for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Gut Feeling on the team, it's positive.

Jim in Forest Hills : 9/26/2016 10:23 am
Watching over the first 3 weeks, the biggest positive to me is that the team is talented enough to win. There are no huge talent deficiencies that will cripple the team (barring injury of course).

There are weaknesses at TE and the right side of the OL, but so far I haven't seen them being so exploitable as to derail a season.

However, the Giants have some scary abilities. And Reese has wisely piled them in the same place. The WR core is a nightmare cover. With the OLs strength being pass pro, that bodes well for the offensive output. This is a passing league and they can do it as well as anyone.

On the defensive side the DBs look outstanding. DRC, Jenkins and Apple can blossom into one of the best trios in the league. I thought Jackson's TD was as well covered by DRC as you could get. I love the idea of putting Apple on a move TE like Reed and replacing him with Hall in the slot. The matchup versatility will payoff this season. Collins also has matured into a better player. Collins, Berhe and Thompson bring more range and big hitting than I can remember.

The DL can stone the run. Hankins and Harrison have looked tremendous upfront. JPP and Vernon have also been stalwarts vs the run.

Most importantly they pass the eye test. They are not getting dominated in any one phase with some miracle recovery needed off of a prevent defense. They can move the ball well and they can stop the run. That alone makes me optimistic for the season.

They have been making mistakes in turning the ball over and untimely penalties which as bad as they are, are mental errors which can be corrected. The Giants can do that. They wouldn't be able to infuse new talent. So as disappointed I felt with the loss, the arrow is still pointing up for me on this team. Let's watch if the staff can get the mental aspect working which should let the talent take over.
The problem is  
JonC : 9/26/2016 10:25 am : link
the mistakes are habitual, a few years running, in fact.
RE: The problem is  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2016 10:26 am : link
In comment 13143229 JonC said:
Quote:
the mistakes are habitual, a few years running, in fact.


Yes. It's all well and good to feel that "hey, if they just clean up the mistakes they're in good shape", but it's starting to become a legit question as to whether they can actually do that.
Agree 100%  
SethFromAstoria : 9/26/2016 10:26 am : link
Don't think it will be too many weeks from now before the team looks pretty damn good.
I feel like each week the offense is improving  
Vin R : 9/26/2016 10:27 am : link
Just need to protect the duke
they lead the league  
jintz4life : 9/26/2016 10:27 am : link
in yards per play differential
so how do  
Les in TO : 9/26/2016 10:28 am : link
you clean up the self-inflicted mistakes? force eli or whoever fumbles to do 1000 pushups for each interception? 500 per penalty?
My concern?  
Old Dirty Beckham : 9/26/2016 10:28 am : link
There are a lot of guys on this team who havent won in the NFL. Not talking SB's but a lot of guys who have never had good seasons.

OBJ
Richburg
Jerry
Pugh
Hankins
Jenkins
Vernon
Jennings

Obviously any first or 2nd yr player on the Giants is still figuring out how to win in the NFL.

Yesterday I saw a team that lacked maturity and poise. Players getting ejected, melting down/crying on the sidelines and then players declining to talk to the media.

We'll find out a lot about this team in the next few weeks.
There you all are!  
exiled : 9/26/2016 10:33 am : link
Thank you BBI posters on this thread. It's nice to find some like-minded people.

Jim, if Forest Hills weren't three states away from my home, we could be drinking buddies. Thanks for the thread.
ODB is right  
bignygfan : 9/26/2016 10:39 am : link
on the fact many of our players have not won yet.

That's why it's hard to expect composure in a tight game and it's the reason we may be susceptible to meltdowns. There's a general angst to the team that stems from the players' inexperience.
RE: My concern?  
SethFromAstoria : 9/26/2016 10:41 am : link
In comment 13143241 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
There are a lot of guys on this team who havent won in the NFL. Not talking SB's but a lot of guys who have never had good seasons.

OBJ
Richburg
Jerry
Pugh
Hankins
Jenkins
Vernon
Jennings

Obviously any first or 2nd yr player on the Giants is still figuring out how to win in the NFL.

Yesterday I saw a team that lacked maturity and poise. Players getting ejected, melting down/crying on the sidelines and then players declining to talk to the media.

We'll find out a lot about this team in the next few weeks.


not acceptable but to be expected a bit for a home game, against the division winner, who we normally rape, with Norman there now. Just have to make up for it down the road.
RE: The problem is  
AcidTest : 9/26/2016 10:42 am : link
In comment 13143229 JonC said:
Quote:
the mistakes are habitual, a few years running, in fact.


^This. Yesterday's game would have fit very nicely in last year's losses, as another way we invent ways to lose.
RE: they lead the league  
djm : 9/26/2016 10:50 am : link
In comment 13143239 jintz4life said:
Quote:
in yards per play differential


I'd be curious to see who led that category the last few years so we could see the success rate. Any chance you have that info?
Meh.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/26/2016 10:52 am : link
Look around the league..Carolina 1-2? Even teams with nice records have stuff they're still working through..Very early in the season. And yes, if they don't clean this shit up at least up to the league-wide level, it's going to be a disappointing year, imv
RE: RE: they lead the league  
jintz4life : 9/26/2016 10:57 am : link
In comment 13143318 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13143239 jintz4life said:


Quote:


in yards per play differential



I'd be curious to see who led that category the last few years so we could see the success rate. Any chance you have that info?


2015
1. Cardinals
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks

2014
1. Broncos
2. Seahawks
3. Packers

2013
1. Seahawks
2. Broncos
3. Eagles

2012
1. 49ers
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks

RE: RE: RE: they lead the league  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/26/2016 11:02 am : link
In comment 13143343 jintz4life said:
Quote:
In comment 13143318 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13143239 jintz4life said:


Quote:


in yards per play differential



I'd be curious to see who led that category the last few years so we could see the success rate. Any chance you have that info?



2015
1. Cardinals
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks

2014
1. Broncos
2. Seahawks
3. Packers

2013
1. Seahawks
2. Broncos
3. Eagles

2012
1. 49ers
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks


Not surprising to see those teams. Talent laden playoff teams for the most part.
RE: RE: The problem is  
SethFromAstoria : 9/26/2016 11:08 am : link
In comment 13143296 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 13143229 JonC said:


Quote:


the mistakes are habitual, a few years running, in fact.



^This. Yesterday's game would have fit very nicely in last year's losses, as another way we invent ways to lose.


yeah but you can see how much better talent wise they looked compared to any game last year.
I do, too  
RetroJint : 9/26/2016 11:13 am : link
However you might need a little short-term patience. They should lose the next two games. But I can see big improvement over the course of the season. 9-10 wins. A wipe out of injuries will change that prognosis but they are on an uptick.
RE: I do, too  
Big Blue '56 : 9/26/2016 11:28 am : link
In comment 13143394 RetroJint said:
Quote:
However you might need a little short-term patience. They should lose the next two games. But I can see big improvement over the course of the season. 9-10 wins. A wipe out of injuries will change that prognosis but they are on an uptick.


Nice to see some common sense
I think overall we are heading in the right direction  
Stu11 : 9/26/2016 11:30 am : link
Now don't get me wrong I love Eli. He is a HOF Giant, he won us 2 rings and even better seems like a superb guy. I love him as our QB. That having been said He is been way too much Brett Favre and less Peyton the past 5 years. Now I understand a lot of that is a product of his O-line and lack of protection, but he is simply putting too many balls into harms way. At the game yesterday, you can see even on completions he is constantly throwing to covered guys. Now That is the way of the modern day NFL, throw it up there and expect your guy to win the fight. You can't be a great QB like he is without taking those types of risks(see the end of the Saints game last week). However I feel like he's doing it way too much. He has 3 excellent receivers but they are no tall guys. They have fight and will win some of the battles, but they don't quite have the size and physicality of Nicks or Plax(though Plax quit on routes at times) I'm am the first one to blame Rueben Randle and his shitty loopy slant routes and Shepard quitting on the out against Dallas for INT's. However that end zone throw to Tye is on Eli yesterday as was that horrific throw at the goal line to Vereen that could have been picked by 2 guys. Yes the penalties were the ultimate killer yesterday and no way am I pinning the loss on Eli, but he simply has turned the ball over way too much in the red zone the past few years. Those are back breakers. Its not acceptable to just say "well he's great because he takes risks and we have to live with the downside". This team doesn't have that margin for error. Throw balls up for grabs to Donnell or Tye simply is not a winning play.
I'm afraid  
lugnut : 9/26/2016 11:40 am : link
the "barring injury" caveat is becoming obsolete. Already our stud FS missed a game, and it sounds like his are gonna be nagging kind of injuries. Our starting RT (tho not a stud, to be sure) missed because of injury. RJ missed because of injury. Two of our 3 starting CBs couldn't finish y'day's game.

And another poster had a good point: We're "only" making "mental mistakes" that can be corrected -- yet they DON'T get corrected. I feel like that's been echoing since the early TC days.

Seems we're regressing since game #1. Then we played pretty solidly and got out with a W away. Next we dropped passes left and right but somehow didn't beat ourselves; escaped with a W at home. Now, we don't play particularly well, continue the turnovers, and make "mental errors"; L at home. No, this is not DOOM, I believe we'll even out and it is still early in the season. But McAdoo needs to talk to the team.

ALL that said...yes, the receiving corps is the best I can remember on any Giants team (so is the QB). And in general we are better on paper than we have been in a long time. If we execute, we can compete with anybody.
RE: RE: RE: they lead the league  
djm : 9/26/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13143343 jintz4life said:
Quote:
In comment 13143318 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13143239 jintz4life said:


Quote:


in yards per play differential



I'd be curious to see who led that category the last few years so we could see the success rate. Any chance you have that info?



2015
1. Cardinals
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks

2014
1. Broncos
2. Seahawks
3. Packers

2013
1. Seahawks
2. Broncos
3. Eagles

2012
1. 49ers
2. Broncos
3. Seahawks


Thanks. Reassuring.
RE: I think overall we are heading in the right direction  
djm : 9/26/2016 12:25 pm : link
In comment 13143444 Stu11 said:
Quote:
Now don't get me wrong I love Eli. He is a HOF Giant, he won us 2 rings and even better seems like a superb guy. I love him as our QB. That having been said He is been way too much Brett Favre and less Peyton the past 5 years. Now I understand a lot of that is a product of his O-line and lack of protection, but he is simply putting too many balls into harms way. At the game yesterday, you can see even on completions he is constantly throwing to covered guys. Now That is the way of the modern day NFL, throw it up there and expect your guy to win the fight. You can't be a great QB like he is without taking those types of risks(see the end of the Saints game last week). However I feel like he's doing it way too much. He has 3 excellent receivers but they are no tall guys. They have fight and will win some of the battles, but they don't quite have the size and physicality of Nicks or Plax(though Plax quit on routes at times) I'm am the first one to blame Rueben Randle and his shitty loopy slant routes and Shepard quitting on the out against Dallas for INT's. However that end zone throw to Tye is on Eli yesterday as was that horrific throw at the goal line to Vereen that could have been picked by 2 guys. Yes the penalties were the ultimate killer yesterday and no way am I pinning the loss on Eli, but he simply has turned the ball over way too much in the red zone the past few years. Those are back breakers. Its not acceptable to just say "well he's great because he takes risks and we have to live with the downside". This team doesn't have that margin for error. Throw balls up for grabs to Donnell or Tye simply is not a winning play.


Eli has also fumbled more than any other QB the last X amount of years. Simply put Eli has one glaring flaw in turnovers but we're gonna have to just deal with it. His good far out-weighs the bad but there's no denying his penchant for turnovers even taking into account the lower INT totals 2014-2015.

Gotta improve in the TO department or the Giants will find a way to fuck up a good team once again. Last time it happened was 2010.
RE: RE: I think overall we are heading in the right direction  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13143601 djm said:
Quote:
Eli has also fumbled more than any other QB the last X amount of years. Simply put Eli has one glaring flaw in turnovers but we're gonna have to just deal with it.


The dreaded grip strength issue rears its ugly head again.
I'm with you on the overall positive...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/26/2016 12:28 pm : link
this team lost yesterday, but they didn't look like they didn't belong on the same field with the Skins. That was something that happened quite a bit over the last few years. It's early, and I'm especially looking forward to the Eagles game to see if we've made a jump against them. This week also will tell me something. It won't really be a surprise if we lose to the Vikings in Minny on MNF. What will be telling is if we manage to pull out a win or if we show that we can match their toughness and play with "heavy hands" along the LOS.

Speaking of heavy hands, I think OV might be a lot worse off than he's letting us know. His play has not been as spectacular lately.

Finally, wrt the uneven play, it seems to me that we've had that almost all my life, and so do other teams. In fact, it's the Belichick teams that have been the absolute exception to the rule. I'm not sure what his magic potion is, but would love to get a hold of it. His teams must be practicing differently, because they sure as heck play differently than the rest of the league.
I've adjusted my expectations alittle bit after yesterday.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/26/2016 12:30 pm : link
Not necessarily because we lost a game, even if it was to an inferior team. But moreso because I thought perhaps this team was done with the insane amount of stupid, mind-numbing, penalties and TO's per game. This has been going on for years now. Maybe it wasn't on TC..
RE: I'm with you on the overall positive...  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13143608 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
this team lost yesterday, but they didn't look like they didn't belong on the same field with the Skins.


The hell? Are you kidding? In what way did they look like "they didn't belong on the field" with the shitbag Redskins????
When was the last time this team  
Thunderstruck27 : 9/26/2016 12:32 pm : link
had such a terrible turnover ratio?
RE: RE: I'm with you on the overall positive...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/26/2016 12:33 pm : link
In comment 13143615 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 13143608 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


this team lost yesterday, but they didn't look like they didn't belong on the same field with the Skins.



The hell? Are you kidding? In what way did they look like "they didn't belong on the field" with the shitbag Redskins????


You're reading me wrong. I said they "didn't" look like they didn't belong.

I shouldn't have used a double negative perhaps.
My biggest concern  
Marty866b : 9/26/2016 12:34 pm : link
Spagnuolo. We have more talent on this defense then anytime in the last five years. JPP,Vernon,Hankins,Snacks,Cromartie, and Jenkins IMO are above average players at their position. Apple and Collins also look like they're going to be really good. Our linebackers are nothing special but not God awful. I have a concern with a coach who has been in charge of the two worst defenses in the history of the NFL. In yesterday's game it appeared everytime we brought pressure(extra guys)Cousins was a bit rattled and resulted in incomplete passes. Our pass rush still looks abysmal and most quarterbacks will pick us apart no matter how good our secondary is. So far this season we have just two sacks from defensive lineman and ZERO turnovers in the first three games from the defense. I hope Spags gets more aggressive and gets after the quarterback.
RE: My biggest concern  
Dan in the Springs : 9/26/2016 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13143626 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Spagnuolo. We have more talent on this defense then anytime in the last five years. JPP,Vernon,Hankins,Snacks,Cromartie, and Jenkins IMO are above average players at their position. Apple and Collins also look like they're going to be really good. Our linebackers are nothing special but not God awful. I have a concern with a coach who has been in charge of the two worst defenses in the history of the NFL. In yesterday's game it appeared everytime we brought pressure(extra guys)Cousins was a bit rattled and resulted in incomplete passes. Our pass rush still looks abysmal and most quarterbacks will pick us apart no matter how good our secondary is. So far this season we have just two sacks from defensive lineman and ZERO turnovers in the first three games from the defense. I hope Spags gets more aggressive and gets after the quarterback.


Not too worried about Spags. It looks like he was using the same strategy that worked for him against the Cowboys - give up the field underneath but no long plays. Limit the other team to field goals.

The team actually executed this fairly well with two exceptions.

Take a look at the two TD's that were scored. What happened? The second one was obviously not on Spags. Players were in place to make a big play, and just didn't make it happen. That's not by design and doesn't fall on the DC.

The second one looks like Berhe might have got caught cheating, or maybe he just underestimated DJ's speed. If there was a blitz on the play then you could blame the design, but it looks like the error again was on the player.

It's important as you assess the DC's performance that we look not just at the score but also look closely at why the other team was able to score. While the buck always stops at the HC, I'm not so sure this loss falls on the coaches. The coaches put the players in position to win the game. The players made mistakes at critical moments which allowed the Skins to take advantage and win.
ah, I see  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2016 12:43 pm : link
Yes, the double negative was a bit confusing
Good OP Jim  
ChaChing : 9/26/2016 12:54 pm : link
Overall I like what we have. I like the calls on O with some great weapons, weaknesses aside. D has been great tho we did give up too many big plays (good thing I was playing against Desean Douchebag in FF) and are still awaiting takeaways. The run game is not awful through 3, and we've run a handful of successful called screens (not just dump offs). We seem better in the RZ overall

It is a bit concerning to see the mental mistakes (tho I believe it was mostly due to GN so a 'just against WAS' issue if not the last time). OBJ's hissy fits shouldn't effect others, but in a game that we proved so undisciplined - OL repeatedly screaming in GN's face downfield / getting ejected - I can't help but think he should do better. If nothing else it IS a distraction for those calming him down vs focusing on the field. But at worst it fed into our lack of composure. TBH - knowing the refs planned on kicking him out for anything he should have been more under control, but it is what it is. I don't think it will continue but was disappointed to see it again after the CAR game & lead in to this one (was he really crying? why?)

I never expect any season to be easy whether it's because it's NYG, the NFCe or just parity in the NFL / randomness of health etc. I mean, 2 rook QBs are 3-0 & 2-1, w/ Phi basically being penciled in for last no less
RE: My biggest concern  
CaptSehorn : 9/26/2016 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13143626 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Spagnuolo. We have more talent on this defense then anytime in the last five years. JPP,Vernon,Hankins,Snacks,Cromartie, and Jenkins IMO are above average players at their position. Apple and Collins also look like they're going to be really good. Our linebackers are nothing special but not God awful. I have a concern with a coach who has been in charge of the two worst defenses in the history of the NFL. In yesterday's game it appeared everytime we brought pressure(extra guys)Cousins was a bit rattled and resulted in incomplete passes. Our pass rush still looks abysmal and most quarterbacks will pick us apart no matter how good our secondary is. So far this season we have just two sacks from defensive lineman and ZERO turnovers in the first three games from the defense. I hope Spags gets more aggressive and gets after the quarterback.


The entire complexion of the D changed without Apple and DRC. You don't lose two good man press cornerbacks without having to make concessions. Lots of off coverage and soft zones were the result.
RE: I think overall we are heading in the right direction  
ChaChing : 9/26/2016 1:33 pm : link
In comment 13143444 Stu11 said:
Quote:
Now don't get me wrong I love Eli. He is a HOF Giant, he won us 2 rings and even better seems like a superb guy. I love him as our QB. That having been said He is been way too much Brett Favre and less Peyton the past 5 years. Now I understand a lot of that is a product of his O-line and lack of protection, but he is simply putting too many balls into harms way. At the game yesterday, you can see even on completions he is constantly throwing to covered guys. Now That is the way of the modern day NFL, throw it up there and expect your guy to win the fight. You can't be a great QB like he is without taking those types of risks(see the end of the Saints game last week). However I feel like he's doing it way too much. He has 3 excellent receivers but they are no tall guys. They have fight and will win some of the battles, but they don't quite have the size and physicality of Nicks or Plax(though Plax quit on routes at times) I'm am the first one to blame Rueben Randle and his shitty loopy slant routes and Shepard quitting on the out against Dallas for INT's. However that end zone throw to Tye is on Eli yesterday as was that horrific throw at the goal line to Vereen that could have been picked by 2 guys. Yes the penalties were the ultimate killer yesterday and no way am I pinning the loss on Eli, but he simply has turned the ball over way too much in the red zone the past few years. Those are back breakers. Its not acceptable to just say "well he's great because he takes risks and we have to live with the downside". This team doesn't have that margin for error. Throw balls up for grabs to Donnell or Tye simply is not a winning play.

Know what you mean, but I see another side

Among the top QBs last year (w/ Brady out), Palmer just threw 0TDs/4INTs, Cam 0/3, Wilson & Rodgers hadn't played well til this week. Cousins not playing great (neither completely awful) given he had top #s in 2015. After that the usual suspects - Roethlisbergers, Staffords, Flaccos, Ryans, Rivers-ises all doing that tweener inconsistency thing whether due to their own play or their team's (like Eli)

So while for the sake of argument we can say it's Eli (in part it is), what are fair expectations? For my part, a little improved decision making and decent uptick in short-mid area accuracy would make him a HOF QB guaranteed. But looking at those names, who even has all these traits (maybe Brady, tho we know BB's effect)? And I bet he's worked on them for years so I'm not sure how one goes about expecting to 'fix' it vs just approaching each example as they come up. The fumbling is huge, pressure aside...but not really new either
Thats fair  
Stu11 : 9/26/2016 1:53 pm : link
like I said your not going to completely change him, nor would you want to he's a great QB. He just needs to be a little more careful in the red zone. Not saying to not take a chance just realize whom you are taking the chance with.
RE: The problem is  
Giants2012 : 9/26/2016 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13143229 JonC said:
Quote:
the mistakes are habitual, a few years running, in fact.


I think going in five years qualifies as a tradition.
Back to the Corner