Eli tries to force too many throws to guys like Tye and Donnell. Spreading the ball around is a nice concept, but when there's such a massive dropoff in receiver quality I think it's misplaced.
but Donnell, Tye and Vereen are guys you get involved when they are open, or a safety valve if the primary routes are not there. Too many times Eli threw to these guys when they were covered. You can do that with the WRs and let them go make a play, but not those guys.
RE: at this point, I'd almost rather they went full run and shoot
and simply don't play a TE. Or put Jones at TE to block.
I'd certainly rather see a guy like Dwayne Harris out there as a 4th WR in passing situations than one of our TEs. I don't recall Harris getting any snaps.
RE: Talked about this with my dad while watching the game
Eli tries to force too many throws to guys like Tye and Donnell. Spreading the ball around is a nice concept, but when there's such a massive dropoff in receiver quality I think it's misplaced.
I think "force" is the wrong word. On most snaps, Eli makes his reads, goes through his progressions, and gives the receiver with the most favorable look a chance to make a play. I don't think he cares about "spreading the ball around". If Odell Beckham had man coverage on every play, Eli would probably throw him the ball until the defense did something different.
Now, maybe Eli should show more faith in his excellent wideouts, and less in his mediocre TEs and RBs. That's a different discussion. And neither thesis negates the simple fact that he made some atrocious throws yesterday, including the last one.
throws a better pass on the last play (ie. puts a little air under it and leads Vereen), he has the whole middle of the field to run.
But yes its not a surprise that throws to TE's are more often unsuccessful and should make clear to the rabble which guy is to blame on INT;s most often
and Donnell should be like Pascoe, last ditch outlet guys, a fourth or fifth read. They should mostly be kept in to block, but occasionally released to keep the defense honest. Donnell also has some utility in the red zone because of his height. Using them as second and third options, except rarely, is a misuse of resources.
but Donnell, Tye and Vereen are guys you get involved when they are open, or a safety valve if the primary routes are not there. Too many times Eli threw to these guys when they were covered. You can do that with the WRs and let them go make a play, but not those guys.
Eli also has to make very immediate decisions because he is getting pressured back there. The stats do not tell the story. We all know that our OL is not great overall. They have spurts but nothing truly consistent. Eli's clock in his head is sped up. He doesn't have much time to survey the whole field. Yes, he had some poor throws yesterday but the 2 interceptions had a lot to do with the receivers as well. Tye had a defender over the top. It looked like Manning threw it to Tye's right so he could step in front of the defender to shield him from the ball. Tye never even knew what was happening and the defender made a nice break on the ball. On Vereen's play, I don't know if he was supposed to take the pass up field or not. I thought he should have kept running horizontal to get separation from the defender. Vereen went vertical allowing the defender to recover and cut underneath the pass. The could have gone either way. Eli could have put more air under it but if you do that then the safeties have time to come down and make a play on him. I thought the pass to Beckham where Norman almost intercepted it was one of his worst passes. He was late and behind Beckham. He severely under threw Rainey. Both of those plays were worse than the Tye throw, imo.
I don't disagree with the idea that the Tye throw was not one of Eli's worst. The one Norman dropped, and another easy INT that was dropped deep in the offensive zone were clearly worse. What I took issue with was trying to get it to Tye, who was not open at all. My point was you can do that with OBJ and Cruz and Shepard and if they lose the battle, so be it. But expecting Tye to win the battle is a bad idea, especially when it was first down.
I don't disagree with the idea that the Tye throw was not one of Eli's worst. The one Norman dropped, and another easy INT that was dropped deep in the offensive zone were clearly worse. What I took issue with was trying to get it to Tye, who was not open at all. My point was you can do that with OBJ and Cruz and Shepard and if they lose the battle, so be it. But expecting Tye to win the battle is a bad idea, especially when it was first down.
Mike, there is too much going on for me to be definitive in any statement but that was what I was getting at in the beginning of my post. Eli's clock is sped up. He doesn't have time to really survey the whole field. Well, at least not consistently. He has to make immediate decisions when he sees something. When he saw Tye one on one with the defender behind him he doesn't get the benefit of looking at all the other matchups mid-play and say that Tye is the best option so let me go back to him. He has to make his mind up quickly and having a 6'2 TE on a DB should benefit the offense. It just didn't in that play. I do not mind the decision there. He cannot totally stay away from his other targets and that was an opportunity for us that just didn't work out. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just clarifying what I meant.
That ball should only be intercepted as a Secondary play---a Tip. Tye was the deepest route, on a singe defender. He needs to go up and play that ball. TOTALLY on Tye.
That ball should only be intercepted as a Secondary play---a Tip. Tye was the deepest route, on a singe defender. He needs to go up and play that ball. TOTALLY on Tye.
But that's the problem. Tye isn't a guy we can depend on to make a play. He's a subpar football player, especially compared to the 3 high end WR targets we have on any given play.
A decent proportion of the throws to tight ends and halfbacks are going to be hot reads and check downs when Eli is under pressure or the protection has broken down.
find a legit tight end next year please, watching Tye and Donnell stumble and bumble is getting less exciting.
One of them had a stat line of 3 catches for 11 yards, huh?
Tye hung Eli out to dry on that pick down near the goal line.
He cut off his route, Eli is throwing to a spot there.
The last pick was on Eli.
If you've got a capable receiver on the one on one. Tye is not known for being a ball winner. Rainey is not known for being the go to guy on fade routes in the end zone.
So while I don't necessarily have a problem with the play call, I question the personnel set and, ultimately, the decision to throw the ball in that situation.
Same as the back shoulder throw to Shep that resulted in a pick. That isn't what Shep does well, so why?
If you've got a capable receiver on the one on one. Tye is not known for being a ball winner. Rainey is not known for being the go to guy on fade routes in the end zone.
So while I don't necessarily have a problem with the play call, I question the personnel set and, ultimately, the decision to throw the ball in that situation.
Same as the back shoulder throw to Shep that resulted in a pick. That isn't what Shep does well, so why?
It comes down to poor decisions.
Because the ball goes to the player who has the best matchup and who is open. Rainey was open and the ball was in his gut. Tye had a big mismatch and the guy behind him. You have to trust these players to do their jobs. They are professionals football players.
Its the coaches job to put players in position to succeed. Its the QB's job to throw to players who are position to make plays. If they cant make the plays, then they dont deserve to be on the field and/or team.
TE and RB should get tops 3 looks in the pass game
In comment 13143336 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
I don't disagree with the idea that the Tye throw was not one of Eli's worst. The one Norman dropped, and another easy INT that was dropped deep in the offensive zone were clearly worse. What I took issue with was trying to get it to Tye, who was not open at all. My point was you can do that with OBJ and Cruz and Shepard and if they lose the battle, so be it. But expecting Tye to win the battle is a bad idea, especially when it was first down.
Mike, there is too much going on for me to be definitive in any statement but that was what I was getting at in the beginning of my post. Eli's clock is sped up. He doesn't have time to really survey the whole field. Well, at least not consistently. He has to make immediate decisions when he sees something. When he saw Tye one on one with the defender behind him he doesn't get the benefit of looking at all the other matchups mid-play and say that Tye is the best option so let me go back to him. He has to make his mind up quickly and having a 6'2 TE on a DB should benefit the offense. It just didn't in that play. I do not mind the decision there. He cannot totally stay away from his other targets and that was an opportunity for us that just didn't work out. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just clarifying what I meant.
I'd agree pressure / a faster clock had him moving faster than he was comfortable. I think that's a bigger reason why there have been fewer shots w/ our guys, as well as more involvement of other targets like the TEs (26 to WRs/SV, 12 to the rest)
I also thought he was open. Even if it was a stick route if not an in cut, it seemed Tye was single covered and in one of those box out situations. Had he expected the ball / not stopped / whatever, the ball at least gets knocked down. Not 100% sure what the expectation was there to say it wasn't a misplaced throw since if it was a stick, Eli could have thrown it right at his body. Still Tye's effort wasn't there much like Shep's play iirc in DAL
The SV throw it seemed if Eli hadn't double clutched, his bullet makes it through. Once he did the D had got in place. That's when he might have had the over-the-top throw (yes dependent on the Ss). It's possible SV ran the route incorrectly, but I saw the defender in front and to the right, so the throw had to be left or over but ended up direct to the D who made a great play
Last poster said it perfectly. 3 guys is not one. I understand if you have one great player you spread it around but when you have 3 great guys you don't have to worry at all..at all about spreading it around. Throw to those 3. That is spreading it around enough. If rb, TE are wide open due to those other 3 than yes you throw them the ball. The Rainey drop/pick. Targeting Will Tye who was covered well (yes I know he is a cunt for not going over the middle and actually doing nothing on that pass play) and vereen at the end when he was blanketed were awful..awful decisions.
its not the ol. Our line is the same as most other teams. He is a gambler plain and simple. So when it works we win a SB. When it fails we don't even make the playoffs.
RE: RE:Eli tries to force too many throws to guys like Tye and Donnell
in addition to the pressure, the QB has to deal with throwing lanes. Sometimes WR1 & WR2 are doubled, and the throwing lane to WR3 is closed. The options are to force double-coverage, throw into a clogged throwing lane, or throw to your single-covered TE who has a serious height advantage and has made plays before.
Shit happens man, especially if you live by the passing game, you're sometimes going to die by the interception.
I'd certainly rather see a guy like Dwayne Harris out there as a 4th WR in passing situations than one of our TEs. I don't recall Harris getting any snaps.
I think "force" is the wrong word. On most snaps, Eli makes his reads, goes through his progressions, and gives the receiver with the most favorable look a chance to make a play. I don't think he cares about "spreading the ball around". If Odell Beckham had man coverage on every play, Eli would probably throw him the ball until the defense did something different.
Now, maybe Eli should show more faith in his excellent wideouts, and less in his mediocre TEs and RBs. That's a different discussion. And neither thesis negates the simple fact that he made some atrocious throws yesterday, including the last one.
But yes its not a surprise that throws to TE's are more often unsuccessful and should make clear to the rabble which guy is to blame on INT;s most often
Eli also has to make very immediate decisions because he is getting pressured back there. The stats do not tell the story. We all know that our OL is not great overall. They have spurts but nothing truly consistent. Eli's clock in his head is sped up. He doesn't have much time to survey the whole field. Yes, he had some poor throws yesterday but the 2 interceptions had a lot to do with the receivers as well. Tye had a defender over the top. It looked like Manning threw it to Tye's right so he could step in front of the defender to shield him from the ball. Tye never even knew what was happening and the defender made a nice break on the ball. On Vereen's play, I don't know if he was supposed to take the pass up field or not. I thought he should have kept running horizontal to get separation from the defender. Vereen went vertical allowing the defender to recover and cut underneath the pass. The could have gone either way. Eli could have put more air under it but if you do that then the safeties have time to come down and make a play on him. I thought the pass to Beckham where Norman almost intercepted it was one of his worst passes. He was late and behind Beckham. He severely under threw Rainey. Both of those plays were worse than the Tye throw, imo.
Mike, there is too much going on for me to be definitive in any statement but that was what I was getting at in the beginning of my post. Eli's clock is sped up. He doesn't have time to really survey the whole field. Well, at least not consistently. He has to make immediate decisions when he sees something. When he saw Tye one on one with the defender behind him he doesn't get the benefit of looking at all the other matchups mid-play and say that Tye is the best option so let me go back to him. He has to make his mind up quickly and having a 6'2 TE on a DB should benefit the offense. It just didn't in that play. I do not mind the decision there. He cannot totally stay away from his other targets and that was an opportunity for us that just didn't work out. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just clarifying what I meant.
But that's the problem. Tye isn't a guy we can depend on to make a play. He's a subpar football player, especially compared to the 3 high end WR targets we have on any given play.
A decent proportion of the throws to tight ends and halfbacks are going to be hot reads and check downs when Eli is under pressure or the protection has broken down.
Sure personnel may play a role, but I don't think it's the whole story.
One of them had a stat line of 3 catches for 11 yards, huh?
Tye hung Eli out to dry on that pick down near the goal line.
He cut off his route, Eli is throwing to a spot there.
The last pick was on Eli.
+1
So while I don't necessarily have a problem with the play call, I question the personnel set and, ultimately, the decision to throw the ball in that situation.
Same as the back shoulder throw to Shep that resulted in a pick. That isn't what Shep does well, so why?
It comes down to poor decisions.
So while I don't necessarily have a problem with the play call, I question the personnel set and, ultimately, the decision to throw the ball in that situation.
Same as the back shoulder throw to Shep that resulted in a pick. That isn't what Shep does well, so why?
It comes down to poor decisions.
Because the ball goes to the player who has the best matchup and who is open. Rainey was open and the ball was in his gut. Tye had a big mismatch and the guy behind him. You have to trust these players to do their jobs. They are professionals football players.
Its the coaches job to put players in position to succeed. Its the QB's job to throw to players who are position to make plays. If they cant make the plays, then they dont deserve to be on the field and/or team.
Quote:
I don't disagree with the idea that the Tye throw was not one of Eli's worst. The one Norman dropped, and another easy INT that was dropped deep in the offensive zone were clearly worse. What I took issue with was trying to get it to Tye, who was not open at all. My point was you can do that with OBJ and Cruz and Shepard and if they lose the battle, so be it. But expecting Tye to win the battle is a bad idea, especially when it was first down.
Mike, there is too much going on for me to be definitive in any statement but that was what I was getting at in the beginning of my post. Eli's clock is sped up. He doesn't have time to really survey the whole field. Well, at least not consistently. He has to make immediate decisions when he sees something. When he saw Tye one on one with the defender behind him he doesn't get the benefit of looking at all the other matchups mid-play and say that Tye is the best option so let me go back to him. He has to make his mind up quickly and having a 6'2 TE on a DB should benefit the offense. It just didn't in that play. I do not mind the decision there. He cannot totally stay away from his other targets and that was an opportunity for us that just didn't work out. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just clarifying what I meant.
I'd agree pressure / a faster clock had him moving faster than he was comfortable. I think that's a bigger reason why there have been fewer shots w/ our guys, as well as more involvement of other targets like the TEs (26 to WRs/SV, 12 to the rest)
I also thought he was open. Even if it was a stick route if not an in cut, it seemed Tye was single covered and in one of those box out situations. Had he expected the ball / not stopped / whatever, the ball at least gets knocked down. Not 100% sure what the expectation was there to say it wasn't a misplaced throw since if it was a stick, Eli could have thrown it right at his body. Still Tye's effort wasn't there much like Shep's play iirc in DAL
The SV throw it seemed if Eli hadn't double clutched, his bullet makes it through. Once he did the D had got in place. That's when he might have had the over-the-top throw (yes dependent on the Ss). It's possible SV ran the route incorrectly, but I saw the defender in front and to the right, so the throw had to be left or over but ended up direct to the D who made a great play
Its that simple... dont try to outsmart yourself.
You can scratch your head but he was open and he should have made the catch. The play design was perfect the execution was not.
Shit happens man, especially if you live by the passing game, you're sometimes going to die by the interception.