeking. If they wanted to raise awareness, they've already got a platform as NFL players. Social media is everywhere. Work positively, trying to raise awareness about these incidents, try to spur positive change in one way or another, whether to try to legalize drugs to eliminate some of the mindless incarceration we have going on, or start educational programs to get people above the poverty level, or if you're going directly at LE, push for more transparent conduct reviews of law enforcement and steeper penalties for offenders.
Kneeling down during the national anthem won't accomplish much, and could just drive a greater wedge in the racial divide. Try and use the game of football that draws a wide demographic as an example of things we share, and work from there for positive change.
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People watch football: loyalty to a team, gambling, fantasy, family tradition, tailgating, friends/community, entertainment where does the national anthem rank? I would venture to say it is not a top 10 factor in determining whether someone is going to watch
That's just nonsense. People boycotting Chik Fil'A likely wouldn't have rated sexual politics among their top ten reasons to choose a fast food joint but in that time and place it mattered to them enough to impact their decisions. For folks with loved ones in law enforcement or the military or for whom this is a bigger deal than it is to you, you're talking about impacting choices between entertainment/down time options. And it wouldn't take a huge number to have a discernible impact in ratings.
HOWEVER, if these annoyed fans still went to the games but refused to spend any money at the concessions, THEN you would see the NFL or individual teams stop this. I would guess that people are split down the middle on this issue. If half of the season ticket holders went to the game and brought a sandwich with them then just watch what would happen.
Hey yankees!
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
Wrong. Men are privileged. White people are privileged. I am a white man. I don't have to worry when I walk home after dark. I don't have to worry if the police pull me over. It is not that all cops are bad, but the sh!t women and minorities put up with has to stop. I have three kids...never once had to lecture them on how to behave with the police or wonder when they come home late, are they dead...but every African American mom or dad that I know confronts these things every day.
The playing field is not level. If you pretend it is level, you are making it even less so.
How about this. We can say the justice system is fair. You are a criminal laywer.
David, he has made a statement about ALL cops. He even wore socks portraying cops as pigs.
We would all agree that not every minority is a criminal (at least I hope you feel that way) yet cops can all be portrayed as evil or bad? That IS what he is saying.
okiegiant : 10:04 pm : link : reply
In comment 13133389 yankees78 said:
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Hope they do it.
Hey yankees!
Hey okie! Hope all is well with ya.
Spot on
FatHeadTommy : 9:35 pm : link : reply
That's fine, but let me add a few things.
I am a veteran. I lost one of my closest friends in the Gulf.
I believe in protests. When you protest against an isolated incident (or even multiple isolated incidents) by disparaging the flag and the anthem, you are misguided. You are not even helping your cause. More African-Americans will die in Chicago this year at the hands of their peers than completely INNOCENT African-Americans at the hands of police in the next 50 years.
Football is entertainment, like going to a play or a movie. It needs my money as a fan to survive. If I don't pay, it goes away. I stopped watching baseball years ago when there was no World Series due to strike. I have never watched another game and they have never gotten another dollar from me.
And baseball is dying a slow death.
There will always be isolated incidents where stupid people do horrible things to people.
I am a criminal attorney who has worked in the system and against the system for more than 25 years. And I RARELY see the system treat anyone differently based upon race. The prosecutors I know, the judges I appear before bend over backwards to be fair and they work hard at it. I do see far more bias based upon sex.... absolutely. Men get screwed, women get pampered.
What fresh hell is this? Oh the poor men.....
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about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
college and hs games don't occur on Sunday. Deer hunting has high barriers to entry as an option. Netflix is a more recent alternative. I'll agree to disagree on the elasticity of demand for nfl football which I feel is pretty in elastic. I actually think the boycotts would be louder and more prominent if the nfl fined the protesting players
Honey do lists are elastic. It's an allocation of leisure time, not just about what sorts of contemporaneous entertainment are available.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
Freedom of Speech - ( New Window )
You're smarter then that. White privilege isn't disproven at all by what you just posted.
I don't agree with that. I'm a Giants fan. That's completely removed from whether I want to go to a play or a movie. Not to compare us to soccer fans in Europe, but it's somewhat more like that, than it is like plays or movies. There's actually no connection or cross-elasticity at all for me between watching Giants games and watching plays or movies. Zero.
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who are dying in greater numbers from heroin than they are from natural causes, who suffered or suffer from DV and substance abuse in their daily lives, whose job prospects are shit, and who are constantly pulled over because their vehicles are pieces of shit. Lecture them about white privilege.
You're smarter then that. White privilege isn't disproven at all by what you just posted.
The conflation of privilege based on class and privilege based on skin is pretty rampant. Again, not to suggest that African Americans don't face acts of racism small and large, just to suggest that it is still better to be comfortable or affluent and black than struggling and white.
And there is a very long list of white people killed by police under the same kinds of highly questionable circumstances. I've posted about many of them right here. They simply aren't stories that fit the media narrative, so they don't get national coverage.
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drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
Goddamnit..."obviously deserved it"...wtf?
What about just an unarmed guy?
So, I found I previously lot my emotions get the better of me. While I would never intentionally do something disrespectful to the flag, the Nation Anthem or the Country in general, the President (not to go off on a tangent but I always felt like I am respectful to the President regardless of if I voted for he (or eventually maybe she) or not. It always seemed to me the right thing to do and how I was raised.)
However in being consistent with my own "code" I have changed my stance here, I don't care what these players do, any of them. Until that opening kick-off and then once there are 00's on the scoreboard in the 4th Q I don't care once again.
Their rights to do it were never in question for me. But the appropriateness was and the effectiveness, and I don't know, maybe it still is, and I am not clear how it gets their point more sympathetic, but I no longer care what anyone does during the National Anthem or if they cancel it completely.
I'm just going to worry about myself and my own morals/beliefs/respect.
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In comment 13133449 Dunedin81 said:
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about the rest of the country. Deer season is bigger than football season in many places, college is bigger than the NFL in plenty more, and HS football is bigger than both in some places. So there are plenty of alternative entertainment options. And this is the era of Netflix, where your entertainment options need not be contemporaneous.
college and hs games don't occur on Sunday. Deer hunting has high barriers to entry as an option. Netflix is a more recent alternative. I'll agree to disagree on the elasticity of demand for nfl football which I feel is pretty in elastic. I actually think the boycotts would be louder and more prominent if the nfl fined the protesting players
Honey do lists are elastic. It's an allocation of leisure time, not just about what sorts of contemporaneous entertainment are available.
Just to make the point in the most simplistic, trite way - what are some of the most football-crazy part of the US? Texas. Western Pennsylvania. Wisconsin. All areas in which hunting is very, very popular.
Lol. The irony in this post.
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In comment 13133441 David in LA said:
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drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
Well according to someone above, this guys orobabskh deserved it since he had PCP in his car. I mean, they're fucking beasts, so can't be too careful with just using a taser.
Goddamnit..."obviously deserved it"...wtf?
don't back track. You clearly meant orobabskh
It's not rocket science. You have leaves to rake and a lawn to mow. You can do so on Saturday, when Big State is playing a conference rival, or you can do so on Sunday, when your hometown team is playing out of conference. You can hunt on Saturday and mow on Sunday, or you can mow on Saturday and watch football on Sunday. You can make the wife happy and watch DWTS in hopes of getting lucky on Thursday, or you can watch the Browns square off against the Bills.
Like Del most of us are a good deal more involved, which is why we're on a football fan forum. But not everyone is that involved, and for some of the ones who are an anti-LEO or, in perception, anti-American protest during said leisure time could be enough to make 'em less so.
They'll fine players for wearing cleats that raise awareness about various causes but are mum on players not standing for the national anthem.
Then again, I know it's about the money and nothing else.
Perhaps you can figure out the difference between a right to be free from government intrusion and the ability to say something wearing your company's uniform without consequences.
Lol. The irony in this post.
And the irony is?
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Lol. The irony in this post.
And the irony is?
He can't possibly understand hunting because he may (or may not) be from Canada? A country with massive tracts of uninhabited land that millions of people hunt on?
Not a fan of the form pf the protest, but it doesn't affect me one way or another
The first few times CK didn't even get off the bench and sat there. That to me was extremely disrespectful. But, going down on 1 knee shows respect ... with a bit of a caveat. I don't see a problem with that.
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... exercising their right to free speech are the same ones that invoke the second amendment the minute someone suggests we need to seriously think about the availability and fire power of assault weapons. Just checking.
Perhaps you can figure out the difference between a right to be free from government intrusion and the ability to say something wearing your company's uniform without consequences.
I think that is an oversimplification.
Are the Police Racist? - ( New Window )
Just reading through. Great post. I think there is still a problem with how minorities are not treated equally, and I think it is appropriate to stand for our national anthem. Is that still ok? We need more reasons to come together as a nation, not be further seperated. I agree something should be done, and I understand this helped move the conversation forward, but I think there is a better way to get the message across to more people to help see actual change.
How about they do something as a team on their day off?
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
In Les' defense, I've been to Toronto many times. Anything aside from putting on skinny jeans and covering yourself in awful perfume to go out for a night at the opera is considered "weird hobbies" for men. It's the most "metro" place on the planet.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
Or hank Williams jr
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when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
Thanks pj, I was trying to write the same thing. Nobody is squeamish on the topic. It has to stop.
Great point
I applaud these men who recognize that they have the benefit of unbelievable privilege and feel driven to somehow acknowledge a scourge affecting their community.
I think the challenge is to come up with a way of calling attention to the issue in a way that is not disrespectful to other aspects of the symbolism (the anthem as a time to remember the sacrifices of the military, first responders etc.) Personally until someone comes up with something better, I think Carlos and Smith's Olympic gesture may be the best answer.
In the locker room until it's over.
I prefer athletes who take stands versus those who don't, even when I disagree. (Lol at Carl Everett not believing in dinosaurs, for instance, but he had the balls to say that in Sports Illustrated.)
Where's the truth? I don't know.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
You're both being serious? Try referring the cartoon that you yourself posted. I'll help you (since you seem to need it) by highlighting the relevant portion:
>>>>
--
ESPN is not the government. They have every right to can their employees (within the parameters of signed contracts) if they don't like what they say or do. Has exactly zero to do with "Free Speech." Ditto Niners and/or NFL for Kaepernick.
Your attempts to pigeonhole this into a left/right debate (cause, get it? Hank Williams and Curt Schilling are conservatives....you guys get it? Their "free speech" doesn't matter to you!) are bizarre. I'm trying to come up with the motivation but am mildly distracted by the stark and ongoing misunderstanding of the 1st amendment.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Well said!
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
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1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
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drew the same ire as an unarmed black guy getting murdered on camera.
What about just an unarmed guy?
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
LOL as if those are the *only* documented cases of bias happening via the police. What a joke.
It's literally happened to me, and my dad, on separate occasions. and I'm not even black. Did I imagine it?
It's not just OMFG COPS KILL PPL11
So again, it's happened to me, so get the fuck outta here with your bullshit.
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In comment 13133622 Matt M. said:
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1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
This is horseshit and a complete fallacy. The niners released a very public letter stating that it was not any statement on their behalf and have suffered literally zero backlash due tot his - it's all been on Kapernick.
Disagree with what you want but don't make shit up
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In comment 13133637 EricJ said:
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In comment 13133622 Matt M. said:
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1) The beauty of this country is that everyone has the right to stand, sit, or do whatever during the anthem.
2) His act isn't a sign of hatred for his country. He is merely taking a stand on a serious issue plaguing this country right now.
3) Regardless of which side of the fence you stand on in regards to Black Lives Matter, police violence, etc. you can't say his act isn't making a difference. He's had everyone talking for more than 2 weeks and more and more athletes are joining him. This is certainly more effective than a generic prayer circle at the end of the game, which happens any way.
4) Anyone who is truly insulted because they love this country so much should also have the understanding that everything great about this country affords him the right to do this.
5) Likewise, it is hypocritical to condemn him by saying you or anyone else fought for the flag, etc. Fighting for this country and the symbols of this country are actually fighting for his very right and freedom being exercised.
Missing the point. It is all about the fact that he is doing it on company time. He is at work and essentially making a statement FOR THE 49ers AND THE NFL. That is the problem. NOT that he is protesting.
Why is this such a problem? If they want, they can cut him for it. They haven't yet, so they're clearly willing to live with it.
This is horseshit and a complete fallacy. The niners released a very public letter stating that it was not any statement on their behalf and have suffered literally zero backlash due tot his - it's all been on Kapernick.
Disagree with what you want but don't make shit up
I assume you're responding to the comment above mine, not mine....
It's not just OMFG COPS KILL PPL11
So again, it's happened to me, so get the fuck outta here with your bullshit.
The only time I've ever had a cop pull a gun on me was when I was in a car with 3 black/latino people (I'm white). We did nothing wrong and didn't even get a ticket. Easy for me to let go, but I don't have to feel anxious whenever I see a cop like some of my friends do.
Yet at the same time there are tons of great, wonderful cops. Hard problem to solve, this one. Talking about it is good, which is why I think Kaep has added something of value. He put himself out there, which I greatly respect.
Every suggestion I've seen here on how they should protest differently involves a platform that next to nobody will see. After practice? On their own time? All opportunities to protest away from our eyes, where we can choose to ignore it if we want. And many of us to.
But you're right. They are at work, and some of us probably have jobs that prohibit political expressions at the workplace. If we do that, we would risk reprimand, a fine, or getting fired. These players technically face those same risks, although I doubt any team wants to be the first one to take that step.
My biggest problem with this is those who respond, "Your job is to play football." When people say that, I hear, "Shut up and entertain me." I know we turn to sports for escape, but that's a fantasy. Things are beyond fucked up right now.
I love this country. I salute the lives risked and lost to help ensure our freedom. But that freedom gives up the opportunity to make ourselves heard, but voting for who we want, and by standing up and saying, "Hey, this is wrong."
I don't like players disrespecting the flag. I don't like people burning the flag. But I also respect the freedom for people to take a stand, even when they feel that is the necessary action. I respect the right of people to do this without being arrested or having their entire family executed in retaliation.
I will watch on Sunday. I will watch the anthem and think about the battles our millitary has fought to keep us free. I will acknowledge the struggles people still face for true freedom. And then I will sit down to watch some football and cheer for my team. All of them.
Good night.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
Truth bomb.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
Truth bomb.
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How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
Those are instances of an employer firing an employee on their own accord. The Niners front office said they were ok with CK's protest. Schilling's a replaceable ESPN talking head, and Hank Williams is a musician whose comments were too big of a distraction for the network to want to keep anyways. I'm all for their free speech, but the the cons of what they did in terms of public perception outweighed their value to their respective employers.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
Truth bomb.
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
Do I have that right?
The media fuels hatred and racism instead of trying to unite everybody. Victim culture, etc....
The media fuels hatred and racism instead of trying to unite everybody. Victim culture, etc....
Spoken like the true piece of shit that you are. I'm embarrassed that I root for the same team as you.
2) I do 100% understand the first amendment and that it doesn't protect him from the 49ers or the league. But it does protect him from the government punishing him for these actions and that is what I applaud.
3) I don't believe all the police shootings and murders have been acts of racism. But, they are mostly acts of excessive force and violence, which are problems regardless of race of victims or police. I do think some cases are muddled enough to not criticize the officers under normal circumstances. However, they occurred while other events unfolded and that is why they have drawn their own scrutiny. More troubling is that almost across the board officers aren't even getting indicted. In most cases, I think, the facts are muddled enough that a trial is not an unreasonable expectation. In most, I think there is still enough information to aquit, but that doesn't mean you there wasn't enough for a trial and for the prosecution to have the opportunity to collect more facts and at least build and present a case.
4) in my view, the retaliation of violence against police is an equally terrible travesty. If I were protesting, this is part of what I would be protesting against. In the simplest form, I believe in all lives mastering and we have a serious need to end lethal violence period.
5) To that end, I also have a problem with excessive force being used, again regardless of race or which side. So far, most of these cases have shown police to not have been in grave danger whether the victims were armed or unarmed. But, firing 30 times to kill ignores that.
6) It is also important to realize whether or not the victims were criminals is not relevant. It is a defense of the police questioning them and attempting to take them into custody. However, it does not make every police action defensible.ikewise, the actions of a handful of individual officers does not make every violent protest, hatred etc. defensible either.
7) Lastly if a team or the league asked for this form of protest to cease, it is 100% within their rights. However, I think the players have done enough, so far, not to overly politicize this protest and not to use inflammatory or hateful language, so that kind of action does seem excessive.
8) I view this as a protest not against America, but instead against a hotbed problem in America that is addressable. I don't think this is done out of hatred for the country, but out of love for a country while recognizing a serious problem.
While I don't doubt there is some overlap between deer hunting hobbyists and football fans I don't think most would be do passionate about this issue that they will suddenly go deer hunting on Sundays. I actually think the casual fan base is small relative to passionate loyal fans
. I suspect a good chunk of those tweeting boycottnfl will still tune in as the pull is too strong.
Imagine a league-wide no protest rule and Jennings leading a 5 or 6 Giant player boycott on game day.
How would that sit with you Giants fans?
Chris Long on the protest - ( New Window )
I'd rather they not do it, but in the bigger scheme of things wgaf?
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
What's so strange about it, and what does it have to do with the site's stance on political commentary? He's making an observation and forming an opinion about it. He could be right or wrong, but it's an opinion.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
Or donate time and money to help wounded soldiers when they get home The real disrespect is the way many veterans are treated when they return
By people and the government itself.
And if someone peacefully protesting keeps you from watching the game when every game features a number of players on each team who are bad people. Wife beaters, dead beat fathers, drug dealers have strange priorities
Beating your wife is okay. I'll still support you.
Saying "hey this country might have some issues" makes your a terrorist.
Maybe something is fundamentally wrong
Maybe I'll kneel this Sunday.
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In comment 13133557 Greg from LI said:
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How many of those who are suddenly free speech absolutists had a problem with ESPN firing Curtis Schilling?
Or hank Williams jr
Those are instances of an employer firing an employee on their own accord. The Niners front office said they were ok with CK's protest. Schilling's a replaceable ESPN talking head, and Hank Williams is a musician whose comments were too big of a distraction for the network to want to keep anyways. I'm all for their free speech, but the the cons of what they did in terms of public perception outweighed their value to their respective employers.
And if the Niners did cut him? Would you be so passive? Curt Schilling is a schmuck and I'm not particularly fond of Hank Jr's politics, but the rub of it is you don't have an issue with their dismissal because you don't agree with them.
Their protests (to me at least) carry as much weight as self-righteous statements made by Hollywood actors and actresses the moment they get a chance to get in front of a podium at the Oscars.
Remember why we like them...
As for the specific character of the protests, for a variety of reasons I have no desire to listen to someone who thinks that the best way to get attention is to burn, stomp, mistreat or otherwise intentionally disrespect the flag. If you think the society it represents is fundamentally flawed, work to fix it.
Link - ( New Window )
Why don't they deserve a stage??? They play on a stage every god damned Sunday. They play with risk of life long injury. They are allowed to use their freedom of speech as they deem fit. I have several friends in he military and all but one of them feel that they fight to preserve our freedoms, which includes the right for people to protest.
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when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
"But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness."---- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT AREN'T YOU????
DJ5150 : 8:50 am : link : reply
the National Anthem....You can sit for the entire game."...Torts USA Hockey
I'd say it is a little different if you are selected to be on a group called Team USA that is playing it's sport for their country.
Protestors say he did not have a gun and are rioting (shouting hands up dont shoot which was debunked) , several police injured already had to go to hospital.
Reports are the cop is black also.
"Protesters" (rioters) are now throwing water bottles at police and news crews. They have already destroyed a police car.
So we had riots in Ferguson and Mike Brown turned out to be a criminal and attacked the police officer, hands up dont shoot never happened, riots in Baltimore over Freddie Gray in which a black judge dismissed all charges against the officers due to no evidence and now I bet these riots in Charlotte are going to be for nothing due to a justified shooting by a black cop.
But keep those protests going Kaep and company maybe more protestors will be empowered to injure cops, ambush and kill like in NY and Dallas or run them over by a car like the 3 cops last week. Way to go!!
What a pure example of jackassery... Kaep is kneeling, peacefully. If seeing someone kneel inspires you to go hurt someone then you need to check yourself into a mental institution.
Agreed.
As for mixing politics with the Giant uniform, that ship sailed a quarter-century ago, when Wellington Mara used SB XXI highlights in an anti-abortion video. The franchise survived.
+1
I don't have any opinion on the subject either way. The players can stand on their head and I wouldn't have noticed it without the media jamming it down my throat. My only slight opinion is that I'm watching football for football, and not for politics, so the over analysis of this topic during the broadcast is getting tiresome.
I agree. I never really understood the black on black crime counterpoint. Both are awful, both need to get cleaned up.
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
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In comment 13133576 eclipz928 said:
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when it comes to this subject. There's a lot of hiding behind this idea that it's disrespectful or unpatriotic to kneel during the national anthem, when the truth is just that there's a discomfort with the subject matter.
If there are players this weekend, just as there were last weekend, standing during the anthem with their right hand over their heart and their left fist in the air I'd expect most of the same people would still find a reason to bitch about the protest.
If the topic of excessive force by police against minorities makes you squeamish then just close your eyes tight and plug your ears for the two minutes prior to kickoff, or just walk away from your tv. Either way, please stop pretending that this is about respecting the flag.
I don't get why people like you need to jump to conclusions on topics like this and immediately go to the worst place. I think it says more about you than the people you make assumptions about.
not speaking for everyone, but the topic of excessive force by police against anyone doesn't make me squeamish - it needs to stop. period. But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness. In my opinion the football watching public probably either already nearly universally wish it didn't happen, or I am sure there are some who truly don't care about it and aren't changing their mind. I just don't see how Colin Kaepernick sitting down during the playing of the Anthem influences change.
And respect for the flag and national anthem is in each person's heart, there is no hiding behind anything, I believe as I said it sheds like on how you think more than how others do.
"But as I said many times I have no idea how not standing for the National Anthem helps put an end to it or even heighten the awareness."---- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT AREN'T YOU????
I was talking about it every time it happens. who isn't? Every time there's another incident I brace for the impact.
Not that I'm not sensitive to the victims and their families, of course I am, I'm human, but the rush to judgment is never quicker in this country than when a police officer is involved in a fatality and it's even quicker when it's a black victim.
What does this change? I don't view it as unifying, I view it as divisive.
I believe the majority feel this way (they already wish violence by police and especially any racially motivated violence were simply to end) and the ones who don't aren't changing their mind now that Colin Kaepernick didn't stand for the National Anthem. I believe they still view the messenger as the object not the message, since it's sort of a misplaced protest IMO.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
Perfect, I like that. Down in front!
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The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
Play the Anthem all you want on your own time, too, then
The local news coverage was a disgrace last night though. The NBC station interviewed two people - one a guy that was yelling "He was killed by a Cracker. The white devils are out to get us".(I'll see if I can find that footage) And a lady who complained that the blacks were being targeted by white officers pleading "They are killing our brothers".
One point of note - and apparently it is minor - the officer who shot the man is black.
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In comment 13133806 Mr. Bungle said:
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The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
Duned, I support the police. This is a huge problem and I don't think we need to keep qualifying statements when so many cops are using deadly force in error.
But it's not "so many." Use of lethal force remains relatively rare and use of force where it isn't obvious to just about everyone that the use was justified is rarer still. The questionable instances are, however, being aggregated by social media for the first time. Look, one is too many and it doesn't mean we shouldn't work to address it. But let's be realistic about the scope of the problem.
Play the Anthem all you want on your own time, too, then
This. It's just a mundane football game. Television, inebriated fans and beer commercials. No reason to drench it in holy national symbolism. The Red, White & Bluegasm that has become Goodell's NFL profanes the meaning of those symbols.
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on your own time
Play the Anthem all you want on your own time, too, then
Well that makes no sense. What about a moment of silence? We can do that on our own time too, but are you cool with people talking for 10 seconds if there's a moment of silence?
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It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
"No one." What newspapers are you reading? What social media are you following? And how, pray tell, are you going to prevent volatile situations from turning lethal without limiting their occurrence?
And this I actually agree with. I've said repeatedly that I don't know why they still play it at every game. That's a different discussion, though.
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It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
No one is calling for their presence to be minimized. They just want them to stop shooting at unarmed people.
"No one." What newspapers are you reading? What social media are you following? And how, pray tell, are you going to prevent volatile situations from turning lethal without limiting their occurrence?
You know what I mean.
Don't be obtuse.
The stated goals of BLM do not include minimizing police presence. Don't lump the fringe in with the movement.
Lest you'd want the Klan lumped in with you?
[quote] Are we going to include the laundry list of leftist bullshit that's also a part of their "stated goals"? [/quote
Why not?
One is not forced to agree with all points to support the larger cause.
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to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
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but it's a very poor time to be trying to make a point. Not standing for the National Anthem is very disrespectful and is not making their point except how ignorant they are to the meaning of the National Anthem and our Flag. Nobody is denying their ability to protest, however their method and timing are unacceptable. Take time after the game to gather in the middle of the field, like some often do, to do a prayer together or find another moment before or after the game or better yet, volunteer your time to talk with community organizations about your concerns. This type of protest is doing nothing but potentially disrupting team chemistry. I think the NFL Office needs to take a stand like they do for uniform violations and personal conduct on the field. They're on the clock during game time!
How is it disrupting teams chemistry? We are seeing entire teams band together in protest or the opposite.
Because there's still players like Pugh who feel the opposite and feel it's disrespectful. To me it could create animosity.
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In comment 13133726 GiAnT4LYFE said:
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to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
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In comment 13133732 section125 said:
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In comment 13133726 GiAnT4LYFE said:
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to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
I have had nothing but positive experiences with various interactions with police officers throughout my life. I don't hate the police. That doesn't mean that I can't see and understand a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also don't believe this is a new pandemic in america, it is just easier to see due to the ability to capture it on video. When I referenced the situation above, it was about the specific officers in that situation, so don't draw an assumption that I carry that over to all police officers in the US. The lady that pulled the trigger had no value for his life.
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In comment 13133913 GiAnT4LYFE said:
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In comment 13133732 section125 said:
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In comment 13133726 GiAnT4LYFE said:
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to recognize the root cause and would much rather criticize someone's right to exercise a very peaceful protest. I'm sure this issue doesn't affect 90% of the posters on this board, so it's probably more convenient for you to bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not an issue.
We have a long ways to go in this country toward equality.
See, you do the same thing because over 90% understand the root cause therefore your premise is wrong.
The question here is whether protesting the National Anthem is:
1.) disrespect to the entity which allows the protest (misguided)
2.) an effective or appropriate forum for the protest
90% know there is an appearance of inappropriate use of force when dealing with minority groups.
To address the points..
1. Disrespecting an inanimate object or symbol, as powerful as it may be, is not in the same class as a race that is continually shown disrespect based on the color of their skin. How does a terror suspect have a shootout with police and still make it to custody alive...They wanted him alive to figure out more information. They valued him alive. Why isn't that same premise applied to a black man that is pulled over, or has his car break down? Because they didn't have value for anything he offered them. The flag is supposed to represent liberty, justice, and freedom for all. Right now, that isn't present in our country.
2. An effective and appropriate forum for a protest is one that gets people talking and thinking about the subject matter. CK's original stance to sit has opened the avenue for many others to feel comfortable supporting a cause that needs awareness and action. I personally feel this should be a springboard toward reforming social issues that need attention. However, we cannot expect athletes to be the sole solution providers to societies issues. It's up to us to take back control of our communities and oversee those that are to serve and protect us.
PS. This is not a personal attack on you and I realize I'm rambling. I have many thoughts about society reform on my mind and have a difficult time organizing them into a well thoughtout post.
The same premise is being applied virtually 100% of the time, come on man. No doubt excessive force is used at too high of a rate, but to act like every officer goes into every situation and doesn't want to make sure the perp is safe is ludicrous. Safety of self and others is a foundation for what the police stand for. Yes, that doesn't always happen which is the problem we are discussing, but your wildly out in left field with how you view police as a whole.
I have had nothing but positive experiences with various interactions with police officers throughout my life. I don't hate the police. That doesn't mean that I can't see and understand a social issue that needs to be addressed. I also don't believe this is a new pandemic in america, it is just easier to see due to the ability to capture it on video. When I referenced the situation above, it was about the specific officers in that situation, so don't draw an assumption that I carry that over to all police officers in the US. The lady that pulled the trigger had no value for his life.
BLACK LIVES MATTER TOO.
And thank you for just making the protest during a 2 minute song while I'm getting a beer.
Get on with the game.
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
Say it like it really is!
Link - ( New Window )
Do I have that right?
Link - ( New Window )
The media fuels hatred and racism instead of trying to unite everybody. Victim culture, etc....
The Democratic aim, "Divide and Conquer"!
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
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it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
But it is a "perceived racism issue" based on how people feel about it. Rational thought and analysis do not matter anymore. And how many people are really spending the time to really research and understand all angles ? Almost none, as usual.
I find it hard to support anything that stinks of the BLM lies and vitriol and accepted excuses for people who are breaking the law and forcing cops to deal with potential outcomes that involves death and ruined lives all around
But there is a serious problem with some of these incidents and a few bad apples/scared trigger-happy cops/poor training/outright disregard for sanctity of life are creating a horrible situation.
I think a lot of the protests are misguided and do not line up with the data, relative high-quality of police and low amount of corruption vs. other countries, but I can understand why people are outraged.
One video of one (or a few incidents) is enough to really get people outraged. There are no easy answers.
Actually, it's pretty in line with his policy here. He thinks the politics will take away from BBI, just like he thinks the politics will take away from gameday.
They're not hurting anybody. In fact, we all complained after Furgeson that the protests were unacceptable because they turned violent and hurt the cause. Now people are (literally as) peacefully as possible protesting the status quo, and we take issue with that. You can't have it both ways.
They aren't protesting America, and I don't understand how anyone could have that rudimentary analysis of all this.
Go Giants, whether they stand or sit.
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In comment 13134140 Dunedin81 said:
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it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
Ignorant AF
It's the American way!
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it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Since there is no conceivable circumstance where it would be appropriate to shoot an unarmed person, why don't you join the force and show 'em how it's done?
Or are we engaging in confirmation bias and drawing wide-ranging conclusions based on a small number of ostensibly egregious examples?
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In comment 13134140 Dunedin81 said:
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it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
And ass wipes like this criticize peaceful protestors. Go jump off a bridge
PCP did seem to play a factor and that will be disregarded (not sure if not doing PCP is a white privilege thing). Terance will be seen as a martyr, but the father of four high on PCP played a lead role in his own death.
A drug recognition expert has a reasonable expectation that someone high on PCP may be a deadly threat. Terance made himself seem like this possible threat (if he knowingly and willingly took the PCP)by acting erratic and disobeying lawful commands even w/ guns drawn). You can see his arms are up, but come down-arms up Don't shoot is a lie, but anyway, arms up don't shoot doesn't apply when your arms come back down.
It was reasonable for her to be on extreme edge with him going near his waist. Her fault most likely was her lack of discipline in the face of her anxiety and not her need for white supremacy. He put her in this spot, but she does have culpability because she chose to be a cop, but unless she had malicious intent--she made a bad mistake in a tough situation.
The charge in Oklahoma probably should be be:
second degree manslaughter is a felony. However, rather than a minimum of four years in prison, it carries a minimum of two years and a maximum of four.
But it's still a tough charge. Negligent homicide seems to only be in the Oklahoma statutes for car accidents.
You're right. Everyone who has drugs in their system should be shot on sight, without a trial. Fuck yeah, freedom and liberty!
What the fuck would it take for you to understand that race plays a role in a situation? Would it take a cop saying "hey, I need to shoot a black guy"?
We all know your MO and we all know that you bend over backwards to piss and desecrate on the graves of dead people to push your own agenda and justify your own worldviews. You should be in the olympics because you are a hell of a mental gymnist.
We took in a terrorist alive in NJ, but yeah, fuck this black guy, he deserved to die. He played his own hand in his death by doing drugs, amirite?
Get the fuck out of here. As usual, madcow and giants24 just turning up the ignorance and justification up to 11.
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The issue clearly is -- and only is -- how OK are we with law enforcement officers across the country applying lethal force to unarmed, non-threatening citizens as soon as a situation is clouded by some ambiguity (e.g., non-whiteness, video game controllers, instinctual body movements that result from having a gun pointed at you)?
It's not a red herring. It's a red herring to say we shouldn't care about police shootings because of black on black violence. It's not a red herring to point out that demonizing the police and trying to minimize their presence in at-risk communities will result in more deaths from a demographic group whose lives these people claim are devalued.
C'mon man, you know that "black on black violence" has become a go-to meme-ish retort to people who speak about police behavior against black people.
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In comment 13134140 Dunedin81 said:
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it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Stop resisting arrest and not following police orders. Stop commiting 45% of the crime when your community only makes up 12% of the population so you don't have to have so many confrontations with police.
Is an individual black person responsible for the actions of strangers who simply happen to have the same color of his skin? Answer it.
Are you saying black people deserve it? Answer it.
What a disgusting fucking post. Why don't you just come out and say that those blacks deserve what they get. That's what your post is trying to state while beating around the bush.
Horrible.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
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In comment 13134140 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
it's the catch 22 of wanting a severe limitation on police activity and presence in at-risk communities, wanting an end to "mass incarceration of African Americans" (a common refrain and one with a measure of salience) in those at-risk communities, and at the same time wanting police to be as or more successful at preventing violence in those at-risk communities. Those goals are at least in the short term mutually exclusive.
Step 1: Stop shooting unarmed people
Since there is no conceivable circumstance where it would be appropriate to shoot an unarmed person, why don't you join the force and show 'em how it's done?
Or are we engaging in confirmation bias and drawing wide-ranging conclusions based on a small number of ostensibly egregious examples?
Pretty sure I've already completed my civic duty.
It doesn't take much to recognize that shooting unarmed people is wrong. Well, apparently it does, when you have educated people defending it.
It's fucking sad to see.
Disgusting, actually.
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IS fun?
It's the American way!
So is acting like an ass, getting called out for it, and then trying to buy as much good will as you can afford.
For me, this case was closed the moment Kap said that there was no difference between the American Flag and the Confederate Flag, and then opined about oppression while wearing a Fidel Castro t-shirt. The cops-as-pigs socks were just the icing on the cake.
As a Giants fan, I will support the players no matter what they do, but I would prefer that they show respect for the flag and the national anthem. Again, for me, the fact that you're not required by law to stand for it is precisely the reason why you should.
Dollars to donuts, there would be (and given past threads, there is) a hyper-emotional response to violence against people of the Jewish faith living in Europe. Which has been on the rise.
What started out as a D-list QB making a political statement possibly to distract from the fact that he’s making $19M sitting on the bench, has morphed into a look at me movement that will only make things worse. There are horrible things happening in this country and all over the world. Protesting or demonstrating during the Anthem isn’t going to stop innocent people from dying at the hands of careless, reckless, or racist police. It’s certainly not going to stop innocent people from dying at the hands of violent criminals, drug addicts, or the mentally ill who may not even know what they do. It will not protect our US Citizens from radicals that want to see the very fabric of our nation torn apart. Yes, it is a player’s right to sit, or take a knee. But, protesting the Anthem will only divide us further and shine a light on people whose motivations to demonstrate will likely be misrepresented or misunderstood. It will further divide. It will only distract. I have always been proud that my New York Football Giants are classy organization that has always, for the most part, been a picture about what is right in professional sports. If you want to fight the good fight against racism, inequality, or any other social injustice… Do it in the community. Do it on the radio. Do it in the offseason. Don’t do it on the football field. Don’t do it at work. Without that Flag and what it represents, people wouldn’t be able to enjoy a celebrity life playing professional sports. That’s why the Anthem plays before every game. The issues in this country are front and center. Watching football is an escape for many people from the awful realities that everyone should be outraged about. Seeing our beloved Giants standing unified amidst these polarizing times in our Nation will do more good to bring people together. When you wear the New York Football Giants uniform, wear it with pride. Stand together. Win together. United… Team… That is being part of the solution to these issues. Anything else will only end up being noise, contributing to the divisiveness that has become problem in this country.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
Why don't you answer the questions I posed to you in my previous post instead of deflecting?
Are you saying black people deserve to be treated differently by police because they are black? If you didn't say that, what did you mean?
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a pure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
Drawing a linear comparison between police brutality and Muslim attacks on Jews is comparing apples to aardvarks.
It's like an argument I had a while back when a bunch of white trustafarians blocked rush hour traffic on I-64 in Richmond purportedly for "BLM" - when you are deliberately antagonistic in your protest, you're more of a problem than a solution. Taking a broad issue and narrowing it down for suspect reasons doesn't do anything constructive.
And, again, the day I listen to any railing against oppression from a motherfucker wearing a Fidel Castro shirt is the day I gargle with razor blades.
It is actually quite disheartening to see people labeling this as being killed by the police only. There has been a lot of media about the disadvantages that the black community faces simply because of their race. This has included higher interest rates for home and auto loans.
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The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
Why don't you answer the questions I posed to you in my previous post instead of deflecting?
Are you saying black people deserve to be treated differently by police because they are black? If you didn't say that, what did you mean?
Of course not but cops go to where the crime is and almost half of the violent crime is centered in one community that makes up about 6% of the population (black males). This guy says it better than me. Jason Riley - African American writer for Wall Street Journal:
"In the summer of 2013, after neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman, a Hispanic, was acquitted in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, the political left wanted to have a discussion about everything except the black crime rates that lead people to view young black males with suspicion. President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder wanted to talk about gun control. The NAACP wanted to talk about racial profiling. Assorted academics and MSNBC talking heads wanted to discuss poverty, “stand-your-ground” laws, unemployment and the supposedly racist criminal justice system. But any candid debate on race and criminality in the United States must begin with the fact that blacks are responsible for an astoundingly disproportionate number of crimes, which has been the case for at least the past half a century."
“High rates of black violence in the late twentieth century are a matter of historical fact, not bigoted imagination,” wrote Mr. Stuntz. “The trends reached their peak not in the land of Jim Crow but in the more civilized North, and not in the age of segregation but in the decades that saw the rise of civil rights for African Americans — and of African American control of city governments.” The left wants to blame these outcomes on racial animus and “the system,” but blacks have long been part of running that system. Black crime and incarceration rates spiked in the 1970s and ’80s in cities such as Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Washington under black mayors and black police chiefs. Some of the most violent cities in the United States today are run by blacks."
"Black people are not shooting each other at these alarming rates in Chicago and other urban areas because of our gun laws or our drug laws or a criminal justice system that has it in for them. The problem is primarily cultural — self-destructive behaviors and attitudes all too common among the black underclass. The problem is black criminal behavior, which is one manifestation of a black pathology that ultimately stems from the breakdown of the black family. Liberals want to talk about what others should do for blacks instead of what blacks should do for themselves. But if we don’t acknowledge the cultural barriers to black progress, how can we address them? How can you even begin to fix something that almost no one wants to talk about honestly?"
Remember this is a black man that wrote this.
The following is excerpted from “Please Stop Helping Us” by Jason Riley - ( New Window )
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He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a pure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
In which case where a suspect was taken in alive did they not comply with officers instructions and still get taken alive?
It's not victim blaming or racist (though everyone goes directly there) to say if the victims had complied (in most cases) with police officers instructions they would be alive. The social worker was one where there's just no explanation for, and I don't think he died, but it doesn't matter, that's just an unfortunate situation, maybe even racist, but just looked like an untrained officer to me.
I've heard Dylan Roof cited. Read the report. "Roof cooperated with the officer who stopped him, according to police."
If Terence Crutcher did not reach in his car do you think he would have been shot?
He didn't deserve to die, make no mistake about that, and the female officer who shot him deserves to be investigated and probably prosecuted, but he did have a way to avoid it.
It's not as cut and dry as many of you make it seem, and it very likely has zero to do with race. If am man seemingly disoriented has a car in the middle of the road, is not complying with law enforcement instructions, walks away to his car and appears to lean in to get something he's putting himself at risk.
I simply don't know how officers are supposed to respond to that. I'd assume taser at most until they see a gun, and maybe in the end that's what the officer is charged with, but what if it was a gun, and you did wait to see it, are you then dead because of it?
That though police brutality is the most identifiable face of black ills right now, if you don't claim the others, they don't matter?
Hoo boy; we all know that's not how movements ever work.
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He was shot, just not killed. The San Bernardino terrorist and wife, on the other hand, were killed. Plenty of black (and white, and Latin, and whatever) people are arrested without being killed every day. Others of all races are killed. This is the kind of soft-brained logic I've been talking about - make a logical fucking point instead of hyperemotional drivel like this.
Police brutality is a real thing that affects all kinds of people of all races, and it begs for an examination of the kind of intrusive powers of the state that society bestows upon police. THAT is a constructive topic, but instead we get this kind of emotive racialist bullshit that lionizes someone like Michael Brown along with the innocent.
You have a good point and maybe the NJ dipshit terrorist is a bad example, but there are plenty of examples of people who have committed mass or multiple murders being taken alive, and I don't see why you find the juxtaposition of these arrests against unarmed black people being shot to be inherently flawed.
By the way, with regards to the second part of your post - I have been consistent in saying that police brutality is an issue that affects EVERYONE and I have openly lamented how it's become a lpure race issue. It's objectively true that it impacts certain races or segments of society more than others (socioeconomic classes for example), but I am 10000% with you that this is an issue everyone should be behind because it impacts everyone, even on tertiary levels. Hell, to me, it's not even solely police brutality, but just transparency and accountability.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
Do you really not know that answer?
Are you suggesting that bias based on skin color can only be white vs black or that real (or perceived) police brutality against minorities can only count when it is perpetrated by a white officer?
That's an incredibly simplistic take, and unfortunately one that a lot of folks subscribe to.
And if that isn't the simplistic view you were espousing, what exactly don't you understand about how our history (and current events) can affect one's views of race regardless of if you're white, black, brown, yellow, or blue?
Ah yes, because we all know that statements are declarative intentions, especially for large scale social and cultural movements.
Should we trust politicians when they make declarative policy goals? Or is that a rather inadequate measure.
I mean, the WHOLE of Libertarianism, from Hayek and Friedman, is predicated on a substantial set of implicit biases that make declarative statements on social and policy goals a poor measure of true outcomes.
Or, as has been suggested for centuries now, declarative statements based on large-scale social or policy movements are typically condensed for consumption by an audience that is won by simplicity, rather than complexity. And that the "true" impact (in this case, the outside goal of inequality of opportunity in black America) is often not explicitly stated.
No.
But it is absolutely possible to be biased based on skin color. You seem to be going with the opposite, no? That because it is a black officer it can't have anything to do with race or bias.
I'd venture to guess you don't interact with a whole lot of black folks if you've never had that discussion.
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pose a lethal danger to officers and to others. Pretending otherwise is dumbshit armchair quarterbacking. That is not to say that in every or even most instances the use of lethal force in such circumstances is appropriate (first blush look at Tulsa certainly doesn't look to be) but it is to say that it is easy for people who have never been in those situations or tried to empathize with officers confronted with them to make categorical determinations.
This is a valid point, but wouldn't the same logic be applied to the people who have never experienced difference in treatment from police officers yet still criticize those who have (or had people close to them who have) for speaking out on the issue?
Sure. Though I don't criticize people for speaking out on the issue, and I do try to empathize with people in that circumstance (a degree of such empathy being a necessity in my particular vocation).
Disliking these particular forms of protest and asserting that the particular narrative (open season on young black males) is counterproductive fiction is not to say that the wider narrative about the poor relationship between at-risk, mostly African-American communities and law enforcement, lacks merit; statistically and in perception it certainly does have merit.
A guess, evidently a wrong guess.
So what are you saying then? Seemed pretty clear that you think because it was a black officer that race can't be involved, no?
And yes, human nature is essentially tribal. No shit, that's one of the keystones to the inherent failures in socialism. Doesn't explain why there is no shortage of white people gunned down by police under questionable circumstances, UNLESS you're arguing that the tribe in question is blue versus everyone else. That one I agree with, but I'm reasonably certain that you're not going that route.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
LMAO you're going to claim the moral high ground now? I hope you cut yourself while cutting out eye holes in your sheets.
Based on what I've read many black people view the police as "blue" and all the same race regardless of physical appearance.
I could be wrong, this is just my perception. But in most cases of police violence where the police officer was not white it does not change the POV of the "community", and they don't say "oh, ok the police murdered an unarmed man, but the murderer was black so no big deal let's not be outraged"
most of the time with what I read it's irrelevant, law enforcement is viewed as an oppressive force.
George Zimmerman (obviously not a police officer) became white in the eyes of the social justice warriors while Colin Kaepernick remains black and they're the same whiteness.
I think oppression or injustice has no color, it's power/oppression vs the seemingly powerless.
just my impression. Hope that doesn't offend anyone.
Race is a simplistic explanation to a much more wide-ranging problem, in which police-civilian confrontations are inherently dangerous and variable on the threat-assessment ability of the cop in question. Add to that the kind of overbearing, power-craving personality that pervades most police departments, the "respect mah authoritah!" mindset, and you start to get to the root of the problem, particularly when you think about the overcriminalization of the law in this country, the "three felonies a day" idea.
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about statistics doesn't make it gospel.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
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The usual posters who can't handle an opposing opinion have arrived and instead of debating the facts start making personal attacks and actually want me to commit suicide lol.
This perfectly illustrates why this issue is such BS because you guys dont want to face facts of the root causes of why there are issues in the black community.
LMAO you're going to claim the moral high ground now? I hope you cut yourself while cutting out eye holes in your sheets.
Thanks for making my point. You are probably in the top 5 of the list of posters that can't handle an opposing view and are the cause of these threads getting deleted. You are unhinged, seek help.
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In comment 13134453 kicker said:
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about statistics doesn't make it gospel.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
Half of my nieces and nephews are mixed race children and all have been subject to racism and prejudice at different points. TO know WHY these men are doing this, you have to have their perspective and 99.9% of us simply don't. If it starts an unpleasant conversation that's ok, this country was founded on those very ideals that the status quo was no longer working and someone had to take action. Rich famous black men are making their voices heard and it makes white america very nervous and very annoyed because they just want to see their teams play and not be reminded of things they will never live or see.
The bottom line is that NO ONE, NO ONE has a right to tell anyone else how to feel about anything. Disagreements and discussion are healthy if they spur someone to action. Let's hope it has an intended effect and brings us closer because we have never been this splintered along racial lines in my entire time on this planet.
coming to this late, but Joey, that is my favorite of your BBI posts in 20 years. well said
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
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In comment 13134499 Big Al said:
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In comment 13134453 kicker said:
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about statistics doesn't make it gospel.
I know, it's great that people can say 45% of crime, 6% of population, and lead to a conclusion.
Unfortunately, people forget about simple statistics; their is something known as reverse causation. Perhaps there are fundamental factors at play, such as inequality of opportunity (or targeting, etc.) that lead to above-average criminal rates that have NOTHING to do with those individuals (black males), but instead are functions of the outside environment.
Or, perhaps when you adequately control for other environmental factors, the case that there is something wrong with black male America falls to the wayside.
Let's think.
i don't remember anyone concluding that here. They just stated the actual statistics. Most of us are aware of the cause of the statistics.
No, basic reading comprehension would suggest that the use of the statistics was to suggest the direction of the cause.
The use of the statistic was to show the reason for the large number of police Black confrontations. The underlying reason for the statistic is not what we are discussing. That would be the subject of a different thread and I would probably agree with you on there as most would.
Incorrect, again.
Race is a simplistic explanation to a much more wide-ranging problem, in which police-civilian confrontations are inherently dangerous and variable on the threat-assessment ability of the cop in question. Add to that the kind of overbearing, power-craving personality that pervades most police departments, the "respect mah authoritah!" mindset, and you start to get to the root of the problem, particularly when you think about the overcriminalization of the law in this country, the "three felonies a day" idea.
Sure it does. If we're going to measure dicks, 22+ years in a steel foundry with ~70% black employees from all walks of life on top of my time enlisted in the army might do that too.
At least I see where you are coming from in that race isn't THE issue- but to dismiss it outright is just as wrong as claiming it as the ONLY factor.
For the most part, I agree- it's not the main issue...it is an important factor and an underlying cause (one). Again- I'm not claiming racism as a reason someone is shot...bias based on appearance certainly plays a part though...regardless of the skin color of the officer.
I wasn't implying it shouldn't be relevant, I was saying based on everything I read and hear post-incident it's not generally relevant to the people who are the most vocal in their outrage and the tenets of the movement.
I agree most of the incidents seem on their surface to be more competence/preparedness related than acts of racism, but I'm also of the mindset where I don't like to try and peer into someone's heart and judge intent.
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Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
What the hell does industry-leading, award-winning interactive foreign language software have to do with this?
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In comment 13134543 David in LA said:
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.
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
You just keep proving my point how you are incapable of dealing with any opposing views and deal with that by acting like a child, throwing a temper tantrum and calling others you disagree with names. Just because you don't like the facts I have brought into the discussion because they dont fit into your little narrative bubble is your shortcoming.
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In comment 13134571 giant24 said:
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In comment 13134543 David in LA said:
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.
Eric Holder: ""It's a question of being honest with ourselves and racial issues that divide us," Holder told reporters in a hastily arranged news conference. "It's not easy to talk about it. We have to have the guts to be honest with each other, accept criticism, accept new proposals."
You obviously can't do this so maybe you should let the adults in the room discuss/debate.
Yet, you have no willingness to listen and acknowledge the other side of the coin, you'd rather parrot statistics you have a very base grasp of. Why would I go down that rabbithole with a shitstain like you and madcow? You two only post on these topics to stir the pot, not listen and understand. Spare me with your claim at any sort of moral high ground, you two provide nothing, only looking to antagonize. So kindly, go get fucked. There are other posters who I may not see eye to eye with whose opinions I will respect, because they are making earnest efforts to try and understand things better. You are human garbage.
You just keep proving my point how you are incapable of dealing with any opposing views and deal with that by acting like a child, throwing a temper tantrum and calling others you disagree with names. Just because you don't like the facts I have brought into the discussion because they dont fit into your little narrative bubble is your shortcoming.
I have never, not once, seen any post from you that has an iota of empathy or understanding for what others say. You have dug your heels in and will never say anything or acknowledge anything that will challenge your worldview and opinions. It's similar to madcow. And before you say I'm wrong, let me remind you that you have the opportunity to prove it right now - say something to prove me wrong.
Just in case this was directed at me, I wasn't even aware of a Charlotte shooting. I was speaking about Tulsa et al
Depends on your personal slant and what you (colloquially) are predisposed to believe or want to believe.
Any time there is a police officer involved shooting with a black victim, many people will begin their opinion that race was a factor and the main factor. sometimes it is. Many times it's not, but many people don't believe it's not no matter the circumstances.
Any time there is a bombing conducted by someone with a Muslim sounding name, many people assume terrorism, however the rub is that many of the same people in the first group will urge caution before jumping to conclusions about the details of the second type of incident urging people to not make assumptions about the motive and classifying likely terrorist activities as workplace violence.
It's very obvious if you try and view things objectively from afar (not that I can any more than anyone else who tries to have an open mind), it's like the American "incident playbook" based on each person's political/social views.
kapernick sits down, and seriously, who cares, he's allowed to. i knew the media and everyone were going to ballistic, and i was dreading that, because it would get stupid crazy. all you have to do is read the comment sections in the op-eds to realize how ignorant, emotional, and non-fact based people's opinions are.
i knew tons were going to say it was disrespecting the military and the flag and bla-bla-bla, even though his protest had nothing to do with that, it had to do with police shooting/killing/murdering blacks in disproportionate numbers. obviously, this is a major problem and needs to be solved asap.
i just want it to stay out of sports.
kapernick sits down, and seriously, who cares, he's allowed to. i knew the media and everyone were going to ballistic, and i was dreading that, because it would get stupid crazy. all you have to do is read the comment sections in the op-eds to realize how ignorant, emotional, and non-fact based people's opinions are.
i knew tons were going to say it was disrespecting the military and the flag and bla-bla-bla, even though his protest had nothing to do with that, it had to do with police shooting/killing/murdering blacks in disproportionate numbers. obviously, this is a major problem and needs to be solved asap.
i just want it to stay out of sports.
Dunedin81 : 4:29 pm : link : reply
was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Right now you have the police version that a plainsclothed officer was trying to issue a warrant for the victim's arrest, and as he saw the man approach the car, he exited the vehicle with a weapon. After being given orders to freeze and after the officer identified himself as such, the man retreated to the car and again emerged with a weapon. He was then shot. There were backup officers on the scene as they knew the warrant was being issued.
Yesterday, The family's version was that the victim was innocently sitting in his car reading a book waiting for his son to get off the bus. They said every day he reads a book, waits for the son and gives him a hug. The family says there wasn't a gun.
However, the family wasn't present, so they don't know what the man was doing.
Here's what is known. The man was being issued a warrant. Police and eyewitnesses both said the man exited the vehicle. A cousin that claims he's a witness said the object in the man's hands was a book. But police found a gun and no book.
Today's tone has been a little different. Community black spokespeople have said that even if the victim had a gun, if he didn't aim it then the killing is murder and they are saying that the man lived to give his son a hug every day, hugs his son will never get again. The daughter screamed yesterday that white cops killed her Dad - today the family can't be found to give a statement. Apparently they have been in the process of being evicted for the past month.
So yesterday, we heard about a hard-working Dad who lived to see his son and who read every day waiting for him. A great man who was a friend to all. Today we find out the guy has an arrest record, was in the process of getting arrested again and that the family has been close to eviction for some time.
This is exactly why I hate people jumping to conclusions. Hell, we already have protesters holding up signs saying "It was just a book".
By dishonoring the National Anthem you are dishonoring
all the Americans that sacrificed their lives, limbs and mental health In WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam and the Middle East.
Polack, you should move to a communist country, you would fit right in.
Polack, you should move to a communist country, you would fit right in.
A PUNK like you would last 5 minutes in East Harlem.
However, the family wasn't present, so they don't know what the man was doing.
Here's what is known. The man was being issued a warrant. Police and eyewitnesses both said the man exited the vehicle. A cousin that claims he's a witness said the object in the man's hands was a book. But police found a gun and no book.
NO Scott was not issued a warrant . The police were LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS ISSUED A WARRANT and thought Scott was the guy BUT THEY WERE WRONG.t
there is zero evidence yet by the Police that in fact there was a gun. until the video is released .. it is the Police's story vs Eye witnesses who have said he always carried a book and had a book not a gun on that day.
But here is the interesting point .In North Carolina, open-carry of a handgun is legal. Concealed carry is also legal, so long as you have a permit.
Quoting a lawyer in NC “The mere possession of a handgun does not give the police probable cause or reasonable suspicion to briefly detain you for stop and frisk, The mere fact that you have a handgun isn’t enough – it’s legal in N.C"
CMPD said Keith Lamont Scott had a gun. Was that reason enough to order him to drop it? - ( New Window )
Where was this outrage when Tim Tebow was doing pro-life commercials during the Super Bowl? That's a hot button topic that a lot of people don't agree with Tebow on? I guess using sports as a platform to push a political agenda is okay if its in line with your beliefs. Smh.
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But who tunes in to watch a protest? It's a commercial endeavor, not a soapbox. Why is the NFL obligated to give them a platform?
Where was this outrage when Tim Tebow was doing pro-life commercials during the Super Bowl? That's a hot button topic that a lot of people don't agree with Tebow on? I guess using sports as a platform to push a political agenda is okay if its in line with your beliefs. Smh.
You mean the same Tim Tebow that is out of the league despite having a winning record and is just as good if not better than most back up QB's? Yes there was controversy around that too.
The guy is a leader and won games including a playoff game on a team that Orton was not able to win with. Guy is worth at least a back up spot in the league but the media hype was too much of a distraction for his talent ability to deal with. No agenda here buddy.
I said he was worthy of a back up spot. The guy has won everywhere including the NFL. You do realize the goal is to win and not fantasy numbers? He had had a intangible as a leader and that's why he won while guys with tons of talent like Cutler do not.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
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was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
Not if you are a felon.
But Tebows talent definitely wasn't high enough for any team to want to put up with the circus that would follow if they signed him.
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In comment 13134808 Dunedin81 said:
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was initially described as an unarmed man. Now it turns out he did in fact have a firearm. What he was doing with that firearm remains to be seen. But more than a dozen injured officers and a lot of property damage later, we're finding that fact out, that he was not in fact unarmed. The insistence on jumping to conclusions, on shoehorning things into pre-determined narratives based on scant facts, it has real long-term consequences for the people and the communities involved in this. The intentions are good and the wider concerns absolutely have merit, but the narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny and the people who are capable of rational thought could stand to apply a little, specifically a wait-and-see approach to these incidents.
Except NC is an open carry state, and that absolutely means the law applies to people of color as well.
Not if you are a felon.
So why would they assume he is a felon?