(he does), on the surface, I wonder why we would suggest moving him inside to another footwork and technique role, asking him to do things he probably hasn't been coached to do like pull and trap.
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
I wasn't sure if the automatic response of "move him to RT" was the most sound on its surface. I guess it is. And personally, I hope they do that. I think getting Beatty back on the field is paramount then.
It's unbelieveable the Giants
prdave73 : 2:16 am : link : reply
coaching staff have not made this happen by now.
It is very possible that this is now the plan. The holdup could be waiting for Beatty to get into football shape. Flowers certainly has the strength and size to be a mauling RT. It's all technique or mental with him. He has been shit against any kind of speed so far.
Usually you do that with guys that don't have the feet for LT.
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
Usually you do that with guys that don't have the feet for LT.
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
It is comments like this that make me realize that I know very little about the game of football in the trenches; I appreciate your post. As I read these posts about Flowers, it seems like there is a real discordance. Sometimes he is a punishing physical presence, but other times he is just raw and does not use his obvious gifts. What you say sounds eminently coachable? I wonder what is going on.
I'd start getting Flowers familiar with RT in practice. Wouldn't move him from LT just yet but when I'd make him move to RT it would be less unfamiliar. If Beatty was ready to go he'd be in at RT now. That should help him get back to game speed and if Flowers continues to struggle in a few weeks I'd make the flip.
He isn't quick enough off the snap to deal with speedy interior rushers. He was outstanding vs. the Vikings and a shit show vs. the Packers, that is all technique and temperament based. He's clearly a high emotion player, it's focusing that instead of letting his anger get the better of him. If he plays under control he's fine but he doesn't do that often enough. The issue is that in run blocking he needs to be nasty so it's a mental issue for him at the moment. This team needs a yoga instructor or something to get these hot headed youngsters under control.
Can't wait to draft another DE and maybe HB in Rounds 1 and 2. Oh wait, they need another DT b/c Hankins can't get any push.
Just amazing
Rewind to bad decisions, Reese lets Linval walk for a CB who can't stay healthy. Then the hole left by Linval is shored up with a huge cash investment in Harrison. So if you had paid Linval, that $ could have gone to a premium OL this offseason. Our past mistakes are still haunting us and will for 2-3 more years.
I will just repeat what Pat Kirwan has said multiple times... Â
(he does), on the surface, I wonder why we would suggest moving him inside to another footwork and technique role, asking him to do things he probably hasn't been coached to do like pull and trap.
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
or at least that is what everybody on this site indicated last spring...
Everybody? Every single poster? All the lurkers? Every single individual? Seems like an iffy comment...
Fair enough...lets go with 40%.
As with most debates on BBI, 40% agree with the OP on how to fix an issue...40% disagree...10% restate the issue...and the final 10% just call him a moron.
Ideally, he'd be a Ron Stone-type mauler. About the same size. Or maybe Carl Nicks, ex-Pro Bowl G for the Saints. Or Greg Robinson former top 5 pick of the Rams.
His poor footwork would be much less of an issue inside, where he doesn't have to block NFL DE's in space. I think it's the obvious move, the problem is, you'd either have to bench him or completely re-shuffle the line-up, because neither Pugh nor Jerry deserve to be benched. Pugh could go back to RT with Beatty stepping in.
It would suck to re-shuffle midseason but Eli is getting killed and his confidence is shot. You went out of your way to draft a versatile player in Pugh, you may as well use it to your advantage.
RE: If you believe that Flowers has an issue with footwork and technique Â
(he does), on the surface, I wonder why we would suggest moving him inside to another footwork and technique role, asking him to do things he probably hasn't been coached to do like pull and trap.
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
he is slow out of his stance. I dont see him playing tackle for much longer. He has no knee bend any speed rusher blows right by him. At guard, he would be stout because he has a really strong base and is a powerful man. We are not utilizing his strength properly. He can be a mauler at guard
RE: RE: I don't know what people are expecting from the move to RT Â
Usually you do that with guys that don't have the feet for LT.
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
It is comments like this that make me realize that I know very little about the game of football in the trenches; I appreciate your post. As I read these posts about Flowers, it seems like there is a real discordance. Sometimes he is a punishing physical presence, but other times he is just raw and does not use his obvious gifts. What you say sounds eminently coachable? I wonder what is going on.
I think what's going on is that Flowers has just not improved in these areas since he came into the league.
One of the knocks on him coming out of college was his raw technique, especially his hands, and the rumors that he was kind of uncoachable in that regard.
The Giants (and Chris Snee who helped evaluate him) thought that these were correctable issues with the right coaching, but so far it seems like the progress is very slow.
So either the rumors are true and he doesn't take the coaching very well or he just needs more time to improve in these areas.
On the other hand, I think his footwork is way better than last year, although not perfect. You can really see that his power and overall strength is on another level compared to last year, and it helps him out in some situations.
Maybe games like these are a wakeup call for him and help him focus on the areas he needs to improve in. But i really believe that he has the talent to be a stud LT for us.
Jerry and Pugh have done commendable jobs at Guard Â
this year. Would you replace Jerry with him at RG? I suppose you could do that as Flowers is probably going to be a better run blocker, but at this point, Jerry is probably still the guy. Flowers moving to Guard would have to happen next year IMO. He'd need a whole off-season to get his act together and practice there. I'm also not so sure the Giants would move him to RT this year. It would be easier for him, but he'd have to reverse his stance, footwork, etc. Perhaps it could be something to look at during the Bye week. I could see him at least playing LT for the next few games before the Bye and then possibly inserting Beatty. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. I also hope they don't consider putting Newhouse back in the lineup. He was worse then Hart!
So if Flowers moves to RT, all of a sudden he's going to stop Â
putting his face into blocks and taking proper sets?
Not gonna happen. Eli will just be able to see the guy coming at him.
Flowers pass pro technique right now is DOG SHIT. I am becoming seriously concerned about that "uncoachable" label that was whispered around draft time. With a full season as an NFL starter, a full offseason and time with (allegedly) quality OL coaching, Flowers' pass pro is still at the high school level. It's maddening and it's a serious problem.
but their evaluation of Flowers, after for weeks (not including DB game) was he was the most improved player in the league, and actually playing very, very well.
I'd find it hard to believe the Giants are going to move him at this point........he had a very poor second half on Sunday.
Are we jumping the gun??? I'll admit too I was calling for Beatty at LT and Flowers to RT.....but are we over reacting?
Prior to GB, he was not getting sacked. Against Minny, which has a great DL, there was little to no pressure given up, especially by Flowers. And we actually ran the ball pretty well considering the Minny D. Now obviously some of that is affected by Eli's release and the Cover 2 D being played, but this whole idea that Eli is getting killed is BS. He's been sacked 10 times in 5 games, which is 13th best in the NFL. So let's not make this into he's getting Dave Browned or David Carred
Move flowers to right tackle. The position he was drafted to play. When we had a healthy Beatty Flowers was the right tackle then all of a sudden beatty gets hurt and now we cant move flowers away from the left tackle position.
RE: So if Flowers moves to RT, all of a sudden he's going to stop Â
putting his face into blocks and taking proper sets?
Not gonna happen. Eli will just be able to see the guy coming at him.
Flowers pass pro technique right now is DOG SHIT. I am becoming seriously concerned about that "uncoachable" label that was whispered around draft time. With a full season as an NFL starter, a full offseason and time with (allegedly) quality OL coaching, Flowers' pass pro is still at the high school level. It's maddening and it's a serious problem.
As Shaun O'Hara referred to him on the MSG postgame on Sunday, Flowers is a "coach killer."
I definitely think there has been an over reaction to the GB game. Flowers has greatly improved. I also want to note that one of the sacks given up by Flowers was not his fault in my opinion. He has Matthews locked down. When Eli stepped up, he essentially stepped right in the path of Matthews. Now Flowers did give up two bad sacks and both reflected poor footwork, but aside from that, I think he was pretty good. Maybe a C.
The problem is that a narrative starts with the media and fans and they all want to stick with it instead of closely examining what is actually happening
Move flowers to right tackle. The position he was drafted to play. When we had a healthy Beatty Flowers was the right tackle then all of a sudden beatty gets hurt and now we cant move flowers away from the left tackle position.
I wonder if Flowers career is headed down the same road as Leonard Davis.
He too was never able to develop into a career tackle he was drafted to be, but found a Pro Bowl/All-Pro home at guard, but not until a few years into his career when the Cardinals gave up on him and the Cowboys signed him and put him at LG where he eventually found success.
it will work wonders for the kid to let him play smash mouth a bit Â
he said Flaherty was fired due to Flowers' poor play last year. Now O'Hara says another coach will most likely get canned after this year based upon his play.
I will say this though, the rest of the O-line was not performing either. So, maybe Flaherty should have been fired.
I don't know. He was horrid at GB, his worst game as a Giant, but i Â
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
RE: I don't know. He was horrid at GB, his worst game as a Giant, but i Â
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
That's where I'm coming from. I just always hear: it's either LT or RT. I wasn't sure whether there was any particular reason guard wasn't a possibility since a solid middle might be better for the run and pocket integrity, and Flowers is said to be bad in space. I'm still in the wait-and-see phase on the season.
RE: I don't know. He was horrid at GB, his worst game as a Giant, but i Â
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
.
I think the some point will be by season's end, this organization has to make a decision. You can't as an organization roll into year 3 with Flowers at LT, if there
are doubts about him. I don't think they would move him to RT until next year if they do it, don't see it during the season. I don't know where this coach killer stuff came from, not sure I buy those rumors. Beatty is just a stop gap
at this point, and he can't even beat out Hart.
you can't bury a bad OT by moving him to the right side Â
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
prdave73 : 2:16 am : link : reply
coaching staff have not made this happen by now.
It is very possible that this is now the plan. The holdup could be waiting for Beatty to get into football shape. Flowers certainly has the strength and size to be a mauling RT. It's all technique or mental with him. He has been shit against any kind of speed so far.
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
...it'll be up by 4pm next Sunday
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
It is comments like this that make me realize that I know very little about the game of football in the trenches; I appreciate your post. As I read these posts about Flowers, it seems like there is a real discordance. Sometimes he is a punishing physical presence, but other times he is just raw and does not use his obvious gifts. What you say sounds eminently coachable? I wonder what is going on.
Just amazing
Just amazing
Kirwan has said several times that the Giants should trade for Joe Thomas or should definitely be one of the teams going after him.
Just amazing
need a TE, good blocking TE's can diminish a lot of the chaos we see
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
^This.
Everybody? Every single poster? All the lurkers? Every single individual? Seems like an iffy comment...
Quote:
or at least that is what everybody on this site indicated last spring...
Everybody? Every single poster? All the lurkers? Every single individual? Seems like an iffy comment...
Fair enough...lets go with 40%.
As with most debates on BBI, 40% agree with the OP on how to fix an issue...40% disagree...10% restate the issue...and the final 10% just call him a moron.
His poor footwork would be much less of an issue inside, where he doesn't have to block NFL DE's in space. I think it's the obvious move, the problem is, you'd either have to bench him or completely re-shuffle the line-up, because neither Pugh nor Jerry deserve to be benched. Pugh could go back to RT with Beatty stepping in.
It would suck to re-shuffle midseason but Eli is getting killed and his confidence is shot. You went out of your way to draft a versatile player in Pugh, you may as well use it to your advantage.
RT seems well suited to him. He has the size and length to play tackle. I don't really know how well he'd do inside. It would certainly be a different adjustment playing in tighter space with his size.
he is slow out of his stance. I dont see him playing tackle for much longer. He has no knee bend any speed rusher blows right by him. At guard, he would be stout because he has a really strong base and is a powerful man. We are not utilizing his strength properly. He can be a mauler at guard
Quote:
Usually you do that with guys that don't have the feet for LT.
His footwork is fine, what's killing him at times is his uncontrolled punch/hand placement and leaning into the opponent.
That's going to be a problem in the future no matter what position he plays.
It is comments like this that make me realize that I know very little about the game of football in the trenches; I appreciate your post. As I read these posts about Flowers, it seems like there is a real discordance. Sometimes he is a punishing physical presence, but other times he is just raw and does not use his obvious gifts. What you say sounds eminently coachable? I wonder what is going on.
I think what's going on is that Flowers has just not improved in these areas since he came into the league.
One of the knocks on him coming out of college was his raw technique, especially his hands, and the rumors that he was kind of uncoachable in that regard.
The Giants (and Chris Snee who helped evaluate him) thought that these were correctable issues with the right coaching, but so far it seems like the progress is very slow.
So either the rumors are true and he doesn't take the coaching very well or he just needs more time to improve in these areas.
On the other hand, I think his footwork is way better than last year, although not perfect. You can really see that his power and overall strength is on another level compared to last year, and it helps him out in some situations.
Maybe games like these are a wakeup call for him and help him focus on the areas he needs to improve in. But i really believe that he has the talent to be a stud LT for us.
Not gonna happen. Eli will just be able to see the guy coming at him.
Flowers pass pro technique right now is DOG SHIT. I am becoming seriously concerned about that "uncoachable" label that was whispered around draft time. With a full season as an NFL starter, a full offseason and time with (allegedly) quality OL coaching, Flowers' pass pro is still at the high school level. It's maddening and it's a serious problem.
I'd find it hard to believe the Giants are going to move him at this point........he had a very poor second half on Sunday.
Are we jumping the gun??? I'll admit too I was calling for Beatty at LT and Flowers to RT.....but are we over reacting?
Not gonna happen. Eli will just be able to see the guy coming at him.
Flowers pass pro technique right now is DOG SHIT. I am becoming seriously concerned about that "uncoachable" label that was whispered around draft time. With a full season as an NFL starter, a full offseason and time with (allegedly) quality OL coaching, Flowers' pass pro is still at the high school level. It's maddening and it's a serious problem.
As Shaun O'Hara referred to him on the MSG postgame on Sunday, Flowers is a "coach killer."
The problem is that a narrative starts with the media and fans and they all want to stick with it instead of closely examining what is actually happening
Pugh/topFA/Richburg\secondFA\Flowers
so many self appointed guard dogs here said "Flowers is the OLT for life" as if it was written on a fuching tablet on the fuching burning bush.
Now you want him at right guard? holy moly people.
I wonder if Flowers career is headed down the same road as Leonard Davis.
He too was never able to develop into a career tackle he was drafted to be, but found a Pro Bowl/All-Pro home at guard, but not until a few years into his career when the Cardinals gave up on him and the Cowboys signed him and put him at LG where he eventually found success.
It may be more doable at right side?
Funny, I don't remember hearing Jerrys name on Sunday, maybe the troll was right? holy crap.
world turned upside down hashtag funny
They did not intend to draft a right guard at 10
I will say this though, the rest of the O-line was not performing either. So, maybe Flaherty should have been fired.
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
That's where I'm coming from. I just always hear: it's either LT or RT. I wasn't sure whether there was any particular reason guard wasn't a possibility since a solid middle might be better for the run and pocket integrity, and Flowers is said to be bad in space. I'm still in the wait-and-see phase on the season.
If he has to be moved at some point, so be it, but I wouldn't rush into it just yet. And I don't subscribe the "you can't take a "name the pos" at #9" theory. You just have to take a great whatever it is. or at minimum a long term solution. If he ends up being a great LT, or RT or RG i don't care so long as it's one of them.
I think the some point will be by season's end, this organization has to make a decision. You can't as an organization roll into year 3 with Flowers at LT, if there
are doubts about him. I don't think they would move him to RT until next year if they do it, don't see it during the season. I don't know where this coach killer stuff came from, not sure I buy those rumors. Beatty is just a stop gap
at this point, and he can't even beat out Hart.