I think we as Giant fans want so much to pull for him , to applaud him , cheer for him and put our trust in him.
We realize he has all the makings of a great qb , possibly a legend if he reaches his full potential.
He's got 3 powerful wr's in Beckham , Cruz and Shepherd. All in there prime.
And I think it kills all of us Giant fans when he blows it. Not because we hate him , but because deep down inside we want to see him thrive , excel , dominate the NFL.. And win several more superbowl championships.
That's why people are so passionate on this board , cuz they love Eli and want him to reach his full potential....
You're more than welcome to your decision, but doesn't it seem like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to punish BBI for individual posts you don't like?
You keep coming here, don't you? You keep using the site for information on the Giants, don't you? The site offers much more than the Corner, and the Corner offers much more than the posts that "don't make sense," doesn't it?
You don't have to contribute, but that's a really glib, stupid reason not to.
In my 30 plus years of being a Giants fan I can't think of a time where the Giants QB has been under more constant scrutiny then now. It just gets tired.
It sure does. Especially since the guy brought us two Super Bowls and was well on our way to another until Plax shot himself. And the collapse I blame on the staff for not making adjustments to compensate for his absence. Belichik would have upended the playbook and come up with something to counter Plax's absence. Remember we BEAT both SuperBowl teams that year. Eli was the QB.
Do we have a fact checker in the house? Because I'm fairly sure this is false.
Quote:
.
You're more than welcome to your decision, but doesn't it seem like throwing out the baby with the bathwater to punish BBI for individual posts you don't like?
You keep coming here, don't you? You keep using the site for information on the Giants, don't you? The site offers much more than the Corner, and the Corner offers much more than the posts that "don't make sense," doesn't it?
You don't have to contribute, but that's a really glib, stupid reason not to.
I have donated. My comment was a bit much...I've supported this site for a long time.
He also makes some great throws (that never should have been thrown) that work out well.
But, drkenneth is right that discussion has gone down the tubes on BBI (not that it was ever consistently good in the past). trolls, dupes, and allowing abhorrent behavior by some of the regulars has caused degeneration of the corner. regardless of how he phrased it, it's a valid criticism that it's a sketchy decision whether to pay for this setup, especially when the ads are getting more and more annoying/intrusive.
okiegiant : 9/27/2016 11:44 pm : link : reply
Manning is also usually money in the clutch. I had no doubt the Giants were going to win Sunday when they held Washington to 3. I think we always expect him to save the day. The 2 Superbowls kinda get your expectations up.
You are all jumping on the OP, but I am sure you feel the same way.......
We all felt Eli would pull it out.....and then, the announcers started with the "Eli is clutch" in the fourth quarter......once they said that, you knew it wouldn't happen...it seems to happen all the the time when announcers do this, in a negative way...
We tend to look at Eli, as 2011 Eli....we haven't seen that guy for 4 seasons....2011 Eli could carry a team, despite a poor OL, without a running game, and a defense that gave up more points in the regular season than the offense scored.....
In fact, that Eli may be responsible for what has transpired over the years to this offense...in 2011, he did not have a good OL......but somehow he would maneuver in the pocket, get extra time, and find a receiver....the front office must have thought, we can win with any line we put in front of him, because they waited too long to repair/rebuild it...5 years later, it still isn't fixed....
As far as Giant fans are concerned, for the most part, Eli can do no wrong,......the OP was just expressing, how a lot of fans feel....we love Eli....we expect him to come through in the clutch in the fourth quarter, especially with 2 minutes left, 2 timeouts, and all we need is a fg....
Problem is, 2011 Eli is no more....yes we have seen flashes here and there.....but the state of the OL these last 5 years have turned him into what he is now....I think that is what the OP means by reaching his full potential.....2011 Eli did not get rattled....2016 Eli does.....
There is no doubt, Eli is the greatest QB the Giants have ever had....we miss 2011 Eli....the front office failed him miserably, by stunting his growth as a qb, by putting him behind these OL's of the last 5 years....
Shame on you Reese.....Shame on you Ownership, for letting Reese do this.....we had a franchise qb that was on the verge of being an elite one.....and you failed him....if you gave him an OL, and weapons, he could have won with weak/average defenses....instead, they never had a plan....they did a patchwork job of fixing things....they tried to repeat, instead of rebuild.....they bought a clock, instead of an OL.....Eli has put up good numbers.....but you took a part of him, that prevented him from "reaching his potential".....maybe that was a poor choice of words, on the OP's part, but you all know what he was trying to say.....
But besides that, Eli's worst attribute is also his best; he will take chances with the football. He'll attempt throws the majority of passers won't even dream of. The greatness of Eli is that he will sometimes complete them, and they turn out to be iconic plays in his career. The opposite of that is that sometimes they lead to devastating turnovers that end the game or put the game out of reach. The problem is that many fans will attribute the positive outcomes to luck (i.e. the Helmet Catch), and attribute the negative outcomes to mediocrity or worse.
For whatever reason, people seem to put way more stock into anything negatively related to Eli than to anything positive. And in no way am I saying the guy is infallible, because he isn't, but whatever faults he's had has all been worth it for me. The dude has given Giants fans some of the greatest sports moments in their lives, he's an absolute New York sports icon, yet he's generally looked at as a problem. It's sad and a shame, because he really does deserve better.
But this also leads to another great trait for Eli, which extends beyond the football field: he doesn't ever seem to be bothered by what people think of him. He's always been a stand up guy and will take the blame, when his line breaks down, when his receivers hang him out to dry, when his defense decides to do their best paper mache impression after yet another 4th quarter comeback. He'll bear the cross and never point the finger at anyone else. If I was a player I'd love to play with somebody like that, as opposed to any number of whiny QB's that will throw you under the bus.
If I'm being honest, I never thought it would be true, but Eli has become my favorite athlete, even more so than Jeter. And in due time, when his career is over, I'm sure the lot of us will look back and remember just how great he is/was.
Great post!
More to the point, some of his best play has already been seen. As more opportunities come up, its more likely to see his play revert his carreer norms.
What point is going "more to the point"?
You do realize that Eli's last couple seasons have been his best statistically, right? What regression to the mean is expected?
He also makes some great throws (that never should have been thrown) that work out well.
But, drkenneth is right that discussion has gone down the tubes on BBI (not that it was ever consistently good in the past). trolls, dupes, and allowing abhorrent behavior by some of the regulars has caused degeneration of the corner. regardless of how he phrased it, it's a valid criticism that it's a sketchy decision whether to pay for this setup, especially when the ads are getting more and more annoying/intrusive.
Re Eli throwing bad picks, less publicized of course, but so do Aaron Rodgers, Ben, Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, Joe Flaccoand Other SB participants. I would name Matt Ryan and Rivers, but they're not yet SB QBs..
it is the frequency of interceptions that matters and Eli is significantly higher (202) than his 2004 class Big Ben (151) and Rivers (135) in picks.
As interceptions/turnovers are a key determinant of whether a team wins, it is not surprising that Big Ben (.669) and Rivers (.571) have higher regular season winning percentages than Eli (.532).
fair or not, when you are the #1 overall QB in a draft with 2 other QBs taken high, and an older brother who was also a former #1 overall pick, you are going to be compared against them and not against the cutlers, tannehills and cousins of the world.
And Rodgers never played in the offense Manning played in...no one is saying Manning is better or Rodgers is better. All most were saying is all QB'S throw picks at times. Any discussion of Manning brings out the he sucks or he can do no wrong factions. It's good to remember he is an outstanding QB with warts.
Quote:
More to the point, some of his best play has already been seen. As more opportunities come up, its more likely to see his play revert his carreer norms.
What point is going "more to the point"?
You do realize that Eli's last couple seasons have been his best statistically, right? What regression to the mean is expected?
His "clutch" play. The two playoff runs and superbowl MVPs werre unbelievable performances. He overall body of work does not match that level. As clutch is poorly defined talent, it is likely that his performance in pressure situations will match overall performance. Reversion to the mean.
It doesn't matter what his stats say in 2016; his relative ability compared to the league hasn't really changed.
This is one of the dumbest thought out threads I ever read.
leads the league in fumbles since 2006 with 121
I can live with INTs downfield, but when you get intercepted on a pass that is going for less than five yards, that's terrible. Happens way too much to Eli
if he takes care of the ball, he is as good as anybody in the league. But until that happens, he is not in the same category as guys like Brady
So he's not in the category of the guy who is arguably the greatest quarterback ever.
I can live with that.
Did that game knock us out of the playoff picture?...is Eli retiring this season?...if he doesn't win another Superbowl do you really feel his career was short-changed?
If you answered "yes" to any of the above questions, then here is the deal with you...
you're a chucklehead.
That's what I remember.
A lot of these guys get blown up by their stats, because people don't watch their games, they watch their highlights and fantasy numbers. I think Rodgers is one of them. Sure, he's great. But in the context of games, he's not as great as a lot of people make him out to be. In fact, he's been struggling for awhile now. And yeah, people will post his stats here and say "if that's struggling, I'll take that all day". But in the context of the actual story of each individual game, stats aren't getting results.
Or...
"A guy making that much money has to hit that throw 100% of the time, 'so and so' would."
That's just not true. When you watch the games, everybody misses throws all the time. Even the best.
Brady missed Wes Welker on a throw that would have been a dagger in the Superbowl against us.
Aaron Rodgers overthrough a wide open Jordy Nelson for a TD on the first drive against us in the 2011 divisional round. Had to settle for 3 instead of 7.
And those are just on a big stage. They miss throws like that routinely every game in the regular season.
They throw game ending INT's like Rodgers did last week.
Perception is not reality.
His "relative ability". If his stats put him in the Top 5, that wouldn't differ than if it put him in the To 15?
Just another convoluted way to bash eli I guess.
"Even if he has great stats, it doesn't mean shit!"
Or...
"A guy making that much money has to hit that throw 100% of the time, 'so and so' would."
That's just not true. When you watch the games, everybody misses throws all the time. Even the best.
Brady missed Wes Welker on a throw that would have been a dagger in the Superbowl against us.
Aaron Rodgers overthrough a wide open Jordy Nelson for a TD on the first drive against us in the 2011 divisional round. Had to settle for 3 instead of 7.
And those are just on a big stage. They miss throws like that routinely every game in the regular season.
They throw game ending INT's like Rodgers did last week.
Perception is not reality.
eli played lights out in the playoffs in 2011 - it's because we know he is capable of that we are disappointed we can't see that level of play consistently.
Quote:
"Oh, that quarterback or this quarterback NEVER misses THAT throw (that Eli had just missed or intercepted."
Or...
"A guy making that much money has to hit that throw 100% of the time, 'so and so' would."
That's just not true. When you watch the games, everybody misses throws all the time. Even the best.
Brady missed Wes Welker on a throw that would have been a dagger in the Superbowl against us.
Aaron Rodgers overthrough a wide open Jordy Nelson for a TD on the first drive against us in the 2011 divisional round. Had to settle for 3 instead of 7.
And those are just on a big stage. They miss throws like that routinely every game in the regular season.
They throw game ending INT's like Rodgers did last week.
Perception is not reality.
again, it's not that other QBs don't miss throws throw picks or fumble. it's that eli does it in significantly higher frequencies than other QBs who he will always be compared to as a #1 overall pick, fair or not. and yes it has a bottom line impact on team wins which as I posted above, eli is flirting with 500 in the regular season.
eli played lights out in the playoffs in 2011 - it's because we know he is capable of that we are disappointed we can't see that level of play consistently.
Can you prove that they miss plays on a regular basis. And basing it on wins and losses on INTS and ignoring the other 100 factors proves an agenda and not fact.
Quote:
In comment 13146455 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
"Oh, that quarterback or this quarterback NEVER misses THAT throw (that Eli had just missed or intercepted."
Or...
"A guy making that much money has to hit that throw 100% of the time, 'so and so' would."
That's just not true. When you watch the games, everybody misses throws all the time. Even the best.
Brady missed Wes Welker on a throw that would have been a dagger in the Superbowl against us.
Aaron Rodgers overthrough a wide open Jordy Nelson for a TD on the first drive against us in the 2011 divisional round. Had to settle for 3 instead of 7.
And those are just on a big stage. They miss throws like that routinely every game in the regular season.
They throw game ending INT's like Rodgers did last week.
Perception is not reality.
again, it's not that other QBs don't miss throws throw picks or fumble. it's that eli does it in significantly higher frequencies than other QBs who he will always be compared to as a #1 overall pick, fair or not. and yes it has a bottom line impact on team wins which as I posted above, eli is flirting with 500 in the regular season.
eli played lights out in the playoffs in 2011 - it's because we know he is capable of that we are disappointed we can't see that level of play consistently.
Can you prove that they miss plays on a regular basis. And basing it on wins and losses on INTS and ignoring the other 100 factors proves an agenda and not fact.
And lose a SB on an INT from your the Pats' 1 yardline with less than a minute to play
INTs or defensive ranks?
THAT we can agree on
He was tied around 8th in '14 and '15 and in the 30's in '13.
Quote:
It doesn't matter what his stats say in 2016; his relative ability compared to the league hasn't really changed.
His "relative ability". If his stats put him in the Top 5, that wouldn't differ than if it put him in the To 15?
Just another convoluted way to bash eli I guess.
"Even if he has great stats, it doesn't mean shit!"
I don't think stats mean much for this discussion. Its about his failure in a situation where we were hoping for success. The situation is by definition a small sample. He's been great in those situations. Better than his overall performance. Two options: Either you believe he is "clutch" or you have some reasonable understanding that he will not always have success like he has in the past. Over the course of his career, his play in pressure or "clutch" will approach that of his overall play.
Why you think that is bashing Eli, I have no idea.
This proves nothing other than stats can always be cherry picked and the past is the past and has little to do with what the future brings.
That's what this boils down to. Eli didn't win the game in the end and people are going nuts that this signals some sort of watershed moment where he's going to drop off a cliff in his ability to put the team on his back. Despite little evidence to the contrary.
Stats aren't pertinent to the discussion apparently because they don't fit the narrative. I guess his 4th quarter comeback stats are just bullshit too.
This proves nothing other than stats can always be cherry picked and the past is the past and has little to do with what the future brings.
Cherry-picking stats are one of the few major annoyances on here(aside from trolls and out-of-the-woodwork naysayers) and the main reason I pay little attention to, other than W-L records and the major injuries that may have affected them
2. Despite his two game winning drives to start the year, the one from last week is more of a norm for how he usually does.
disproportionately high fumbles and INTs relative to his peers are the flip side of sublime Eli which we saw in the playoffs.
You micro-analyze the sh-t out of him. I get it. But don't think you can compare his entire snap count to a handful of plays you saw of another guy in a highlight or stat sheet.
disproportionately high fumbles and INTs relative to his peers are the flip side of sublime Eli which we saw in the playoffs.
And your defense not getting off the field also limits your offense's chance to make plays and score points. The first game at Dallas is a pure example where we had the ball for 23 minutes. Like SB 25 and 46 where the defense gets the accolades, however the offense staying on the field for 40 minutes limited the opportunities for the better offenses.
If you are going to try and argue that Pittsburgh and the Giants have had similar defense throughout ben and eli's career, you will look ridiculous.
The offense had the ball for 20 minutes, scored three TD's on every trip to the red zone and Eli had 3TD passes. But people see a 20-19 score and complain that the offense was subpar.
Some have said Eli's played three poor games (one poster actually said 3 horrendous games). So I'm not really sure there's any sort of semblance of logic when it comes to discussing things.
I can hear it now: "Eli didn't even lead the team to a single TD! You think players like Ben Roethlisberger would do that?"
I noticed you dont include sacks in your negative plays. So does Eli get credit for being sacked 30 some less times than Rivers and over 130 less than Big ben despite playing more games than them?
The offense had the ball for 20 minutes, scored three TD's on every trip to the red zone and Eli had 3TD passes. But people see a 20-19 score and complain that the offense was subpar.
Some have said Eli's played three poor games (one poster actually said 3 horrendous games). So I'm not really sure there's any sort of semblance of logic when it comes to discussing things.
This is why I dont care what anyone who says thing about me and Eli anymore. There was a poster who said he played poor and another poster who said he was inaccurate in the saints game after a tweet came out and said 39 of the 41 throws hit the WRs in the hands. Doesnt get much poorer than that.
I can hear it now: "Eli didn't even lead the team to a single TD! You think players like Ben Roethlisberger would do that?"
The Giants did lose to the Eagles like that, in each of the past 2 seasons, at turning points. I think Manning had a TD in 1 of the games (but overall a terrible game) and 0 in the other.
The Eagles own the Giants. Manning, for all his accomplishments, has not had a great career against Philadelphia. 2011 Cruz game and Plax comeback 2 exceptions. 0-2 in the post-season and a lopsided losing record overall.
That being said, there have been games where the rest of the team was not playing well and we needed Eli to elevate his play to pull the team through for a win. It may be unfair to him, but any mistake by Eli in those situations combined with all of the other crap by the rest of the team (penalties, turnovers, special teams breakdowns, poor defense) means we most likely will not win that day.
So, that really is not much of a negative against Eli. There are not many QBs who have played in the league who are special enough to be able to overcome a crumbling team around them and make lemonade out of lemons.
Quote:
on Sunday? Without even one offensive TD?
I can hear it now: "Eli didn't even lead the team to a single TD! You think players like Ben Roethlisberger would do that?"
The Giants did lose to the Eagles like that, in each of the past 2 seasons, at turning points. I think Manning had a TD in 1 of the games (but overall a terrible game) and 0 in the other.
The Eagles own the Giants. Manning, for all his accomplishments, has not had a great career against Philadelphia. 2011 Cruz game and Plax comeback 2 exceptions. 0-2 in the post-season and a lopsided losing record overall.
And I'm sure the quote I made up about that was tossed around in some capacity after those, no doubt.
The point is, again, it happens to everybody.
Quote:
Aaron Rodgers has never thrown 15 INTs in any season. Eli has done it seven times.
And Rodgers never played in the offense Manning played in...no one is saying Manning is better or Rodgers is better. All most were saying is all QB'S throw picks at times. Any discussion of Manning brings out the he sucks or he can do no wrong factions. It's good to remember he is an outstanding QB with warts.
Rodgers never played in the offense that Eli has played in? Have you forgotten who our HC is and where he came from?
The basis of my criticism of Eli is that he's far too mistake-prone. Conservative to a fault and also far aggressive in situations and sets/routes where it was too risky a choice. Frankly it's maddening how inconsistent he is in his play and decision making.
The response from the sycophants has been that other good/great QBs make as many, if not more mistakes; that's simply false.
That's not to say that I don't appreciate what a professional demeanor and success he's brought to NY. But that isn't enough to appease super fans dep, et al. If you don't speak glowingly of Eli at all times and work 24/7 to deflect valid criticisms, then you're simply a bad fan, unappreciative, or stupid.
Fuck that.
I love when people call me a super fan after acknowledging he didnt play well against Washington and the INT against Dallas was his fault. But whatever to drive their pointless rambling about how throwing it to wide open guys is a "bad decision".
This notion that because he's won two SBs, he should be exempt from critique is absurd.