PFF: Josh Norman is playing the best football of his career.

if Player A gives up 5 rec (on 8 tgts) for 50 yds to Dez Bryant and Player B gives up 5 rec (on 8 tgts) for 50 yards to Terrence Williams, does PFF grade those 2 players identically?

The stats that PFF sells to teams are not the same set of stats they sell to the public.

Norman has had major success against elite WRs...shutting down Hopkins week 2 (?) last season. Against Julio Jones, he gave up 80 yards which was the most he gave up since midway through his rookie year.

Not quite shutdown level in the aggregate, but very good. Beckham certainly has the skills to go 100+ and I obviously hope he does, but those acting like its a given he's gonna torch Norman are Panglossian.

Uber athletic corners are IMV the most impressive players in the game. DRC, Patrick Peterson or prime Sanders. Norman is a douche and I hate him as a division rival, but he's fun to watch.

Also, this claim you're making that all these NFL teams put stock in PFF grades is baloney. They use the site for data. Teams have talent evaluators and scouts for a reason.

In comment 13134585 Marty in Albany said:

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I'd much rather have us go up against a trash-talker than a dirty player.

Remember, the battles and smack between Erich Barnes and Bobby Mitchell?

In comment 13134583 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 13134575 gidiefor said: Quote: the OP just admitted that PFF is flawed when it comes to measuring Snacks -- if so -- how can you stand on PFF as proof of anything? I haven't mentioned Snacks once. If you're referring to the fact that I said PFF is flawed, like all statistics in sports, then sure... of course it's not the end all, be all. But it also is useful, and perhaps one of the most useful measurements of success/talent. I don't care to prop up PFF. I care when biased posters pummel PFF when their data doesn't support a biased narrative. That's all that's happening here.

yet you are waiving around PFF as your proof of what you are saying -- and -- even affirmatively stating it's fact because of it -- get a grip dude -- it's your opinion - and it is not fact -- and you don't have supporting facts -- you have a deeply flawed stat measurer that arbitrarily assigns the value of its measurements


-- and I'm not even bothering to regurgitate your Snacks comments above -- if you are denying what you said about Snacks -- then you are just a frikken moron -- moronically and drunkenly swinging and wanting to be bashed

In comment 13134596 Greg from LI said:

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The stats that PFF sells to teams are not the same set of stats they sell to the public.

That was my impression, but MiLB keeps claiming teams rely on these grades. I thought the teams used PFF for snap counts, formation tendencies and other simple stuff like that.

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Do you have any proof of this (repeated) claim? And proof that they use these 'grades', not just PFF for things like snap counts.

I did a quick Google search. Couldn't find the article I read recently that said it was more than 1/2, but this is as of January, 2015 (almost 20 months ago)

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Neil Hornsby isn’t doing this solely as a labor of love, though that’s precisely how his business, Pro Football Focus, began nine years ago in Luton, England, some 30 miles north of London. Living stateside since October, he now counts 13 NFL teams—40% of the league—as clients, including seven teams from this season’s playoff field. He also oversees a staff of roughly 80 full- and part-time employees who watch countless hours of game footage from their home offices in California, Northern Ireland and seemingly everywhere in between.

Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )

In comment 13134603 gidiefor said:

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In comment 13134583 Mike in Long Beach said: Quote: In comment 13134575 gidiefor said: Quote: the OP just admitted that PFF is flawed when it comes to measuring Snacks -- if so -- how can you stand on PFF as proof of anything? I haven't mentioned Snacks once. If you're referring to the fact that I said PFF is flawed, like all statistics in sports, then sure... of course it's not the end all, be all. But it also is useful, and perhaps one of the most useful measurements of success/talent. I don't care to prop up PFF. I care when biased posters pummel PFF when their data doesn't support a biased narrative. That's all that's happening here. yet you are waiving around PFF as your proof of what you are saying -- and -- even affirmatively stating it's fact because of it -- get a grip dude -- it's your opinion - and it is not fact -- and you don't have supporting facts -- you have a deeply flawed stat measurer that arbitrarily assigns the value of its measurements -- and I'm not even bothering to regurgitate your Snacks comments above -- if you are denying what you said about Snacks -- then you are just a frikken moron -- moronically and drunkenly swinging and wanting to be bashed

What the Hell are you talking about? Where did I say anything about Snacks? On this thread? Another one?

Take a breath and re-read the thread. At literally no point, except the exchange with you, did I ever talk about Snacks. Other posters are doing that.

there's gotta be a better use of your time than trying to defend Josh Norman on BBI the week before the team goes up against him (even if you're right).

but the parts I skimmed make no mention of teams paying for their scouting and these "grades" you keep quoting. They are paying for measurable things that PFF provides:

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Pro Football Focus will meet virtually any of its clients’ requests, such as measuring hang time to two decimal points for punts and kickoffs, and tracking which direction a center turns after the snap as a potential indicator of which offensive guard is the weaker link. PFF has also created a computer program that diagrammed each of the 32,779 regular-season plays from the line of scrimmage in 2014, depicting details like wide receiver splits, depth of players off the line, motions, and route combinations. That information is then linked to a team’s video system so coaches can put eyes on what the numbers are telling them.

In comment 13134555 arcarsenal said:

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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.

DRC isn't even the best CB on the Giants!

as definitive proof that Norman is a top 3 guy. By that measure of logic, Dak Prescott was the GOAT in week 1.

He torched Norman last year. The only reason he was under 100 yards was because he dropped a sure TD on a play when he ran by Norman as if he were standing still.

In comment 13134613 Metnut said:

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there's gotta be a better use of your time than trying to defend Josh Norman on BBI the week before the team goes up against him (even if you're right).

21 days till puck drop. It's all I have :)

In comment 13134606 Mike in Long Beach said:

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Quote: Do you have any proof of this (repeated) claim? And proof that they use these 'grades', not just PFF for things like snap counts. I did a quick Google search. Couldn't find the article I read recently that said it was more than 1/2, but this is as of January, 2015 (almost 20 months ago) Quote: Neil Hornsby isn’t doing this solely as a labor of love, though that’s precisely how his business, Pro Football Focus, began nine years ago in Luton, England, some 30 miles north of London. Living stateside since October, he now counts 13 NFL teams—40% of the league—as clients, including seven teams from this season’s playoff field. He also oversees a staff of roughly 80 full- and part-time employees who watch countless hours of game footage from their home offices in California, Northern Ireland and seemingly everywhere in between. Sports Illustrated - ( New Window )

PFF is giving teams data they are requesting. Doesn't say anything about teams using PFF's grades as part of that data.

you may or may not of said about Snacks

I stand by my assessment that you deserve a puck in the mouth - and that you are plain and simple asking for it -- and that you have no facts to back anything up if you are citing PFF as fact

In comment 13134619 David in LA said:

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as definitive proof that Norman is a top 3 guy. By that measure of logic, Dak Prescott was the GOAT in week 1.

How about this one? Pretty basic #



What else do we wanna use?

what great CB's do. That alone is reason enough that he can't be in the upper echelon of CB's, despite being paid the most.

Again, he's great at what he does, but they don't ask him to do what the great CB's do. Mostly because he can't.

In comment 13134628 gidiefor said:

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you may or may not of said about Snacks

Really? Sorta seems like you... didn't read right... and now you're back tracking

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-- and I'm not even bothering to regurgitate your Snacks comments above -- if you are denying what you said about Snacks -- then you are just a frikken moron -- moronically and drunkenly swinging and wanting to be bashed

These are your words.

Anything else?

I like them

In comment 13134637 gidiefor said:

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I like them

That's fine. Just be a grown-up and admit you read it wrong. You can still call me an idiot for my stance on Norman, but at least have enough dignity to admit you started your argument on a false-pretense and thought I posted something that I didn't. It's okay.

shadows Beckham, so we know where Norman is. Lets go straight up. Norman is going to try to talk his through, Without moving his feet. Hopefully Beckham's ability will determine the outcome.

To separate Norman from his scheme, extensive analysis is required. I used the Pre-Snap Reads Analysis Method to go through all 19 games that he played last year. The method is explained in greater detail here, but it essentially looks at every single play a cornerback plays and tracks whether he successfully carried out his assignment or not. It only includes plays where the cornerback and receiver were in fair one-on-one situations. Despite playing 19 games last year, Norman only had 253 qualifying plays. Darrelle Revis had 375 when he played 19 games in 2014. Revis and Richard Sherman have consistently been the best performers in these analyses over the years. Their success rates have hovered around 81 percent for the most part. Any rate over 80 percent is very impressive, while quality starters primarily stay above 75 percent.

Norman finished with a 69.96 percent success rate in 2015. As a one-on-one defender, Norman is below average. He shouldn't be asked to play man coverage in space on a regular basis. When he does play man coverage, he is typically at his best bailing away from the line of scrimmage at the snap. This is because he can't jam receivers in press at the line of scrimmage.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13134618 Keith said:

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In comment 13134555 arcarsenal said: Quote: Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is. DRC isn't even the best CB on the Giants!

I think he is but Jackrabbit has been outstanding and I can see making the argument that he's been the best CB on the Giants so far this year. I think they're both better than Norman.

That's the other thing.. 2 games have been played so far. Two. And Fekker is acting like 5 passes defended are part of some major sample. It's so ridiculous.

And have fun. PFF sucks, Norman is slow, only plays well with two deep coverage, and if he plays straight man on OBJ will give up 150 yards with ease. I'm out!

Josh Norman, CB, Washington Redskins: Despite garnering serious consideration for the 2015 Defensive Player of the Year award after a stellar campaign that eventually earned him a $75 million contract from the Redskins, the Pro Bowler isn't considered a "shutdown" corner by traditional standards. Norman is a "clue" corner adept at pattern-reading and keying the quarterback from distance in a zone scheme that enables defenders to play with vision from off coverage. Although Norman gained some experience playing bump-and-run coverage during his time in Carolina, there are serious concerns about whether he possesses enough speed and athleticism to thrive in a scheme that prominently features man coverage.

Now, I know Norman routinely challenged premier receivers -- including the likes of Dez Bryant, Odell Beckham Jr. and Julio Jones -- at the line of scrimmage in recent years, but there are plenty of instances on tape where his lack of elite speed and burst could've resulted in big plays down the field (see: Beckham's drop against Norman in the first quarter of their rowdy matchup last season). In fact, I had an AFC North personnel director suggest that Norman could get "exposed" if he had to match up with a premier WR1 and shadow him for four quarters of coverage.

While I have the utmost respect for Norman's playmaking ability as a zone corner, I don't believe his skills are conducive to playing the role of a CB1 in every system. With a move to the NFC East and intriguing matchups dotting the schedule, the football world might soon see if Norman is the lockdown corner he claims to be.

Link - ( New Window )

I've been so impressed with Jenkins. I think he's ascending whereas DRC is descending. I know it's only been 2 games and I'm projecting a bit.

In comment 13134646 Keith said:

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To separate Norman from his scheme, extensive analysis is required. I used the Pre-Snap Reads Analysis Method to go through all 19 games that he played last year. The method is explained in greater detail here, but it essentially looks at every single play a cornerback plays and tracks whether he successfully carried out his assignment or not. It only includes plays where the cornerback and receiver were in fair one-on-one situations. Despite playing 19 games last year, Norman only had 253 qualifying plays. Darrelle Revis had 375 when he played 19 games in 2014. Revis and Richard Sherman have consistently been the best performers in these analyses over the years. Their success rates have hovered around 81 percent for the most part. Any rate over 80 percent is very impressive, while quality starters primarily stay above 75 percent. Norman finished with a 69.96 percent success rate in 2015. As a one-on-one defender, Norman is below average. He shouldn't be asked to play man coverage in space on a regular basis. When he does play man coverage, he is typically at his best bailing away from the line of scrimmage at the snap. This is because he can't jam receivers in press at the line of scrimmage. Link - ( New Window )

Game. Set. Match.

and fair.

of 30 by 24 days. He just turned 30 the month he signed the deal. Norman is 18 months younger. That is all.

Steelers didn't throw at Breland because he was a hack. On the first TD, Norman's guy was open by several yards. Ben threw to Brown but Breland had better coverage than Norman on the play. Coates was WIDE open on Norman. How is that factored into the PFF grade? It isn't.

His time is coming. And please save this thread for a good laugh by year end.

Norman is not the best CB. Not close. He's a good player. Physical and good with his hands. But he can't run with elite WR. We will see it this week if they are dumb enough to match him up with Beckham with no help.

In comment 13134621 Greg from LI said:

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He torched Norman last year. The only reason he was under 100 yards was because he dropped a sure TD on a play when he ran by Norman as if he were standing still.

Given what else went on in that game, I'm not sure torched is the right word, but Beckham and then Jones a week later were the "worst" 2 games Norman had last season.

Don't want to make it sound like I'm Team Norman because I hope he gets embarrassed on Sunday on the Giants' way to 3-0, but I do think he's a really good player. He makes some insanely athletic plays.

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Game. Set. Match.

Just a reasonable counter-argument. Rare around these blue-tinted parts.

In comment 13134654 Keith said:

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I've been so impressed with Jenkins. I think he's ascending whereas DRC is descending. I know it's only been 2 games and I'm projecting a bit.

Fair opinion to have, Jenkins is certainly an ascending talent who is just coming into his own. So far, he looks like he's going to be worth every penny. I love the way he plays.

You are quoting statistics about passes being completed on a CB, but not factoring in that 1 CB is covering a WR wherever they go and another is covering a WR in a small flat zone. How is that graded the same way?

.

to the quality of Norman's coverage, which was lacking. If Odell keeps his head on straight, Norman can't stop him.

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I'm not surprised that Giants fans VenteSette : 1:58 pm : link : reply don't want to give Norman any credit, but what about Washington's coaching staff? It seems that the Giants passing game is more balanced than Dallas. I think it would have made more sense to have him shut down Dez and let Beasley try to beat them than having him chase Beckham around while Cruz and Shephard are out there.

The WAS coaches had him all summer and felt he wasn't good enough to bump Breland from his assignments.

CAR coaches felt he wasn't good enough for the franchise.

But PFF? They have the inside info with their grade? OK.

WAS overpaid for a player who simply isn't worth it. Nothing more to say. We'll see it on the field very soon.

In comment 13134664 David in LA said:

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.

Certainly not, nor did I say it was, but I know you know that.

This was the exchange

Dave: You can't only go by PFF.
Mike: OK, how about this?
Dave: You can't only go by passes defended.

It was just an additional statistic which you stated I needed, then quickly forgot you did that, I guess.

it's too early, and too small of a sample size to be making proclamations taht this guy is a top 3 anything.

In comment 13134643 Mike in Long Beach said:

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In comment 13134637 gidiefor said: Quote: I like them That's fine. Just be a grown-up and admit you read it wrong. You can still call me an idiot for my stance on Norman, but at least have enough dignity to admit you started your argument on a false-pretense and thought I posted something that I didn't. It's okay.

son -- you don't know what a grown up is

.

they go by "advanced statistics" to support whatever BS claim they have made. I dont know how good Josh Norman has been this year. I know he didnt guard Brown much, and the same with Dez. So if he has done a job on the 2nd/3rd team wide receivers, great for him. However, Brown had over 120 yards and 2 TDs and Dez went for over a 100 yards - so the 2 big time threats werent stopped.

Norman didnt cover OBJ last year for a damn. He struggled with Julio as well. He is a good corner who exclled because his whole defense excelled.

And sorry pass defended? Horrible stat. Ronald Darby is still chasing Decker and Marshall all over the field.

In comment 13134555 arcarsenal said:

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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.

DRC isn't even the best CB on his team right now and played significantly less snaps than Apple, a rookie.

What purpose does this serve on a Giants forum? I just don't get it.

Ben didn't go at him in the PIT game. Doesn't mean he did a good job covering WR2 and WR3. He did NOT do a good job covering Coates and Rodgers. Those guys had no problem getting open on Norman.

It's only a matter of time. If he shadows Beckham, I'm confident the fall of Josh Norman starts this week.

and the Skins always double the other guy, why wouldn't teams always line their best receiver across from Norman to get single coverage?

In comment 13134747 KWALL2 said:

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Ben didn't go at him in the PIT game. Doesn't mean he did a good job covering WR2 and WR3. He did NOT do a good job covering Coates and Rodgers. Those guys had no problem getting open on Norman. It's only a matter of time. If he shadows Beckham, I'm confident the fall of Josh Norman starts this week.

Yeah I didnt watch much of him in the Pitt game. So ii'll take your word for it. Like I said before he couldnt cover OBJ last year. He was jsut successful getting into his head. If OBJ keeps his demeanor of just kicking his ass.... Eli is going for 400 this game.

In comment 13134749 chris r said:

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and the Skins always double the other guy, why wouldn't teams always line their best receiver across from Norman to get single coverage?

Because they've been toasting Breeland. Why change what's working?