This has always been my opinion. I wrote off Cassels success as something else.
But it's getting tougher and tougher for me to defend this opinion.
Only counter I can offer... People still think MJ is better than LeBron despite a similar argument.
Certain guys are better "bases" of a team, certain guys are better "tips of the spear". Same argument I have for Brady and MJ over Peyton and LeBron at this point. I have nothing else.
For a while, I considered Brady to be just another in a line of unheralded players that Belichick figured out how to develop and maximize their talent. I always felt Belichick was the most important driving factor of the Patriots.
He kept adapting schemes and kept figuring out ways to put Brady in the best position to succeed. Eventually, Brady developed enough that he turned into a phenomenal, legendary quarterback. in his own right. And I want to make it clear that I think Brady plays the position at a phenomenal level.
But because of how much credit I give to Belichick (and how much I realize that football is a team game), I was never persuaded b the argument that Brady was better than Peyton because of rings.
Rather, I always thought Peyton was better because I felt more confidently that Peyton's success was more due to his ability than I could about Brady's success.
But man, 14-5 with Brady's backups is pretty incredible.
Along those lines, the Steelers have an admirable record with Big Ben's backups and so I always think of that when Ben and Eli get compared, knowing how better of a situation Ben was in with Pittsburgh than Eli in New York.
Quote:
MJ's jock
All I'm saying is look at her Cleveland and Chicago did without them. Each Finals vs 1st pick.
He didn't win in Cleveland before he left.
Brady had Moss for a few years. Peyton had Harrison and Wayne for a career.
To me the deciding factor is wins and losses, both in the regular and post season. Peyton's mark of 200-96 (.685) is pretty imcredible and is second all time among QBs who have played at least 100 games. But he's second to Brady, who at 196-60 (.764) is nearly a full tenth of a point ahead of him. But where Brady really separates himself is in the post season, where with all due respect he pretty much wipes the floor with Peyton, posting a career mark of 22-9 (.710). That truly is a ridiculous stat and really does blow the doors off Peyton's 14-13 record (.519). Peyton will be remembered as a surgeon, a veritable coach on the field who won two titles and rode off into the sunset a champion. But until the latter half of his career he struggled mightily in the postseason. Heck, he didn't even have a winning playoff record with the Colts (9-10) despite 11 playoff appearances in 13 seasons (not counting his final year in Indy, in which he sat out). It wasn't until hismfinalmrun with Denver, which we all know was spearheaded by the defense,manat his postseason record eclipsed the .500 mark. Peyton also went one-and-done in the postseason 9 times compared with Nrasy's two.
Like I said earlier, I'm a huge pain Manning. But if I have to pick a quarterback for one game only I'd have to go and Brady .
MAnning had Edge and Harrison. Brady had meh weapons until 2007.
you're arguing a non-provable premise.
it's a stupid argument.
On the same token of you watch the Rams and patriots Superbowl and come away that Brady contributed you should also lost cause credibility... Peyto's second Superbowl only shows that anyone can win the Superbowl, football is ultimate team sport and then you realize Peyton's teams have always been far worse than Bradys teams hence the difference in playoffs and Superbowl wins.
Somehow, some way I don't see the Broncos losing to the Seahawks 43-8 with Brady at WB.
One of the more unique differences between the two teams (Patriots vs. Colts/Broncos) is that the Patriots are Belichick's team whereas Peyton is the coach of any team he plays for.
People get all caught up in that hype, but when both of these teams get punched in the mouth, only one of them can respond.
That Patriot near comeback against the 49ers in 2012 down 31-3 to tie it up was impressive Brady. Don't think Peyton could do that.
Somehow, some way I don't see the Broncos losing to the Seahawks 43-8 with Brady at WB.
One of the more unique differences between the two teams (Patriots vs. Colts/Broncos) is that the Patriots are Belichick's team whereas Peyton is the coach of any team he plays for.
People get all caught up in that hype, but when both of these teams get punched in the mouth, only one of them can respond.
That Patriot near comeback against the 49ers in 2012 down 31-3 to tie it up was impressive Brady. Don't think Peyton could do that.
What about being down 21-3 right before the half against NE in the 2006 AFC Championship game.
I'd take TB over P. Manning. I think it also says something that Brady has spent his entire career playing in New England & the elements, while Peyton played a large chunk of his career in the comforts of a dome.
Both are all time greats though. You really can't go wrong with either one.
Yes
I'd take TB over P. Manning. I think it also says something that Brady has spent his entire career playing in New England & the elements, while Peyton played a large chunk of his career in the comforts of a dome.
Both are all time greats though. You really can't go wrong with either one.
Peyton set records in the elements of Denver!
Quote:
MJ's jock
All I'm saying is look at her Cleveland and Chicago did without them. Each Finals vs 1st pick.
What kind of argument is this? The Bulls still had a 3 peat championship roster and Scottie Pippen, one of the 30 greatest players of all time.
The common talk of Brady not having the weapons that Peyton had is something that I think only rings true if you consider weapons to only be the players who count in fantasy football. Even then, his cast of receivers gets downplayed if you consider that he's had great tight ends throughout his career and that his unheralded receivers were great for the Patriots system.
I'd argue that Brady for the majority of his career had a much better offensive line than Peyton with a highly-regarded offensive line coach which allowed him to stay upright in the pocket to make his reads. If I'm an excellent quarterback, I'd much rather have a great coach and offensive line than have great receivers.
I'd also argue that Brady played in a system-- or rather Belichick's offensive philosophy which has helped the Patriots succeed regardless of injuries and personnel because of how easily versatile it is. The below link is perhaps the best write-up I've seen on the Patriots offense (and it was written by a Jets blog, much to the delight of Sun Tzu).
Also with regard to Brady's postseason performance, we have no idea how he'd do without Belichick, nor how he'd do against Belichick in the postseason for several seasons. Perhaps it's unfair to not know whether Brady would be as successful if he didn't have arguably the greatest coach of all-time and a fantastic defensive strategist on his team for his entire career, so we can only guess.
But with Peyton, there isn't a single player, coach, system, environment, or front office that anyone can point to as a major reason for Peyton's success. He's had great players at various times, and worked with Tom Moore whom people respect tremendously, sure. But Peyton dominated in Indianapolis with Dungy and Caldwell, and then he broke records in Denver with Fox until he physically broke down.
I've never seen a quarterback so thoroughly prove that he was responsible for his own success like Peyton.
http://www.ganggreennation.com/2015/12/23/10644776/jets-patriots-tom-brady-bill-belichick-offense-nyj-new-england-new-york-week-16 - ( New Window )
At least Brady & Manning are contemporaries and played in the same league. If you think Lebron's NBA is the same league as Jordan's NBA outside of the name NBA, you're sadly mistaken.
The Pats are a system. Belichick runs the system around the strengths and weaknesses of every player, every season, and - most remarkably - every game. Belichick makes all the Pats winners, not just Brady. Belichick is the GOAT and if he had Peyton instead of Brady, the Pats would still have all the Lombardis.
The Pats are a system. Belichick runs the system around the strengths and weaknesses of every player, every season, and - most remarkably - every game. Belichick makes all the Pats winners, not just Brady. Belichick is the GOAT and if he had Peyton instead of Brady, the Pats would still have all the Lombardis.
Pure speculation, you are arguing an unprovable point. as many of you are. Just say it's your opinion.
The main argument against that point is if Brady is "just a system QB" why couldn't McDaniels find "a system QB" in Denver? Why can't Bill O'Brien find "a system QB" in Houston, why couldn't Charlie Weis "a system QB" anywhere?
and there are more.
He's not just a system QB. There is no better example of a copycat league than the NFL, and if it were that simple others would have duplicated the system and duplicated the success.
Who has?
No one.
So I've never felt like Brady vs Peyton was a wide gap, and Peyton shrugged off some of his detraction by succeeding in the elements in Denver vs the dome in Indy, but saying Brady is "just a system QB" makes you look foolish.
The Colts won 2 games without Peyton, after averaging more than 12 wins a season for 9 consecutive years. A Brady-less Pats team doesn't skip a beat without him: 11 wins with Matt freaking Castle, they beat a legitimate contender in Arizona on the road with the backup QB and no Gronk, win again the next week and now a rookie comes in on a short week and they keep cruzing along.
Peyton carried those Colts teams. Yes, they had some other talented players, but so does every team -their sustained success was about Peyton. In New England, it's clear there is a lot more to their winning than Brady, and I've thought this for a long time.
Quote:
People think I'm kidding when I say that Brady is a system QB. I'm not kidding. Brady is a great QB, no doubt about it, he puts in the work and makes the reads and hits his targets. I'm not diminishing Brady's ability but if he's playing for any other coach, can you be sure he'd win even a single Super Bowl? I don't think so.
The Pats are a system. Belichick runs the system around the strengths and weaknesses of every player, every season, and - most remarkably - every game. Belichick makes all the Pats winners, not just Brady. Belichick is the GOAT and if he had Peyton instead of Brady, the Pats would still have all the Lombardis.
Pure speculation, you are arguing an unprovable point. as many of you are. Just say it's your opinion.
The main argument against that point is if Brady is "just a system QB" why couldn't McDaniels find "a system QB" in Denver? Why can't Bill O'Brien find "a system QB" in Houston, why couldn't Charlie Weis "a system QB" anywhere?
and there are more.
He's not just a system QB. There is no better example of a copycat league than the NFL, and if it were that simple others would have duplicated the system and duplicated the success.
Who has?
No one.
So I've never felt like Brady vs Peyton was a wide gap, and Peyton shrugged off some of his detraction by succeeding in the elements in Denver vs the dome in Indy, but saying Brady is "just a system QB" makes you look foolish.
Those coaches also did not have Belicheck in their other situations.
This is where I completely disagree. You are looking at it from a fantasy football perspective here and not taking into account how the Pats are constructed, which is a HUGE part of their success. The Pats offense is not built around your prototypical wide out. Watch the Pats offense execute. They have guys that are quick off the release with super reliable hands and can make the contested catch. On 3rd downs they have several of these guys, including pass catching RBs, spread all over the field and the ball comes out so quick to any one of the them and is amazingly difficult to stop. Guys like Branch and Welker may not seem elite, but for the offense they run in NE, these guys were terrors to defend. Then they scheme very well and get the shots down field, but is more of execution and play calling than it is pure talent.
They don't need to spend big cap $$ on highly priced WRs, and can allocate that elsewhere, but the guys they get are amazingly effective for how they run in NE. This is a big part of the equation for their success in NE. Its not about the fantasy numbers -its about executing what they run and converting those 1st downs.
Peyton never had a big body at WR until hitting Denver. You can make a serious case for Demaryius Thomas being the best WR Peyton has ever played with. I'm also not sure Harrison and Wayne have the success they do, or even anything close to it without Peyton (similar to Welker/Edelman with Belichick).
Moss and Thomas are the two best WR's and both had short stints with each QB. I don't think the talent gap is that far off between the 2 QB's especially when you factor in Gronk and the short big very effective time with Aaron Hernandez.
Quote:
In comment 13136881 bigblue12 said:
Quote:
MJ's jock
All I'm saying is look at her Cleveland and Chicago did without them. Each Finals vs 1st pick.
What kind of argument is this? The Bulls still had a 3 peat championship roster and Scottie Pippen, one of the 30 greatest players of all time.
The argument is that the Bulls went to the EC Semis and were a BS call away from beating the Knicks in that series. Without MJ, the Bulls still made a title push and were a Top team in the league. The Cavs went from 60 win contender to worst team in the NBA without LeBron.
That's a very similar argument to how the Pats won 11 games without Brady while the Colts fell apart without Peyton.
I'm confident of one thing; there is no way opposing defenses would allow Peyton to freely walk up and down the LOS barking out his signals without being smashed into the earth as a hard reminder that he's not the only student of the game.
Peyton never had a big body at WR until hitting Denver. You can make a serious case for Demaryius Thomas being the best WR Peyton has ever played with. I'm also not sure Harrison and Wayne have the success they do, or even anything close to it without Peyton (similar to Welker/Edelman with Belichick).
Moss and Thomas are the two best WR's and both had short stints with each QB. I don't think the talent gap is that far off between the 2 QB's especially when you factor in Gronk and the short big very effective time with Aaron Hernandez.
Come on, Brady won three Super Bowls with David Patten, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Troy Brown being his best WR's.
Furthermore, he has Antowain Smith at RB for two of them. Shane Vereen the lead back in another.
It's hard to find a QB who has won Super Bowls with less offensive weapons, plus was MVP.
and when provided some legit offensive weapons (Welker, Moss, etc.) he set all-time records (since broken) but regardless.
Brady vs. Peyton is one of the only modern comparisons of all time great athletes that you can possibly make and that's because they play the exact same position, have the exact same responsibilities, but have completely different skill sets, coaching and personnel. I can't think of 2 other athletes across any other sport that you can have this in depth of a conversation about.
As for the record breaking, I think Rodgers does similar things with Randy Moss, he put up 45 with Jordy when Jordy's previous 3 seasons in the league he had 2 TD's apiece, then vaulted to 15. Peyton definitely sets those records if he had a Moss/TO and he did when he finally got one in Demariyus.
Further, you put Manning (any one will do really, but let's say Peyton) on the Pats with Belichick and I think it's safe to say you'd win just as many Super Bowls as won with TB.
The reason no one else employs the Pats system is because Belichick is the Pats system. He's a genius of the highest order, the GOAT, and he game plans every single week to exploit the weakness of his opponent and leverage the strengths of his own team.
Of course this is pure speculation and my opinion. That's the excercise here.
Brady vs. Peyton is one of the only modern comparisons of all time great athletes that you can possibly make and that's because they play the exact same position, have the exact same responsibilities, but have completely different skill sets, coaching and personnel. I can't think of 2 other athletes across any other sport that you can have this in depth of a conversation about.
Used to have it all the time up here in Boston about Nomar vs Jeter. Boston fans are delusional.
that's of course over now, but it was a legit debate for a while.
And the whole SS position was a big debate in that era with besides Nomar and Jeter you had Arod, Tejada, and even a few Viszquel fans - not counting Ripken at the tail end of his career.
Those were actually fun debates maybe not for GOAT SS, but for best of the era.
SS was stacked backed then in the AL.
Similarly I had a lot of Roy vs. Brodeur debates for GOAT goalie.
Unless I'm missing your point, there are quite a few of these types of debates that make sense
Remember when Brady the for total 133 yards, and had his defense score as many td as the offense and the world gave him all the credit..
Quote:
they played 15-20 years apart, so what's the point? Different games, different league, different everything. I know what I think, but I'm not going to bother making the arguments, its absolutely pointless.
Brady vs. Peyton is one of the only modern comparisons of all time great athletes that you can possibly make and that's because they play the exact same position, have the exact same responsibilities, but have completely different skill sets, coaching and personnel. I can't think of 2 other athletes across any other sport that you can have this in depth of a conversation about.
Used to have it all the time up here in Boston about Nomar vs Jeter. Boston fans are delusional.
that's of course over now, but it was a legit debate for a while.
And the whole SS position was a big debate in that era with besides Nomar and Jeter you had Arod, Tejada, and even a few Viszquel fans - not counting Ripken at the tail end of his career.
Those were actually fun debates maybe not for GOAT SS, but for best of the era.
SS was stacked backed then in the AL.
Similarly I had a lot of Roy vs. Brodeur debates for GOAT goalie.
Unless I'm missing your point, there are quite a few of these types of debates that make sense
I forgot about hockey, so i'll leave that to everyone else since I don't watch. Jeter/Nomar is good, but only 1 is an all time great, and the other had a nice run for a shorter window. There's no way I put Norman in any debate for best ever.
I guess my point was that we just got 15 years of 1st ballot HoF play from what may be the 2 best ever to play the position. Its really the only 2 modern day guys I can think of that can make that claim and where you can have close to a dead even debate on.
Quote:
Won a super bowl with Caldwell as his coach. That should be worth a lot of points to the G.O.A.T discussion right there.
No he didn't
no, but he prob won in spite of Dungy
I am not saying Brady isn't better, I am just saying having BB on the sideline helps alot.
Quote:
In comment 13136977 giantsblue1 said:
Quote:
Won a super bowl with Caldwell as his coach. That should be worth a lot of points to the G.O.A.T discussion right there.
No he didn't
no, but he prob won in spite of Dungy
I was a lil tipsy last night and wrong with my facts. He did however flirt with a undefeated season and make a super bowl with Caldwell.
Peyton never had a big body at WR until hitting Denver. You can make a serious case for Demaryius Thomas being the best WR Peyton has ever played with. I'm also not sure Harrison and Wayne have the success they do, or even anything close to it without Peyton (similar to Welker/Edelman with Belichick).
Moss and Thomas are the two best WR's and both had short stints with each QB. I don't think the talent gap is that far off between the 2 QB's especially when you factor in Gronk and the short big very effective time with Aaron Hernandez.