Also there are plenty of times when cops shoot unarmed white men also. So based on your reasoning how do you explain that?
Oh... well that means it's ok I guess.
Of course not, but you inferred it was because of race.
What other difference is there between the two? Age? Financial status? Those are more valid reasons in your eyes?
Umm perceived threat?
The point is that if cops shoot BOTH black and white men and the common denominator rightly or wrongly is a perceived threat.
I'm talking about in these two specific cases steve.
OK so if I post a link to two other cases where in one an unarmed white man was shot and in the other a black man was tazed does that prove anything?
I remember reading about two or three times this summer where an unarmed white man was shot by police. It happens, and the better question is about police training and if there can be improvements. Making claims based on only two cases and inferring it is about race in IMO unproductive.
If you can do it, please feel free. But remember, it has to be under the same circumstances where the white person wasn't (or perhaps I should say shouldn't have been) a perceived threat and the black person was please.
Thanks!
Did you show where in your example of the tazing that police thought he was possibly armed and made a move which could be interpreted of going for a weapon?
You posted about some psycho eating someone face, but that doesn't translate into a precised threat towards the police when they arrived.
With all do respect T-Bone, I often agree with your reasoning on things but you seem to be a little all over the place on this one.
that's why even though it was a black police officer in Charlotte people didn't care
But people did care. It was initially reported that it was a white officer.
I don't think it would've blown up if the first few hours weren't covered thinking this was a white officer shooting an unarmed black man.
Maybe you're right, but there have been other cases of police violence where the police officers were black and it hasn't mattered, if you listen to many of the protestors it's police vs black people not white police vs black people.
Freddie Gray is an example.
3 of th3 6 officers involved were black and 3 were white. How did that make a difference?
we need to be working towards understanding one another, not trying to "fix" other people's thinking.
If you are having trouble understanding T-Bone's thinking, focus on this quote of his a little longer.
Quote:
What other difference is there between the two? Age? Financial status? Those are more valid reasons in your eyes?
What is helpful is to learn about tracking. T-Bone sees these incidents and sees a racial issue. He's not alone. There are lots of people just like him, and they aren't wrong just because you have some logical argument to the contrary.
Ask yourself - what do you track? It would be helpful to do some self-analysis and learn when and why you track, then you will better understand when and why others track. Doing this will help us better understand why people are upset and also help us see how we can heal some wounds as a nation.
That's all I got for this thread. Great discussion though.
Did you show where in your example of the tazing that police thought he was possibly armed and made a move which could be interpreted of going for a weapon?
If you're referring to the Tulsa shooting, that's based on the officer's description of the events, which are being disputed based on what appears to be the window being up and blood on the window in the video from the copter. And it's not the 'tazing' that's the issue... it's the shooting with a gun that's the issue.
Quote:
You posted about some psycho eating someone face, but that doesn't translate into a precised threat towards the police when they arrived.
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Quote:
With all do respect T-Bone, I often agree with your reasoning on things but you seem to be a little all over the place on this one.
I think I'm being pretty clear on my stance. But if you need me to explain something further please let me know what you're confused by.
there does not appear to be any objective reason for the officer to pull the trigger. subjective fear does not count as a sufficient reason.
hopefully charges are also laid against the north Miami officer who shot an unarmed behavioural specialist who was trying to coax his autistic patient out of the street and was following all orders, had his hands in the air etc
I agree he is one of the better posters, one who I respect greatly. And if you are talking to me I certainly am not trying to "fix' his thinking LOL.
He posted the two examples and inferred because of those examples the reason was race, and since this is a discussion I responded.
I also have great respect for you too steve. I consider you to be a good poster and man. That's why I'm responding back to you (when I can... I'm now at work and you know how that is...).
I'm not trying to 'fix' your thinking either but try to show you why most black folks are feeling the way they do. It's hard to understand how a white kid who's killed and fought officers DOESN'T get shot and yet a man who is simply standing there... posing no imminent threat (again, except for the one that the officer made up in her mind)... does. One cop thought it was ok to tase him... the other thought to shoot him. If he was that much of a threat, why didn't they both go for the guns?
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black?
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
Fuck the police comin' straight from the underground Â
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
RE: Fuck the police comin' straight from the underground Â
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
It's hard to understand how a white kid who's killed and fought officers DOESN'T get shot and yet a man who is simply standing there... posing no imminent threat (again, except for the one that the officer made up in her mind)... does.
Except there ARE unarmed white guys who get killed (Deven Guilford, Seth Adams, Daniel Shaver, James Boyd, etc), but those stories don't advance anyone's narrative so their stories aren't hyped to the same degree.
Yet again - racializing police brutality as an issue elides its true nature and root causes.
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
He very well may have I have no idea and unless anyone knows that police officer intimately they cant really know either.
And now we are leaving one discussion of police shooting unarmed men into another one entirely about whether this policeman would have shot this man when once wrestling with him a gun was pulled.
The thing is that obviously there are going to be a variety of reactions in a variety of different situations. And we can cherry pick any one or two and draw broad conclusions.
I still believe that these tragedies largely occur because of fear and a perceived possible deadly threat for the officers involved. That why you see both black and white police involved and black and white victims involved. Sure some react poorly because of that fear and perceived threat while others are more trained, possibly more heroic, possibly even place a greater value on the life of others than some of their peers. But IMO is still comes down to them reacting, rightly or wrongly to a perceived possible deadly threat.
If others want to believe police are targeting people because of their color that is their choice, I haven't seen evidence of that.
I do think the question about training and improving police awareness and response is a valid and good one that needs to be looked at by police departments across the country. But then you get into budgets ans money which many cites are short of.
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
Quote:
Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
Quote:
WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
question in the same realm as that, should it be more alarming to see race killing same race at a record rate as opposed to cop killing a certain race? mad regardless but it sucks there is more unity towards the police(which is also more televised) then lets say the chicago killings (which is still opposed by the people but not as televised or kept by the media)
is that the seeds of this have been sown over decades and decades. Video cameras are ubiquitious, things are being caught on tape more. But one thing worse than a borderline case being caught on video, is a borderline case not being caught on video and then framed in the police report to look like a slam dunk when victims and eye witnesses know it's bullshit. I still can't and won't trust a police report related to a shooting if there wasn't a video, and I see no reason why to (they have incentive to make it look better, this is not even a question).
Subject the same communities to this mechanism (which, I want to interject, is perfectly understandable from the police POV... the failure lies with the government and society allowing police to police themselves and not have a better watchdog type of arm).... but yeah, subject the same communities to the same stuff for years and you're surprised they don't trust cops?
All this stuff we see on tape isn't news to black people.
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
question in the same realm as that, should it be more alarming to see race killing same race at a record rate as opposed to cop killing a certain race? mad regardless but it sucks there is more unity towards the police(which is also more televised) then lets say the chicago killings (which is still opposed by the people but not as televised or kept by the media)
Uh it's OBVIOUSLY more alarming to see police actors have a propensity towards killing a certain race. What kind of a question is that? And why does it "suck" there is more unity than there is towards "chicago killings" (everyone's favorite diversion).
These are the fucking police. This is the antithesis to their position in society. Criminals killing people is not news, they are fucking criminals. Sorry for being brash but this line of thinking really needs to be stomped out.
That couldn't possibly sound more made-up if you tried.
It's real, most states have something like it, where it's generally a misdemeanor but jumps to a felony charge based on history of the offender. It's similar to assault.
Quote:
2903.21 Aggravated menacing. (A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person's unborn, or a member of the other person's immediate family.
Should not be the lone justification to get killed.
Its not smart and it may get you tased or land you in jail, but shot? This isn't some 3rd world country. We have due process.
Blaming the victim is BS. What if the person has a medical condition? What if they are experiencing some sort of a mental break down and can't respond like "normal" person. What if they are hearing impaired? What if they are mentally handicapped?
I had a situation back in the mid 90s where had the situation was different, I could have been shot. Probably justifiably. I had been up for over 36 hours. Highly stressful job. Just got thrown under the bus by my boss. Not happy. Got pulled over by a cop on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Cop was very angry from the start because he had been trying to get me to pull over for several miles. I was so fatigued I didn't even notice. The interaction was confrontational from the start. Because of the area where I had pulled off was so close to the oncoming traffic, the cop asked me to move the car back about 20 feet. I slammed the car in reverse and punched it. Slammed on the brakes before hitting the police cruiser. At this point, the officer could have interpreted this as threat. The police office started screaming at me for almost hitting him. At this point, I told him to STFU and just write me my GD ticket. I was not thinking clearly. Here are the take aways from this:
1. I should not have been driving.
2. I should have been arrested.
3. I could have been shot.
4. I was not even given a ticket for speeding, failing to pull over, almost hitting the officer and his car.
5. I was given a warning even after I verbally abused him.
If I was black (I'm Asian) on the south side, what do you think would have happened to me?
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
Quote:
Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
Quote:
WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
Can police really afford to assume it's not a gun when a person is not following their orders?
The one often common denominator in these situations is generally the person not following instructions given to them be the police.
Forget for a moment whether you believe she should or shouldn't have believed he made a move that could have been interpreted as possibly going for a weapon.
If you were a police officer and believed someone may possibly have a gun and instructed them accordingly and they didn't listen and instead made a move towards what could be a weapon would you wait to see if he first fired a gun at you or shoot when he made the move? Or to take it a step further do you really expect that of our police officers?
I never said that it did. Does that then mean that only whites are killed for reasons other than race? No it doesn't. Is there a means of determining which killings were driven primarily by race? No, not really. So why is that just about the only angle of approach for public discussion of police brutality?
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
Quote:
Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
Quote:
WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
That no one got shot.
As it pertains to this case it is an example of how you can handle a situation where there was a blatant and obvious threat to the officer's lives, yet they didn't shoot anyone.
Whereas in the Tulsa case, the threat is not nearly as obvious (some arguing that there was not threat at all) yet there is a dead man.
To me, it shows the disparity in threat assessment and reaction.
how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
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Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
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WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
You posted about a white man in florida who murdered people and was eating their faces off when police came and didn't shoot him when they could have. You opined that if he were black they likely or possibly would have shot him.
You asked for examples where something similar, police perceived a threat, where the suspect was black and police didn't shoot him.
that's the example I provided. There are hundreds of them.
It is a matter of not getting the same benefit of the doubt.
Then we come full circle back to how there are unharmed white men who are also shot.
Steve, you can't just go by raw numbers. Perhaps this article may help you out. While your absolutely correct police shoot unarmed white men, unarmed black men are 5 times more likely to be shot and killed by police.
Certainly, there could be other factors involved, but it's hard to dismiss that Black men aren't being persevered as more dangerous.
To me, it shows the disparity in threat assessment and reaction.
Do you really have the ideal that every police officer in every city in the country will react exactly the same to all variety of people and situations they encounter?
Again, as we discussed on a earlier thread, messages to a dumb population, which America is, are simple. That's the only way that they are effective. Linking police brutality to race is an effective means to galvanize support among people who actually care about society moving forward.
It's the reason why the Libertarian message is one about liberty (and not all the other important measures they support), and it's why Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party have largely failed. They expanded their simple message.
Shouldn't we expect a uniform response from the police? Â
I never said that it did. Does that then mean that only whites are killed for reasons other than race? No it doesn't. Is there a means of determining which killings were driven primarily by race? No, not really. So why is that just about the only angle of approach for public discussion of police brutality?
It isn't as evidenced by this thread.
It's absolutely the "common" approach and I understand your frustration with that.
Considering our history, (not 1850's, but 60's and beyond) is it that difficult to understand why folks latch onto that narrative?
Even if we can agree that race isn't the determining factor, or that it is just one of many factors, and not always a factor at all, it's still something that needs to be addressed, no?
What's all too common is the stance that it has nothing to do with race, so let's just go ahead and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
To me, it shows the disparity in threat assessment and reaction.
Do you really have the ideal that every police officer in every city in the country will react exactly the same to all variety of people and situations they encounter?
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
Can police really afford to assume it's not a gun when a person is not following their orders?
The one often common denominator in these situations is generally the person not following instructions given to them be the police.
Forget for a moment whether you believe she should or shouldn't have believed he made a move that could have been interpreted as possibly going for a weapon.
If you were a police officer and believed someone may possibly have a gun and instructed them accordingly and they didn't listen and instead made a move towards what could be a weapon would you wait to see if he first fired a gun at you or shoot when he made the move? Or to take it a step further do you really expect that of our police officers?
steve - maybe it comes across as unfair but yes... I'd prefer that an officer be sure there's a threat of a gun before using deadly force (notice I said 'deadly' force and not just force... for example a taser). A taser is fine because at least the person should survive and be taken into custody. They are legally allowed to carry a weapon that can kill someone and therefore they should be held to a standard where they can't just discharge that weapon because they THINK or PERCEIVE there to be a threat. That's what THEY signed up for. They weren't drafted or made to become officers, that's the occupation they chose. As someone said above, what if that person had a bad reaction to some kind of medicine? Is it still ok to shoot first and ask questions later? What if that person is simply having a bad day? Mentally retarded?
There's a reason why tasers were invented. To try and minimize having to kill a person in order to disarm and/or apprehend them. For some reason this woman didn't think having a taser would be good enough for this job but the officer standing right next to her did. Why is that?
Racializing the subject does nothing but exacerbate divisions which then obscure a very real problem that affects a lot of people. We can talk about the stupidity of reflexive reactions all we want, but that's simply human nature and the tribal instinct. Thus, instead of a needed examination of the nature of policing as a whole and the degree to which criminal law negatively pervades all walks of life, we get Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter and a lot of shitflinging all around. And it angers me because it's something I spend an inordinate amount of time preaching about to those around me who almost invariably are pro-cop law and order types (many cops in my mother's family, plus she is an office worker for a LE agency and regards them fondly). You make progress in getting people to examine previously rigid opinions, but then these kinds of arguments tap a mallet on the knee and boom! the leg kicks out again.
Should not be the lone justification to get killed.
Its not smart and it may get you tased or land you in jail, but shot? This isn't some 3rd world country. We have due process.
Blaming the victim is BS. What if the person has a medical condition? What if they are experiencing some sort of a mental break down and can't respond like "normal" person. What if they are hearing impaired? What if they are mentally handicapped?
I had a situation back in the mid 90s where had the situation was different, I could have been shot. Probably justifiably. I had been up for over 36 hours. Highly stressful job. Just got thrown under the bus by my boss. Not happy. Got pulled over by a cop on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Cop was very angry from the start because he had been trying to get me to pull over for several miles. I was so fatigued I didn't even notice. The interaction was confrontational from the start. Because of the area where I had pulled off was so close to the oncoming traffic, the cop asked me to move the car back about 20 feet. I slammed the car in reverse and punched it. Slammed on the brakes before hitting the police cruiser. At this point, the officer could have interpreted this as threat. The police office started screaming at me for almost hitting him. At this point, I told him to STFU and just write me my GD ticket. I was not thinking clearly. Here are the take aways from this:
1. I should not have been driving.
2. I should have been arrested.
3. I could have been shot.
4. I was not even given a ticket for speeding, failing to pull over, almost hitting the officer and his car.
5. I was given a warning even after I verbally abused him.
If I was black (I'm Asian) on the south side, what do you think would have happened to me?
It is a matter of not getting the same benefit of the doubt.
Then we come full circle back to how there are unharmed white men who are also shot.
Steve, you can't just go by raw numbers. Perhaps this article may help you out. While your absolutely correct police shoot unarmed white men, unarmed black men are 5 times more likely to be shot and killed by police.
Certainly, there could be other factors involved, but it's hard to dismiss that Black men aren't being persevered as more dangerous.
Aren't more White People than Black shot and killed by police? Yes and No. - ( New Window )
I don't know if it's possible, but is there a way to normalize based on environment? Would the reaction in a place know to have a higher incidence of crime, violent crime etc, be similar? It's hard to get into individuals' anxiety levels, sense of danger, etc, but it seems reasonable that the context of the interaction, even before the interaction takes place, might play a role.
Of course not. But I'm not the one stating this am I?
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In comment 13137233 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13137206 steve in ky said:
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In comment 13137200 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13137189 steve in ky said:
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In comment 13137184 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13137151 steve in ky said:
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Also there are plenty of times when cops shoot unarmed white men also. So based on your reasoning how do you explain that?
Oh... well that means it's ok I guess.
Of course not, but you inferred it was because of race.
What other difference is there between the two? Age? Financial status? Those are more valid reasons in your eyes?
Umm perceived threat?
The point is that if cops shoot BOTH black and white men and the common denominator rightly or wrongly is a perceived threat.
I'm talking about in these two specific cases steve.
OK so if I post a link to two other cases where in one an unarmed white man was shot and in the other a black man was tazed does that prove anything?
I remember reading about two or three times this summer where an unarmed white man was shot by police. It happens, and the better question is about police training and if there can be improvements. Making claims based on only two cases and inferring it is about race in IMO unproductive.
If you can do it, please feel free. But remember, it has to be under the same circumstances where the white person wasn't (or perhaps I should say shouldn't have been) a perceived threat and the black person was please.
Thanks!
Did you show where in your example of the tazing that police thought he was possibly armed and made a move which could be interpreted of going for a weapon?
You posted about some psycho eating someone face, but that doesn't translate into a precised threat towards the police when they arrived.
With all do respect T-Bone, I often agree with your reasoning on things but you seem to be a little all over the place on this one.
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that's why even though it was a black police officer in Charlotte people didn't care
But people did care. It was initially reported that it was a white officer.
I don't think it would've blown up if the first few hours weren't covered thinking this was a white officer shooting an unarmed black man.
Maybe you're right, but there have been other cases of police violence where the police officers were black and it hasn't mattered, if you listen to many of the protestors it's police vs black people not white police vs black people.
Freddie Gray is an example.
3 of th3 6 officers involved were black and 3 were white. How did that make a difference?
If you are having trouble understanding T-Bone's thinking, focus on this quote of his a little longer.
What is helpful is to learn about tracking. T-Bone sees these incidents and sees a racial issue. He's not alone. There are lots of people just like him, and they aren't wrong just because you have some logical argument to the contrary.
Ask yourself - what do you track? It would be helpful to do some self-analysis and learn when and why you track, then you will better understand when and why others track. Doing this will help us better understand why people are upset and also help us see how we can heal some wounds as a nation.
That's all I got for this thread. Great discussion though.
He posted the two examples and inferred because of those examples the reason was race, and since this is a discussion I responded.
If you're referring to the Tulsa shooting, that's based on the officer's description of the events, which are being disputed based on what appears to be the window being up and blood on the window in the video from the copter. And it's not the 'tazing' that's the issue... it's the shooting with a gun that's the issue.
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
I think I'm being pretty clear on my stance. But if you need me to explain something further please let me know what you're confused by.
hopefully charges are also laid against the north Miami officer who shot an unarmed behavioural specialist who was trying to coax his autistic patient out of the street and was following all orders, had his hands in the air etc
He posted the two examples and inferred because of those examples the reason was race, and since this is a discussion I responded.
I also have great respect for you too steve. I consider you to be a good poster and man. That's why I'm responding back to you (when I can... I'm now at work and you know how that is...).
I'm not trying to 'fix' your thinking either but try to show you why most black folks are feeling the way they do. It's hard to understand how a white kid who's killed and fought officers DOESN'T get shot and yet a man who is simply standing there... posing no imminent threat (again, except for the one that the officer made up in her mind)... does. One cop thought it was ok to tase him... the other thought to shoot him. If he was that much of a threat, why didn't they both go for the guns?
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black?
Link - ( New Window )
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Quote:
It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
Except there ARE unarmed white guys who get killed (Deven Guilford, Seth Adams, Daniel Shaver, James Boyd, etc), but those stories don't advance anyone's narrative so their stories aren't hyped to the same degree.
Yet again - racializing police brutality as an issue elides its true nature and root causes.
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
He very well may have I have no idea and unless anyone knows that police officer intimately they cant really know either.
And now we are leaving one discussion of police shooting unarmed men into another one entirely about whether this policeman would have shot this man when once wrestling with him a gun was pulled.
The thing is that obviously there are going to be a variety of reactions in a variety of different situations. And we can cherry pick any one or two and draw broad conclusions.
I still believe that these tragedies largely occur because of fear and a perceived possible deadly threat for the officers involved. That why you see both black and white police involved and black and white victims involved. Sure some react poorly because of that fear and perceived threat while others are more trained, possibly more heroic, possibly even place a greater value on the life of others than some of their peers. But IMO is still comes down to them reacting, rightly or wrongly to a perceived possible deadly threat.
If others want to believe police are targeting people because of their color that is their choice, I haven't seen evidence of that.
I do think the question about training and improving police awareness and response is a valid and good one that needs to be looked at by police departments across the country. But then you get into budgets ans money which many cites are short of.
Refresh entire thread and it should show. Happened to me on this thread also.
The public doesn't deserve a police force.
Logic at its finest. Maybe it's time to look at the minimum education standards as well.
#dothoselivesmatter?
Because they weren't perpetrated by police who are allegedly there to protect us.
What a dumb fucking question. Any more brain teasers?
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how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
question in the same realm as that, should it be more alarming to see race killing same race at a record rate as opposed to cop killing a certain race? mad regardless but it sucks there is more unity towards the police(which is also more televised) then lets say the chicago killings (which is still opposed by the people but not as televised or kept by the media)
Subject the same communities to this mechanism (which, I want to interject, is perfectly understandable from the police POV... the failure lies with the government and society allowing police to police themselves and not have a better watchdog type of arm).... but yeah, subject the same communities to the same stuff for years and you're surprised they don't trust cops?
All this stuff we see on tape isn't news to black people.
Quote:
In comment 13137399 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
A young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
and not the other color so police think
they have the authority to kill a minority...
...Fuckin' with me cuz I'm a teenager
with a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin' my car, lookin' for the product,
thinking every nigga is sellin' narcotics.
Hard to believe that was damn near 30 years ago.
Not too much to add other than that perception has certainly survived to today whether you agree with it or not. And that's very disheartening, IMO.
Cam - yes it is.
But to be fair, we as a community haven't helped ourselves in some respects either. We can do a MUCH better job of respecting ourselves as well.
question in the same realm as that, should it be more alarming to see race killing same race at a record rate as opposed to cop killing a certain race? mad regardless but it sucks there is more unity towards the police(which is also more televised) then lets say the chicago killings (which is still opposed by the people but not as televised or kept by the media)
These are the fucking police. This is the antithesis to their position in society. Criminals killing people is not news, they are fucking criminals. Sorry for being brash but this line of thinking really needs to be stomped out.
It's real, most states have something like it, where it's generally a misdemeanor but jumps to a felony charge based on history of the offender. It's similar to assault.
Then we come full circle back to how there are unharmed white men who are also shot.
You can find ALL the evidence on this with a simple search.
The evidence of something (white men being killed by police) in no way precludes the fact that race is a motivating factor in police behavior.
Its not smart and it may get you tased or land you in jail, but shot? This isn't some 3rd world country. We have due process.
Blaming the victim is BS. What if the person has a medical condition? What if they are experiencing some sort of a mental break down and can't respond like "normal" person. What if they are hearing impaired? What if they are mentally handicapped?
I had a situation back in the mid 90s where had the situation was different, I could have been shot. Probably justifiably. I had been up for over 36 hours. Highly stressful job. Just got thrown under the bus by my boss. Not happy. Got pulled over by a cop on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Cop was very angry from the start because he had been trying to get me to pull over for several miles. I was so fatigued I didn't even notice. The interaction was confrontational from the start. Because of the area where I had pulled off was so close to the oncoming traffic, the cop asked me to move the car back about 20 feet. I slammed the car in reverse and punched it. Slammed on the brakes before hitting the police cruiser. At this point, the officer could have interpreted this as threat. The police office started screaming at me for almost hitting him. At this point, I told him to STFU and just write me my GD ticket. I was not thinking clearly. Here are the take aways from this:
1. I should not have been driving.
2. I should have been arrested.
3. I could have been shot.
4. I was not even given a ticket for speeding, failing to pull over, almost hitting the officer and his car.
5. I was given a warning even after I verbally abused him.
If I was black (I'm Asian) on the south side, what do you think would have happened to me?
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In comment 13137367 Les in TO said:
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how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
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Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
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WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
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It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
Can police really afford to assume it's not a gun when a person is not following their orders?
The one often common denominator in these situations is generally the person not following instructions given to them be the police.
Forget for a moment whether you believe she should or shouldn't have believed he made a move that could have been interpreted as possibly going for a weapon.
If you were a police officer and believed someone may possibly have a gun and instructed them accordingly and they didn't listen and instead made a move towards what could be a weapon would you wait to see if he first fired a gun at you or shoot when he made the move? Or to take it a step further do you really expect that of our police officers?
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In comment 13137389 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13137367 Les in TO said:
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how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
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Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
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WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
That no one got shot.
As it pertains to this case it is an example of how you can handle a situation where there was a blatant and obvious threat to the officer's lives, yet they didn't shoot anyone.
Whereas in the Tulsa case, the threat is not nearly as obvious (some arguing that there was not threat at all) yet there is a dead man.
To me, it shows the disparity in threat assessment and reaction.
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In comment 13137389 T-Bone said:
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In comment 13137367 Les in TO said:
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how about this case, a Raleigh man (white), was (1) pointing a shotgun at passing cars (2) pointed the shotgun at an officer (3) pulled a pistol out from a close distance and shot at the officer (and thankfully missed).
in this case, no matter what the skin color of the perp, the officer would have been fully justified in shooting him as his life and the life of civilians were in danger beyond any reasonable doubt.
yet the officer used discretion to subdue the man and arrest him, without a nick or a scratch.
would the officer have taken the same approach if the perp was black? Link - ( New Window )
Exactly my point Les. I'd like to think he would... but... based on my own past personal experiences... and what's been going on lately... well...
T-Bone, there are incidents you can easily find through very basic Google searches if you care to showing similar incidents of all races of suspect and police officer. Some ended with the suspect alive and some dead. it depends on so many factors. I prefer not to think that race is the main motivator in almost any incident, I think it's split second decision making of an officer deciding the level of threat and the proper force to use.
If race plays a part in that it impossible for me to say, but I simply won't pretend to be in the shoes of either party and speculate as to the intent in their heart and mind. I won't do that and I think it's unfair for anyone to do that. But is sure seems like if these officers were compelled to shoot someone just based on their race they could have easily done so here.
One simple google search just now and the first result is the story linked below from July of this year that of course we heard nothing about, because when the person doesn't die it's not news.
In this case I think the person was even intentionally trying to antagonize police.
Quote:
Man arrested after threatening Whitehall officers; gun found in his pocket
Quote:
WHITEHALL, OH (WCMH)–A man was arrested for threatening two Whitehall Division of Police officers while they were eating lunch at a Bob Evans on Wednesday.
The officer who took the report says he and another officer were eating at a table in the restaurant next to a large glass window.
A man, later identified as 47-year-old Gregory Gibson, entered the business and came up to the officers “with an aggressive/angry demeanor.” The officer says Gibson approached his colleague, leaned in, then slowly backed away and said “f*** you” and laughed. The officer said his laugh “felt menacing to the point the restaurant became quiet.”
Gibson turned around and left the business. The officer says he got up and walked to the window to watch him leave. Gibson and another man got into their vehicle. Gibson reportedly turned around and made a gesture as if he were shooting the officer with his fingers.
The two men got into the car and drove around to the window where the other officer was eating. Gibson was reportedly reaching down on the left side of the vehicle towards the floor board. The first officer drew his gun and pointed it at Gibson, telling his colleague he may be in danger. Gibson “slammed on the gas” and drove to the rear of the building, and the officer radioed for assistance.
The officer says he left Bob Evans and went into his cruiser. Gibson reportedly drove around the building and stopped his vehicle behind the cruiser. The officer got back out of his car and drew his gun, ordering Gibson to show his hands. Gibson reportedly began to “reach around inside of his vehicle and did not comply” with the orders.
The second officer came out of the restaurant and pointed his gun at the passenger. Gibson reportedly put the vehicle in drive and began to drive toward the first officer, yelling, “what are you going to do, shoot a black man?” before putting the vehicle back in park.
The second officer said he could see a folding combat knife clipped to Gibson’s pants pocket. Backup officers arrived. Gibson reportedly continued to reach around in the vehicle. Officers removed him from the vehicle. The reporting officer said Gibson would not comply with verbal commands to place his hands behind his back and spread his feet.
Gibson, whose address is listed as Columbus, was arrested for aggravated menacing. Police searched him and located a combat knife, pepper spray, homemade “slapjack” weapon, and a 9mm handgun, which was in his left front pants pocket. Police said it was fully loaded. One of the officers had asked Gibson if he was armed, and Gibson reportedly said no.
Gibson does not have a CCW permit.
The passenger reportedly told the officers that Gibson had been watching the news and was upset with police. Gibson allegedly was driving down E. Broad St. when he saw the two Whitehall Police cruisers at Bob Evans and decided to stop.
Link - ( New Window )
pj - not trying to be a wise guy but I'm not sure what this post is in response to? I'm not sure of the point of it.
You posted about a white man in florida who murdered people and was eating their faces off when police came and didn't shoot him when they could have. You opined that if he were black they likely or possibly would have shot him.
You asked for examples where something similar, police perceived a threat, where the suspect was black and police didn't shoot him.
that's the example I provided. There are hundreds of them.
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It is a matter of not getting the same benefit of the doubt.
Then we come full circle back to how there are unharmed white men who are also shot.
Steve, you can't just go by raw numbers. Perhaps this article may help you out. While your absolutely correct police shoot unarmed white men, unarmed black men are 5 times more likely to be shot and killed by police.
Certainly, there could be other factors involved, but it's hard to dismiss that Black men aren't being persevered as more dangerous.
Aren't more White People than Black shot and killed by police? Yes and No. - ( New Window )
Do you really have the ideal that every police officer in every city in the country will react exactly the same to all variety of people and situations they encounter?
It's the reason why the Libertarian message is one about liberty (and not all the other important measures they support), and it's why Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party have largely failed. They expanded their simple message.
It isn't as evidenced by this thread.
It's absolutely the "common" approach and I understand your frustration with that.
Considering our history, (not 1850's, but 60's and beyond) is it that difficult to understand why folks latch onto that narrative?
Even if we can agree that race isn't the determining factor, or that it is just one of many factors, and not always a factor at all, it's still something that needs to be addressed, no?
What's all too common is the stance that it has nothing to do with race, so let's just go ahead and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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To me, it shows the disparity in threat assessment and reaction.
Do you really have the ideal that every police officer in every city in the country will react exactly the same to all variety of people and situations they encounter?
No. Did I state that anywhere?
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In comment 13137379 steve in ky said:
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It doesn't? Ok... if that's not enough... what about him getting into a physical confrontation with a couple of cops? Is that enough to be perceived as a threat? It appears to take a lot less for some others.
Surely you can understand my point about the difference between a direct deadly threat when it is believed that a person has a gun and one where they don't?
That is my point when responding about those two cases. Not who is more deserving or was more violent in general. Clearly the face eating guy was.
Sorry but no... not in this case. Why assume that he's reaching for a gun? Why not a knife? Or wallet? Or newpaper? Or lollipop? So it's ok to shoot someone just on the perception that they MAY have a gun? And lastly, why not think to tase him first? The other cop did. Why not her?
Can police really afford to assume it's not a gun when a person is not following their orders?
The one often common denominator in these situations is generally the person not following instructions given to them be the police.
Forget for a moment whether you believe she should or shouldn't have believed he made a move that could have been interpreted as possibly going for a weapon.
If you were a police officer and believed someone may possibly have a gun and instructed them accordingly and they didn't listen and instead made a move towards what could be a weapon would you wait to see if he first fired a gun at you or shoot when he made the move? Or to take it a step further do you really expect that of our police officers?
steve - maybe it comes across as unfair but yes... I'd prefer that an officer be sure there's a threat of a gun before using deadly force (notice I said 'deadly' force and not just force... for example a taser). A taser is fine because at least the person should survive and be taken into custody. They are legally allowed to carry a weapon that can kill someone and therefore they should be held to a standard where they can't just discharge that weapon because they THINK or PERCEIVE there to be a threat. That's what THEY signed up for. They weren't drafted or made to become officers, that's the occupation they chose. As someone said above, what if that person had a bad reaction to some kind of medicine? Is it still ok to shoot first and ask questions later? What if that person is simply having a bad day? Mentally retarded?
There's a reason why tasers were invented. To try and minimize having to kill a person in order to disarm and/or apprehend them. For some reason this woman didn't think having a taser would be good enough for this job but the officer standing right next to her did. Why is that?
Its not smart and it may get you tased or land you in jail, but shot? This isn't some 3rd world country. We have due process.
Blaming the victim is BS. What if the person has a medical condition? What if they are experiencing some sort of a mental break down and can't respond like "normal" person. What if they are hearing impaired? What if they are mentally handicapped?
I had a situation back in the mid 90s where had the situation was different, I could have been shot. Probably justifiably. I had been up for over 36 hours. Highly stressful job. Just got thrown under the bus by my boss. Not happy. Got pulled over by a cop on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago. Cop was very angry from the start because he had been trying to get me to pull over for several miles. I was so fatigued I didn't even notice. The interaction was confrontational from the start. Because of the area where I had pulled off was so close to the oncoming traffic, the cop asked me to move the car back about 20 feet. I slammed the car in reverse and punched it. Slammed on the brakes before hitting the police cruiser. At this point, the officer could have interpreted this as threat. The police office started screaming at me for almost hitting him. At this point, I told him to STFU and just write me my GD ticket. I was not thinking clearly. Here are the take aways from this:
1. I should not have been driving.
2. I should have been arrested.
3. I could have been shot.
4. I was not even given a ticket for speeding, failing to pull over, almost hitting the officer and his car.
5. I was given a warning even after I verbally abused him.
If I was black (I'm Asian) on the south side, what do you think would have happened to me?
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In comment 13137434 Cam in MO said:
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It is a matter of not getting the same benefit of the doubt.
Then we come full circle back to how there are unharmed white men who are also shot.
Steve, you can't just go by raw numbers. Perhaps this article may help you out. While your absolutely correct police shoot unarmed white men, unarmed black men are 5 times more likely to be shot and killed by police.
Certainly, there could be other factors involved, but it's hard to dismiss that Black men aren't being persevered as more dangerous.
Aren't more White People than Black shot and killed by police? Yes and No. - ( New Window )