Among the many times I'm beaten up on this site, the only time I actually care is when it's relation to the Giants. Last year I called Norman the best corner in the league and a whole lot of posters called me an idiot for it. Now I'm fully aware that the formula for full-on devastation on BBI is to not only start a thread tooting your own horn, but to do so utilizing PFF data. But that's what's happening. Josh Norman is the best corner in the NFL, IMO. Denial only makes it worse. At the absolute very least he deserves to be in the conversation, if not leading the pack.
I love that he's this good, because if we were to have the #1 receiver in the NFL (I think we have #2) it would make this rivalry even more fun. As it stands, it's still fucking fantastic.
There were then, and still are great arguments for other cornerbacks. But Norman is indisputably top 3, if not #1.
| Through two games, Redskins CB Josh Norman is the league’s leading cornerback, with a 91.6 overall grade—a higher mark even than his 87.9 from last season. |
Some thoughts on Norman not shadowing the best receivers in the game thus far:
When Norman faced Antonio Brown and Dez Bryant in Weeks 1 and 2, respectively, he kept a clean sheet across the board. The problem people have, though, is that he hasn’t done it enough. Many see tracking a No. 1 receiver as a necessary step to being classified as an elite corner, regardless of the fact that it’s not the cornerback’s decision to make.
Seahawks CB Richard Sherman is arguably the best cornerback in the game right now, but that comes with an asterisk to many because he isn’t asked to follow top receivers; guys like Jets CB Darrelle Revis and Cardinals CB Patrick Peterson are. Seattle believes the defense is better overall when keeping Sherman on one side and leaning coverage away from him to help the other side, allowing the No. 2 corner to have help from safeties buzzing down from bracket coverage, generally reducing the amount of space a great receiver can utilize to beat him. |
More PFF Norman content here. - (
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Reminds me of when I used to try and piss people off around here except I honestly don't think Mike is doing it on purpose
Not BBI. Just Fekker.
OK. Giants defense isn't good. Collins hasn't improved. Shepherd is nothing. Etc.
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not only playing his best football, but he's the best in the league. Wow. BBI never disappoints.
Not BBI. Just Fekker.
I literally copy & pasted the headline from the article. Not my words.
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not only playing his best football, but he's the best in the league. Wow. BBI never disappoints.
OK. Giants defense isn't good. Collins hasn't improved. Shepherd is nothing. Etc.
Link?
Reminds me of when I used to try and piss people off around here except I honestly don't think Mike is doing it on purpose
Giants... again, I encourage you to actually read the exchange before commenting. It took me till post 7,307,501 to post the "passes defended" stat. I was asked by Dave to provide an additional measurement because PFF wasn't good enough. So I literally went to the first measurable I could find and he was at the top of the list. So I posted it.
I know you know that I know passes defended in 2 games means next to nothing. I was simply adding more detail. Obviously my OP was the crux of my point.
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while tied with 4 others players to pad your argument is laugh out loud funny.
Reminds me of when I used to try and piss people off around here except I honestly don't think Mike is doing it on purpose
Giants... again, I encourage you to actually read the exchange before commenting. It took me till post 7,307,501 to post the "passes defended" stat. I was asked by Dave to provide an additional measurement because PFF wasn't good enough. So I literally went to the first measurable I could find and he was at the top of the list. So I posted it.
I know you know that I know passes defended in 2 games means next to nothing. I was simply adding more detail. Obviously my OP was the crux of my point.
Gotcha, Mike. I just found the vagueness of the stat funny. Granted, I only skimmed the entirety of the thread. Anyway. PFF doesn't take common sense and what your eyes actually tell you into consideration. It's the equivalent of looking at a box score and using it to determine who played well and who didn't.
It's admittedly only partially about Norman. There's only so many times I can read that someone "sucks" when they're in fact awesome. There needs to be some sort of counter to the biased talk on this guy here. I don't get why one can't be a Giant fan and still acknowledge talent. I can't count how many times Tony Romo, DeSean Jackson, Dez, McNabb, and countless others have been trashed. I get hating them, but denying they're good? Bizarre. With Norman it's been so over the top. Everyone is looking for an excuse to prove he's average, but if he were, then what fun would it be when Beckham owns him this weekend?
Hahaha, definitely didn't see that coming. Thank you.
What sucks is when Beckham lights him up this week I'm gonna look like an asshole. But what else is new, I guess.
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What purpose does this serve on a Giants forum? I just don't get it.
It's admittedly only partially about Norman. There's only so many times I can read that someone "sucks" when they're in fact awesome. There needs to be some sort of counter to the biased talk on this guy here. I don't get why one can't be a Giant fan and still acknowledge talent. I can't count how many times Tony Romo, DeSean Jackson, Dez, McNabb, and countless others have been trashed. I get hating them, but denying they're good? Bizarre. With Norman it's been so over the top. Everyone is looking for an excuse to prove he's average, but if he were, then what fun would it be when Beckham owns him this weekend?
That has to be the craziest shit I've heard in a long time. So in essence you want to build Norman up ( and in the process piss off many) just to hope that Odell kills him and prove Odell is great? Wow what a really long freaking journey that is for a not so much return. By the way I don't believe that's your intention at all. I believe you are just some dude who woke up this morning and was bored to hell and thought this was a good way to kill time.
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In comment 13134742 map7711 said:
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What purpose does this serve on a Giants forum? I just don't get it.
It's admittedly only partially about Norman. There's only so many times I can read that someone "sucks" when they're in fact awesome. There needs to be some sort of counter to the biased talk on this guy here. I don't get why one can't be a Giant fan and still acknowledge talent. I can't count how many times Tony Romo, DeSean Jackson, Dez, McNabb, and countless others have been trashed. I get hating them, but denying they're good? Bizarre. With Norman it's been so over the top. Everyone is looking for an excuse to prove he's average, but if he were, then what fun would it be when Beckham owns him this weekend?
That has to be the craziest shit I've heard in a long time. So in essence you want to build Norman up ( and in the process piss off many) just to hope that Odell kills him and prove Odell is great? Wow what a really long freaking journey that is for a not so much return. By the way I don't believe that's your intention at all. I believe you are just some dude who woke up this morning and was bored to hell and thought this was a good way to kill time.
Why can't it also be my attention along with me looking for a way to kill time? But fortunately I don't even have to defend myself on this one as the same posters I'm exchanging with now I also exchanged with then. So they certainly know my opinions and intentions, even if they disagree with them.
And a long journey? It's a football message board thread. Settle down, Francis. If stating Josh Norman is excellent pisses people off, that's OK with me.
Right, so I guess the rest of the league was wrong about DRC when he hit free agency? Cmon, look at the contracts the two players have. Norman is clearly better than DRC.
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I'm not surprised that Giants fans
VenteSette : 1:58 pm : link : reply
don't want to give Norman any credit, but what about Washington's coaching staff? It seems that the Giants passing game is more balanced than Dallas. I think it would have made more sense to have him shut down Dez and let Beasley try to beat them than having him chase Beckham around while Cruz and Shephard are out there.
The WAS coaches had him all summer and felt he wasn't good enough to bump Breland from his assignments.
CAR coaches felt he wasn't good enough for the franchise.
But PFF? They have the inside info with their grade? OK.
WAS overpaid for a player who simply isn't worth it. Nothing more to say. We'll see it on the field very soon.
Didnt the Giants potentially do that with Vernon too? Jenkins? Snacks? Or are we all basing are opinions on all four players after two fucking games?
Every team overpays in FA. You can be overpaid and still be a top 5 player at your position.
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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.
Right, so I guess the rest of the league was wrong about DRC when he hit free agency? Cmon, look at the contracts the two players have. Norman is clearly better than DRC.
It sucks trying to get an honest discussion going when people just start their argument with the most absurd claims.
How do you discuss anything from that starting point. I love DRC and actually do think he's very underrated, but there's not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with NFL outside of this board who would take DRC over Norman. It's just absurd.
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In comment 13134792 Mike in Long Beach said:
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In comment 13134742 map7711 said:
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What purpose does this serve on a Giants forum? I just don't get it.
It's admittedly only partially about Norman. There's only so many times I can read that someone "sucks" when they're in fact awesome. There needs to be some sort of counter to the biased talk on this guy here. I don't get why one can't be a Giant fan and still acknowledge talent. I can't count how many times Tony Romo, DeSean Jackson, Dez, McNabb, and countless others have been trashed. I get hating them, but denying they're good? Bizarre. With Norman it's been so over the top. Everyone is looking for an excuse to prove he's average, but if he were, then what fun would it be when Beckham owns him this weekend?
That has to be the craziest shit I've heard in a long time. So in essence you want to build Norman up ( and in the process piss off many) just to hope that Odell kills him and prove Odell is great? Wow what a really long freaking journey that is for a not so much return. By the way I don't believe that's your intention at all. I believe you are just some dude who woke up this morning and was bored to hell and thought this was a good way to kill time.
Why can't it also be my attention along with me looking for a way to kill time? But fortunately I don't even have to defend myself on this one as the same posters I'm exchanging with now I also exchanged with then. So they certainly know my opinions and intentions, even if they disagree with them.
And a long journey? It's a football message board thread. Settle down, Francis. If stating Josh Norman is excellent pisses people off, that's OK with me.
You are the very definition of passive aggressive.
Slip O' the Lip.
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In comment 13134555 arcarsenal said:
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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.
Right, so I guess the rest of the league was wrong about DRC when he hit free agency? Cmon, look at the contracts the two players have. Norman is clearly better than DRC.
It sucks trying to get an honest discussion going when people just start their argument with the most absurd claims.
How do you discuss anything from that starting point. I love DRC and actually do think he's very underrated, but there's not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with NFL outside of this board who would take DRC over Norman. It's just absurd.
Care to justify that statement, or is it only opinion?
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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.
Right, so I guess the rest of the league was wrong about DRC when he hit free agency? Cmon, look at the contracts the two players have. Norman is clearly better than DRC.
Are you new to the NFL? By your logic, Tavon Auston is better than Brandon Marshall because he makes more money.
Norman is not "clearly" better than DRC and if your only metric to go by is the contract he was given by the Redskins (because we all know they've never overpaid for anyone before...) then you're not paying attention.
Why didn't Carolina want Norman back? They literally had no issue whatsoever letting him walk away.
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In comment 13134555 arcarsenal said:
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Josh Norman isn't even the best CB in the division. DRC is.
Right, so I guess the rest of the league was wrong about DRC when he hit free agency? Cmon, look at the contracts the two players have. Norman is clearly better than DRC.
It sucks trying to get an honest discussion going when people just start their argument with the most absurd claims.
How do you discuss anything from that starting point. I love DRC and actually do think he's very underrated, but there's not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with NFL outside of this board who would take DRC over Norman. It's just absurd.
LOL, yes.. I am the one making the absurd claim. Not you who is calling PFF grades "facts"..
Can you prove that there's "not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with the NFL" who would take DRC over Norman? Of course you can't.. but I'm the one who's making absurd claims.
Your lack of self-awareness is truly astonishing.
Norman is a good corner. He sure as hell isn't the best one in the league. Go watch some Cardinals games and tell me he's better than their top CB. He's not. His man coverage skills aren't good enough for him to deserve this rep. You'll realize it on Sunday when he tries to cover Beckham and gets roasted just like he did last year.
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He torched Norman last year. The only reason he was under 100 yards was because he dropped a sure TD on a play when he ran by Norman as if he were standing still.
Given what else went on in that game, I'm not sure torched is the right word, but Beckham and then Jones a week later were the "worst" 2 games Norman had last season.
Don't want to make it sound like I'm Team Norman because I hope he gets embarrassed on Sunday on the Giants' way to 3-0, but I do think he's a really good player. He makes some insanely athletic plays.
He barely covered Beckham and I'm sure he was rarely on Jones too. Can't give him credit if he's not covering guys, and in Carolina,mhe stayed on one side most of the time
yes indeedy !
Can you prove that there's "not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with the NFL" who would take DRC over Norman? Of course you can't.. but I'm the one who's making absurd claims.
Your lack of self-awareness is truly astonishing.
Norman is a good corner. He sure as hell isn't the best one in the league. Go watch some Cardinals games and tell me he's better than their top CB. He's not. His man coverage skills aren't good enough for him to deserve this rep. You'll realize it on Sunday when he tries to cover Beckham and gets roasted just like he did last year.
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If you're taking DRC over Norman, simply put, you aren't worth discussing football with. It's an idiotic thought.
PFF isn't nonsense and Norman isn't some system made JAG. But PFF grades still have like a 70% accuracy in my eyes and that's for an entire seasons worth of data. We're talking about 2 games here, April baseball stats are always taken with a grain of salt and baseball stats are a lot better than football grades. Norman has had 7 passes thrown in his direction I believe.
I like the fact that you made this "lose-lose" thread because i do think it's noteworthy that he's grades so highly despite being trashed by the public for not taking on the Antonio Brown challenge and only switching to Dez late.
But 2 games and PFF doesn't mean much. I think he's susceptible to being beaten over the top. Odell did it to him last year and DeSean was doing it in practice often according to the reports. Can't wait to see it.
Can you prove that there's "not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with the NFL" who would take DRC over Norman? Of course you can't.. but I'm the one who's making absurd claims.
Your lack of self-awareness is truly astonishing.
Norman is a good corner. He sure as hell isn't the best one in the league. Go watch some Cardinals games and tell me he's better than their top CB. He's not. His man coverage skills aren't good enough for him to deserve this rep. You'll realize it on Sunday when he tries to cover Beckham and gets roasted just like he did last year.
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If you're taking DRC over Norman, simply put, you aren't worth discussing football with. It's an idiotic thought.
I'd love to hear you elaborate on why it's an "idiotic" thought.
Because PFF told you it is?
Josh Norman doesn't do the things that elite CB's do. You literally came here today and said "PFF says Norman is the best corner in the NFL so he is"
Doesn't mean I think he's a bad player, doesn't mean he sucks. If you're running the type of system Carolina or Washington runs, he's a good fit in those systems. To me, if you're not locking players down 1 on 1 and can't run with the best WR's in the game, you don't deserve to be called the best CB in the game nor do you belong in the conversation.
A guy who has spent most of his time dropping into a Cover 3 doesn't deserve the rep people like you give him.
I've seen DRC man up on top tier WR's and shut them down. Is he still in his prime? Maybe not. But he's an elite athlete with legit coverage ability. He's not a system guy. He thrived in Denver as a cover corner, he's also done it here. He was miscast in Philly.
I can't say I've ever seen Josh Norman lock up man to man on a top tier WR for 4 quarters and hold him down. Have you? He brags about the stat lines he "held" guys like Jones and Hopkins to but he was only covering them when they were running routes in his area.
If the Redskins are going to shift their approach and let him shadow Beckham on Sunday I can promise you it won't be pretty for him and you'll see exactly what I mean. His only saving grace might be the fact that Breeland sucks so much that Shepard will probably have a field day against him.
and another against Hilton
You guys can hate him all you want,but he's a good player.
Looking at the bigger picture, he conveniently forgot that the Giants gave Carolina all they could handle while DC got violated by the same team. Vi. O. La. Ted.
This game can't get here quick enough. I may need to take a four-day weekend and pop enough ambien to wake up at kickoff.
You're not engaging it because you can't come up with anything to counter on your own. You're ridiculously transparent and getting hung up on something that isn't even vital to the conversation.
You think he's the best CB in the league because PFF says so. Forget DRC, Mike.. explain to me what sets Josh Norman apart from Patrick Peterson or why he's better than Chris Harris Jr or Richard Sherman. In your words, tell me what he does better.
Can you prove that there's "not a pundit or coach or anyone else associated with the NFL" who would take DRC over Norman? Of course you can't.. but I'm the one who's making absurd claims.
Your lack of self-awareness is truly astonishing.
Norman is a good corner. He sure as hell isn't the best one in the league. Go watch some Cardinals games and tell me he's better than their top CB. He's not. His man coverage skills aren't good enough for him to deserve this rep. You'll realize it on Sunday when he tries to cover Beckham and gets roasted just like he did last year.
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If you're taking DRC over Norman, simply put, you aren't worth discussing football with. It's an idiotic thought.
The reason why people dismiss your dumb ass posts and you as a poster is because you make flippant, antagonistic, irresponsible statements like this. All the while quoting a rag like PFF.
Your original post is such a "look at me" piece of shit attempt at trying to gain empathy for your dumb ass comments, it just furthered the cause that Mike in Long Beach is a punk and a schmuck.
Nice work Mike.
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As long as it frees up VC and SS AND CO., i can live with that
thank you. why are there 3 threads on this dooshbag? who gives a fuck? He's famous because the Giants best player was too immature to be satisfied simply to do his job and torch the asshole and help win a game.
To be fair, I remember back here on BBI when Richard Sherman taunted Tom Brady post game people literally asking "WTF is Richard Sherman?".
Between that and the Crabtree incident in the NFC Championship game a year later, a decent percentage of a top CB's hype is the trash talk they bring. If Sherman never did those two things he'd still be good, but the perception wouldn't be quite as good.
Unfortunately the Beckham incident has made Giants' fans not as objective in their view of him just like Niner fans and Richard Sherman. It's just reality.
Both CBs play one side, both have great supporting personnel and coaching. A lot of similarities there. Carolina might have had a better front 7 than the Seahawks but their secondary was never quite as good as the Earl Thomas/Kam Chancellor combo (combined with Pete Carroll's cover 3 scheme). In critical pass rushing situations, the Michael Bennett/Cliff Avril combo was probably better than Greg Hardy and their other DE.
Sherman always got benefit of the doubt while Norman hasn't.
Another thing Norman has going over Sherman was that he was never accused of the subtle illegal contact the Seahawks had gotten away with years ago and might still be doing now.
Joe Haden never had anywhere near the level of support of these other guys in Cleveland, so maybe people should be talking him up as the best CB in the game right now.
Really a silly thing to get worked up on, because the issue of whether a CB is shutdown or not doesn't change a whole lot in the grand scheme of how good a defense really is.
Why did Carolina show little effort in retaining his services? They thought he was good, but certainly not worth the price tag. They had the space to at least retain him for the money earmarked for the franchise tag. They let him go without wanting any compensation.
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I'm not even engaging in this. It's downright absurd. If any non-Giant fan stumbled upon this place and saw people saying DRC is better the would get quite a laugh.
Why did Carolina show little effort in retaining his services? They thought he was good, but certainly not worth the price tag. They had the space to at least retain him for the money earmarked for the franchise tag. They let him go without wanting any compensation.
Engaging the kid in real discourse is an exercise in futility. He probably still has a subscription to MAXIM.
To enact such hypocrisy, contradictory logic, and brute stupidity upon a group of people with such ferocity and indignation is actually a kind of accomplishment.
Mike, you said Norman was good before PFF did. You called it! You're such a fucking hipster genius, I'm in awe. Thank you for correcting all us wee BBIers in our ignorance of your greatness and that of the greatness of the PFF champion of the secondary: Josh Norman. Can we proceed with not being pretentious little fucks now, who nitpick and self-congratulate every other post?
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In comment 13135121 Mike in Long Beach said:
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I'm not even engaging in this. It's downright absurd. If any non-Giant fan stumbled upon this place and saw people saying DRC is better the would get quite a laugh.
Why did Carolina show little effort in retaining his services? They thought he was good, but certainly not worth the price tag. They had the space to at least retain him for the money earmarked for the franchise tag. They let him go without wanting any compensation.
Engaging the kid in real discourse is an exercise in futility. He probably still has a subscription to MAXIM.
LMAO